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I don't understand why you said no when you agreed with me.
I've been thinking about it a bit... and I don't think what Renn said about Nolan and Smith's approach to editing the film is complete BS anymore. I'm still of the mind that the editing in this film was born out of them doing their damnedest to cut this jumble of a film down to a manageable length. And there's nothing wrong with that. A move made out of necessity can definitely result in great things.
So it comes down to me just not jiving with the choice they made on this movie.
Here's an example of the kind of cutting that bugged me throughout the film: that scene in which Bruce visits the hospital in order to meet with Gordon in the very same ski-mask he first introduced himself with in Batman Begins (I just realized... hahah):
Bruce uses his cane as a gadget to zip line down to Gordon's room. We see him start this process like a heist movie and we see jump down the side of the building. But just as suddenly, we're already in Gordon's room in which he's already saying the lines we saw in the first teaser for the movie with Bruce already fully situated in the room. It's a jarring cut. Now this wouldn't bug me too much if it was an isolated incident, but I felt like the whole movie was making cuts like this in between scenes. It's like they decided to drop transitions.
Now here is where I give credence to Renn's INCEPTION editing theory (which he admitted was something he was just hashing out at the time): this is Nolan (for whatever reason) trying to push the limits of how much transition an audience needs to go from scene to scene. We're already used to characters starting conversations in one scene and finishing as they arrive at their destination. We don't need to see characters enter and leave a room in every scene. This is the dream-like cutting of cinema being pushed further.
But when so much of the movie was cut this way, I felt it really cut into the drama which made me less able to engage with the story. It felt like it was being done in an arbitrary manner (to cut the runtime down). I also think it clashes with the sense of grandiose importance and scope that Nolan tries to give these movies.
I don't understand why you said no when you agreed with me.
I meant it as a conversational flourish/figure of speech; not an actual 'no', more short for 'No, you're right'. I guess I have a tendency to type conversationally now and again.
Oh haha my bad.
I'm sure it's been mentioned, but I want to give a little love to the "Son, you're in for a show tonight" line. Usually Nolan giving cops little lines like that to spout off is BRUTAL bad. But that one gave me chills. Kind of a "Hey audience. Audience. Hey. It's the fucking BATMAN" and then everyone gets out of their chairs and goes YAAAAAAAAAAY!
Oh haha my bad.
I'm sure it's been mentioned, but I want to give a little love to the "Son, you're in for a show tonight" line. Usually Nolan giving cops little lines like that to spout off is BRUTAL bad.
They were playing The Dark Knight on TNT all weekend, and I literally had to mute the TV during the semi-truck chase. Nicky Katt, godfuckingdamn.
Is that a BAZOOKA?!?!!?!?
They were playing The Dark Knight on TNT all weekend, and I literally had to mute the TV during the semi-truck chase. Nicky Katt, godfuckingdamn.
Ha ha ha. Never knew until now, but I guess Katt is sneaking into Nolan recurring territory since he was in Insomnia and The Dark Knight.
Do we go to movies to experience drama and be told stories? Or to just have information thrown at us? Nolan has walked this line amazingly well in INCEPTION. This movie just felt like the other end of this approach. It just felt like being a grocery list of information (with several moments of legitimate drama popping up from the mess).
What the eff Nooj, quit playing games with my heart. Is it opposite day in your neck of the woods or something? Only for a couple of short moments in Rises did I feel any of that - not grocery lists but post-its. Napkin scrawlings maybe.
INCEXPOSITION though? Drowned in the stuff.
Not the kind of dialogue you're really talking about but speaking of BRUTAL, every word out of Aidan Gillen's mouth in the opening scene once Bane was revealed had me ready to cringe so far back I was almost in the lap of the person behind me.
It's a miracle I had such a good time with this movie after such a shit-in-the-entrée moment to kick this sucker off.
Yeah, Gordon should immediately know what he's talking about -- after all, it's only been 29 or so years.
Not too mention he might have been, y'know, slightly dazed and confused, what with the near death experiences he's just had and seeing Batman fly off to his certain death.
That's one thing we should keep in mind when it comes to movies like this. We may be intensely familiar with the previous movies, but many people aren't. That's a good reminder, because I also thought we didn't need to see that recall of Gordon putting the coat on young Bruce Wayne.
I remain shocked by the number of people who haven't seen BEGINS yet (and most of them have seen TDK). I have to wonder if part of this film not breaking down every single record has to do with it heavily referencing BEGINS. Even with the onscreen flashbacks, I think this film really needs a good working knowledge of BEGINS to be enjoyed and appreciated.
One my buddies from the second viewing on Sat. night still hasn't seen either film!
That Gordan moment drove me crazy! I got the reference because I had seen BB recently, but I liked the flashback. It's a wonderful moment in BB and I think literally seeing young Bruce in that moment works.
Gordan then essentially going "Huuuuwhuuuuu?" not only insults the audience it makes Gordan look buffoonish. Especially, considering (thank you Nooj) that in this Gotham a young orphan figured it out by looking at him (or into his soul or whatever).
I know this is just fan wank but I desperately wanted him to say something like "Give me some credit, Bruce" Anything other than "Bruce...Waaaynne?!" *
And even if you are having Gordan be clueless, trust in Gary fucking Oldman to sell it wordlessly.
*I know that moaning about this is like complaining about Clarke Kent's glasses but in this moment, it just irked me.
Also...
I think people just stop fighting and submit to this movie on second viewing.
They give up. Like Batman.
I can't believe so many people have an issue with Bruce Wayne getting a happy ending for once. Bunch of sadists, all of you.
From my experience, one of the hallmarks of actual bad films is that they get worse on repeated viewings, and not the other way round. Jesus people, it's completely your prerogative to not like the film but this 'You Drank The Second Round Of Kool-Aid' stuff is reaching a bit, don't you think?
"Kid's got a lovely voice." -favorite Bane line?
I know people have commented on this, but never particularly well to my taste? What does it serve the narrative to have Batman be retired for eight years? I've seen that it's important because we need a lessened Batman so that we can either fear Bane will break him, or that Bane can actually break him. Isn't any point at all made stronger if Bane breaks Batman while he's 100%? How much more effective is it to go in to the confrontation thinking he will win, and then having his back broken?
I know the Knightfall storyline has Bane taking him at his weakest, but that has hundreds of examples of Batman being nigh-godlike in his abilities to avoid being defeated. These movies don't have that. And in Knightfall, his weakening is because of the machinations of Bane. This just has him weakened from a year of crime fighting and eight years of sulking.
And remain perplexed by the geography and scope of Gotham City? This is a New York City sized city right? Or at least Manhattan sized? How does everyone get everywhere so quickly?
I know people have commented on this, but never particularly well to my taste? What does it serve the narrative to have Batman be retired for eight years? I've seen that it's important because we need a lessened Batman so that we can either fear Bane will break him, or that Bane can actually break him. Isn't any point at all made stronger if Bane breaks Batman while he's 100%? How much more effective is it to go in to the confrontation thinking he will win, and then having his back broken?
I know the Knightfall storyline has Bane taking him at his weakest, but that has hundreds of examples of Batman being nigh-godlike in his abilities to avoid being defeated. These movies don't have that. And in Knightfall, his weakening is because of the machinations of Bane. This just has him weakened from a year of crime fighting and eight years of sulking.
And remain perplexed by the geography and scope of Gotham City? This is a New York City sized city right? Or at least Manhattan sized? How does everyone get everywhere so quickly?
That's my only issue. Said it before, but I got compared to Harry Knowles, who is just an idiot. I didn't like that. It was lazy. They could have had him retire 3 years after Dent's death, due to a leg injury suffered while running from the cops. He could have just cut his nights back to one per week, and starting and ending in town without the vehicles, so as not to draw attention. Bruce Wayne, whose Nolan's interpretation of his character stuck almost identical to the comic, with the exception of endgame, would have fought harder to prevent another Rachel. His healing from his parents began when he left Gotham. He was obsessed with making sure no other child would have to experience the loss he did. So when he loses his love interest, he says fuck it, let this happen to everyone, or let someone else stop it. Sorry, it was lazy, and only there to make him weak ,which Bane breaking an overconfident Batman might have played better.
Other than that, and unlike Harry Knowles, I really enjoyed the film. I saw it twice already and am planning on a trip to 70mm Imax also. I would also rate it 8/10 on technicality (due to a lot of plot holes and a slower start than needed), but if you asked about total feelings when weighing in the grandiose scale, I would give it a 9/10.
It doesn't feel false to me, at all. It feels entirely earned thanks to the performances of Bale, Caine and Hathaway. I'm a huge Batman fan, and I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever truly given a shit about how Bruce Wayne was doing at the end of a Batman film. Writing it out like that is, of course, going to make it sound like refried bollocks, but that's not how it plays at all. You're bringing baggage from 70 years of comic book stories and using it to judge how Nolan's Batman concludes.
It doesn't feel false to me, at all. It feels entirely earned thanks to the performances of Bale, Caine and Hathaway. I'm a huge Batman fan, and I can honestly say this is the first time I've ever truly given a shit about how Bruce Wayne was doing at the end of a Batman film. Writing it out like that is, of course, going to make it sound like refried bollocks, but that's not how it plays at all. You're bringing baggage from 70 years of comic book stories and using it to judge how Nolan's Batman concludes.
Exactly!
This. I can by the heated romance between them (but don't think it would last, especially with her need for adrenaline)
I think the Selina here probably would want to settle down a little. You can tell she's getting a bit wary of "the life" (Hence her wanting the Clean Slate Program).
Her getting together with Bruce is fine by me. Their scenes together earlier show they are attracted to each other.
See? Bruce Wayne just needed a hot flirty girlfriend.
So in BATMAN: THE DARK KNIGHT DAWNS 4 YOU with JGL as Batman we will no doubt see a re-crimed Gotham due to the Dent Act being repealed, right? But Wayne is ok fucking around in Italy living off (I'm assuming) Hathway's criminal largess? That ending brings up a lot of new questions that I hope Len Wiseman is up to answering. /end sarcasm font.
Is it possible that Wayne's fortune was restored after proof of Bane's fraud scheme was established?
This might be veering into fan-fic territory, but I think the film would be improved by reversing the structure. Have Bane bust the prisoners out of Blackgate first thing. Forget about Miranda being a love interest and ally -- have her be Dagget, launching a ruthless but legal takeover of Wayne Industries. So you have Bruce being assaulted from both sides, as he battles Miranda's takeover by day and the released criminals and the cops by night. You could even still have the eight year retirement if you wanted; either way, the constant fighting is wearing him down mentally and physicallyl. Then you reveal Miranda and Bane at the midway point, Bane breaks Batman, and then you launch into the "we're freeing Gotham from the oppressors" angle.
What the eff Nooj, quit playing games with my heart. Is it opposite day in your neck of the woods or something? Only for a couple of short moments in Rises did I feel any of that - not grocery lists but post-its. Napkin scrawlings maybe.
INCEXPOSITION though? Drowned in the stuff.
No doubt that INCEPTION was an ocean of exposition. What I meant was that on first watch, most people were ready to have all that stuff explained since it was all so integral to the rules of the dream world. I make fun of the constant on-the-go exposition in that movie, but it WAS necessary.
TDKR has a lot of this stuff too, but a lot of it didn't feel as necessary since it was rarely building up to much of anything. It just felt like a lot of busy 'information' to make things feel more real and complicated than they actually were.
Also, Nicky Katt in TDK is a goddamned treasure. Anyone who doesn't believe is an OLD MAN AND A FOOL.
I'm jazzed that someone else appreciated this. The fact that Ra's Al Ghul's immortality (in the form of his child) emerges from a pit. How Nolan was able to adapt these characters to his films in ways that make sense but still pay respect to their comic book origins always impresses me.
Haters gonna hate, but this film is fucking good.
I'm jazzed that someone else appreciated this. The fact that Ra's Al Ghul's immortality (in the form of his child) emerges from a pit. How Nolan was able to adapt these characters to his films in ways that make sense but still pay respect to their comic book origins always impresses me.
Haters gonna hate, but this film is fucking good.
I also realized this. Agreed that Nolan has done an amazing job rolling in a shitload of Batman references and comic elements into his movies while also adapting and transforming them.
I like the movie a lot, but I can't support the phrase "haters gonna hate." Right there with "game-changer" on my Worst Phrases In The World list. Don't do that.
It feels false if you believe that Batman by his very nature has to always be an impossibly driven, brooding ubermensch, which has never really been Nolan's take. Yes, he fights to protect Gotham and to ensure that no child is orphaned like he is etc etc, but it's made patently clear in Nolan's films that being a symbol as extreme and dramatic as the Batman also invites escalation, and ultimately bringing on a heightened version of the same suffering that you can never fully protect people against. You run around in a costume and take extreme action against criminals, and the criminals do exactly the same to compete with you. He continued as the Batman and the result was Joker and Two-Face, both of whom presented greater threats than Gotham had ever faced before and dealt crippling blow to his personal life and personal manifesto respectively.
Well, in terms of threats both arguably pale against the League of Shadows, who of course long predated the Batman but who crucially taught him the power of symbols in influencing society. At first Wayne believes that the LoS are effective because they are extreme, but IMO he eventually figures out that much of their power comes from the fact that their actions are dramatic but brief; they've managed to maintain order because they don't stay visible long enough to give their enemies the chance to imitate them.
This leads into certain emotional truths that we all face as we get older, and which Wayne is forced to confront in Rises. Anyone who is driven by a work or a cause out of personal bereavement or isolation, as Wayne is, can come to feel that the cause is its own justification and actively push away emotional connections out of fear; fear of their own lack of these connections, and especially fear that this inner sorrow will distract them from the cause and deprive them of the one thing they feel they do have. Wayne has never really forgiven himself for his parents' death; in Begins he confesses to Alfred that he believes that their death was his fault, and Ra's calls him on this enduring guilt during his training. Wayne may believe that his learning to become cool with bats is him conquering his fear, but there's other stuff in his childhood that have affected him far more deeply and which he only indulges more deeply by putting on the suit.
While he has genuinely noble intentions in becoming the Batman, he also has deeply personal ones; he cannot grow and find emotional connection with others and forging his own life without coming to terms with his own guilt, and because of this he's scared shitless of forming close relationships. It can't be coincidence that he spends most of his life pining after a woman (Rachel) who's permanently unavailable. While Wayne's love for her is undoubtedly genuine, it's also a highly convenient fantasy he can play without the risk of it actually becoming true.
IMO the scene where Alfred quits in TDKR is the turning point for Wayne as a character. The film starts with him having pushed the world away farther than ever before, only now he feels he can't be the Batman a) because of the reduced need for him, and b) because of the fear of escalation. Of course, he quickly changes his mind once Bane shows up, and at first he's all too eager to whip the costume back on despite his injuries. However, more than his muscles have softened in the intervening years; he meets Selina, the woman who brings him out of his shell like nobody else has ever managed, and he loses Alfred. IMO what makes that scene so powerful is the fact that Wayne clearly realizes for the first time the true bond between he and Alfred, a relationship that he's never fully taken seriously but is vital and all-encompassing; that's why when he wakes up the next morning, the first thing he does is call for Alfred. These two men's lives are so deeply interwoven with each other, the idea of him being gone still hasn't registered with him the next day.
Wayne's at that point in life where we start to realize that the things we wish for, our parents wish for just as keenly. We may bullshit ourselves out of the things we never got to have through work or hubris, but it hurts our parents just as much and seeing that pain reminds us of what we've let slide. Alfred IS Wayne's father and has been since he was a child; like a father, he's supported him in his endeavours, even the ones that have turned out to do more damage than good, but as long as Wayne wraps himself up in his cause and his own angst Alfred feels every drop of what he lacks. In that scene he's hit with the truth of his own existence through Alfred's sorrow, and while it all takes a while to click - he does allow him to leave, after all - it's the moment of clarity that sends him on the course towards that ending. Alfred's story about the cafe dream isn't just a cute setup for a pre-credits callback; it's the truth of what Wayne really wants but has pushed himself away from, delivered with the power and rawness only a parent can supply.
Nolan's always approached Wayne as a study of a person who is driven and resourceful, but intrinsically damaged, and in emotional truth people like that ultimately have one of two options; evolve and heal, or stagnate and die. By killing the Batman, Wayne not only once and for all gives people that enduring and inspiring symbol he always wanted to provide (note how you never saw any Batman statues going up before), but also kills that guilt and isolationist fervour that has stayed with him since the murder of his parents, buried in that symbolic grave next to theirs. He's finally decided to accept that he deserves love, and not push it away. Even the line to Gordon about the coat speaks to his newfound willingness to recognize the care that has come to him, even in his darkest moments, and to give that back - even if it's just to say thanks.
You know what, the comic Batman can keep trucking along till the end of time and that's great; he works beautifully as an embodiment of principle. Nolan's films, however, are about understanding principle in the face of growing up.
I think the main problem with the narrative structure boils down to the leg injury. It would have been fine if Bruce had taken himself out of the game because he wasn't needed, but the leg injury gives the impression that he was physically put out of the game, which is something he has to overcome for real later. It just seems like an unnecessary detail that creates story redundancies.
A few days out and this is settling quite well with me. Seeing it for the second time Wednesday. Not a perfect film, perhaps the weakest of the three, but I feel like it may be the strongest third part in a trilogy for me.
For those of us that don't have the Art Book, here's Nolan's goodbye letter to Batman from it:
This was from the foreword of the The Art and Making of The Dark Knight Trilogy book:
Alfred. Gordon. Lucius. Bruce . . . Wayne. Names that have come to mean so much to me. Today, I’m three weeks from saying a final good-bye to these characters and their world. It’s my son’s ninth birthday. He was born as the Tumbler was being glued together in my garage from random parts of model kits. Much time, many changes. A shift from sets where some gunplay or a helicopter were extraordinary events to working days where crowds of extras, building demolitions, or mayhem thousands of feet in the air have become familiar.
People ask if we’d always planned a trilogy. This is like being asked whether you had planned on growing up, getting married, having kids. The answer is complicated. When David and I first started cracking open Bruce’s story, we flirted with what might come after, then backed away, not wanting to look too deep into the future. I didn’t want to know everything that Bruce couldn’t; I wanted to live it with him. I told David and Jonah to put everything they knew into each film as we made it. The entire cast and crew put all they had into the first film. Nothing held back. Nothing saved for next time. They built an entire city. Then Christian and Michael and Gary and Morgan and Liam and Cillian started living in it. Christian bit off a big chunk of Bruce Wayne’s life and made it utterly compelling. He took us into a pop icon’s mind and never let us notice for an instant the fanciful nature of Bruce’s methods.
I never thought we’d do a second—how many good sequels are there? Why roll those dice? But once I knew where it would take Bruce, and when I started to see glimpses of the antagonist, it became essential. We re-assembled the team and went back to Gotham. It had changed in three years. Bigger. More real. More modern. And a new force of chaos was coming to the fore. The ultimate scary clown, as brought to terrifying life by Heath. We’d held nothing back, but there were things we hadn’t been able to do the first time out—a Batsuit with a flexible neck, shooting on Imax. And things we’d chickened out on—destroying the Batmobile, burning up the villain’s blood money to show a complete disregard for conventional motivation. We took the supposed security of a sequel as license to throw caution to the wind and headed for the darkest corners of Gotham.
I never thought we’d do a third—are there any great second sequels? But I kept wondering about the end of Bruce’s journey, and once David and I discovered it, I had to see it for myself. We had come back to what we had barely dared whisper about in those first days in my garage. We had been making a trilogy. I called everyone back together for another tour of Gotham. Four years later, it was still there. It even seemed a little cleaner, a little more polished. Wayne Manor had been rebuilt. Familiar faces were back—a little older, a little wiser . . . but not all was as it seemed.
Gotham was rotting away at its foundations. A new evil bubbling up from beneath. Bruce had thought Batman was not needed anymore, but Bruce was wrong, just as I had been wrong. The Batman had to come back. I suppose he always will.
Michael, Morgan, Gary, Cillian, Liam, Heath, Christian . . . Bale. Names that have come to mean so much to me. My time in Gotham, looking after one of the greatest and most enduring figures in pop culture, has been the most challenging and rewarding experience a filmmaker could hope for. I will miss the Batman. I like to think that he’ll miss me, but he’s never been particularly sentimental.
I like the movie a lot, but I can't support the phrase "haters gonna hate." Right there with "game-changer" on my Worst Phrases In The World list. Don't do that.
I'm right there with you, believe me. I was just fucking around, and poking the people who are down on the film.
You know what else needs to die? "Epic fail".
I think the Selina here probably would want to settle down a little. You can tell she's getting a bit wary of "the life" (Hence her wanting the Clean Slate Program).
Her getting together with Bruce is fine by me. Their scenes together earlier show they are attracted to each other.
Why would Batman forgive a criminal who was responsible for feeding him to Bane. That is one area the script completely ignored. Her face turn is certainly never earnt.
I also realized this. Agreed that Nolan has done an amazing job rolling in a shitload of Batman references and comic elements into his movies while also adapting and transforming them.
Yeah, that's something I definitely didn't catch onto. That's really cool.
Why would Batman forgive a criminal who was responsible for feeding him to Bane. That is one area the script completely ignored. Her face turn is certainly never earnt.
He fed himself to Bane. She was just saving her own skin.
You run around in a costume and take extreme action against criminals, and the criminals do exactly the same to compete with you. He continued as the Batman and the result was Joker and Two-Face, both of whom presented greater threats than Gotham had ever faced before and dealt crippling blow to his personal life and personal manifesto respectively.
But you could argue his giving up is what allowed Bane to come in and do what he did to Gotham. Nolan seems to be saying you can put the escalation genie back in the bottle, and I'm not sure it's that simple.
He fed himself to Bane. She was just saving her own skin.
How romantic of her to block off his escape route. Easily forgiven I guess.
How romantic of her to block off his escape route. Easily forgiven I guess.
Who said it was romantic? This is so weird. He spent five months in an underground prison rebuilding himself both mentally and physically, and she came to realise what a horror Gotham had become without his influence. She even obviously regretted having to do it when she first shuts him in. It's called character growth.
I'll never be happy without Catwoman and Juno riding into the sunset.
Who said it was romantic? This is so weird. He spent five months in an underground prison rebuilding himself both mentally and physically, and she came to realise what a horror Gotham had become without his influence. She even obviously regretted having to do it when she first shuts him in. It's called character growth.
I just didn't buy the fact he fell for her after the betrayal. It's a minor point, but the them getting together at the end seemed really forced.
Agree to disagree, I guess. Two damaged people connecting and realising the life they could enjoy together is better than that which they would have apart works for me. And Bruce's forgiveness and relationship with Selina is a handy metaphor for his acceptance that crime isn't a monolithic, black and white entity that he can beat down into the ground to obtain peace.
I'll never be happy without Catwoman and Juno riding into the sunset.
You're giving me the vapours.
Agree to disagree, I guess. Two damaged people connecting and realising the life they could enjoy together is better than that which they would have apart works for me. And Bruce's forgiveness and relationship with Selina is a handy metaphor for his acceptance that crime isn't a monolithic, black and white entity that he can beat down into the ground to obtain peace.
I agree fully. The comics pursued this strange love interest scenario many time, and the characters work together. Maybe they wouldn't work out long term, but Catwoman was never a true villain, just caught up in bad shit in the movie, and her overall character loves the act of stealing as much as the gain. Her helping out others in need (Holly, the child with the apple, blowing the tunnel) would ring true to Bruce.
I still don't see what was so bad about the Pit they put Wayne in, other than it being a motivation factory/rehab facility (with closed circuit TV direct from Gotham). For some reason I was expecting Wayne to be tormented mentally and physically like it appears Bane was.
