THOMAS JANE’S DIRTY LAUNDRY

Better than the entirety of War Zone.

Oh come on War Zone was fun!  Although it is nice to see a guy who clearly loves the character embracing his geekier qualities.

That was pretty fun. I'd love to see Jane get another crack at Frank Castle although this time with less fire  hydrant moving.

War Zone is the closest to a faithful adaptation of the character that we've gotten thus far. Still, this was a fun short, and even though I like Dolph and Ray Stevenson more, I really appreciate Thomas Jane doing stuff like this to show he cares about the character.

I've been wondering exactly how much pull Disney has at Marvel Studios.  Obviously they own the company, but do they have a say in things or is it pretty much like Pixar and operates of its own accord?

Starz is going to need a replacement for Spartacus when it ends.....

True.  Plus Cinemax seems to be cementing themselves as the place to be for action shows, between the cult fave Strike Back and the upcoming Transporter series.

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Originally Posted by Dr Harford 


If Pixar really had total creative freedom, would we see so many sequels from them these days? Disney owns the Marvel brand and their characters. Their goal isn't to make great Marvel movies, it's to leverage that brand to make a profit. I would imagine that Disney might listen to Marvel's input since they understand the characters best, but the bottom line is always going to be the first concern. Disney wants the widest audience possible, now more than ever after Avengers made so much cash. I'd expect Marvel to be increasingly under Disney's thumb now that the suits have dollar signs in their eyes.

"So many sequels"? Since Toy Story came out almost two decades ago, Pixar's made a total of three sequels (with a fourth, technically a prequel, on the way). And they started the trend themselves long before the Disney acquisition, with Toy Story 2. I don't mean to be rushing to Disney's defense or anything, I guess I just don't see the justification for foreseeing doom and gloom for either Pixar or Marvel.

Toy Story 2 was unnecessary too. All sequels are. And 3 sure as hell wasn't a step down.

Wait... how did talking about The Punisher lead to Toy Story again?

Am I the only one who liked Jane's portrayal a little more than Stevenson's?

I've come around to Warzone/Stevenson the more I've watched it, but this looks really passionate and did a good job of setting up the various tensions. The idea of the victims taking part in the "punishment" aspect is a strong, confronting one.

Would very happily follow a TV series born from this.

Great two-fer from Perlman today too. This and a possible return to Hellboy. Such a great presence in our corner of the world.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

Am I the only one who liked Jane's portrayal a little more than Stevenson's?

I liked Jane's work as the character, but wish it was in service of a much better movie.  Why couldn't Punisher 2004 have the same level of gore and violence as this short?  That was one thing that Warzone got right about the adaptation of Ennis' run on Punisher MAX.  Another thing I love about Warzone is the level of scenery chewing from Dominic West.  Absolutely GLORIOUS.

This is pretty crappy, honestly. And also somewhat racist.
 

Draco Senior, Jane is...Perfect, in this short.  He sure left more...Dirty Laundry in the...streets. Jane wanted to be The Punisher, and he is a good actor.  I liked his portrayal of Mickey Mantle in the HBO film 61 as well.  The Problems with Jane's Punisher include, lack of action, fairly weak selection of firepower for Castle, a Physically perfect actor to be The Russian. Despite that, there is no reason such an over the top villain is...Mute, and killed fairly quickly.  Ray Stevenson is just...Awesome in Punisher War Zone.  He also has the suit ripped right out of the Marvel Comic.  Jane only got a skull...T Shirt! Stevenson has the complete look of...80's era Punisher by Mike Baron.  Stevenson is playing...Baron's Punisher, not Ennis's.  Also,  I recommend you...Check out Essential Punisher 3 (where Castle teams up with other superheroes)!

You just now noticed that the Punisher kills either Italian Mobsters, Black Gang Bangers or Latinos?
 

I think most Punisher stuff makes an effort to depict black villains as more than vicious savage rapists, yes. It's a weird, misanthropic, nasty little short. That's not particularly interesting or well-made. But hey, it does have lots of grimy pointless violence. That's what pushes fanboy buttons, so at least Jane knows his audience.

Wow...there are people really angry about this short, and it sort of strikes me as...misplaced.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Draco Senior 

Am I the only one who liked Jane's portrayal a little more than Stevenson's?

Definitely not. Jane is a better actor.

Maybe, but Stevenson's a better Punisher.
 

I guess I just found Jane more... accessible? I just felt nothing for Stevenson. It felt like a one-note performance. I felt sympathy for Jane while I didn't care if Stevenson succeeded or not. Maybe with a character like Punisher you're supposed to be closed off but Jane just worked better for me in bringing more layers to the role.

Jane seems petulant and mopey. Completely against the character.
 

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Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

Jane seems petulant and mopey. Completely against the character.
 

I guess but if my family was gunned down in front of me, I'd feel a little mopey too. I'm not a big enough fan of the comics to know who was more faithful just which performance rang more true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

This is pretty crappy, honestly. And also somewhat racist.
 

Yeah, I'm not familiar with Punisher, but if this is what it is, then I don't need to see two hours of it.  This left a bad taste in my mouth.  I guess Jane wants to be the next Mel Gibson.

Quote:

Originally Posted by User_32 

I guess I just found Jane more... accessible? I just felt nothing for Stevenson. It felt like a one-note performance. I felt sympathy for Jane while I didn't care if Stevenson succeeded or not. Maybe with a character like Punisher you're supposed to be closed off but Jane just worked better for me in bringing more layers to the role.

I'd pretty much agree with you. Stevenson didn't have much to work with in Warzone. He excelled as a bad ass, but there wasn't much of a character for him to play. He was a shark with a shotgun.

Jane had the more human role in his film, and was able to showcase his range to a greater degree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather 

This is pretty crappy, honestly. And also somewhat racist.
 

I was looking for a way into this topic and Merriweather seems to echo what I'm feeling.  As a short it was okay, nothing extraordinary.  I think it's being given alot of praise more because it's unauthorized, doesn't look like shit, and it's cool to see good, mainstream actors being fanboys.  But almost the entire time I was watching it, I felt uncomfortable, because I'm noticing alot of these violent, mean spirited racial stereotypes being treated like stock narrative....almost a lazy way of making movies.  Need a few inner city thugs/rapists?  Be sure and cast black and latino for authenticity (nevermind the entire idea of the Punisher being pure comic book fantasy).... don't worry about perpetuating dangerous and damaging social stereotypes in a country that has had WAY too much of that, and remember, the inner city is a dangerous jungle, so if you're white, you better hope you don't get stranded there...at least be armed.

There was one caucasian gang member I believe.  Then Ron Pearlman shows up in all his awesomeness and I'm ready to forgive the whole thing, and he just becomes another angry white guy who despises the brown "savages" (he actually uses that word).  So the only two characters who have any sort of social commentary on the greater problem of violence in this seemingly realistic setting are two white guys.  The black kid who gets manhandled is a welcome addition since he abhors violence and drugs...but honestly, he's a kid, what else is he going to say?  Kids want to play video games and eat candy, and not much else.  He represents the purity of the human spirit (to get all sentimental), but as a child, it's a default characterization, meaning it's borderline lazy.

It seems the accepted racial order of criminality is:  White collar, sophisticated, high class criminals = Caucasian or Italian.  Lower level worker bee thugs/petty criminals/rapists/animals = black and latino (and the occassional white guy, but he must be a wigger who likes rap and dresses like "them").  Terrorists = Middle Eastern brown people.  I guess I'm just saddened by the lack of imagination in these narratives and the continued dragging on of this racist fucking dichotomy we can't seem to shake.  Movies are a HUGE influence on the population and I just can't sit back and put my fingers in my ears going "lalalalalala" anymore like I used to.  These are just my own feelings by the way, and I don't mean to put a damper on anyone's enthusiam for this short, as I'm glad it did get made.  But I can't keep quiet about this kind of stuff anymore.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler 

 

I was looking for a way into this topic and Merriweather seems to echo what I'm feeling.  As a short it was okay, nothing extraordinary.  I think it's being given alot of praise more because it's unauthorized, doesn't look like shit, and it's cool to see good, mainstream actors being fanboys.  But almost the entire time I was watching it, I felt uncomfortable, because I'm noticing alot of these violent, mean spirited racial stereotypes being treated like stock narrative....almost a lazy way of making movies.  Need a few inner city thugs/rapists?  Be sure and cast black and latino for authenticity (nevermind the entire idea of the Punisher being pure comic book fantasy).... don't worry about perpetuating dangerous and damaging social stereotypes in a country that has had WAY too much of that, and remember, the inner city is a dangerous jungle, so if you're white, you better hope you don't get stranded there...at least be armed.

 

There was one caucasian gang member I believe.  Then Ron Pearlman shows up in all his awesomeness and I'm ready to forgive the whole thing, and he just becomes another angry white guy who despises the brown "savages" (he actually uses that word).  So the only two characters who have any sort of social commentary on the greater problem of violence in this seemingly realistic setting are two white guys.  The black kid who gets manhandled is a welcome addition since he abhors violence and drugs...but honestly, he's a kid, what else is he going to say?  Kids want to play video games and eat candy, and not much else.  He represents the purity of the human spirit (to get all sentimental), but as a child, it's a default characterization, meaning it's borderline lazy.

 

It seems the accepted racial order of criminality is:  White collar, sophisticated, high class criminals = Caucasian or Italian.  Lower level worker bee thugs/petty criminals/rapists/animals = black and latino (and the occassional white guy, but he must be a wigger who likes rap and dresses like "them").  Terrorists = Middle Eastern brown people.  I guess I'm just saddened by the lack of imagination in these narratives and the continued dragging on of this racist fucking dichotomy we can't seem to shake.  Movies are a HUGE influence on the population and I just can't sit back and put my fingers in my ears going "lalalalalala" anymore like I used to.  These are just my own feelings by the way, and I don't mean to put a damper on anyone's enthusiam for this short, as I'm glad it did get made.  But I can't keep quiet about this kind of stuff anymore.

Such a really eye-opening post, Ambler. Thank you.

This is such a touchy topic and I'm sure Jane and the rest of the people behind this short are surprised by the push-back. But you're correct when you say these racial caricatures have been really engrained into our entertainment. It really shouldn't be an issue when a gang of black men or Arab terrorists are villains, but when they are ALWAYS the villains...

Guys, normally I'm with you on the racism stuff, but this really doesn't seem to be a good target for that kind of criticism. It's a 10-minute Punisher short. It's a half-step up from a cartoon.

I have narrative questions, though, like: Why does it take Frank Freakin' Castle a full alley rape and the torture of a little boy before he decides to intervene? Is he supposed to be retired and trying to stay out of trouble? Then why is he still washing his goddamn skull shirts?!

(Okay, so yeah, those are questions much smaller than inquiries about the nature of racial stereotypes. But, again, I'm not sure an unsanctioned Punisher short deserves deeper analysis.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by zak chase 

Guys, normally I'm with you on the racism stuff, but this really doesn't seem to be a good target for that kind of criticism. It's a 10-minute Punisher short. It's a half-step up from a cartoon.

I know this isn't a theatrical feature, but it is in on youtube, is getting tons of views from anyone with an internet connection, and obviously affects the viewer (everything you watch affects you).  I was speaking more about the mindset of people who make movies, which I'm sure whoever was involved creatively with this short behind the camera either does for a living, or wants to do.  Narratives don't make themselves.  And the fact that this mindset is what continues these racial trends in theatrical features.  I think the topic is totally relevant.

I guess I'm just getting older.  I used to be totally gun-ho film wise and didn't let political or social issues get in the way of my enjoyment of films.  But age seems to mellow the mind and you get more contemplative.  I'm sure that's common knowledge, but it's different whent it happens to you.  My very young nieces are visiting me right now and being a brand new uncle, I'm feeling very protective lately.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ambler 

 

I know this isn't a theatrical feature, but it is in on youtube, is getting tons of views from anyone with an internet connection, and obviously affects the viewer (everything you watch affects you).  I was speaking more about the mindset of people who make movies, which I'm sure whoever was involved creatively with this short behind the camera either does for a living, or wants to do.  Narratives don't make themselves.  And the fact that this mindset is what continues these racial trends in theatrical features.  I think the topic is totally relevant.

 

I guess I'm just getting older.  I used to be totally gun-ho film wise and didn't let political or social issues get in the way of my enjoyment of films.  But age seems to mellow the mind and you get more contemplative.  I'm sure that's common knowledge, but it's different whent it happens to you.  My very young nieces are visiting me right now and being a brand new uncle, I'm feeling very protective lately.

I hear ya. I've got a six-year-old and a three-year-old daughter now. They've totally changed my thought process on how I view entertainment. And your argument is sound. But I just feel like the more resources and running time a filmmaker has, the more they have an obligation not to succumb to easy stereotypes or use racial stereotypes as shorthand to tell a story. But on a low-budget, 10-minute Punisher tribute film ... I feel like there's less of an obligation there.

That does make sense.  But it seems like a bum deal for both sides.

Yeah, I was way more weirded out by Frank noticing a woman and a child being beaten to shit and doing nothing, That makes Castle look like more of a dick than anything else, which, really *IS* the character, which has always had really fucked up politics anyway, which has been used to fascinating, and lazy effect in the past.

The problem with calling this short out about race is A: the ever-present, dangerous implication by these kinds of claims that if it was a bunch of white guys doing it, it'd be kosher and B: the fact that the short itself doesn't make that distinction, especially when Castle himself makes the opposing distinction that some random white guy finishing the job on the leader wouldn't be fair. 

The kid is a pretty big veto as well. No, being a kid does not automatically mean his only response to asking to run drugs is "no". Most of the greatest stories put to film about gangs in urban environments have kids either doing dirty work, or being taught how to. Shit, one of the big plot devices on Breaking Bad back in Season 3 was about that very thing. The kid here says, without question, "No." That makes him a good kid.

Black guys in gangs exist. So do Chinese people who run laundromats, Middle eastern guys who hate America and like blowing shit up, Italians who run "legitimate businesses". The important question to ask about whether the racial politics of any piece of media are on the wrong side is always "Is the work making that assumption about all Black/Asian/Middle Eastern/Italian people, or THESE Black/Asian/Middle Eastern/Italian People, and to what end?"

It's not about the fact that the gang was a black gang.  It's about the idea that it plays almost exclusively as a power fantasy for aging white guys.  (Maybe that's true to all The Punisher is, I dunno.)  Perlman's character is really what sealed the deal.  Two white guys talking about the "savages" and "animals" being the downfall of civilization.  Beating them to death with a bottle of old time Tennessee whiskey didn't help, either.

He just wants his kids back.

Didn't care much for this short.  Are people really arguing about who served the character better?  Punisher is as much a character as Jason or Michael Myers is a character.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey 

It's not about the fact that the gang was a black gang.  It's about the idea that it plays almost exclusively as a power fantasy for aging white guys.  (Maybe that's true to all The Punisher is, I dunno.)  Perlman's character is really what sealed the deal.  Two white guys talking about the "savages" and "animals" being the downfall of civilization.  Beating them to death with a bottle of old time Tennessee whiskey didn't help, either.

It pretty much is The Punisher. The better stories are the ones that play off that fact (pretty any time he's not in his own book, really).

That said, again, those same terms Perlman uses would apply if it was white guys. Their race is only made an implicit issue by us, not the short.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Justin Clark 

 

It pretty much is The Punisher. The better stories are the ones that play off that fact (pretty any time he's not in his own book, really).

 

That said, again, those same terms Perlman uses would apply if it was white guys. Their race is only made an implicit issue by us, not the short.

I feel that terms like "animals" and "savages" have a certain charged tone, and that there's often racial coding implied in their use.  Same with "thug."  I remember when the Trayvon Martin story broke, there was a shooting across the way from where I live.  Young guy killed one, severely wounded another.  They all happened to be white.  Around town I rarely, if ever heard terms like "animal", "savage" or "thug" applied to the shooter.  Rewind a year further, when a similar crime happened in town with a group of blacks.  Practically all I heard were those three words.  Granted, that's anecdotal... but I don't think it's my imagination.

I don't see the issue here. In THE RAID it was pretty much all Indonesians being slaughtered. In SAFE it was Asians and Russians. Looks like The Expendables are mainly killing a bunch of eastern Europeans. That fake Jason Bourne appears to be murdering crackers. Then you got DJANGO UNCHAINED.

People should be more appreciative of the fact that we're living in a golden age of fictional homicide diversity.

Where are some of these opinions coming from? Stevenson is a WAY better actor than Jane. In fact, Jane's usually quite terrible and unconvincing.

I said that I enjoyed Jane's performance more in his Punisher flick, not that one of them is the better actor in most roles.

Disagree on Jane, though.  I think he's a good performer who does deserve a little better.

I haven't seen enough of Jane, but his most memorable role thus far for me is as half of the Vegan-Police.  Stevenson played Titus Pullo.  Advantage Thirteenth.

I dunno. Jane had his shot. He played a LOT of lead roles, had a semi-long-running TV show, became a face for awhile. I don't think the guy missed his shot, I think he just isn't very good or likable.

I am also the sole fan of him in his porkpie hat in the unwatchable-to-most "I Melt With You." 

Also, his presence at annual cons is a tad desperate.

Poor guy could have been Don Draper.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bailey 

I haven't seen enough of Jane, but his most memorable role thus far for me is as half of the Vegan-Police.  Stevenson played Titus Pullo.  Advantage Thirteenth.

Jane always seemed to work better as a character actor than as a badass leading man. He just seems so much more engaged as the Vegan Cop or as Todd in "Boogie Nights" than as the brooding action guy.

See, I thought Jane was one of the least memorable things about Boogie Nights.

His short stint on Arrested Development is all I ever need from him.