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The Walking Dead Season 3 - Page 16

post #751 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post

 

That's you projecting your own nature onto Daryl, not anything that's explicitly written into the character on the page or onscreen. 

 

And neither is the idea that he is interested in keeping his group safe because of altruism.  Neither sides are in the narrative, to continue repeating myself.

 

 

Quote:

And Michonne can't simultaneously "seek no group dynamic" and "spend most of her screen time helping white characters."  Those are contradictory arguments. 

 

Actually no, they're not.  She is not seeking a group to align with, she is merely helping them.  Those are two different things.  If I'm driving past a school bus that has broken down on the side of the road, helping them is not me wanting to join that group.

 

 

Quote:

Finding the prison people gives her a chance to get back into the little town and kill the Governor.  That's her strategy.  She's not helping them.  She's helping herself. 

 

Actually Michonne needed no help getting back into the town.  Once they arrived, she snuck off and found her own way in with no help from the others.  She did it alone.  This means that she led them there so they could get their people back...more helping the white characters.  Since she needed no help getting into the town, why help them?  Especially since Rick was so hostile to her?   Because that's what the stereotype usually calls for.

 

 

Quote:
I'm telling you, criticize the writing and the characters all you want and half the time I will agree with you, but trying to cram this character into the Magical Negro stereotype is missing the forest for the trees, in my opinion.

 

Once again, I am not cramming Michonne into this stereotype...it exists in the show with no help from myself.  She fits every single requirement. I have already explained why the other white characters do not...completely forgetting the fact that this stereotype does not exist for white characters...it is traditionally reserved for blacks.  Meaning that even if a white character on this show fits the stereotype...it is not a stereotype for them.  It has no shameful history regarding that ethnicity.  Honestly I wish it wasn't going on, because it's a good show.


Edited by Ambler - 12/4/12 at 6:47pm
post #752 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navidson View Post

 

Kinda like being locked up in a prison, having your sword taken, and having a crossbow to your head. Just saying in the zombie world, every outsider is going to be treated like that. There are things the Governor does that would simply work to keep a community like Woodbury safe. Other things, they throw in there in order to have a mustache twirler, which Kirkman and Lindeloff both attested to in The Talking Dead. Which makes for a more simple show, which I guess is fine, but the potential was there this season for more.

 

Your comparison is off because Michonne went to the prison on her own free will, whereas the Governor kidnapped her and Andrea well outside of Woodbury and took them there to be hostages.

 

Big difference.

post #753 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

Actually no, they're not.  She is not seeking a group to align with, she is merely helping them.  Those are two different things.  If I'm driving past a school bus that has broken down on the side of the road, helping them is not me wanting to be with that group.

 

Actually Michonne needed no help getting back into the town.  Once they arrived, she snuck off and found her own way in with no help from the others.  She did it alone.  This means that she led them there so they could get their people back...more helping the white characters.  Since she needed no help getting into the town, why help them?  Especially since Rick was so hostile to her?   Because that's what the stereotype usually calls for.

 

She actually needed their help. She was bleeding out when she arrived at the prison walls. She, at the very least, was in such a weakened state that she needed to rely on someone else to fix her up. I dunno know, maybe she helped them help her with her magical shit. Her leading them to the township wasn't a selfless act, either. I think you're doing some magical thinking, bro. I mean, her character is weak, but there is barely anyone on the show with any depth.

post #754 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Matchstick View Post

Daryl's backstory: He has a mean brother.

Merle's backstory: He's a mean brother. Racist.

Glenn's backstory: Own's a baseball cap.

Dale's backstory: Was nice. 

T-dog's backstory: Was nice.

Hershel's backstory: Doctor that own's a farm.

Rick's backstory: Carried the weight of the apocalypse on his shoulders before it happened....

 

Kevin.  Badly written characters are Hollywood's speciality.  I'm not disputing they are one note.  What I'm saying is that there is a historical precedent set in fiction with regard to black characters and TWD is continuing that precedent.  

 

It's like caucasians who blow off racism because they also have bad lives, forgetting the small fact that they aren't treated differently because of their skin color...it's an entirely different dynamic...the fact that they're part of white privilege seems lost on them.  "My boss yelled at me...see, we all have it bad!"

 

My issue is this show doing nothing to erase that backwards value system...in this day and age.  They're still doing it...whether through ignorance or intent...neither is excusable.

post #755 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kevin Matchstick View Post

Her leading them to the township wasn't a selfless act, either. 

 

We are now firmly in splitting hairs territory.

post #756 of 1655

TELL ME ABOUT IT!

post #757 of 1655
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post

 

Your comparison is off because Michonne went to the prison on her own free will,

 

Then said "I didn't ask for no help!" She is nuts as portrayed in this show.

post #758 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

 

Kevin.  Badly written characters are Hollywood's speciality.  I'm not disputing they are one note.  What I'm saying is that there is a historical precedent set in fiction with regard to black characters and TWD is continuing that precedent.  

 

It's like caucasians who blow off racism because they also have bad lives, forgetting the small fact that they aren't treated differently because of their skin color...it's an entirely different dynamic...the fact that they're part of white privilege seems lost on them.  "My boss yelled at me...see, we all have it bad!"

 

My issue is this show doing nothing to erase that backwards value system...in this day and age.  They're still doing it...whether through ignorance or intent...neither is excusable.

 

What are you talking about?  Nobody here is disputing that the show is asinine and facile when it comes to portraying people of color AND WOMEN!  You seem to forget that virtually every woman on this show BESIDES Michonne lives for and is defined by the male gaze, and that obviously doesn't bother you one whit.  What we were talking about is a specific racial stereotype, which you seem to believe she is in a complete vacuum vis a vis the rest of the characters as written and what her character actually does in the show.

post #759 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post

 

What are you talking about?  Nobody here is disputing that the show is asinine and facile when it comes to portraying people of color AND WOMEN!  You seem to forget that virtually every woman on this show BESIDES Michonne lives for and is defined by the male gaze, and that obviously doesn't bother you one whit. 

 

Can we agree that the show has done a bad job of portraying characters effectively?
Can we agree that for certain minority and female characters, the writers have developed stereotypes instead of actual people, as to the level of how egregious the stereotype is, it's debateable.  But it's definitely a problem.  Where it becomes more of a problem is that the show is so damn popular that these stereotypes get disseminated into the audience, not of all whom are watching in order to discuss racial / sexual politics.  So, when this happens, the stereotypes and the ignorance associated gets propagated into our culture instead of hopefully being left for dead. 

 

Maybe I'm reaching here, and I'm over analyzing the show and how it's reacted to by the audience, but this whole discussion has made me like the show less and become more critical of it.

post #760 of 1655

Yeah, I agree with that.  I still like the show and it seems to be limping toward improving on the characterizations, so maybe it'll move away from stereotypes and disposable characters.

post #761 of 1655

I think it is getting progressively better, Carol is more confident, Daryl and Carl are having some moments, I even remember Beth's name now.


Edited by Costco Mike - 12/4/12 at 9:23pm
post #762 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
Actually Michonne needed no help getting back into the town.  Once they arrived, she snuck off and found her own way in with no help from the others.  She did it alone.  This means that she led them there so they could get their people back...more helping the white characters.  Since she needed no help getting into the town, why help them?  Especially since Rick was so hostile to her?   Because that's what the stereotype usually calls for.

 

I totally disagree with your assessment here.  Starting off, Michonne needed medical attention which she effectively purchased with the baby formula.  After witnessing Glen and Maggie and then the Merle situation, she's definitely a canny judge of character and took a gamble which paid off.

 

Now she doesn't know Merle lied and that the Governor wouldn't be sending more people out after her and she wants to take him out.  She can't just waltz back into the town now, so using the knowledge of Glen and Maggie's capture she manipulates them into going to Woodbury on a rescue mission.  She uses them as bait and cover!  The second they're in and the chaos of a gunfight starts, Michonne disappears on her own business, she does absolutely nothing to help them.

 

I'd say she won the boss fight with the Governor, but wasn't able to finish him because of Andrea's appearance and Michonne took some damage.  She cautiously but confidently leaves knowing Andrea won't take the shot and gets out of town, again without doing anything to help the rescue attempt.  The group, however, is lucky enough to make it out, Michonne needs more medical attention, and so she links back up with them.

 

I'd say that, to this point, she's fairly badass and able to take advantage of most situations to her benefit.  And if what she's doing is supposedly helping people, I hope I never need her help.

post #763 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Costco Mike View Post

I think it is getting progressively better, Carol is more confident, Daryl and Carl are having some moments, I even remember Beth's name now.

 

I actually like all of Team Rick now. In previous seasons, I had to remind myself about/tolerate some of them...but they are coming into their own (finally) at the prison.

 

I knew I was on board when I, suddenly and unexpectedly, found myself really worried for Glen and Maggie during their times being tortured. I never expected to be so attached to those two characters, but when it started getting dicey, I realized how much I had grown with them and was legitimately worried for their safety.


Edited by Agent Z - 12/4/12 at 10:17pm
post #764 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post

What are you talking about?  Nobody here is disputing that the show is asinine and facile when it comes to portraying people of color AND WOMEN!  You seem to forget that virtually every woman on this show BESIDES Michonne lives for and is defined by the male gaze, and that obviously doesn't bother you one whit. 

 

Holy shit.

 

 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

The entire show has a disturbing streak running through it regarding not only race but sexuality and masculinity.  

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

 

I never said the other women weren't treated badly by the writers...on the previous page I said the show has a disturbing streak regarding not only race, but sexuality and masculinity...I should have added femininity, but that was what I meant. 

post #765 of 1655

This show also has a disturbing streak in that it portrays the dead as cannibalistic monsters who have wrecked the world. ;)

post #766 of 1655

In all seriousness, this show is still stupid, but it's no longer stupid in the "gangsters in a nursing home I want to stop watching this shit" way of Season 1.

 

Now it's stupid in the "redneck has a sword arm and there is a endless supply of black men who cannot coexist and I will watch this forever" sort of way.

 

This show has performed one of the most impressive turn around acts since maybe Seinfeld, or the Simpsons. And it's still just as dumb, just in other, infinitely more fun ways.

 

And I would also argue the portrayal of Latinos is far more troublesome than the portrayal of blacks, women, rednecks, cops, or one-legged bearded farmers. The cholos with the hearts of gold taking care of their elders was the most offensive thing the show has put forth in my opinion.

post #767 of 1655

Taking it away from the race thing for a second, am I the only one who thinks JUDITH is a terrible old-person name for a baby?

post #768 of 1655

Man, there's so much use of the term "Magical Negro" in here, I had to tripple check I hadn't wandered into THE WIZ POST RELEASE thread.

post #769 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evi View Post

Taking it away from the race thing for a second, am I the only one who thinks JUDITH is a terrible old-person name for a baby?

 

 

Baby names have to be trendy in the apocalypse? Who's really left to impress?

 

I like "Judith", but then I love the homage...just like "Duane Jones" in the first season.

post #770 of 1655

I just, for some reason, think Judith is up there with Agnes as a name no young person should ever have to be called.

post #771 of 1655

I mean, "Judith" is not such a common name these days, but it's also still miles away from the dreaded deadpool of "Agnes", "Mildred", "Gertrude", etc..

 

Plus, "Judith" can be "Judy" to the people around her, and that is still a cute name.
 

post #772 of 1655

Let's face it, "Little Ass Kicker" was the best name ever and they should have damn well stuck with it. Who do you want at your side during a zombie apocalypse? Someone called Judith or someone called Little Ass Kicker?

 

You know the answer.

post #773 of 1655

Yes, and the answer is "Judy". 
 

 

Look, the problem with "Little Ass Kicker" is when LAK gets older and the metabolism slows down, the reflexes slow down, the middleaged spread spreads out, and "Little Ass Kicker" just sounds like a cheesy, corny, sad trucker's handle. It's a name that will age about as well as a tramp stamp.


Edited by Agent Z - 12/5/12 at 1:13am
post #774 of 1655

I like to think that the name would've evolved as she got older. First "Little Ass Kicker," then just "Ass Kicker" and finally "Snoop Lion".


Edited by Evi - 12/5/12 at 1:26am
post #775 of 1655

"Snoop Lion" is good.
 

post #776 of 1655

I think we're all missing the really big issue here, which is that zombie shows and movies by necessity have to handwave how the zombie apocalypse came to pass in the first place, because realistically, it'd be snuffed out almost straight away.

 

As demonstrated in this short clip from Norway, a slower moving zombie horde is no match for a smarter, faster and more agile human opponent - especially with top quality sporting goods.

 

post #777 of 1655

I just want to say I didn't mean to start a race riot in here!  Can't we all just get along?

post #778 of 1655

I agree. We should all just take a step back, watch The Legend Of Bagger Vance and chill out.

post #779 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post

I agree. We should all just take a step back, watch The Legend Of Bagger Vance/Green Mile double feature and chill out.

 

Fixed.

post #780 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

I just want to say I didn't mean to start a race riot in here!  Can't we all just get along?

 

Well, at least no one got shot over it.

 

ETA:  Mystery solved.  The reason Daryl's not a caricature is because of Norman Reedus:

 

Quote:

There was an early script with a scene where, after the Sophia's death, Lori comes up to me and I'm taking all my brother's drugs, and that's just really not what I wanted this guy to be. I wanted him to be embarrassed of the way he grew up, and to be embarrassed when some racial slur came out of Merle's mouth. So I talked to the writers and, to their credit, they helped me develop this character, and I think one of the reasons Daryl's so popular is because he's fighting against this terrible thing he was doomed to become.

 

 

And on Daryl's motivation for staying with the group, which, again, seems to be 99% Norman Reedus, 1% writers:

Quote:

Feeling wanted is a big deal to Daryl; he's never had people rely on him before, and that's what keeps him there. He could take off on his own and still make it, so why is he staying? You have to find all these different reasons to make it interesting for him to want to stay, and I think having this feeling of self-worth, maybe for the first time in his life, is one of those reasons. There are more things to do with this guy, still, and I'd hate to just throw it away to be a cartoon.

 

 

(basically the opposite of a "safety in numbers" mentality)

 

GQ interview


Edited by yt - 12/5/12 at 12:18pm
post #781 of 1655

So, the writers DO tend to come up with the laziest characterizations possible?

post #782 of 1655
There was a line from Shane last season about Daryl "all meth-ed out of your mind with that necklace of ears likely scared Sophia . . . ".

I would have liked that scene between Lori and Daryl. The idea that the zombie apocalypse offers him a road to recovery, when most addicts would have selected themselves out by now, is a good one.
post #783 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post

ETA:  Mystery solved.  The reason Daryl's not a caricature is because of Norman Reedus:

Well, my respect for Norman Reedus just went up.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangy View Post

So, the writers DO tend to come up with the laziest characterizations possible?

This would pretty much confirm it.  Now we just need some scene with Glen talking about how good he was at math.

post #784 of 1655
Or teaching practicing tai chi in the morning.
post #785 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by yt View Post

And on Daryl's motivation for staying with the group, which, again, seems to be 99% Norman Reedus, 1% writers:

 

(basically the opposite of a "safety in numbers" mentality)

 

This is actually a common practice among actors, who will make up their own motivation for the character, regardless of what's in the text (Christopher Walken actually removes all punctuation in his dialogue on the page).  The character itself is still informed by the writers...the motivation fuels the performance for the actor.  So while Reedus has his own methods for acting the character, the text never goes into why he's staying and defending the group.  This is not really a bad thing though, it's ambiguous...so any answer a viewer comes up with is correct.

post #786 of 1655

rewatched Season 3 again, and I like that the characters brought up the hole on the other side of the prison.  Sure, it was in passing, but it was a nice bit of info. 

post #787 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evi View Post

Taking it away from the race thing for a second, am I the only one who thinks JUDITH is a terrible old-person name for a baby?

 

 

Yeah, she's totally gonna get made fun of at schoo....oh nm. 

post #788 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan View Post

I think we're all missing the really big issue here, which is that zombie shows and movies by necessity have to handwave how the zombie apocalypse came to pass in the first place, because realistically, it'd be snuffed out almost straight away.

 

 

 

Eh, I think World War Z goes into how it happens, and it makes sense:

 

- initial inability to realize that a bite means you are going to become a zombie (I'd assume in most cases at first, you'd get a bite, and if you even went to the hospital it would be tetanus shot, aids test, stitches if needed, go home)

 

- failure to accept what is happening; I'm not sure if this applies to the "real world" ("there is no such thing as a zombie") or a world where the concept of "zombie" doesn't exist

 

- by the time authorities realize what is happening, you have a LOT of infected out there who may or may not be zombies yet, but are just waiting to turn and infect more people

 

- even IF the authorities realize what's happening and attempt to take control, people will do dumb shit (ref. the opening scenes in the tenement in the original Dawn of the Dead)

 

- as per WWZ, conventional weapons/tactics just won't work vs the zombies. You can't cut off supply lines, artillery doesn't do anything except in the case of a direct hit, the enemy suffers no casualties (i.e. if an enemy soldier gets an arm/leg blown off, or his guts shot out, he's out of the fight; zombies, not so much); not to mention that if one of them wounds YOU, you become "the enemy" - no matter how vile the Nazis were, if Hitler bit you, you didn't turn into one.  

 

- one could nuke the affected areas to contain them, but this may lead to a Return of the Living Dead scenario where it just makes it worse

 

 

One reason I like the idea of slow zombies is that they have that inexorable force of nature thing going - one-on-one, yeah, you're faster and smarter, and if you have anything resembling a weapon, you're OK. Against two, it's dicier. But say you dispatch two, and another shows up, and you wipe out THAT one, then two more....they just keep coming and if you tire or slip up for a second, you're done. To me, that's disconcerting - all it takes is one small mistake, and they KEEP COMING and won't let you rest or regroup. 

post #789 of 1655
Quote:
- no matter how vile the Nazis were, if Hitler bit you, you didn't turn into one.

 

Somebody call AMC - I think I've got an idea for their next show.

post #790 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evi View Post

Taking it away from the race thing for a second, am I the only one who thinks JUDITH is a terrible old-person name for a baby?

A Perfect Circle is the first thing that comes to my mind when I hear the name Judith. I guess she will grow up to be a dark rocker type.

Quote:
Originally Posted by wydren View Post

Well, my respect for Norman Reedus just went up.

 

This would pretty much confirm it.  Now we just need some scene with Glen talking about how good he was at math.

How did Glen get a hottie like Maggie? Its an ancient Chinese secret.

post #791 of 1655
post #792 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavez View Post

One reason I like the idea of slow zombies is that they have that inexorable force of nature thing going - one-on-one, yeah, you're faster and smarter, and if you have anything resembling a weapon, you're OK. Against two, it's dicier. But say you dispatch two, and another shows up, and you wipe out THAT one, then two more....they just keep coming and if you tire or slip up for a second, you're done. To me, that's disconcerting - all it takes is one small mistake, and they KEEP COMING and won't let you rest or regroup. 

Yeah, but then again you may get saved by a woman who may or may not be a magical negro.

post #793 of 1655
post #794 of 1655

 

Man, Carol needs to step up her game!

post #795 of 1655

Nicely done National Post!

post #796 of 1655

Wow. Dale was truly worthless.
post #797 of 1655

So, I haven't been in this thread this season, as there's just too much to catch up on, but has anyone been making jokes about this show having a Time Lord named Black Guy who is just regenerates in a new form every time he dies? 

post #798 of 1655

I'm starting to think this show takes place in a Star Wars reality.  Sith, there is always two.  Black guys, there is always one.  No more.  No less. 

post #799 of 1655
Thread Starter 

Black Thunderdome. Two enter, and one leaves.
 

post #800 of 1655
Quote:
Originally Posted by Navidson View Post

Black Thunderdome. Two enter, and one leaves.
 

...but to do that, you'd need 2 black male characters alive, and in the same room, at the same time. 

 

 

Never happen. 

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