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SKYFALL Post-Release - Page 14

post #651 of 1198

If you're into silly Bond, who's starring in blacksploitation movies and going to the moon, then sure.  I won't begrudge you that.  I'm the crazy guy who's favorite Bond movies are Casino Royale, Skyfall and Goldeneye.  The cool thing about Bond is there's a lot of diversity for everyone. 

post #652 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by duke fleed View Post

 Bond with Daniel Craig is a...S.P.E.C.T.R.E of itself!  

 

Bond with Daniel Craig is a Quantum of Brilliance! It's a Windfall! 

post #653 of 1198

Freeman, Not silly Bond...Over The Top Spectacle Bond! Leslie Neilsen's Spy Hard, and Don Adams...Smart return as Agent 86 in The Nude Bomb, are examples of Silly Bond Like Films!

post #654 of 1198
post #655 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post

SKYFALL Q&A- Questions Answered

 

I thought it was interesting to learn that they built the room to the measurements of Silva's speech. It makes sense, of course, in hindsight.

post #656 of 1198

I'm unclear on something... If Silva's goal was to discredit M and then kill her, wouldn't shooting her out in the open in the courthouse like that ruin the first part of that plan? Wouldn't that make her a martyr and prove that she was actually right?

post #657 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrknudsen View Post

I'm unclear on something... If Silva's goal was to discredit M and then kill her, wouldn't shooting her out in the open in the courthouse like that ruin the first part of that plan? Wouldn't that make her a martyr and prove that she was actually right?

 

How? She's publicly disgraced. Then one of her own agents who once again escaped from her custody kills her along with several notable members of the government. I don't see how this would make her a martyr.

post #658 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrknudsen View Post

I'm unclear on something... If Silva's goal was to discredit M and then kill her, wouldn't shooting her out in the open in the courthouse like that ruin the first part of that plan? Wouldn't that make her a martyr and prove that she was actually right?

No, because it would have proved that MI6 has no control over the situation they're called in for.

post #659 of 1198

James Bond: rapist?

 

Interesting conversation re: implied consent, ethics of having sex with a sex slave, etc.

post #660 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Blank View Post

James Bond: rapist?

 

Interesting conversation re: implied consent, ethics of having sex with a sex slave, etc.

Haven't read it, but it comes down to context.

post #661 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

Haven't read it, but it comes down to context.


Yeah, my feeling is it isn't rape, but people bring up interesting points in the comments. The original blog entry Metafilter points to is sort of dumb.

post #662 of 1198
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Blank View Post

James Bond: rapist?

Interesting conversation re: implied consent, ethics of having sex with a sex slave, etc.
Definitely appalling that Bond did not get Severine's consent in writing before giving her a good rogering in the shower. Crimes of such severity must not go unpunished. I hope John Logan abandons these neanderthal touches in B24.
post #663 of 1198
I'm off to see it again. I think I'll be able to finalize my post Skyfall rankings after this second showing.
post #664 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Blank View Post

James Bond: rapist?

Interesting conversation re: implied consent, ethics of having sex with a sex slave, etc.

Don't ask Darko Kerim what he thinks about the subject. rolleyes.gif
post #665 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by SAIRUS View Post

Come on! It was a beautiful Ashton Martin.

 

Correction: Craig drives an Aston.  Connery drove the Ashton.

post #666 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

 I'm the crazy guy who's favorite Bond movies are Casino Royale, Skyfall and Goldeneye.  The cool thing about Bond is there's a lot of diversity for everyone. 

 

You're not crazy, those are my favorites as well. 

post #667 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Blank View Post

James Bond: rapist?

 

Interesting conversation re: implied consent, ethics of having sex with a sex slave, etc.


I wasn't particularly fond of the way the character was handled, but the arc of that piece seems to be that sex workers are constitutionally incapable of having adult, consensual relationships. She had set up the champagne glasses while waiting for him, its not a ridiculous leap to surmise what was going on there.

post #668 of 1198

It was a kind of "You have to be James Bond in a James Bond movie to get away with it" scene but rape? Nah. Very much in poor taste but hardly a rape.

 

And rape a sex slave? The movie pretty much spells out that Severine used to be a sex slave, Silva got her out and now she was simply a metaphorical slave.

post #669 of 1198

If I remember correctly, I came across a snippet of a review on Rotten Tomatoes which said there was a tremendous case of "been there, done that" with Skyfall.  I read that well in advance of seeing the film, and I thought, come on, that's just lazy critic writing.  However, I shockingly felt the same way yesterday afternoon after exiting the theatre. I had gone into Skyfall 95% unspoiled, and was excited about that.  In the past, sometimes a little spoiling in advance has helped me understand or value the movie differently, sometimes for the best.  And I've visited this message board many times to see if my lukewarm enthusiasm for something is just me being hard to please, if I missed something in the movie that would help me understand it differently, or if the movie really does have problems in the eyes of other moviegoers.  Well, I can see that there aren't many of us, but there is a vocal minority of us who have almost to a letter the exact same problems with Skyfall.  

 

However, my biggest problems stem from the "been there, done that" issue.  Granted, Bond films have borrowed from each other before, but I don't think I have ever seen so many different plot points lifted wholesale from recent Bond pictures and stacked on top of each other to make a new movie.  "Recent" being the key word there.  If we were going back to Sean Connery or Roger Moore movies and lifting elements wholesale, I'd be less surprised.  But in Skyfall, we're going back to the recent and widely-seen Brosnan films and taking elements out.  

 

  • MI6 Agent turns rogue and creates mayhem?  Goldeneye.  
  • MI6 Agent is abandoned and tortured for months on end, and this causes resentment towards the people who didn't rescue him?  Die Another Day.  
  • MI6 Agent has to undergo tests and prove self to MI6 before they'll let him back on the job?  Die Another Day.  
  • Baddie with personal vendetta against M attacks MI6 Headquarters, complete with part of the building blowing up?  The World Is Not Enough.  
  • MI6 has to relocate to classical, low-tech setting since their main headquarters was attacked?  The World Is Not Enough.
  • Baddie with personal vendetta against M sets up elaborate plot to humiliate her and then kill her?  The World Is Not Enough.
  • A significant person Bond cares about dies, yet this causes Bond to dedicate himself even more to the job at hand?  Casino Royale.
  • Okay, it's the end of the movie and all this crap went down and you lost your girlfriend and you don't follow orders yet you get the job done...Bond, are you sure you're ready to be part of the team?  Quantum of Solace.
  • Resetting Bond to a more hardcore, gadget-less, classic formula?  Casino Royale.

 

Yet there Skyfall went...not even 20 years after the oldest film on that list, Goldeneye.  Yes, this is "reset/reboot Bond," but that's no excuse...not for all of those above plot elements to be present, and not for them to follow so soon after the film they were originally featured in.   

 

Skyfall is well made, beautifully shot, has a memorable villain and scenes/themes that stick with you.  But it cribs so much from recent adventures I found it distracting, and there are quite a few unexplained/nonsensical things over the course of the movie that left me scratching my head.

 

  • Are they suggesting Bond got shot twice in the same spot?  Or was Bond wearing a vest which protected him from Moneypenny's shot, but not the other guy's shrapnel?  There was only one chest wound visible in shirtless shots, so this is a serious question and a potentially ridiculous film flub.
  • During the beautiful neon-on-glass sequence, why does Bond seemingly let that guy assassinate the poor chap in the other building?  
  • If the Aston Martin isn't a Q-Branch model, where did all its gadgets come from?  
  • Bond ultimately failed to protect M, and Ralph Fiennes seems to suggest both M and Bond retire...yet at the end of the movie, Bond still has a job and he's working for the guy who thought he should retire.  I could accept that better if maybe there was a statement like, "You know Bond, we may not totally see eye-to-eye, but you're a clever bastard and you've sacrificed damn near everything for us.  I'd be a fool to let you go."

 

I'm going to see the movie again, and maybe there are things I've missed during the first viewing that will show up and help explain some of my problems with the second.  Also, I'll keep following this board, because I really like seeing everyone's opinions.  

 

Just wanted to add mine to the mix! 

post #670 of 1198

Welcome to Thunderdome, littlenomad. 

post #671 of 1198

littlenomad, you bring up good points about the recycled plot points from more recent, previous Bonds. But I think that it's less a case of lazy cribbing and more of a case of Mendes and Co. have a specific story they want to tell and they don't give a shit if they are plot points that have appeared in other Bonds. Your complaints are specific to being a Bond fan, which is fine, bit you're not viewing the movie as its own entity outside of the franchise baggage. 

post #672 of 1198

TCD, you wandered into this thread basically proclaiming loudly that this movie is a turd so I don't feel bad that you got dogpiled on. Since then you've at least articulated your argument, but I still think you basically wanted a totally different movie than what is there and frankly I don't think the movie you wanted would have been better. 

post #673 of 1198

From that Hitfix interview:

 

 

Quote:
Q: Where did the idea come from to focus on M and Bond?
Mendes: There's edible overtones, right?

 

Oh, entertainment journalists!

post #674 of 1198
Quote:

Originally Posted by littlenomad View Post

 

During the beautiful neon-on-glass sequence, why does Bond seemingly let that guy assassinate the poor chap in the other building?

 

This bothered me too. In fact, I think the whole end of that sequence is oddly staged. Not only does Bond allow Patrice to assassinate somebody, but the way it's edited indicates that Patrice realizes at some point that Bond is sneaking up behind him. He takes the kill shot and then quickly turns and lunges to get a jump on Bond. Which means Patrice was willing to bet that the Double-O agent coming up from behind wasn't going to make a move until after he pulled the trigger. That's a hell of a gamble!

post #675 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

littlenomad, you bring up good points about the recycled plot points from more recent, previous Bonds. But I think that it's less a case of lazy cribbing and more of a case of Mendes and Co. have a specific story they want to tell and they don't give a shit if they are plot points that have appeared in other Bonds. Your complaints are specific to being a Bond fan, which is fine, bit you're not viewing the movie as its own entity outside of the franchise baggage. 

That's true, Sebastian.  Part of the reason I'm open to others' opinions about Skyfall is that I am a lifelong Bond fan, and as such I know I can't experience a new Bond movie in the same way a newcomer or casual fan would.  And it has occurred to me that the Skyfall team wanted to tell a specific story in the Bond Reboot continuity, recycling controversies be damned.  Still, the alleged cribbing is pretty jarring, and I think it's a fair criticism, because without hardcore fans this series would not have continued as long as it has.  Yesterday at the theatre, there were plenty of husband and wife couples, aged 40 and up.  Those people weren't viewing their first Bond film.  

post #676 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

Mendes and Co. have a specific story they want to tell and they don't give a shit if they are plot points that have appeared in other Bonds.

And neither do I. Frankly even if they *did* consciously crib elements I really don't give a shit. Other than GOLDENEYE the Brosnan films range from middling to terrible, so I'm perfectly fine with writers/producers stripping them for parts to use in better movies. But that's just me.
post #677 of 1198

I too am a lifelong (well, since I was 7 anyway) Bond fan and most of the plot points you mentioned didn't occur to me because I was so absorbed in the movie, coupled with the fact that Bond movies always have recycled qualities. I did recognize the Silva/006 similarity right away because GOLDENEYE remains one of my favorites. I see your point, I was just fortunate in that none of these things took me out of the movie. 

 

Also: what Dan said. If filmmakers want to take the good bits from TWINE and DIE ANOTHER DAY and make better Bond films with them, I'm all for it. 

post #678 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sebastian OB View Post

TCD, you wandered into this thread basically proclaiming loudly that this movie is a turd so I don't feel bad that you got dogpiled on. Since then you've at least articulated your argument, but I still think you basically wanted a totally different movie than what is there and frankly I don't think the movie you wanted would have been better. 

 

I don't feel bad about it either. I expressed a contrary opinion in a hostile environment. I knew what I was getting in to. 

 

And yeah, I did want a different movie than the one I saw. Thus my disappointment.

 

And for the record, the movies I want are always better. 

post #679 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by zak chase View Post

 

This bothered me too. In fact, I think the whole end of that sequence is oddly staged. Not only does Bond allow Patrice to assassinate somebody, but the way it's edited indicates that Patrice realizes at some point that Bond is sneaking up behind him. He takes the kill shot and then quickly turns and lunges to get a jump on Bond. Which means Patrice was willing to bet that the Double-O agent coming up from behind wasn't going to make a move until after he pulled the trigger. That's a hell of a gamble!

 

I wasn't nearly as troubled by the death of the assassination victim as I was by the security guard in the lobby. I assume the assassination target did something worthy of assassination, but what did that poor bastard security guard ever do to anyone?

 

But yeah, it was a cool sequence and beautifully shot, but kind of weirdly staged. 

post #680 of 1198

Possibly Bond is waiting for he assassin not to have a cocked and loaded weapon ready?

post #681 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Youngblood View Post

Possibly Bond is waiting for he assassin not to have a cocked and loaded weapon ready?

 

COWARD!

 

What happened to the Bond that would BUST THROUGH DRYWALL???

post #682 of 1198
Rob Zombie's James Bond?
post #683 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by TCD View Post

Welcome to Thunderdome, littlenomad. 

 

Get off the cross please. There's a whole line of martyrs waiting for their turn.

post #684 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Billy Youngblood View Post

Possibly Bond is waiting for he assassin not to have a cocked and loaded weapon ready?

And it's not James Bond's job to stop assassins. He was there to find out who Patrice was working for. Bond was observing, not trying to save the day.




And I just got back from my second showing of Skyfall, and I have just one complaint: the shot from the teaser of Bond jogging through a park? No where to be found in this movie. I really wish that had been included, damn it. I wanted a little montage of Bond training himself back up to fighting shape.
post #685 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

COWARD!

What happened to the Bond that would BUST THROUGH DRYWALL???

He takes a running leap to cling to the bottom of an elevator only to realize he might have over estimated his own strength. biggrin.gif
post #686 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr Harford View Post


And it's not James Bond's job to stop assassins. He was there to find out who Patrice was working for. Bond was observing, not trying to save the day.
And I just got back from my second showing of Skyfall, and I have just one complaint: the shot from the teaser of Bond jogging through a park? No where to be found in this movie. I really wish that had been included, damn it. I wanted a little montage of Bond training himself back up to fighting shape.

 

You never know; due to the popularity of the movie, they might end up releasing an extended version with scenes like that included? I'd say there's a good chance, unless it was the final director's cut which is playing in theatres.

post #687 of 1198

That bit would go against the point being the physical wreck being sent back out into the field.  He didn't have time to retrain himself.

If you want to see Craig Bond running, you still had that in the film.

post #688 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post

You never know; due to the popularity of the movie, they might end up releasing an extended version with scenes like that included? I'd say there's a good chance, unless it was the final director's cut which is playing in theatres.

I want all the connective material back in. I really doubt it will happen, but I hate when the trailers tease Bond scenes that get left out.

Like this international TV spot:


I want that exchange between M and Mallory back. It's about educating Mallory on Bond, knowledge he will no doubt find useful in the future. Plus Sam Mendes has hinted there was more in Shanghai to clue the audience in on the connection between Patrice's art hit and Silva / Severine.
post #689 of 1198
Things generally get cut for a reason, though.
post #690 of 1198

I thought the art assassination was very clear, when the assassin looked over to the door he couldn't see Bond because of the way the light was reflecting off the door.  I find it hard to believe from that point on he's aware of somebody sneaking up on him to kill him. 

post #691 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Shape View Post

Things generally get cut for a reason, though.

Yes but sometimes the reason is just that a movie is running longer than would be ideal for business, rather than a legitimate story or pacing problem.
post #692 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

I thought the art assassination was very clear, when the assassin looked over to the door he couldn't see Bond because of the way the light was reflecting off the door.  I find it hard to believe from that point on he's aware of somebody sneaking up on him to kill him. 

Right right, I just mean that the whole art scenario (what was that about, again?) apparently has an explanation in the deleted scenes.
post #693 of 1198

You know what Ijust realized? This thread is sorely lacking in running neck snap appreciation.

post #694 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by WendellEverett View Post

I don't dare go into the "Best of bond Let's Get This Over With" thread because if I said the "Goldeneye" is horrible and "Tomorrow Never Dies" is fantastic on that thread, I could be banned from the entire site for life. Oh, wait, those same guys are reading this?  Oh Nooooooeeeeeesssssss.


On that thread I wrote that I still enjoy Die Another Day, and I'm still here.

post #695 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlenomad View Post

If I remember correctly, I came across a snippet of a review on Rotten Tomatoes which said there was a tremendous case of "been there, done that" with Skyfall.  I read that well in advance of seeing the film, and I thought, come on, that's just lazy critic writing.  However, I shockingly felt the same way yesterday afternoon after exiting the theatre. I had gone into Skyfall 95% unspoiled, and was excited about that.  In the past, sometimes a little spoiling in advance has helped me understand or value the movie differently, sometimes for the best.  And I've visited this message board many times to see if my lukewarm enthusiasm for something is just me being hard to please, if I missed something in the movie that would help me understand it differently, or if the movie really does have problems in the eyes of other moviegoers.  Well, I can see that there aren't many of us, but there is a vocal minority of us who have almost to a letter the exact same problems with Skyfall.  

 

However, my biggest problems stem from the "been there, done that" issue.  Granted, Bond films have borrowed from each other before, but I don't think I have ever seen so many different plot points lifted wholesale from recent Bond pictures and stacked on top of each other to make a new movie.  "Recent" being the key word there.  If we were going back to Sean Connery or Roger Moore movies and lifting elements wholesale, I'd be less surprised.  But in Skyfall, we're going back to the recent and widely-seen Brosnan films and taking elements out.  

 

  • MI6 Agent turns rogue and creates mayhem?  Goldeneye.  
  • MI6 Agent is abandoned and tortured for months on end, and this causes resentment towards the people who didn't rescue him?  Die Another Day.  
  • MI6 Agent has to undergo tests and prove self to MI6 before they'll let him back on the job?  Die Another Day.  
  • Baddie with personal vendetta against M attacks MI6 Headquarters, complete with part of the building blowing up?  The World Is Not Enough.  
  • MI6 has to relocate to classical, low-tech setting since their main headquarters was attacked?  The World Is Not Enough.
  • Baddie with personal vendetta against M sets up elaborate plot to humiliate her and then kill her?  The World Is Not Enough.
  • A significant person Bond cares about dies, yet this causes Bond to dedicate himself even more to the job at hand?  Casino Royale.
  • Okay, it's the end of the movie and all this crap went down and you lost your girlfriend and you don't follow orders yet you get the job done...Bond, are you sure you're ready to be part of the team?  Quantum of Solace.
  • Resetting Bond to a more hardcore, gadget-less, classic formula?  Casino Royale.

 

Yet there Skyfall went...not even 20 years after the oldest film on that list, Goldeneye.  Yes, this is "reset/reboot Bond," but that's no excuse...not for all of those above plot elements to be present, and not for them to follow so soon after the film they were originally featured in.   

 

Skyfall is well made, beautifully shot, has a memorable villain and scenes/themes that stick with you.  But it cribs so much from recent adventures I found it distracting, and there are quite a few unexplained/nonsensical things over the course of the movie that left me scratching my head.

 

  • Are they suggesting Bond got shot twice in the same spot?  Or was Bond wearing a vest which protected him from Moneypenny's shot, but not the other guy's shrapnel?  There was only one chest wound visible in shirtless shots, so this is a serious question and a potentially ridiculous film flub.
  • During the beautiful neon-on-glass sequence, why does Bond seemingly let that guy assassinate the poor chap in the other building?  
  • If the Aston Martin isn't a Q-Branch model, where did all its gadgets come from?  
  • Bond ultimately failed to protect M, and Ralph Fiennes seems to suggest both M and Bond retire...yet at the end of the movie, Bond still has a job and he's working for the guy who thought he should retire.  I could accept that better if maybe there was a statement like, "You know Bond, we may not totally see eye-to-eye, but you're a clever bastard and you've sacrificed damn near everything for us.  I'd be a fool to let you go."

 

I'm going to see the movie again, and maybe there are things I've missed during the first viewing that will show up and help explain some of my problems with the second.  Also, I'll keep following this board, because I really like seeing everyone's opinions.  

 

Just wanted to add mine to the mix! 

 


What's interesting is that I noted most of those points while watching Skyfall, but it didn't bother me and in fact somehow still felt fresh. Also, most of the Brosnan films have left my memory with nary a trace.

 

Bond films started quoting from each other in the 70's. Moonraker is practically a remake of Spy Who Loved Me, with a better villain and plan, and sore lack of Caroline Munro. (And really, why couldn't her character have survived being penetrated by Bond's missile, and deciding to hook up with Team Drax?).

post #696 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
Bond films started quoting from each other in the 70's. Moonraker is practically a remake of Spy Who Loved Me, with a better villain and plan, and sore lack of Caroline Munro. (And really, why couldn't her character have survived being penetrated by Bond's missile, and deciding to hook up with Team Drax?).

 

Actually, the quoting goes as far back as 1967 with You Only Live Twice.  It takes the basic plot of Dr No and remakes it on a massive scale, copying elements like Fiona Volpe along the way.  And TSWLM is really just a remake of YOLT.

post #697 of 1198
Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Blank View Post

James Bond: rapist?

 

Interesting conversation re: implied consent, ethics of having sex with a sex slave, etc.

 

I'm usually the one beating the feminist drum when it comes to women on film, but I've learned to shrug off anything that happens in a Bond movie.  He fucks girls, they die, the end.  This has been happening for quite some time, so for this person to just now notice it and get upset is like whining about the wetness of the ocean after you dove in head-first.

post #698 of 1198

Well there you go!

 

EDITED TO ADD: In response to Doc Phibes.


Edited by Cylon Baby - 11/12/12 at 7:50pm
post #699 of 1198

You know, in that article's defense, it would've been nice if Bond appeared at all perturbed by Severine's death. I know the "waste of good scotch" thing isn't just some careless quip, and that it's part of a psychological con game he's playing with Silva, but still -- because we get no other reaction than that from Bond, the viewer (and the writer of that article) is pretty much free to make either reading. Even the merciless Bond of Quantum wanted Fields to get mentioned for "true bravery" in M's "report," and obviously Vesper's death drives an entire movie's worth of revenge. There's no doubt Marlohe's death is treated pretty callously by the film, and personally I find it a little disappointing (especially since I thought she was pretty damn excellent in the role).

 

Frankly, I think Casino Royale is still the best dissection of the sexual politics of the Bond movies, even though I find Skyfall better overall. Just Vesper's introductory scene alone really puts Craig on his ass, sex-wise -- pun intended.

post #700 of 1198
Thread Starter 
After Patrice performed his assassination he saw a reflection of Bond approaching him and then reacted. I didn't catch it on my first viewing, but definitely payed more attention to it on the second because I wanted to see how it all played out staging wise.
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