2012 -2013 NBA Season

Rooting for the Bobcats to win more than ten games.

DREAM BIG.

People expect a lot from the Pacers, as do I.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoonBaseNick 

People expect a lot from the Pacers, as do I.

They've pretty much locked themselves into the same situation the Hawks have been in for the past half-decade. They'll get home court advantage in the playoffs (somewhat due to how abysmal the East is right now), but there's no way they're anything close to being real contenders, and they're pretty much stuck with this nucleus for the foreseeable future.  It's still better than they have been, and it certainly isn't an awful position, but I'm never a fan of locking yourself into mediocrity.

So who do you guys think will be to top rookie this year. I know everybody says Anthony Davis but I´m not a fan. The kid from Detroit Andre Drummond who every analyst predraft said had questionable work ethic is looking very good (I know preseason don´t mean jack) but he´s my dark horse for ROY.

The ascension of Kyrie Irving is going to be fun to watch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlove 

So who do you guys think will be to top rookie this year. I know everybody says Anthony Davis but I´m not a fan. The kid from Detroit Andre Drummond who every analyst predraft said had questionable work ethic is looking very good (I know preseason don´t mean jack) but he´s my dark horse for ROY.

 

The ascension of Kyrie Irving is going to be fun to watch.

I just can't see it with Drummond. He's a great athlete, but he's SUPER raw. He looked downright incompetent at times on offense last year. I do think he was a great pick for them, but it'll take a year or two for him to develop.

I think Davis certainly has the inside edge, but Dion Waiters and Damian Lillard are the next in line to me. I'm not a huge Waiters fan, but he's the kind of guy who can contribute immediately, and the Cavs are going to need his scoring. Lillard is in an even better situation. He's got a well-developed game, and he's going into a situation where he's the starting point guard. If he plays well, he could be the runaway winner.

I think the Pacers might be in for some regression to the mean. They were relatively healthy last year with Collinson running the point. I think they downgraded at that position this year, and they're going to need another healthy year from aging, injury-prone David West just to stick around. That division isn't very tough, but I'd be surprised to see Indy make it to the second round again.

I'm a huge Bulls fan and it's going to hurt not seeing Derrick Rose out there. I was ready to completely just give up on this season when they got rid of Korver, Asik and Brewer but I've been watching some pre-season games and like what I'm seeing. It feels so right seeing Kirk Hinrich back in a Bulls jersey. Picking up Nate Robinson was a good move too. I also like the additions of Nazr Mohammed, Vladimir Radmanavic and Marco Belinelli. I think this team can be 4th or 5th best out east and if they are and Rose is healthy enough to come back around the all-star break then it could get really interesting. 

I think the Lakers will win though. Yeah, LeBron and the Heat are the favorites. But that Laker team is just too deep. If Howard doesn't have any issues with his back I really just don't see another team in the league that can compete with them. Howard & Gasol together is just disgusting. I don't know who I'm more excited to see Steve Nash play with... Kobe, Gasol or Howard. I think Gasol. Nash and Gasol just seem like two very smart basketball players. It should be fun seeing them play together. I'm excited and I'm not even a Laker fan. 

I'm not entirely sure why people seem to be completely writing off the Bulls. I get that they don't have Rose for most of the season, and even when he does come back he probably won't be back at full speed until at least the next season. Still, this is going to be one of the best defensive teams in the league. Losing Asik and Brewer hurts that, but they still have a really strong nucleus, and they're still going to be a great defensive team under Thibodeau. With Hinrich, Hamilton, Deng, Boozer and Noah, they should be able to muster at least an average offense, and that's all you really need if the defense is as good as theirs has been. If Rose can give them anything in the second half, who knows? They aren't a title contender, but I'd be absolutely shocked if they missed the playoffs. I'm with you, I think 4th-5th in the East isn't unrealistic.

Honestly, I feel like I'd be way more comfortable with the Lakers if you replaced Kobe with a different wing, like a James Harden or something. I just don't have complete faith that he's going to sacrifice enough touches for the team to be as good as they should be. Maybe if this were still a Phil Jackson-led team, but I don't know... This team should be running Nash/Howard or Nash/Gasol pick and rolls almost constantly. Those are probably the two best pick and roll big men in the league, and Nash is either the best or second best pick and roll point guard. If they have to take plays off to let Kobe play heroball every now and then, I think it really hurts them. Maybe they all fit right together, but I'll have to see it. I definitely wouldn't call them deep though. The top 4 are sensational, but Metta is still not anywhere close to a starting-caliber player, and the backups are almost all terrible. I mean, Jodie Meeks? Devin Ebanks? Steve Blake? Jordan Hill is ok, and Jamison can offer some complementary scoring (though he's a void on defense), but that's a terrible bench. Kobe and Nash are hardly spring chickens, so we'll have to see how it all holds up.

They'll definitely be a playoff team, they're too talented not to be. I can't take them seriously with a Lopez/Humphries frontcourt though. I mean, that's probably the worst defensive frontcourt in the league. Even their bench doesn't have a single post player who is even an average defender. If they can't fix that, I don't think you can really take them seriously. That's why the Lopez max deal is so egregious to me. He's such a terrible defender and rebounder, he'd have to be a spectacular offensive player to offset that. He's not.

Casting another vote on the Bulls not only not being pushovers, but running away with that division once more. None of the other teams in that division got much better, and the Pacers even have a chance to be worse.

Feeling like the Atlantic Division will be tough, but the Central and Southeast divisions will be a joke.

finally got to watch my Lakers play a preseason game, local fans who dont have time warner cable cannot see Lakers right now, they are even blacked out on NBA tv. But they played the clippers....and I can get clipper games.

This team really worries me.  I was on the fence when the Lakers aquired Nash, I like defense and toughness out of my basketball players, and I think Nash's lack of those qualities is why he has never won anything. And I know I only saw one game, but goddammit if I did not see exactly what I expected. Chris Paul was not playing, so Bledsoe got the start. This kid absolutely bitchslapped Nash up and down the court. He would blow by Nash by three body lengths while Nash shouted Ole', setting up multiple dunks for Ryan Hollins and the usual clipper high flyers. At least Fish would handcheck or flop or something.....Nash looked freaking defenseless. Here's what surprised me....Bledso went up to Nash multiple times in this game...and took the ball away. I am sorry, but being able to possess the basketball against 1 on 1 defensive pressure is what a point guard is supposed to do. If you cannot do that ......then you really are not a point guard. Which basically reduces Nash to a Steve Kerr type who can make some nifty passess if they dont pressure him. Again....one game in the preseason.....but ugh. Blake was similarly challenged to the point where the lakers started having their small forwards bring the ball up.

Jamison looks like an older, smaller, slower version of Odom. What made Odom good was his length and the matchup problems he caused. I am not sure there is anything good about Jamison.

Howard did not play in the game, so hopefully his defensive presence helps make up for having an old turnstile defending the point.

I did see some positive stuff. World Peace looks to be in his best shape since joining the Lakers. My favorite Laker, Ebanks, has added a 3 pointer and is starting to look more like a stallion than a baby colt on the floor. Robert Sacre is gold with the 60th pick, Meeks can knock down an open 3. All in all it should be a good season....Nash can still shoot, which shores up a major weakness from last season. But this does not look like a championship team, maybe it can coelesce into one.

I think you're way overreacting to 1 preseason game. Nash certainly isn't a good defender, but he's smart, and at least does a good job of playing help defense and always being where he should. He's a better defender than Ramon Sessions, at any rate. Also, I wouldn't worry about him getting the ball taken away from him. Nash is one of the best ball-handlers on the planet. That sounds like an anomaly (unless Nash has all of a sudden lost like 8 steps). We learn year after year, preseason games tell us almost nothing, they just aren't usually indicative of what you're going to get during the season. I'll also note that Eric Bledsoe might be one of the top 5 on-ball defenders in the league, so its not like he was going against a scrub. Nash is a great offensive player, and he's going to be devastating on the pick and roll. I wouldn't be worried about him.

What I would be worried about is that the Lakers' second unit is one of the worst in the league.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3nnui 

Jamison looks like an older, smaller, slower version of Odom. What made Odom good was his length and the matchup problems he caused. I am not sure there is anything good about Jamison.

 

Yeah, this is the one thing that made me flash back to the early aughts, when it seemed like the Lakers were playing fantasy basketball as far as their acquisitons. Not sure exactly what Jamison does for them. His skill set is wasted as just another scoring option off the bench. The price was VERY right, I suppose, but I hate to see Jamison waste his talent in a position like this -- he needs more touches to be effective (not exactly instant offense), and playing with the Lakers, with barely any post-up opportunities, he'll be turned into a spot-up small forward who plays only adequate defense. They could have gotten that from anyone via free agency, and the fact that it's Jamison, of the Hall of Very Good, suggests Mike Brown is going to lean on him to do things outside of his skill set.

I also really like Jamison, and would have loved to see him go somewhere where he could boost his stats and play a more important role. He's accomplished too much to just be another bench guy whom Kobe yells at during practice.

I actually disagree. Jamison's skillset actually makes him an excellent complementary piece for a team full of stars. He's never been a guy who needed to pound the ball or get a ton of plays run for him. His best attributes are that he cuts and positions himself really well, and he's got a lightning quick release. He's a really good fit for playing off other guys who are going to command attention. Now, he might just be too old to be effective anymore, but it isn't his skillset that is the problem. He's actually tailor-made for a Princeton-style offense

Jamison has always played under the radar. His game is extremely complementary. I hope the Lakers do end up winning out just so there's a bit more balance in an NBA Universe where a quiet, about-his-business guy like Antawn doesn't have a ring but Antoine Motherfucking Walker does.

The Lakers should be really interesting. They'll either be really great or turn out to be like that 2004 Laker team with Shaq, Payton, Kobe and Malone where there were too many problems. I really like Steve Nash though and wouldn't mind seeing him win a championship so I can't really cheer against them (unless they're playing the Bulls). If they can come together and Howard can stay healthy and Gasol doesn't disappear and Kobe can finally for the first time in his career play somewhat unselfishly this team can win it all for sure. I do really like Jamison off the bench. He's still a starter on most teams and now in the 6th man role. 

The Jamison signing really shocked me. I didn't follow a lot of the trades/signings (except for the big ones) so a few weeks ago when I was finally getting all caught up I was like so not only did the Lakers get to keep Gasol along with trading for Dwight Howard and signing Steve Nash but they also signed Jamison? 

The Clippers should be interesting this season too. They're another team I can't really cheer against. I really like Grant Hill. I don't know if they'll be legit contenders though. I kind of wish Hill would have gone to a real contender like the Lakers or Heat. He's another guy who deserves one. It's unbelievable how he's bounced back from those ankle injuries and not only playing but still playing at a high level. 

Some other teams that surprised me with their trades/signings are the Celtics and Mavericks. The Celtics should be great. I was a little worried when they lost Ray Allen but they made up for it with signing Courtney Lee and Jason Terry. They also just signed Leandro Barbosa and they re-signed Jeff Green and Brandon Bass. They made some really good draft picks and have some big men again so KG doesn't have to do so much. They do have what it takes to beat the Heat. They kind of remind me of the Spurs now with a good mixture of veterans, players in their prime and young players. 

With the Mavericks... on paper they look decent. I'm sure this isn't the team Mark Cuban had in mind when he broke up the championship team before last season. But if everyone can stay healthy they do have the talent to make it far. They picked up Chris Kaman, O.J. Mayo, Elton Brand and Darren Collison. When Dirk gets healthy and if Vince Carter can stay healthy/motivated and Elton Brand can contribute they should be pretty good. 

I'm interested in seeing what some of the younger teams like the Jazz and Nuggets can do. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Upgrayedd 

With the Mavericks... on paper they look decent. I'm sure this isn't the team Mark Cuban had in mind when he broke up the championship team before last season. But if everyone can stay healthy they do have the talent to make it far. They picked up Chris Kaman, O.J. Mayo, Elton Brand and Darren Collison. When Dirk gets healthy and if Vince Carter can stay healthy/motivated and Elton Brand can contribute they should be pretty good. 

 

No mention of EDDY! CURRY!!?

I think the Mavs will be fun to watch, I do wish Delonte hadn't lost his mind, hopefully Dirk will be in much better shape last year after getting his knee fixed and, who knows, maybe his time away will allow the new guys to develop some chemistry before Mr. Nowitzki returns.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhukov 

 

No mention of EDDY! CURRY!!?

I think the Mavs will be fun to watch, I do wish Delonte hadn't lost his mind, hopefully Dirk will be in much better shape last year after getting his knee fixed and, who knows, maybe his time away will allow the new guys to develop some chemistry before Mr. Nowitzki returns.

I have to assume $854,389 is the league minimum because that's what Eddie Curry is getting paid.  That's still too much.  He's just a sack of shit.  Glad he's broke because he never earned any of that money.  And thank you Isiah Thomas for being dumb enough to get him off the Bulls hand after they gave him that outrageous contract.

As for the Mavs-their roster doesn't look that good.  Carter, Brand & Curry?  Maybe 8 years ago.

Just someone beat the Heat.  Tired of the LJ is the greatest ever debate.  Guy isn't even as great as Kobe and they want to jump over him to compaye him to MJ.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel 

I have to assume $854,389 is the league minimum because that's what Eddie Curry is getting paid.  That's still too much.  He's just a sack of shit.  Glad he's broke because he never earned any of that money.  And thank you Isiah Thomas for being dumb enough to get him off the Bulls hand after they gave him that outrageous contract.

 

As for the Mavs-their roster doesn't look that good.  Carter, Brand & Curry?  Maybe 8 years ago.

 

Just someone beat the Heat.  Tired of the LJ is the greatest ever debate.  Guy isn't even as great as Kobe and they want to jump over him to compaye him to MJ.

you beat me to it, the mavs are a disaster in the making. Yeah Collison Beubeau Mayo and Jones give them some talent int he back court, but the entire group is undersized and will generally shoot a low percentage. Other than Nowitzki, their front court is made up of has beens and never was....a complete disaster. If Dirk comes back and plays well he can maybe carry the team to 45-50 wins.....but they will not be a factor in the championship. If Dirk gets hurt or has a signficant drop off, the mavs could be in the lottery.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elvis 

What's the deal with Delonte West? Is he the craziest player since Vernon Maxwell?

He did have sex(allegedly) with LeBron's mom so he's judgement is suspect right there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elvis 

What's the deal with Delonte West? Is he the craziest player since Vernon Maxwell?

Well, he is bi-polar. Its sort of a tricky thing to talk about how crazy a player is when they have diagnosed mental health issues.

The "Mavs will be a disaster" thing is severely overstated, and totally discounts Carlisle's proven track record as a coach. They will compete, and compete hard, and that's all their fans are really asking for. Nobody expects them to win a championship this year. People have been declaring the imminent demise of the organization since 2006. All I'm really asking for is a Lakers/Mavs matchup in the playoffs (1 v 8 seed, fine, I'll take it). I don't care how we get there, but that's what I'm rooting for.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Anyawatchin Angel 

He did have sex(allegedly) with LeBron's mom so he's judgement is suspect right there.

Haha! I was going to post "ask LeBron's mom".

Damn, Harden to Houston. That was fast.

That's a fascinating trade. Harden is certainly the better player, but I think Martin is actually a better fit with OKC. He doesn't need the ball in his hands as much, so he's a better fit alongside Westbrook and Durant. I don't think the drop off this year will be that huge, and they got 3 first rounders out of it. I'm still not sure I'd have done it if I were them, but they picked up some substantial future assets and preserved a good financial position.

It's a home run for Houston. This is the kind of move they've been building towards for the last few years. Between Lin and Harden, they have the makings of a really dynamic backcourt.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SomethingClever 

That's a fascinating trade. Harden is certainly the better player, but I think Martin is actually a better fit with OKC. He doesn't need the ball in his hands as much, so he's a better fit alongside Westbrook and Durant. I don't think the drop off this year will be that huge, and they got 3 first rounders out of it. I'm still not sure I'd have done it if I were them, but they picked up some substantial future assets and preserved a good financial position.

 

It's a home run for Houston. This is the kind of move they've been building towards for the last few years. Between Lin and Harden, they have the makings of a really dynamic backcourt.

 You always make excellent points and really seem to know your stuff....but I dont see this as good for either team....unless Lamb pans out. Lamb has the look of a potentially special player (sort of like Harden a couple of years ago). The picks are lottery protected or potentially late rounders, OKC can possibly hit a homerun, but the picks are not the key to this deal.

Harden would not go for a sub max deal, league salary rules dont allow a team like OKC to keep 3 max players. Harden is the least special of the 3 and the easiest to replace. Harden also lost quite a bit of cache in the finals last year. There was no way to tell if Harden comes back strong this season, or goes into a funk.

Maybe your right and Martin fits in better with OKC than Harden did, but when I see Martin, I just see a guy. A guy with a scorers touch to be sure....but just a guy. Harden had the ability to dominate the game, he could carrry OKC through rough patches. His driving ability created tremendous matchup problems, and defensively he was a physically strong if not always motivated defender. He just ran into Lebron, and Lebron whooped him.....that shit can happen.

I think Houston pulled an Atlanta with this one....I think they got themselves a Joe Johnson. He will score 19-24 points a game, will look great at times. But will never be the top guy on a team that can threaten to win the championship. But in the short run this is certainly an upgrade. And Houston was loaded with chips at the poker table, it was time for them to make a bet.

So even though I think both teams made intelligent moves, I dont think either one did themselves any huge favor. I think Lamb is the key to who "wins" this trade. Will be interesting watching it play out.

One of the picks is top-20 protected from Dallas (which, given how Dallas is looking, may end up rolling over for a few years), but the other is a guaranteed lottery pick from Toronto, and that's a genuine asset, as is Lamb.

As for Martin, you may "just see a guy", but the fact is that he's been one of the league's most wickedly efficient scorers for years now. He scores a ton of points, and he does so extremely efficiently because he's a lights out 3PT shooter and gets to the free throw line a ton. He's a really special scorer. The downside of Martin is that he's injury-prone and a terrible defender, but offensively he's fantastic.

As far as Houston goes, I think Harden is the real deal. He's only 23, and his last season was arguably better than any season Johnson has produced in his career.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhukov 

Damn, Harden to Houston. That was fast.

Yeah that was. I can't believe OKC decided to split up their core. Perkins/Ibaka/Durant/Harden/Westbrook is an absolutely insane starting lineup. They did get Kevin Martin and Martin can come in and start or be their 6th man. But still... can't believe it. Now I'm interested in Houston with Lin and Harden. 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SomethingClever 

One of the picks is top-20 protected from Dallas (which, given how Dallas is looking, may end up rolling over for a few years), but the other is a guaranteed lottery pick from Toronto, and that's a genuine asset, as is Lamb.

 

As for Martin, you may "just see a guy", but the fact is that he's been one of the league's most wickedly efficient scorers for years now. He scores a ton of points, and he does so extremely efficiently because he's a lights out 3PT shooter and gets to the free throw line a ton. He's a really special scorer. The downside of Martin is that he's injury-prone and a terrible defender, but offensively he's fantastic.

 

As far as Houston goes, I think Harden is the real deal. He's only 23, and his last season was arguably better than any season Johnson has produced in his career.

 I read that the toronto pick was lottery protected, perhaps I misread that.  As for Harden and what he will be.....guess time will tell.

Your description of Martin really does not change my opinion of him....yes he is a good scorer. But he's not reliable (injury prone as you say), and a terrible defender (something that is all too often overlooked). So yeah, an above average guy altogether...but still just a guy.

He's not a "good scorer", he's a great scorer. Seriously, when you look at guys who score as frequently and as efficiently as him, you're looking at guys like Dirk and Manu. He's in rarefied air as a scorer. Sure, he doesn't do a whole lot else, but he's the 3rd option on this team, and they don't need him to do a lot else. He's a crazy efficient scorer, and he does most of his work before the ball even touches his hands, which means he can let Durant and Westbrook pound the ball and still be having an impact. Again, he isn't as good as Harden, clearly, but he's a great offensive player who has been vastly underrated over the course of his career. He's a more than servicable stopgap for Harden, and they got him, draft picks, and cap flexibility out of the deal. It's still a tough deal to make, but that's a pretty good package.

Yeah, people keep referring to that Toronto pick as "lottery protected", which is really confusing. It's actually top 2 protected and 15-30 protected, so it's a guaranteed lottery pick, as long as Toronto isn't in the top 2 picks.
 

OKC got a better and cheaper fit for the 2-guard position who gets the the foul line with ease and has a greater scoring pedigree. AND a possible lottery pick, AND Chandler Parsons. I sorta like the idea in principle for Houston, but a lot has to break right for that one to pay dividends for them (Harden isn't a max player).

In short: OKC, you mad motherfucking geniuses you.

As for Dallas, as mentioned earlier, they are now loaded with guys who put up good, not great, stats on terrible teams. That's a disaster waiting to happen.

It's really interesting to see all the different opinions people are having on this trade. I've seen people say it's good for both teams, bad for both teams, and a steal for one side or the other. Lots of varying takes.

I think the idea that Harden isn't a max player is ludicrous. This offseason, we saw Eric Gordon, Roy Hibbert, and Brook F'ing Lopez get max deals. James Harden isn't worth a max deal? He's 22, shows every statistical and playstyle indication that he can take on a bigger offensive load, and was one of the top 20 players in the league last year. Is he a max player in the same sense that Lebron is? No, but no one is. Is he a max player in the "you have to overpay a bit to get a star" sense that the league operates by? Definitely.

Also, I realize I've been stalking this thread. I need basketball season to start, I'm going crazy :P

None of the guys you named are max players. They became max players because the market dictated it, and by market, I mean a few stupid-ass owners. I wonder what would have happened if Charlotte, as desperate as they are, didn't offer up the max to Brook Lopez. You think capped-out Brooklyn would have maxed him out? No, their tactic was simply that they had to match if they wanted an upper tier center next year. It's desperation - there's always some idiot ready to overpay, because the owners don't understand how things like LOCKOUTS happen.

Also not onboard the "Harden is one of the league's 20 best players" train. He's good, he can handle the ball, and sometimes take over a game. But he's not a marquee guy, and he will often fade into the shadows.

Oh, I absolutely agree. I'm just pointing out that in the financial climate of the NBA, sometimes you have to overpay a little to get/maintain an asset. Houston has the flexibility to do so, and the Harden contract is far from egregious.

Name me 20 guys better than Harden. He's not a marquee guy because he's been playing alongside the second best player on the planet and another top 15 player. Also, give me an example of him fading into the shadows that isn't the Finals. One series (and particularly a series in which he went up against 2 of the best wing defenders in the game) does not a pattern make.

I want Lin and Harden to star in a buddy comedy of some sort.

Topic of conversation came up in my fantasy league: who's juicing?! I am fairly confident everyone on the Heat roster is, except for Spoe but definitely including Riley. A friend of mine is equally sure that Dwight Howard is on PEDs, but there's no way. Right? 

Quote:

Originally Posted by SomethingClever 

Oh, I absolutely agree. I'm just pointing out that in the financial climate of the NBA, sometimes you have to overpay a little to get/maintain an asset. Houston has the flexibility to do so, and the Harden contract is far from egregious.

 

Name me 20 guys better than Harden. He's not a marquee guy because he's been playing alongside the second best player on the planet and another top 15 player. Also, give me an example of him fading into the shadows that isn't the Finals. One series (and particularly a series in which he went up against 2 of the best wing defenders in the game) does not a pattern make.

 Just cuz I am having fun arguing with you.

1 Horford

2 Rondo

3 D Williams

4 Rose

5 Deng

6 Granger

7 Lebron

8 Wade

9 Anthony

10 Bynum

11 Nowitsky

12 Paul

13 Griffen

14 Gasol

15 Bryant

16 Howard

17 Love

18 Aldridge

19 Durant

20 Westbrook

Harden fits somewhere in the mix with: Pierce, Milsap, Parker, Ginobli, Duncan, Garnet Bosh, Randolph, Stoudemire Etc.

But yeah, it can be argued that he sneaks into the top 20 (though I prefer all the guys I listed) and there are plenty of players earning the max with whom Harden compares favorably.

Like I have said before Clever, you really know your stuff, and I have had to eat crow more than once trying to contradict you.....but hell, still gotta try.

So lets bring on the season (you know I am gonna be watching Martin's box scores and any OKC game I can now).

Season starts tomorrow night. I'm ready for it though. This felt like a long offseason. I just want D-Rose to make a quick recovery and get back on the court this season. 

Apologies if I come off super-aggressive in this thread. It's not intended that way, I just love me a good basketball debate :).

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3nnui 

 Just cuz I am having fun arguing with you.

1 Horford

2 Rondo

3 D Williams

4 Rose

5 Deng

6 Granger

7 Lebron

8 Wade

9 Anthony

10 Bynum

11 Nowitsky

12 Paul

13 Griffen

14 Gasol

15 Bryant

16 Howard

17 Love

18 Aldridge

19 Durant

20 Westbrook

 

Harden fits somewhere in the mix with: Pierce, Milsap, Parker, Ginobli, Duncan, Garnet Bosh, Randolph, Stoudemire Etc.

 

But yeah, it can be argued that he sneaks into the top 20 (though I prefer all the guys I listed) and there are plenty of players earning the max with whom Harden compares favorably.

 

I'd take him over Granger, Deng, Horford and Rondo without blinking, and it's a toss-up with Bynum (only because centers are so rare). Also, note that he's younger than everyone on that list (it's just the beard that makes him look like an old man :P).

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3nnui 

So lets bring on the season (you know I am gonna be watching Martin's box scores and any OKC game I can now).

Keep an eye on the free throw numbers. It's not flashy, but that's where he's really special.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SomethingClever 

I'd take him over... Rondo without blinking,

Really? Go back and watch the Heat/Celtics series.

Seen it. I think Rondo is extremely overrated. He can't shoot and he's overrated defensively (something that often happens when guys make their reputation defensively, then slack off when they become bigger stars). You can point to one playoff series if you want. I'll take the massive body of evidence that says he overpasses, can't shoot a lick, and that, for all his crazy physical talent, he's at best an average offensive player.

Don't forget Eric Maynor is back for OKC. Between him and Martin, they might have the Harden loss covered. I'm curious to see if Perry Jones 3 can do anything. And is Thabeet a lost cause?
 

Season starts tonight!

Here are some various assorted predictions, some boring, some bold:

Miami will repeat as champs - Lebron is on another level. Hate them if you will, but I love that they're essentially saying "screw traditional lineups. We've got Lebron and Wade, who needs a point guard or a center." Should be exciting to see just how good they are if it all clicks. I just don't see anyone at their level, and that includes the Lakers.

The Knicks will miss the playoffs - This is a disastrously constructed team. Amare and Melo are an awful pairing, they aren't complementary at all, and both are terrible defenders. I like Tyson Chandler a lot, but look at the rest of this roster. An overweight Ray Felton? A 40 year-old Jason Kidd? I don't like it at all. This team made their bones on defense last year, and they lost their 2 best perimeter defenders (Shumpert and Fields). I mean...Ronnie Brewer is ok, I guess? I just can't get on board with them, I don't think they're good. If Chandler gets hurt, they're toast.

The Nuggets will be a top 2 seed in the West - I love the Nuggets. They're a perfectly constructed regular season team. They're young, deep, fast and talented at every position. Really, other than the rookies, the rest of the roster is filled with legitimate NBA players. Brewer, Faried, Iguadola, Gallinari, Lawson, McGee, Chandler, Koufos, Miller, Randolph. It's a deep roster, and a lot of those young guys are guys who could make significant improvements. They were the 3rd best offensive team in the league last year, and they added 2 of the best wing defenders in the league (Iguadola and Brewer). The deep roster is less useful in the playoffs, but in the regular season it means that they stay fresh and injuries won't phase them.

The Bobcats will be an above-average defense - Honestly, I'm way less confident about this prediction than any of my other ones. I really just wanted to make the point that, as bad as they're going to be on offense (and they are going to be so, so bad), the Cats actually have a lot of solid defensive players. Biyombo has the makings of a defensive stud, and he should make a big improvement from his rookie year. Kidd-Gilchrist is a good defender on the wing, as is Gerald Henderson. Tyrus Thomas cannot possibly be as bad as he was last year, and even then he was a good shot-blocker. They added Brendan Haywood, who is a solid defender. It's not much, but it's something. A more realistic prediction would be that they'll be a top 20 defense (because even that would be a massive improvement), but hey, we're being bold here.

The fight for the 8th playoff spot in the West will be brutal, and eventually won by...Houston - Honestly, I could be totally right about how good Houston will be, and still be wrong about this. There are 5 teams (Golden State, Houston, Minnesota, Dallas, Portland) who can reasonably be regarded as in contention for the 8th playoff spot (I think Utah is solidly in the top 7), depending on how things shake out. Some of them won't get that close, but 2-3 teams will probably be within 1-2 games of each other at the end, which makes it all kind of a toss up. Anyway, why Houston? I love the way this roster is constructed. Daryl Morey has done a really exemplary job of remaking this roster in the wake of the Yao-McGrady era. As has been shown in this thread, I'm a firm believer in Harden, I think he's a star. I like Lin a lot, and I really like Asik. He's one of the best defenders in the league, and there are very few assets in basketball as valuable as a great defensive center. Those 3 are the known assets, but the season is going to be decided by what they get from their forwards. The bad news is that there are a lot of unknowns there. The good news is that there are a lot of talented young players in the mix, and you only need 1 or 2 of them to pop. I really like both Terrence Jones and Donatas Motiejunas, both of whom Houston got great value on in the draft. We've all seen the highlights of how good Royce White can potentially be. Chandler Parsons was one of the best values in the league last year. All that young talent also means that Morey, one of the most active GMs in the league, has plenty of trade chips left to improve his team during the season. Dallas and Minnesota both have injury issues, and Golden State's two most important players (Bogut and Curry) are made of tissue paper. It's expecting a lot from them, but I really like this Rockets team.

Can't disagree with any of that. Watching Miami tonight.....I have not seen such aggressive stifling defense since UNLV in their heyday.  The Celtics look good as well, will be fun watching their battles all season.  When you say Miami does not need a point guard, I would disagree, I think they have a fine one in Chalmers, its just that he plays his role on that team and does not get a lot of exposure. But he can drive, shoot defend and plays as an integrel part of that defensive line up. If I could trade Nash for him straight up, I would do it in a heartbeat. Only thing that can stop Miami is injury, their depth is old and brittle, if Lebron wears down when Wade takes his usual 10-20 games off, then the Heat may become beatable, if not...they likely repeat as champs.

Nuggets as top 2 pick is bold, but they have a nice looking team...now we find out how good Iguadola can be. Denver comes at you in waves and can out effort and out physical almost anyone in the league.

The Knicks are a joke, and a bad one.....just bring back Isiah for comedy value.

The Lakers are an enigma, if they learn to play together, they could present tremendous matchup problems for anyone. But if they dont find the chemistry, they could be a spectacular train wreck.

OKC post finals, post trade are going to be interesting to watch....do they come back determined to gain homecourt and take a championship? Or do doubts and the Harden trade force them to take a step back.

Should be a fascinating year.

Oh and here is my longshot prediction......Cleveland makes the playoffs (hopefully matches Miami in the first round).

Dallas ... looks good. They look hungry. This is fantastic.

I knew Howard was a poor free throw shooter, but he looks worse than Shaq. If he continues at this clip, he is essentially a turnover every time he's fouled.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zhukov 

Dallas ... looks good. They look hungry. This is fantastic.

 yep, have to agree, Carlyle is one hell of a coach.

I sure do hope Nash gets better, he has had a horrific game. The opposing point guards lit him up like a Christmas tree. Collison was 8-10 last I checked and Beaubois blows right past him. Once again I saw him in the "Nash" position, face down on the court while the opposing point guard goes in for a lay up after picking him at half court. Good thing he made up for it at the offensive end....oh wait he didnt, seven points and 3 assists.

Howards offense makes me miss Bynum, and this half speed Howard is no presence on the defensive end either. I hope Howard rounds into shape quickly, because if he cant play with energy, he is brutal.

Seems a great way to play defense against the Lakers is to simply foul their bigs, Howard and Hill combined for  around 20 percent from the line on around 20 attempts. Almost as good as a stop.

Only players who were effective were Kobe and Gasol.  Hill was also good on the offensive boards...and metta looks quicker, but as lost as always on offense.

This team is slow, really slow, and their defensive rotations are shit. They desperately need a defensive point guard, and to play Ebanks.

I do think the Knicks are sort of a joke, but as much as Carmelo is something of a sinkhole, I also think he's got some winner in him, and I find it hard to believe they won't make the playoffs as a lesser seed. The guy picks his spots poorly sometimes, but he can dominate, and I think if they give him the power he seems to want (and it looks like they will) they will definitely never be a playoff team, but they won't be worse than a 40 win squad.

It's really hard to predict how a lot of teams will do this season since a lot of the bad teams are very clearly trying to tank. Cleveland is so dedicated to building through the draft that they have one of the lowest payrolls in the league. But I think the East is so good that they'll at least play well enough to end up as the ninth best team by midseason. Do they start trading guys for nothing to get higher in the lottery, or do they sacrifice it all and make a run at that perilous seven or eighth spot in the postseason? I bet the former. Same for Orlando, who I honestly think has players that can play, but who probably won't want to win, even if Washington and Charlotte will essentially give them third place.

Not a believer in Houston because I'm not a believer in Kevin McHale. Same with GS and Mark Jackson - pencil Minnesota in the postseason for me.

I would really like a solid timeframe as to when we can expect Kevin Love to be back.