SKYFALL Post-Release - Page 9

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Originally Posted by MrSaxon 

 

Oh man. Don't remind me about Detention. Just thinking about that movie makes me want Daniel Craig to walk into my room and break my neck. And it has to be Daniel Craig. I doubt Roger Moore would have the strength.

That movie is probably the biggest letdown of the year so far for me. It was held in such high regard that finally when I saw it I was like "This is it? This is what everyone's been praising?"

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Originally Posted by Gabe T 

You can disagree with someone, and think they're wrong, and not be an asshole.

 

Duke's NEVER mean to anyone here, he's frequently complimentary, and he's funny. He grades films on a different criteria than some of us, and we won't see eye to eye with him. That doesn't mean you have to be assholes.

Exactly. There can be an honest discussion that comes from one person that likes the film, and the other one who doesn't, and there not be any name calling. Whoever resorts to that is the true idiot.

He is always nice, and yeah, I find him funny too. I won't lie, he and I tend to like some of the same films, so there's that too, but he seems like a good guy, and he always has reasons for why he likes or doesn't like a film. He just says them in a unique and humorous fashion that I dig.

I think we need a "Duke.... Fleed..... Rules! No, he.... Sucks!" thread where you guys can hash this out.

I think people need to stop being assholes and stop making personal insults during movie discussions. We can hash that out pretty much anywhere, since some people wonder why we get so few new posters around the boards lately.

Anyway, back to bullshit. Goldfinger> Skyfall > Dark Knight Rises > Prometheus. Or something.

Yeah, back on topic, no I didn't think Kincaid was originally written as Connery being in it. The only thing "Connery-esque" that struck me was Bond's home being in Scotland. Other than that, I was all "Cool! It's Albert Finney and he looks exactly like my Father In Law!"

I totally heard M say "I fucked up." also.

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Originally Posted by Judas Booth 

Question: did M say 'I fucked up' when they first arrived at Skyfall? It sure sounded like it.

She said "I've fucked this all up, haven't I?" or something close to that.  For a character who refuses to cry, refuses to flinch at guns in her face, and refuses to show any lack of dignity, poise, or strength...  I thought it was great that she resorted to profanity at what must have been her lowest moment.  Considering her testimony and the poem she read, it must have been quietly devastating for her to believe all those deaths were ultimately her doing.

Was that the first time the f-bomb got dropped in a Bond film?  If so, I'm glad it went to such a personal and painful moment, not a cheap laugh.  And I'm glad Dench did it, as I've been quietly hoping for a while her M would say "fuck" at one moment during her run.

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Originally Posted by Gabe T 

I think people need to stop being assholes and stop making personal insults during movie discussions. We can hash that out pretty much anywhere, since some people wonder why we get so few new posters around the boards lately.

 

Devin was one of the biggest assholes on the board and he took most of the posters here with him, so this statement holds no water. 

As much as Devin pissed me off sometimes, at least he didn't foster this "everyone gets a cookie" mentality. All opinions are not created equal. If someone wants to put some thought into what they post I'm happy to engage their opinion even if it's different than mine. And I don't make personal attacks except to people's taste, because if you choose to flaunt your bad taste, don't expect to not get called out for it. I certainly don't expect a free pass for my taste transgressions. 

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Originally Posted by Rene (Mr.Eko) 

Yeah, back on topic, no I didn't think Kincaid was originally written as Connery being in it. The only thing "Connery-esque" that struck me was Bond's home being in Scotland. Other than that, I was all "Cool! It's Albert Finney and he looks exactly like my Father In Law!"

 

 

I totally heard M say "I fucked up." also.

I believe (and I'm sure some of the Bondians - yeah, I just made that up - here will correct me if I'm wrong) that Flemming gave Bond Scottish antecedents, in honor of Connery's movie portrayal, so it makes sense that his childhood home would be there.

EDIT: Looks like Doc got there before me.

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Originally Posted by stelios 

 

In terms of deaths, M's was treated with the same importance as Vesper's and Tracy's. Should they have done another half a movie like QoS to show that Bond gave a shit?

I disagree. On Her Majesty's Secret Service ended with Bond a broken man, cradling his dead wife in his arms. Casino Royale ended with Bond hardened by Vesper's death and on the trail to avenge her. Skyfall ended with Bond basically saying "So that happened. What's next?". 

No, that's incorrect. 

 

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Originally Posted by Slim 

 

"Suspect" was a turn of phrase on my part. I thought the movie made fairly plain Bond's feelings about M's death. If you thought they handled similar material better in CASINO ROYALE, I won't quibble-- it's the better movie. But M's death certainly didn't seem cheap or pointless to me. 

 

ETA: Gabe does make a good point above. SKYFALL was pretty determined to set the table for future installments-- e.g. moving Dench out and Fiennes in. If the strain shows for some folks, I can respect that.

Fair enough on both points. No matter how you feel about it, Skyfall is not a perfect movie. For some of us, those imperfections were more profound than for others. 

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Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega 

Forgive me it's just that this quote:

 

 

Sounds like. "Yeah the movie's shit! But it still beats Skyfall!"

 

Which is silly.

I could just as easily say "At least Skyfall had some amazing cinematography and good acting" in the context of a discussion about Die Another Day. Neither is a statement of overall preference, but rather a comparison of certain aspects of each movie. 

Had I actually phrased it like that, I would agree with you. 

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Originally Posted by Sebastian OB 

If you think the movie is about Bond having to save M, you've missed the point of the movie. Bond having to save M is the engine that drives the plot. The movie is about what price must these people pay for the life they have chosen. What is the cost of "getting the job done"? 

I don't think the movie was about Bond having to save M. I understand there were bigger themes at play. However, in terms of the stakes - the thing Bond was trying to achieve - the movie made that entirely about saving M's life. There was no other goal for Bond to fulfill. And it wasn't even so much that he failed at his one goal. It was how the movie handled that failure in that it wasn't really a failure. They just hit the reset button and moved on. 

Bond didn't get the job done, so the cost of that is moot. The point was really more what is the cost of not getting the job done? And according to this movie, nothing. So then the question is, why should I care if the job gets done or not? 

I don't have a problem with M dying in of itself. Only with the way this movie handled it. There were better ways to depict M's death and the impact of it. Casino Royale dealt with the same plot point in a much more artful and poignant manner. 

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Originally Posted by Sebastian OB 

Devin was one of the biggest assholes on the board and he took most of the posters here with him, so this statement holds no water. 

 

As much as Devin pissed me off sometimes, at least he didn't foster this "everyone gets a cookie" mentality. All opinions are not created equal. If someone wants to put some thought into what they post I'm happy to engage their opinion even if it's different than mine. And I don't make personal attacks except to people's taste, because if you choose to flaunt your bad taste, don't expect to not get called out for it. I certainly don't expect a free pass for my taste transgressions. 

Just don't be an asshole. How hard of a rule is that? We can disagree on stupid shit and not say shitty things to each other. Why does this merit a debate?

Back on topic. On Her Majesty's Secret Service > Skyfall > Fast Five > Monkeybone.

Yeah, there's all kinds of mistakes that end up in print magazines like that. Even if they didn't know that detail from the books, they should have known it was mentioned by Alec Trevalyn in Goldeneye.

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Originally Posted by TCD 

I disagree. On Her Majesty's Secret Service ended with Bond a broken man, cradling his dead wife in his arms. Casino Royale ended with Bond hardened by Vesper's death and on the trail to avenge her. Skyfall ended with Bond basically saying "So that happened. What's next?". 

 

What were you hoping he would do? Everyone responsible for M's demise is now dead (thanks to Bond). Who is he going to go after? You get the scene where he reflects on her death, he's given the bulldog which is M's way of telling him that he's needed in the field, and then he goes back to work because there's work to be done.

That's what it kinda sounds like. But I honestly can't make heads or tails out of your complaints.

Exactly! Her death is treated seriously, Bond failed to protect her, and he goes on.

We don't need Quantum of Solace or the opening of Diamonds Are Forever here. Bond can feel down without needing to to sit down and have a long talk with somebody about it.

M's dead, he killed the men who caused her death, he's a big boy and professional. Time to move along.

Bond does fail in his mission to keep M alive, but he also denies Silva the satisfaction of killing her, which I think in the context of the story is far more important. 

She was hit in the leg by a gunfight caused by Silva and his henchmen, right?

I would award the kill to Silva, were I the Bond Movie Death Judge.

In a way, didn't M help cause her own death?  She was in the room with a lone henchman (who was on the other side and didn't seem to be suspicious of her presence yet) and tried to fire first, which alerted him and resulted in an exchange of fire.  Bond arrived shortly thereafter.

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Originally Posted by MrSaxon 

 

What were you hoping he would do? Everyone responsible for M's demise is now dead (thanks to Bond). Who is he going to go after? You get the scene where he reflects on her death, he's given the bulldog which is M's way of telling him that he's needed in the field, and then he goes back to work because there's work to be done.

It's not a matter of my expectations. There was an argument being made about how M's death in this movie was handled comparatively to the deaths of Tracy and Vesper. I was just pointing out that the deaths of the latter two were shown to have much greater impact on Bond. Clearly, there are differing opinions about this, but anyone who doesn't recognize that the death of Judy Dench's M was more about clearing the slate than it was about significance to plot or character is fooling themselves. 

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Originally Posted by Sebastian OB 

Bond does fail in his mission to keep M alive, but he also denies Silva the satisfaction of killing her, which I think in the context of the story is far more important. 

First of all, as Gabe rightly pointed out, death by henchman still counts as a point for the main villain.

Secondly, Bond didn't deny shit. Silva had plenty of time to do the deed and chose not to. It was by contrivance that Silva failed to derive satisfaction from M's death. 

And also, I'm not sure Silva's satisfaction was part of the deal. He certainly got satisfaction from repeatedly making M look weak and foolish, but I don't recall him saying he needed to derive satisfaction from her death as well. This was a guy who pointlessly risked his life many times in his nonsensical plot to assassinate M. Clearly, his own survival in this endeavor wasn't paramount. 

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Originally Posted by TCD 

 

It's not a matter of my expectations. There was an argument being made about how M's death in this movie was handled comparatively to the deaths of Tracy and Vesper. I was just pointing out that the deaths of the latter two were shown to have much greater impact on Bond. Clearly, there are differing opinions about this, but anyone who doesn't recognize that the death of Judy Dench's M was more about clearing that slate than it was about significance to plot or character is fooling themselves. 

Tracy was his wife and Vesper was his great love. Of course they both would have had a greater impact on Bond. Dench's Q was an important figure to him but I didn't particularly expect to see him sit around crying whilst drinking martinis following her death.

Silva does not live to see M dead. Vengeance denied. 

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Originally Posted by Sebastian OB 

Silva does not live to see M dead. Vengeance denied. 

Silva spent most of the movie dismantling MI6 and making M look incompetent. Surely, he gets at least partial credit on the vengeance score card. 

Also he knows that M is going to die anyway. That's a win for him in my book.

  I saw Skyfall last night. I'm not ready to say its the best Bond, but its definitely in the top tier.

*The pre-credits sequence is the best ever!

* I approve of the new Q. I was hoping they would bring him back. Not so much for the gadgets, but for the banter between Bond and him.

* The reveal of the Aston Martin with the theme music got a well deserved cheer from the crowd I saw it with.

* The rat story

*Silvia lived up to the hype. His plan did make sense to me. He wanted to humiliate M before killing her.

* I liked the climax at Skyfall. I'm surprised Bond rigging traps has never been done before. Bond has always been about using brains and force to win.

 I don't think Bond fails at his mission. Its safe to assume with Silvia dead, that no more field agent's names will be released. A theme of the movie is that people often die in this business; however those in it have to think of the big picture, to paraphrase M from Casino Royale. I got the vibe that she knew she could die with dignity since Silvia had been stopped.

Bond being the last rat standing is an app description of the character. He may be a rotten bastard, but he is our rotten bastard.

 Put me in the let Duke Fleed have his fun camp; he isn't hurting anyone camp.

Detention > The Third Man. I kid! The Third Man is slightly better.

You are not entitled to an opinion.

You are only entitled to what you can argue for.

Fleed has yet to make a convincing argument for anything. Nor does Gabe, for that matter. 

Right. The next person who mentions Duke Fleed in here will have the living daylights knocked out of them, and will then die another day.

No. Wait. I'll make you watch Die Another Day whilst I watch The Living Daylights in the room next door. That's right. You'll be able to hear a really good movie whilst being forced to watch a really bad one. Enjoy Jinx's sexual innuendos and CGI Brosnan surfing, mother fuckers!

Oh and Chaz - I pretty much agree with everything you wrote there.

Leonard, You are allowed an opinion, as am I and others as well.  Why waste time attacking each other.  This is a...Message Board on the...Greatest Website on the Net...CHUD.COM!  No one here save...Nick Nunziata and his top people, whom actually run the site.  I definitely did not vote for either you or LaurenOrtega to be chief antagonist.  If we disagree let it lie.

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Originally Posted by duke fleed 

If we disagree let it lie.

Live And Let Lie?

(Sorry, sorry. It jumped into my head and wouldn't go away until I had typed it out.)

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Originally Posted by Dr Harford 


Bond did redress it. He made his quip about whiskey which was about refusing to let Silva horrify or wound him emotionally with his senseless killing of that poor girl. Then he proceeds to start murdering people, and then delivers one of his smuggest quips of all time when telling Silva about the radio.
When Bond left the agent to bleed out in the beginning he didn't speak to the man or apologize. He just looked at him and left.
He shared a look with Severine that said a great deal, but at the end of the day she was expendable, and not his priority. She was caught up in some bad business and came to an unfortunate end. I'd expect Bond to get a bit pissed, but not suddenly turn a girl's death into his main reason for revenge. It felt right that he just absorbed her death and moved on. For better or worse, that is Bond. And he is in some ways sort of a sociopath, or at least he cannot allow himself to feel deeply.

That's a fair reading of the scene. I still contend that Silva deserved a nastier end than what he got because of it.

"Last rat standing" was a pretty cool fuck you, though.

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Originally Posted by Gabe T 

Back on topic. On Her Majesty's Secret Service > Skyfall > Fast Five > Monkeybone.

I'm FilmNerdJamie and I approve this message.

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Originally Posted by mcnooj82 

 

It's especially weird when Bond has a fit about M letting Ronson die at the beginning and about "Take the bloody shot!"  You'd think such things would make Bond (and the movie itself) care more about the lives lost in their profession.

 

It's particularly weird since this movie actively asks us to consider this stuff.  But I guess it's really in a more self-absorbed way.  We don't care about Chinese people and Bond Girls!  Just our own stiff upper lips!

That's the crux of it. The movie sets up this question, but then in the third act becomes "The M Vs. Silva Revenge Hour." I don't feel like Bond really learned or grew from all this craziness, and if we're going to make a movie so Freudian as to have Bond go to his childhood home, blow it up, and have his surrogate mother die in his arms, there should be more of a lasting impact than "M is a dude now."

Also, this is really a quibble, but I hated the way they made the reveals at the end such "GET IT?" lines. "We've never been formally introduced." "With pleasure, M. With pleasure."

Just say "Miss Moneypenny, send 007 in" and "M is waiting for you in his office, 007"  like normal people. The audience will get it.
 

He did pause and put a lot of emphasis on "M" for the cheap seats. Even if he'd just said it conversationally, it would've worked better.
 

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Originally Posted by TCD 

I think it's a bit of stretch to call two men riding a crowded subway train, followed by them briskly walking through the station, an "action set piece". What's in store for Bond 24? 007 quickly getting dressed in hurry to get out the door, followed by a nail-biting taxi ride? I'm not sure if the technology exists to bring such an amazing spectacle to life. 

It's tense build-up to action. Didn't Casino Royale's Miami setpiece include a long sequence of Bond just stalking Ellipsis through an airport?

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Originally Posted by avian 

 

Its tense build-up to action. Didn't Casino Royale's Miami setpiece include a long sequence of Bond just stalking Ellipsis through an airport?

Followed by an all-out foot chase on the tarmac with Bond leaping onto the back of a speeding fuel truck driven by Carlos and clinging to it for dear life while it plows through a bus and barely slips under a landing jumbo jet... Bond then catapults into the cab for some close-quarters fisticuffs while the airport police pursue and shoot at them... Bond dangles from the door as Carlos jumps clear while the truck hemorrhages fuel and careens towards the prototype airbus... Bond pulls himself back into the cab and barely manages to stop the truck before it collides with the airbus... while he's being arrested Bond watches Carlos blow himself up with the explosive charge Bond surreptitiously planted on him, and smiles.

That's an action set piece. 

A brisk walk through a subway station followed by a train derailment (even if it was pretty spectacular) isn't. 

Well, I'm also including Bond running through traffic to get to a courthouse in time to stop an assassination, set to Dame Judi Dench reading Tennyson, and then a gun battle against the forces of darkness. I guess it all depends on whether you include "suspense scenes" along with "action scenes" in the "action sequence" (and no more quotation marks... "now"). To me, a good moment of tension can underscore the action, whereas just wall-to-wall action in the Brosnan tradition can become numbing. 

It's like you're saying that we shouldn't count "one car driving after another car really fast" as part of a car chase, just the actual collisions and people leaning out windows and firing guns.

MrSaxon, Live and Let Lie...Awesome!

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Originally Posted by avian 

Well, I'm also including Bond running through traffic to get to a courthouse in time to stop an assassination, set to Dame Judi Dench reading Tennyson, and then a gun battle against the forces of darkness. I guess it all depends on whether you include "suspense scenes" along with "action scenes" in the "action sequence" (and no more quotation marks... "now"). To me, a good moment of tension can underscore the action, whereas just wall-to-wall action in the Brosnan tradition can become numbing. 

 

It's like you're saying that we shouldn't count "one car driving after another car really fast" as part of a car chase, just the actual collisions and people leaning out windows and firing guns.

An action set piece tends to be elaborate and memorable. That's what separates it from merely an action scene. A car chase is a car chase no matter what. But it doesn't become a set piece until its elevated to something more than just two cars driving really fast. 

There was nothing about the sequence you're describing that was particularly memorable or elaborate except for the train derailment. And that was only one moment in a series of fairly pedestrian scenes.

And I'm not saying there is anything wrong with those scenes. You're right. Suspense and moments of tension can be created via relatively simple means. I actually like all those small-scale sequences in Skyfall, taken on their own. But as whole, the action in the movie just felt anemic. 

There's quite a bit of room between the mindless, non-stop action of the worst of the Brosnan movies, and what they delivered in Skyfall. Casino Royale managed a nice balance between action spectacle and character-driven, gritty realism, so there's no real excuse why Skyfall couldn't do the same.