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The Dark Knight Trilogy - Page 3

post #101 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

Nolan fumbles when he tries to juggle too much. Keeping his focus tight is a big thing for him right now. And the end of TDKR demonstrated that pretty clearly..

 

Totally agree.

 

I'd say the docking scene in Interstellar demonstrates it even better.  It's a legitimately GREAT action sequence and is lazer focussed on what is happening in that moment.

post #102 of 1251

Strangely, that docking sequence left me cold.  No tension, no excitement.  But I'm gonna chalk that one up to just 'one of those things'.  Because I don't see anything 'wrong' with it in itself.  It might just be that I never felt the movie needed any action/adventure sequences.  I might've found it an obligation.

 

Love the score there though.

post #103 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

Strangely, that docking sequence left me cold.  No tension, no excitement.  But I'm gonna chalk that one up to just 'one of those things'.  

 

I think you should chalk it up to you having no soul.

post #104 of 1251
I find The Dark Knight trilogy really interesting and satisfying as a whole and even, yes, pretty thrilling. Nolan's got a clunky hand when it comes to action sequences yet, it's a whole shitload of NON action scenes that I find most thrilling and memorable in those movies. His three best "Bat" action sequences (to me) are the bank robbery in TDK, the sonar/Bats vs SWAT then Joker scene at the end and the "crashing this plane" scene from TDKR, goofy CIA dude performance/dialogue aside. I just love those scenes..
post #105 of 1251
I'd say the most effective sequence for me was the first Bane fight. I love how it's all stripped back, little to no score, just Bale screaming and grunting. All my favourite Bane lines are in that scene too. "You're precious armoury... GRATEFULLY ACCEPTED!"
post #106 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike's Pants View Post

I'd say the most effective sequence for me was the first Bane fight. I love how it's all stripped back, little to no score, just Bale screaming and grunting. All my favourite Bane lines are in that scene too. "You're precious armoury... GRATEFULLY ACCEPTED!"
This is the oddest of gripes about that sequence but the location of it throws me off. I just cannot and will not ever understand why Bane didn't ambush Bruce at his mansion/the bat cave. It would've accomplished virtually all of the same things narratively as well. That was so weird to me..
post #107 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

Nolan fumbles when he tries to juggle too much. Keeping his focus tight is a big thing for him right now. And the end of TDKR demonstrated that pretty clearly..

 

And yet, Inception is arguably his most universally acclaimed work.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

I find The Dark Knight trilogy really interesting and satisfying as a whole and even, yes, pretty thrilling. Nolan's got a clunky hand when it comes to action sequences yet, it's a whole shitload of NON action scenes that I find most thrilling and memorable in those movies. His three best "Bat" action sequences (to me) are the bank robbery in TDK, the sonar/Bats vs SWAT then Joker scene at the end and the "crashing this plane" scene from TDKR, goofy CIA dude performance/dialogue aside. I just love those scenes..

 

This is madness.  The SWAT van/tumbler chase is head and shoulders above anything else in the trilogy in action terms.  Then the Bane beatdown.  Then there's such a huge drop off that it gets tougher to say.  Maybe the SWAT hostage sequence in TDK, or maybe the Catwoman roof fight.

post #108 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post


This is the oddest of gripes about that sequence but the location of it throws me off. I just cannot and will not ever understand why Bane didn't ambush Bruce at his mansion/the bat cave. It would've accomplished virtually all of the same things narratively as well. That was so weird to me..


I don't think that would have accomplished much. Bane wants Bats out of his element. Out of familiar spaces and his mansion could have been equipped with all sorts of gadgets and gizmos to help his aide. Being led into a sewer and then trapped "like a rat in a cage" plays on Bruce's fears. It's not just Bane's muscle that defeats Bruce. It's Bruce that defeats Bruce.

post #109 of 1251
This is madness.  The SWAT van/tumbler chase is head and shoulders above anything else in the trilogy in action terms.  Then the Bane beatdown.  Then there's such a huge drop off that it gets tougher to say.  Maybe the SWAT hostage sequence in TDK, or maybe the Catwoman roof fight.
[/quote]
That's why I made it clear that these were just my own personal preferences lol not declaring them THE BEST. I like the rhythm of the two TDK sequences. The score and editing in both do a hell of a lot of heavy lifting and the latter (SWAT fight) is, to me, the absolute most badass that Batman has been in any of the movies and I found the scene easy to follow. And the plane scene in TDKR was so delightfully Bond-ish.

As for Inception...well that one was a different sort of juggling. It was like juggling four or five balls of varying speeds, which lent itself to a sort of elegance that suited him whereas the climax of TDKR was like juggling a bowling ball, watermelon and a chainsaw. Jagged and ugly and eventually messy.

ETA-Forgive me for fucking up the quote up top and making such a confusing post. I'm not altogether this morning..
post #110 of 1251
Thread Starter 
The Hong Kong sequence in TDK doesn't get enough love. One, it's novel, because we've never seen Batman outside of Gotham in the movies, and two, it's shot beautifully. The jump, glide and rolling crash into the skyscraper window is fantastic. The following fight is nothing spectacular, but it's very Batmanny, and then we cap it off with skyhook, showing Batman using his resources as opposed to somehow sneaking another Bat vehicle or something overseas.
post #111 of 1251

That first Bane fight is fucking intense and I remember thinking he actually took Batman's head off. I got super emotional.

 

When has a recent acton movie ever done that to me? Can't think of one.

post #112 of 1251
Thread Starter 
That first fight is great because it's the first time that we we've seen Batman walk into a physical confrontation that he can't handle. I like the second fight as well because he isn't suddenly stronger than Bane. He nearly loses that fight too, but the point isn't that he's stronger or a better fighter than Bane, it's that he goes up against shit odds, learns to trust and listen to other people, and perseveres.
post #113 of 1251

The opening robbery in TDK is excellent. I don't even know that I'd call it an action scene, but purely in terms of character and revealing the Joker's thought process it's fucking perfect.

post #114 of 1251
Love that bank robbery sequence.

The way it ends makes little sense, but it does such a great job of being a metaphorical sample of the Joker's MO through the whole movie.
post #115 of 1251
One thing I greatly dislike about TDKR is that Batman goes up against Bane in such a compromised physical condition. I think it takes something away from Bane's character. Maybe others feel differently. Bane defeating a Batman who is in tip top condition would've made him seem all the more formidable. As it is, I wonder if a Batman who was in the fighting shape he was in in Begins couldn't have outright taken Bane, first try. Sure it would've been a harder battle than normal but he was a beast in the first movie..
post #116 of 1251
Thread Starter 
That's kind of the whole point, similar to Bane wearing Batman down by proxy in Knightfall. It's a movie about Wayne recognizing that he can't continue being Batman because even ubermensch get old.
post #117 of 1251
I've never read Knightfall....I didn't know that he somehow wore him down, pre "breaking." I'll have to look that up. I thought he just confronted and crushed him..
post #118 of 1251
Thread Starter 
Knightfall is essentially a dozen issues (more or less) of Batman fighting a host of Arkham Asylum escapees and trying to figure out who orchestrated the mass escape from the place to begin with.

He doesn't even know Bane's name when he comes home to the mansion after days of fighting and no sleep and Bane is already in the Batcave ready to fuck him up. Which he does.
post #119 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

One thing I greatly dislike about TDKR is that Batman goes up against Bane in such a compromised physical condition. I think it takes something away from Bane's character. Maybe others feel differently. Bane defeating a Batman who is in tip top condition would've made him seem all the more formidable. As it is, I wonder if a Batman who was in the fighting shape he was in in Begins couldn't have outright taken Bane, first try. Sure it would've been a harder battle than normal but he was a beast in the first movie..

My problem was that Batman's strategy in his rematch with Bane is basically "punch him harder." And it works.

post #120 of 1251
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangy View Post

My problem was that Batman's strategy in his rematch with Bane is basically "punch him harder." And it works.

Not really. He's on the verge of losing the fight again before he hits the mask the right way and manages to dislodge the tubing.
post #121 of 1251
gotta punch him harder
punch him smarter
get his tubes off
make him less boff

now who's the big guy?
now who's bigger?
tell me, where's the triggur?

you wouldn't give it to an ordinary citizen
don't make me ask again

where's the triggur
where's the triggur
post #122 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

Knightfall is essentially a dozen issues (more or less) of Batman fighting a host of Arkham Asylum escapees and trying to figure out who orchestrated the mass escape from the place to begin with.

He doesn't even know Bane's name when he comes home to the mansion after days of fighting and no sleep and Bane is already in the Batcave ready to fuck him up. Which he does.


Almost wish Nolan had cribed that. It gives me the giggles to think some rando is waiting for him in the Batcave and Batman goes, "Who the fuck is this guy?"

 

Punch to the ribs.  "OH SHIT!"

post #123 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

Not really. He's on the verge of losing the fight again before he hits the mask the right way and manages to dislodge the tubing.

Okay, so he goes in with the exact same strategy and ends up getting lucky. Not sure how that's better.

 

post #124 of 1251
Thread Starter 
I can't remember exact line that Batman delivers to Bane, but the issue where they meet and Batman is defeated is very clearly inspired by Doyle's The Final Problem.
post #125 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post


That's why I made it clear that these were just my own personal preferences lol not declaring them THE BEST. I like the rhythm of the two TDK sequences. The score and editing in both do a hell of a lot of heavy lifting and the latter (SWAT fight) is, to me, the absolute most badass that Batman has been in any of the movies and I found the scene easy to follow. And the plane scene in TDKR was so delightfully Bond-ish.

As for Inception...well that one was a different sort of juggling. It was like juggling four or five balls of varying speeds, which lent itself to a sort of elegance that suited him whereas the climax of TDKR was like juggling a bowling ball, watermelon and a chainsaw. Jagged and ugly and eventually messy.

 

Can't say I understand the juggling metaphor entirely, but it's been quite a while since I saw the end of TDKR to say how well it's edited together.

 

The plane sequence is very Bond-ish, in that it's stylishly shot but I don't really give a shit about the characters (who even on rewatch, are mostly nobodies) involved or understand the convoluted scheme at work.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

The Hong Kong sequence in TDK doesn't get enough love. One, it's novel, because we've never seen Batman outside of Gotham in the movies, and two, it's shot beautifully. The jump, glide and rolling crash into the skyscraper window is fantastic. The following fight is nothing spectacular, but it's very Batmanny, and then we cap it off with skyhook, showing Batman using his resources as opposed to somehow sneaking another Bat vehicle or something overseas.

 


I blanked on the HK sequence, that would definitely be my #3.  The crash and roll is one of the few times we get to actually see Batman perform an acrobatic stunt in a decent wide shot, and very cool.  Though I don't quite understand how sneaking Bat vehicles around isn't "using his resources", I think I agree with the sentiment that the Nolan films ultimately lean slightly too hard on vehicular action at the expense of the man himself doing the heavy lifting (though it's a double edged sword, because Nolan seems more comfortable shooting those sequences than the hand-to-hand stuff).

post #126 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post


Not really. He's on the verge of losing the fight again before he hits the mask the right way and manages to dislodge the tubing.


I think it's telling that Batman didn't think of it before. His idea of masks is totally metaphoric, in fact he brings that up a few times with Blake. It's for protection for the ones you care about. It never occurred to him to take it so literal with Bane. It wasn't an intimidation tactic. It was his life support. Which is interesting because it's saying Batman neglected knowing that because in way "Batman" is the same for Bruce until he learns to shed the suit from the man.

post #127 of 1251
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangy View Post

Okay, so he goes in with the exact same strategy and ends up getting lucky. Not sure how that's better.


 

I like it because it's not afraid of showing that Batman is outmatched and can't really turn that around by doing push-ups. The win is the effort, which is weird in a superhero film.
post #128 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangy View Post

My problem was that Batman's strategy in his rematch with Bane is basically "punch him harder." And it works.
Upon several rewatches (and it isn't terribly clear because "Nolan action scene")...I'd have to disagree that his strategy is just "hit harder." He gets squirrelly on him. He was lumbering and tired in his first fight. He's shucking and jiving the second time. Overwhelming Bane more with a certain relentlessness. AND going for the mask.

Now...the whole mask thing is problematic. I understand why many people question "well, why didn't he go for it the FIRST time? It's such an obvious weak point." Perhaps it seemed TOO weak though? I justify it by thinking that Batman didn't attempt to disable the mask during their first battle because he didn't know if he'd die without it or not. That's my take on it anyway. He learns in the pit that it just suppresses pain and that he probably won't be breaking his one rule by busting the mask. I'm not saying this is really well done and clearly conveyed but that's how I chose to view it overall..
post #129 of 1251
Doesn't one of the prisoners tell him the mask keeps him alive after the injuries he sustained to his face in the past?

Would be a funny running joke for Bruce to take everything figuratively and be a total dunce about such exposition.
post #130 of 1251
Thread Starter 
No, he says it keeps the pain at bay. The mask thing isn't problematic. He works Bane's face in the first fight, but when Bane starts hitting him back...Batman is kind of fucked at that point. He hasn't been hit like that and is in no shape to absorb that kind of force.
post #131 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Doesn't one of the prisoners tell him the mask keeps him alive after the injuries he sustained to his face in the past?

Would be a funny running joke for Bruce to take everything figuratively and be a total dunce about such exposition.
What Jacknife said..
post #132 of 1251

Batman neglects the mask because it would mean he'd have to confront his own. That's what the movie is saying under the layers.

post #133 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

Batman neglects the mask because it would mean he'd have to confront his own. That's what the movie is saying under the layers.

ehhhhhhhh...

Though about the mask weakness, I'm talking more about the way the rematch plays out.

I love the first 'fight'. I have no problems with how that one plays out.

As Phil said... TDKR is a remake of Rocky III !

Also, I stand corrected on the exposition about the mask's function. Though it still sounds like a weakness to aggressive exploit during the rematch (as opposed to coming off like a lucky break the way the movie plays it out).
post #134 of 1251
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Can't say I understand the juggling metaphor entirely, but it's been quite a while since I saw the end of TDKR to say how well it's edited together.

The plane sequence is very Bond-ish, in that it's stylishly shot but I don't really give a shit about the characters (who even on rewatch, are mostly nobodies) involved or understand the convoluted scheme at work.



I blanked on the HK sequence, that would definitely be my #3.  The crash and roll is one of the few times we get to actually see Batman perform an acrobatic stunt in a decent wide shot, and very cool.  Though I don't quite understand how sneaking Bat vehicles around isn't "using his resources", I think I agree with the sentiment that the Nolan films ultimately lean slightly too hard on vehicular action at the expense of the man himself doing the heavy lifting (though it's a double edged sword, because Nolan seems more comfortable shooting those sequences than the hand-to-hand stuff).

What I mean is that instead of sneaking in another cool fictional vehicle because that's what he'd do in another movie, Nolan finds a somewhat more "real world" way of Batman doing what he needs to do. I'm not sure if he specifically thought about that, but the plane was real (which disappointed a lot of people in Hong Kong because they thought they were going to see a Batplane or something on location). It was also another way for Nolan to crib from a Bond movie, I forget at the moment which one, but probably Thunderball.
post #135 of 1251
It's Rocky III meets The World is Not Enough.

I'm proud of you all lol...I've enjoyed this discussion. We managed to talk in depth a bit about this movie without it descending into "it sucks...blah blah blah." We've been over and over (and OVER) that ground. It's heavily flawed but not without merit and the conversation stayed mostly on the analysis of certain aspects of it and that was a nice change of pace..
post #136 of 1251
it's relentlessly paced

yet relentlessly listless

Bane and CIA guy are a delight
post #137 of 1251
Thread Starter 
I imagine nooj with a box of kleenex by his side every time TDKR comes up.
post #138 of 1251
And Schwartz? If you didn't understand one of my metaphors, it's probably because it made little sense lol.

I'm a hick not an intellectual..
post #139 of 1251
Thank you all for...

RESURRECTION
post #140 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

I'm proud of you all lol...I've enjoyed this discussion. We managed to talk in depth a bit about this movie without it descending into "it sucks...blah blah blah." We've been over and over (and OVER) that ground. It's heavily flawed but not without merit and the conversation stayed mostly on the analysis of certain aspects of it and that was a nice change of pace..

It takes real men to not devolve into another Force Awakens Thread shenanigan. 

post #141 of 1251
Rises is definitely listless. So many things happen and then unhappen just as quickly. The whole CIA bit is the best example.
post #142 of 1251
DR PAVEL

IM CIA
post #143 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

DR PAVEL

IM CIA
Jeez Nooj....maybe that's his name.

Mr Seeyieh
post #144 of 1251

What the fuck does unhappen mean?

post #145 of 1251
Thread Starter 
Listless means a lack of enthusiasm, which has nothing to do with things "happening and unhappening" nor does it describe the movie.
post #146 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post


What I mean is that instead of sneaking in another cool fictional vehicle because that's what he'd do in another movie, Nolan finds a somewhat more "real world" way of Batman doing what he needs to do. I'm not sure if he specifically thought about that, but the plane was real (which disappointed a lot of people in Hong Kong because they thought they were going to see a Batplane or something on location). It was also another way for Nolan to crib from a Bond movie, I forget at the moment which one, but probably Thunderball.

 

That makes sense.  It's bombastic but still less fantastical than we'd expect from a non-Nolan Batman.  And I like that, but what really sells it for me is that we get to see a variety of gadgets come into play and some actual movement in the Batsuit.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

And Schwartz? If you didn't understand one of my metaphors, it's probably because it made little sense lol.

I'm a hick not an intellectual..

 

I feel like I sort of got it, because the action in Inception does feel (sometimes literally) more lightweight than what goes on in the Batfilms, where the effects feel more practical and weighty.  But I'm not sure that makes them any easier to actually shoot, or to juggle on a narrative level. 

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think Nolan is a director that actually thrives on complexity.  It's when he just needs to show Batman punch out a few thugs that he can't seem to sell it.

post #147 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

Jeez Nooj....maybe that's his name.

Mr Seeyieh
That's why it's so delightful!

HE DIDN'T FLY SO GOOD!!!

Listless with this movie is the same feeling I had watching Ultron. So much stuff happening and me caring about so little of it.
post #148 of 1251
There is a complete lack of enthusiasm in Rises. The whole thing is just scenes. Scenes happen for no apparent reason. What is the point of Captain Jones and his Special OPs team? They enter the movie and then quickly exit, incompetently at that.

And how about the death by exile scenes? There are two of them and the whole kangaroo court bit is never resolved. Crane just disappears at some point.

Nolan's enthusiasm for making these movies died with Heath Ledger.
post #149 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

 

That makes sense.  It's bombastic but still less fantastical than we'd expect from a non-Nolan Batman.  And I like that, but what really sells it for me is that we get to see a variety of gadgets come into play and some actual movement in the Batsuit.

 

 

I feel like I sort of got it, because the action in Inception does feel (sometimes literally) more lightweight than what goes on in the Batfilms, where the effects feel more practical and weighty.  But I'm not sure that makes them any easier to actually shoot, or to juggle on a narrative level. 

 

I guess what I'm getting at is that I think Nolan is a director that actually thrives on complexity.  It's when he just needs to show Batman punch out a few thugs that he can't seem to sell it.


Nolan doesn't make action movies.

 

They have action in them, but they really aren't action movies. And why do we have to be sold a punch? Most of the time, Batman is guaranteed to win in a fight of common thugs. It's when he is losing that it becomes actually worthwhile. And thankfully, Nolan has landed successfully there in many instances, focusing on the drama of the fight rather than the fight itself.

post #150 of 1251
Quote:
Originally Posted by catartik View Post

There is a complete lack of enthusiasm in Rises. The whole thing is just scenes. Scenes happen for no apparent reason. What is the point of Captain Jones and his Special OPs team? They enter the movie and then quickly exit, incompetently at that.

You just answered your own question.  The point is for them to feel incompetent to the situation. Gordon even states, "It all has to be fixed from inside the city."  "It means we're on our own."

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