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The Walking Dead Season 3 - Page 17
- Ambler
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[deep trailer voice]"In a world...where only one black man is allowed to exist..."[/deep trailer voice]
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What was the point of killing T- Dog? Wouldn't it have meant more if he died in the assault on Woodbury? And poor Oscar was shaping up to be an actual character ("I never begged for my life." "Hey! Slippers!" "Even though you guys have done nothing but mistrust and abuse me, I'm going to go help you on this rescue mission"). It just grinds my gears a bit, but then Chad Coleman gets me excited because he's someone with actual acting talent, so I look forward to all scene involving him and hope he's absorbed enough souls of previous black characters to stay alive for a long enough time.
Is it obvious to everyone else that The Governor is going to make the Dixon Bros BATTLE TO THE DEATH IN THE ARENA? Or maybe that's just me hoping it'll happen.
Oh, and after watching this, does anyone else think that the show would be EXPONENTIALLY improved if Rick was conked on the head and suddenly became a snarky Brit?
C'mon, admit it: You'd much rather follow THAT guy week to week than Rick, am I right folks?
And now, for fellow comic book readers:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
-Regarding Lori's death: initially I was mad, not because I liked the character, but because we won't get that HOLY SHIT moment from the comics. Then I thought....well, wait, the baby is still in play, isn't she? And the baby dying was half the shock. And if you just replace the person carrying said baby, you can still have that moment. Carol I assume, because poor Melissa McBride STILL isn't a regular, plus it would give Daryl some angst as well as Rick.
-Another fun theory: I was disappointed they dropped the whole murder mystery serial killer plot line. as I assumed that was the only reason Beth still exists. Re-reading the comic, however, an idea hit me: At one point the depressed and grieving Allen is floated as a possible murder suspect, and at the time, I thought that would be a great misdirect. I mean, making it one of the prisoners is a bit TOO obvious, isn't it? And with Allen on the show now, and Axel being set up as having an interest in Beth, it's got me thinking: Beth will end up dead, Axel will at once be the prime suspect, he'll nearly be hung for it...only for Allen to almost kill again. I'm guessing Carol ends up with the facial scar. What do you guys think, does this seem likely?
-I also really dig that they're starting Tyrese off as a pretty decent guy. It makes me wonder if they'll keep him that way, or if the daughter murder/suicide scene will happen in the show, thus taking him down a dark path. Also, I'm really, really, REALLY hoping the "Rick. What kept you?" moment makes it in here, only because I can already see everybody moaning about how yet ANOTHER black character has been killed, only for them to open the doors and reveal him standing there with dozens of dead zombies. C'mon, that was AWESOME. Put it in the show, guys!
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Not if you needed a radiator hose.
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Nope, I'm 99% sure that the theory brought up earlier is correct - the governor is using Merle as a double agent to get into the prison. It's the only thing that explains why Merle wouldn't be screaming bloody murder when accused. Considering everything he knows he could ruin the governor quite easily if he wanted to.
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But if Merle had killed Michonne like he said he did, his daughter would still be "alive" and he would have two eyes.
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Then when he meets David Morrissey's character he can say....well you know.
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He's got reason to be pissed at Merle, but it's still the only thing that, to me, explains why he'd do such a public frame-job and why Merle pretty much takes it without any dispute.
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Didn't Merle look stunned when the Governor put him in to fight his brother?
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He didn't look happy, but to me thats just play-acting. If Merle were truly stabbed in the back out of nowhere, I'd imagine he'd go mental denying his involvement not to mention that the governor would be taking a huge risk. Merle could just start spouting the truth in front of everybody.
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You're acting like these characters act consistently enough a certain way that we can make reasonable predictions on what they will or won't do.
- Monster Pete
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exactly. Merle being a double agent is as dumb as people saying he was going to be the Governor after Season 1.
What would be the point of accusing Merle in public if he was sending him in as a double agent? It's not like anyone from Rick's group was watching. Hell, Daryl probably didn't even hear that. W ould have been easier to throw Daryl in a prison cell, and just have Merle already in there waiting, claiming the Governor betrayed him if he was going to infiltrate the prison
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- Evi
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It's not dumb at all. It's actually a smart move on the Governor's part, he even mentions the idea of a mole earlier in the episode. I have to add that there are a couple of things in the Preview at the end that back this theory up.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
You see Daryl escaping. And then they have a shot of Glenn asking him "What the hell is he doing here??" implying that he brought Merle along to the prison.
Merle is the dim, hotheaded racist. Suddenly having him pop up as the svengali would've made no sense, not to mention that it would have lowered the stakes, since the gang's already beaten him once.
Edited by Evi - 12/9/12 at 12:45am
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Yeah, but he's just learning of the news at the rally...and seeing his brother for the first time in like forever. He's literally in shock. Plus, what is he really going to say that's not going to sound like a desperate plea from a "terrorist"?
Not to speak for the other posters, but having Merle being a double agent could very well be a possibility, but if it happens or if it doesn't happen, it's still a dumb idea either way.
ETA: BTW, and this will never happen (but I would love to be proven wrong), AMC could have really done the fans a treat through a trick: Create a false set of clips for the midseason finale's sneak preview, misleading fans into cheap and easy expectations for the fates of certain characters going into the second half of the third season.
Edited by Agent Z - 12/9/12 at 1:19am
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Who had the scythe kill in s3? According to that graphic, there was at least one. I thought it would have to be in season 2 where all they did was hang out at the farm but shit says otherwise.
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Yeah, but he's just learning of the news at the rally...and seeing his brother for the first time in like forever. He's literally in shock. Plus, what is he really going to say that's not going to sound like a desperate plea from a "terrorist"?
Not to speak for the other posters, but having Merle being a double agent could very well be a possibility, but if it happens or if it doesn't happen, it's still a dumb idea either way.
Well the guys have proven themselves to be worthy adversaries and are locked up in a fortress, so I think getting someone on the inside is the opposite of a dumb idea. Anyway, it's still just a theory which means I might very well end up eating my words when the show's back on, but it's simply the only thing that makes sense to me as to not only why the Governor would make the callout so publicly but also why the writers would make the practical change in the dynamic. The idea of Daryl and Merle being on opposite sides and eventually having to pick is one of the most interesting things the show has going for it at the moment, and I don't get why they'd ditch it, especially after making a show for a couple of episodes now of Merle reassuring the Governor that no matter what happens, he's on his side.
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It's not dumb at all. It's actually a smart move on the Governor's part, he even mentions the idea of a mole earlier in the episode. I have to add that there are a couple of things in the Preview at the end that back this theory up.
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
You see Daryl escaping. And then they have a shot of Glenn asking him "What the hell is he doing here??" implying that he brought Merle along to the prison.
Merle is the dim, hotheaded racist. Suddenly having him pop up as the svengali would've made no sense, not to mention that it would have lowered the stakes, since the gang's already beaten him once.
Okay, we see Daryl escaping? What does that prove besides that Daryl, you know, the guy who can live 6 months alone with nothing but a knife and a lighter, escaped? Maybe, if Merle is with them, he switched sides? You know, being accused of treason would cause many people to jump sides.
Based on everything we've seen, what makes you think that after Merle lied to him, the Governor is going to trust him with infiltrating the prison? That lie lead to him losing his eye, and his daughter (in his eyes). If he has any shred of doubt in Merle, do you really think he would trust Merle running off with his brother (you know, the one Merle has constantly been talking the Governor about). I think it's more believable that maybe Andrea helps them escape considering all that she had just witnessed.
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Okay, we see Daryl escaping? What does that prove besides that Daryl, you know, the guy who can live 6 months alone with nothing but a knife and a lighter, escaped? Maybe, if Merle is with them, he switched sides? You know, being accused of treason would cause many people to jump sides.
What it proves is that despite having people calling out for their blood, both Daryl and Merle end up in the prison. And yes, all you said makes sense from an audience point of view, but I still expect Merle to stab them in the back.
Based on everything we've seen, what makes you think that after Merle lied to him, the Governor is going to trust him with infiltrating the prison? That lie lead to him losing his eye, and his daughter (in his eyes). If he has any shred of doubt in Merle, do you really think he would trust Merle running off with his brother (you know, the one Merle has constantly been talking the Governor about). I think it's more believable that maybe Andrea helps them escape considering all that she had just witnessed.
Merle lied for a cowardly reason but he didn't betray him. When it comes down to it, considering how much he hates Rick's group and how badly he'd want to get back in his good graces, I imagine the governor knows he's still with him. It's not about picking him over his brother, since the governor's said time and again that he'll spare Daryl.
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i could see something along the lines of the Governor telling Merle he has to do something, in order to spare his brothers life.
"you go into that prison, and take them out from the inside.... or i kill you, and your brother right now"
something like that.
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No, it really is, and doesn't make an ounce of sense when you actually watch the episode. Merle is the direct reason why Michonne was there and why she went after the Governor in the first place. If Merle killed her, she wouldn't have came back, killed the Governor's daughter, and got into a fight with him which resulted in her stabbing him in the eye. What's more, Merle lied to him about killing her. So you can be sure he is pleanty pissed off at Merle. I mean, did you not see the scene where the Governor told Merle he was "attacked". Look at that face.
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For about a minute, I thought Merle could be Rick's Jane Cobb; being good at violence makes up for him being a not too bright asshole with a high opinion of himself. Then I realized Glen and Maggie wouldn't stand for it.
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The mole theory makes tons of sense when you consider that the Governor is a crazy person and using Merle's lies as a way to manipulate him is totally his M.O.
- Evi
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What would be the point of accusing Merle in public if he was sending him in as a double agent? It's not like anyone from Rick's group was watching. Hell, Daryl probably didn't even hear that. W ould have been easier to throw Daryl in a prison cell, and just have Merle already in there waiting, claiming the Governor betrayed him if he was going to infiltrate the prison
Whats the point of accusing him in public if he was just pissed off about his lie? It's not like they need a fall guy, so why falsify Merle's involvement when he could just as easily say "you lied to me about Michonne!" and chew him out privately or even shoot him then and there, blaming it on Rick's group. It does, on the other hand, make sense if he's sending Merle in as a double agent. The governor knows that the moment Merle gets to the prison, Rick (if he has any brains) is going to be immediately suspicious and probably even lock him up. His best play is therefore making a huge show of just how angry he is at Merle, proving to Daryl without a doubt that they are on the outs and giving him and everyone at the prison a reason to believe that Merle is on their side now.
- t3cii
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Whats the point of accusing him in public if he was just pissed off about his lie? It's not like they need a fall guy, so why falsify Merle's involvement when he could just as easily say "you lied to me about Michonne!" and chew him out privately or even shoot him then and there, blaming it on Rick's group. It does, on the other hand, make sense if he's sending Merle in as a double agent. The governor knows that the moment Merle gets to the prison, Rick (if he has any brains) is going to be immediately suspicious and probably even lock him up. His best play is therefore making a huge show of just how angry he is at Merle, proving to Daryl without a doubt that they are on the outs and giving him and everyone at the prison a reason to believe that Merle is on their side now.
But none of your theory makes sense in the context of the episode. His daughter was just killed, and he just lost an eye. And it's because of Merle. He's not thinking long term, here. That's why it's kind of ridiculous to think he has come up with a plan with Merle. He even says to Merle "You wanted your brother, well you got him", out of earshot from the rest of the people there. Why would he say that if the crowd couldn't hear him?
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Count me as another person who thinks the idea that Merle is a double agent is dumb. Aside from the fact that, as has been mentioned, the Governor lost his daughter and his eye because of Merle's lie, what hasn't been mentioned is why would the governor (who has been shown to be a shrewed and cunning individual) think that Rick's group would take Merle back after what they had done to Maggie and Glenn? Even if Daryl wanted to take Merle in, it would be a HUGE stretch to assume that the rest of their group would be cool with it.
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But none of your theory makes sense in the context of the episode. His daughter was just killed, and he just lost an eye. And it's because of Merle. He's not thinking long term, here. That's why it's kind of ridiculous to think he has come up with a plan with Merle. He even says to Merle "You wanted your brother, well you got him", out of earshot from the rest of the people there. Why would he say that if the crowd couldn't hear him?
It's actually right within Daryl's earshot, Daryl's even looking at him as he says it. And it does make sense, if you think of the governor as a Machiavelli who's been driven to extreme measures to demolish the whole group. Look, it's never cut-and-dried when it comes to theories like this, because if the writers intend to pull a twist they're going to try make it plausible as possible, so of course they'd give the audience incentive to believe that the governor is really blaming Merle. I merely favor this theory, not only because it explains a bunch of stuff that didn't make sense to me but also because, from a writer's POV, its the one most ripe with dramatic potential. It's either going to be Rick, his group and a disgruntled Merle (who knows pretty much everything) versus the governor, or it's going to be Rick and his group versus the governor and the enemy in their midst. I know which one I think is most interesting.
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The governor using Merle as a double agent wouldn't even work.
It makes no sense because Rick's group is composed of Glen and Maggie...who Merle was merciless with in the interrogation. And the governor knows this. There is no way in hell they would allow Merle into the prison...the governor is not stupid. There is no use for Merle anymore...Rick's group wouldn't take him and he's betrayed the governor, getting his daughter killed and causing the loss of his eye. Merle is dead fucking meat unless he escapes.
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The governor using Merle as a double agent wouldn't even work.
It makes no sense because Rick's group is composed of Glen and Maggie...who Merle was merciless with in the interrogation. And the governor knows this. There is no way in hell they would allow Merle into the prison...the governor is not stupid. There is no use for Merle anymore...Rick's group wouldn't take him and he's betrayed the governor, getting his daughter killed and causing the loss of his eye. Merle is dead fucking meat unless he escapes.
True, but Merle was an asshole to everybody before they got separated. Yeah he beat up Glen, but I don't think he's that much more of an asshole now than he was back then. But the group needs Daryl. I think if Daryl decides the Dixon brothers are a package deal going forward, Rick is gonna have to listen.
Seriously, these morons are so screwed without Daryl.
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True, but Merle was an asshole to everybody before they got separated. Yeah he beat up Glen, but I don't think he's that much more of an asshole now than he was back then. But the group needs Daryl. I think if Daryl decides the Dixon brothers are a package deal going forward, Rick is gonna have to listen.
Seriously, these morons are so screwed without Daryl.
Yes, Merle was an asshole before all this, and it's all the more reason for Rick to leave him out...it's actually more damning then just the interrogation... I don't see Glen or Maggie staying with the group if Rick even considers letting Merle in, and why would Rick even think about letting a psychopath like that near Carl and his newborn baby? He's not even going to consider it. If it comes to that he will give Daryl the ultimatum.
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Everyone also knows that Merle would kill Rick the first chance he got.
This season, the writers have earned just enough faith in them that I'm taking the "Trojan Merle" off the table. It's not possible. It's more likely that Andrea will become all of our favorite character.
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True, but Merle was an asshole to everybody before they got separated. Yeah he beat up Glen, but I don't think he's that much more of an asshole now than he was back then. But the group needs Daryl. I think if Daryl decides the Dixon brothers are a package deal going forward, Rick is gonna have to listen.
Seriously, these morons are so screwed without Daryl.
This isn't Survivor. While Daryl is a valuable member of their group, he's not irreplaceable. Michonne will be joining their group, and inevitably so will Tyrese and his people. These are people who can contribute.
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You're all acting like it won't happen just because it's kind of dumb and wouldn't make sense.
- Agent Z
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I think the bigger question looming, from the sneak preview, is
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)why is everyone suddenly, vocally questioning Rick's leadership back at the prison?
What is the turning point in the second half of the season to account for that?
- Evi
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Yes, Merle was an asshole before all this, and it's all the more reason for Rick to leave him out...it's actually more damning then just the interrogation... I don't see Glen or Maggie staying with the group if Rick even considers letting Merle in, and why would Rick even think about letting a psychopath like that near Carl and his newborn baby? He's not even going to consider it. If it comes to that he will give Daryl the ultimatum.
Of course Rick would consider it. Apart from the Daryl thing, Merle can use his knowledge of Woodbury as leverage. He knows everything about the place. A guy like that would be a massive strategic advantage in the case that the governor decides to start an all-out war.
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Yes, but that would also be a reason for the Governor not to risk it. Once at the prison, Merle could easily side with his brother and Rick (and really, at that point, why wouldn't he?) and Woodbury would truly be fucked.
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I didn't really understand why Merle just didn't stick more closely to the truth*. Instead of saying he had her head and sword, he could have just said that he shot her (which he did), they all got swamped by walkers (more or less what happened) and when all the walkers and the rest of his men were dead, her body was gone and her sword with it (kind of true, just that she got away on her own steam, not carried away in pieces). It covered him from the possibility of her not dying and turning up again (after all, if anyone knows anything about surviving against the odds, it's Merle) and it's not like he didn't have time to think up a response. It may not have altered the outcome at the end of the episode but still, it could scarcely have made it worse over what he did say, could it? ...
Then, there's also just telling the actual truth (apart from about whacking that guy) that he did wound her and she might die even though she got away. What would have been the penalty for failure anyway? It couldn't have been that bad could it? Furthermore, by bringing in Glen and Maggie as prisoners, that was an unexpected bonus and worth some countering points, surely?
It just seems like he took a much worse option in lying for little perceived benefit over telling (something closer to) the truth.
(*well yes, there was the script written for Michael Rooker but if that wasn't a factor ...)
- Ambler
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Knowing about Woodsbury is an advantage if they were going to attack the place, which they're not. They got what they came for. And if Rick is worried about being attacked at the prison, he's already seen their defenses in the shootout, so he has a very good idea of what to expect.
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I can't believe people are really considering that Glenn and Maggie would say "Hey no hard feelings. We're ok with the fact that you beat one of us to a pulp and threw a walker at him, and were ok with your demented leader sexually assaulting one of us, we need Daryl so come on back to the group". Aside from the absurdity of that happening, would Rick and the others ever trust Merle not to do something equally or more horrible if they DID let him in?
And Merle's knowledge of Woodbury (even if Rick and the others did want to attack it, which I can't imagine they would unless it held one of their own) is not enough to circumvent what Merle has done.
Edit: Oh, and I forgot "Were about to EXECUTE us", lol.
Edited by Agent of Chaos - 12/11/12 at 8:23am
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I can't believe people are really considering that Glenn and Maggie would say "Hey no hard feelings. We're ok with the fact that you beat one of us to a pulp and threw a walker at him, and were ok with your demented leader sexually assaulting one of us, we need Daryl so come on back to the group". Aside from the absurdity of that happening, would Rick and the others ever trust Merle not to do something equally or more horrible if they DID let him in?
And Merle's knowledge of Woodbury (even if Rick and the others did want to attack it, which I can't imagine they would unless it held one of their own) is not enough to circumvent what Merle has done.
Yup.
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I can't believe people are really considering that Glenn and Maggie would say "Hey no hard feelings. We're ok with the fact that you beat one of us to a pulp and threw a walker at him, and were ok with your demented leader sexually assaulting one of us, we need Daryl so come on back to the group". Aside from the absurdity of that happening, would Rick and the others ever trust Merle not to do something equally or more horrible if they DID let him in?
And Merle's knowledge of Woodbury (even if Rick and the others did want to attack it, which I can't imagine they would unless it held one of their own) is not enough to circumvent what Merle has done.
Edit: Oh, and I forgot "Were about to EXECUTE us", lol.
But those are all details that can be worked around. Look, I'm talking from a place of thinking the theory is true, but if it is it really wouldn't be that difficult for the writers to concoct a situation where, no matter what Merle has done, his knowledge of Woodbury and the working of the governor's army would be too valuable to just let go. I mean, when a dude's launching an all-out assault on you, having his ex right-hand man there to share his strategies could prove kinda handy.
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And I'm saying that given what Merle has done to key members of the team, the idea of them ever accepting him no matter what "strategic knowlege" he may have is insane. Further, as I indicated, even in the extremely (as in, no way in hell) offchance they could decide to just let bygones be bygones about it THERE IS NO WAY THEY WOULD TRUST LETTING HIM INTO THEIR MIDST NO MATTER WHAT HE KNOWS.
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But it's really not that insane, as I said, it's merely a situation the writers can concoct if they want to. I'm definitely not saying they'd simply let bygones be bygones but if the governor and an army 5 times the size of Rick's group are threatening their lives, they might start seeing the wisdom in "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"
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Haha anything's possible. But if it does happen I'm editing all my posts to say that I was certain he'd be dead in the first five minutes.
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If Merle becomes the inside man for Rick's camp I would probably stop watching the show. That's how insanely stupid it is. I think the writing is kind of sub-standard, but I don't think it's as bad as Evi is making it out to be.
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Count me as another person who thinks the idea that Merle is a double agent is dumb. Aside from the fact that, as has been mentioned, the Governor lost his daughter and his eye because of Merle's lie, what hasn't been mentioned is why would the governor (who has been shown to be a shrewed and cunning individual) think that Rick's group would take Merle back after what they had done to Maggie and Glenn? Even if Daryl wanted to take Merle in, it would be a HUGE stretch to assume that the rest of their group would be cool with it.
All this Merle=mole talk is even more ridiculous than yesterweek's magical negro debate. You might as well argue that the Governor will be revealed to be Khan.
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KHHHHHAAAAAAAANNNNN!!!!
Okay, I'm done.
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