The Republican Party Going Forward v 2.0 - Page 5

While it is an interesting solution to the current problem, albeit a fantasy solution, I don't know if Huntsman would ultimately be a good choice. At his core he's pretty much a plutocrat which IMO is a big negative. He's kinda like a more liberal Romney...which isn't necessarily a good thing.

While he would add some sorely missing sanity to the GOP, the GOP "patient" might be unable to be 'cured'.

I think it's a given at this point that Congress is going to let the US go over the fiscal cliff, and then do it again with the debt ceiling in the Spring.

 

Some of what Obama's saying suggests he's going to do what Eisenhower did and take steps to avoid having to have the debt ceiling fight at all - the trillion dollar platinum coin, or something else along those lines.

OK, someone explain to me what's so awful about the fiscal cliff. I mean I don't claim to know all the ins and outs of the situation, but the government suddenly getting an enormous flood of revenue...how is that a bad thing? Can't they just turn around and invest it in stimulus, or pay down the defecit, you know, things that would help the economy?

 

Well, the expiration of the pay roll tax cuts could be a huge kick in the face to the economy, which is growing, but not growing at a fast pace.  Payroll taxes affect everyone, not just high earners.  The increase to income tax rates at the high end (the so-called Bush tax cuts) won't make a huge impact on the economy.  The cuts in defense spending may impact public and private sector jobs but are, on the whole, probably a good thing.

 

I'd say the fiscal cliff is a mixed bag.  Not awful, but far from the ideal way to balance the budget.  Austerity at this moment is stupid.

 

Even with this new influx of money, you still need Congress to act.  The federal government could be swimming in it, but if the House Republicans don't want to play ball, there's not much the federal government can do--by design.

Ezra Klein said the major problem with this is too much austerity too fast. Our economic system isn't built for that it would be like a dam releasing too much water to help and drought instead causing a massive flood. I don't know if this totally truthful as I have disagreed a lot with Klein but at the same time Austerity in Europe has proven to fail, just ask Greece, Italy, Portugal Ireland and Britain. I feel doing any austerity measures will kill our economy and the average person. Plain and simple austerity doesn't work.

This was one of the better pieces I have read on the "fiscal cliff". It keeps it relatively simple.

It's from a month or so back, so some of the info may have changed??

 

Why Washington’s “Fiscal Cliff” is a Myth

Going off the cliff does two things that both parties' wealthiest donors consider anathema: return taxes to Clinton era levels, and cut defense spending down severely enough to force a true end to the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. The fact that the cliff exists has almost convinced me that, somewhere in Washington, there lurks some kind of Asimovian Second Foundation which occasionally steers Congress back on track telepathically. I assume Ben Franklin founded it.

Ugh what people are forgetting is unemployment insurance goes bye-bye. Also with all the cuts being gone it would be rather harmful to get rid of all of it to people who make less than 250,000. It would kill people who are living paycheck to paycheck and bomb our economy and jobs will be slashed and with no unemployment insurance good luck surviving without that. It's not as simple as it seems.

 

Please elaborate on Obama's options and how he has signalled this intent, if you would be so kind. Everything I have heard from Obama's camp basically has him insisting congress raise it and refusing to use his (possibly illegal) executive powers to do so. I am itching for information on an alternative he may be seeking.

 

 

I'd like to subscribe to your newsletter!

 

 

True however regardless of what happens taxes on people earning under 250,000 are not going up. If we are going over the cliff, Reid is holding an up or down vote on tax breaks for the middle class and I believe unemployment insurance extension. At this point I don't think any Republican is crazy enough to vote against a tax break, and even if some do out of sheer principle, a majority will not. So I'm thinking we will get what Reasor imagines as well as basic protection for people struggling (although honestly probably not nearly enough) and the middle class.

Okay if that's the case fine but honestly if we have a sheer fall with the economic cliff, without the pay roll tax cut, the less than 250,000 limit tax cut or unemployment benefits than it'll be the middle class and the working poor suffering

The rich they'll be fine, The worst case scenario they can't but that third ivory back scratcher or fill their swimming pool with the tears of dying impoverished children and lose a few milatary contracts.

The rest of the 98 percent of America will be screwed. I don't understand why our country stands for this shit I mean if there was any time for mass revolt it's right now we're almost at the sad levels of economic inequality of the French prior to the revolution. Americans need to wake up because if they fail with this and than the debt ceiling everything can fall apart and you'll have no one to blame but yourselves and just questions of how did it all unravel so fast.

 

He's said a few times he's not going to negotiate on it. And the executive branch has a few tricks to avoid actually going into default. The most likely is to issue a non-circulating trillion-dollar (or whatever) coin that covers any overage. There are also a few other options, but I'm too lazy to look them up right now. None of these have been used since Eisenhower, but they are legal options.  Because past congresses have generally not wanted to actually harm the country, it hasn't really been an issue since, but with the apocalyptic death cult in the House Obama may be willing to do it and risk the right-wing freak-out.

If Obama has to do an option like that I feel that would be utterly sad and might as well dissolve congress (well maybe just the house). Seriously if the GOP continue down this self destructive path I don't care if they are in safe gerrymandered districts you have to think 2014 and/or 2016 could be catastrophic, and possibly not survivable. That why they need "moderate" republicans to save their collective asses!

In b4 Obama caves....

 

I read somewhere that the defence cuts (if the US goes off the 'cliff') would only return defence spending back to the levels of 2007 or 2008, which was when they were actively fighting Iraq and Afghanistan at the same time. It might be that independent of this, some sort of brake (or at least slowing the increase) of defence spending just *might* be a good idea.

Wait, so the House won't vote on anything today.

 

Does that mean we're going over the cliff?

Dooooomm! "yawn."

 

Wake me when the Dems cave in.
 

Well yes and no. There will be most likely be a deal in the senate tonight that will be voted on and passed and than will be sent to the House and voted on in a couple of days. So they could delay the bad parts of this for a few weeks till the House passes this unless evey congressman wants to lose their seats. Overall super disappointed it took this long to get this done so sad that the fear of economic collapse got this done and really was a massive cave in by the GOP on SS and UI and I guess a slight one on the limit of tax hikes on people making 450,000. But overall pleased and just hope there won't be a massive fight on the debt ceiling again.

lol

I'm hoping there will be.  I'm hoping Obama shuts the doors to the Federal government the minute McConnell and his weird manservant Boehner start clumsily feeling around for a concession the way a 18 year old freshman fiddles with a bra.  We'll find out how attached those seniors are to small government over in Red State land when SS stops sending out checks and medicare is no longer functioning.

 

Yes, I know it will hurt people and yes it'll fuck our economy good in the short term, but goddamn it, someone has to stop these nihilists and vandals in today's GOP.

No Democrats have to better than that. Let the GOP be the whiny losers that throw tantrums and take their ball and go home so the Dems can show which side is the problem, if the democrats do the same thing than they'll be just as bad and get blamed probably more.

I know it's painful but they have to take the high road and expose the GOP as the hypocrites and liars that they are and they'll pay for it they already are.

Honestly if the GOP refuse to budge on the debt ceiling than Obama should just do the platinum coin plan and while he'll get yelled (like he dosent already by the right) but in the end he'll save the country from economic ruin. Screw the Tea Party and GOP they deserve this punch in the face they just got!

http://www.cnbc.com/id/100345848

 

Good news everyone!  We get to do this again in 2 months.

 

 

Well assume that there will be constant negotions to get a long term deal to solve this problem. Well at least I hope so........but probably not.

while I don't like that the $$ bar got moved from $250K to $400-450K, it is an example of what political compromise looks like...so <shrug>

 

That being said, never underestimate the power of teaparty doucheness...it's still possible for them to crash the party, drink all the alcohol and projectile vomit all over the living room carpet.

Yes Johnny, the GOP clearly can only be saved with Libertarianism. "snicker." Although he is right about not having a soul and his other critiques.

 

http://www.mediaite.com/online/jon-huntsman-gop-is-devoid-of-a-soul-needs-strong-dose-of-libertarianism/
 

Actually I agree with Huntsman to this extent:

 

I think the Tea Party types as well as rank and file Conservatives (and hell, people on the Left as well) are disturbed by the Crony Capitalism that has developed in the US. When major Banks get a blank check from the Feds, using tax payer money, and no Bank Execs go to jail for anything they did during and leading up to the 2008 crisis, something is wrong. Libertarianism is a clear antidote to that.

 

I also think (and have read/heard in interviews with local Tea Party types) that the GOP is weighed down by Social whackjobs who helped Romney lose the election. Again Libertarianism is an antidote.

I just listened to the "Full" (in quotes because it cuts off) interview with Huntsman. He makes a hell of a lot of sense and could have won against Obama. But he also states he won't put up with the bullshit of the extreme GOP and refused to play the game during the primaries, ensuring that he would not be the nominee.

Yeah I said the same thing as well. I think the GOP embracing a more Libertarian stance and moving away from disastrous social and financial policies would be all for the better and strengthen their party not send me in a panic if a Republican would win. I'd much rather a libertarian win the presidency like Gary Johnson than a crazy social conservative like Rick Perry. Going all-in on social issues and attacking any candidates that aren't Christian fascists have led the Republicans into their horrible poll numbers of late. A more reasonable approach and punting on abortion, drug war, anti-gay rights, and all the ridiculous positions they've taken lately would allow them compete nationally again. Because now all they can even hope is maybe controlling the house and if they continue this crap they could kiss that goodbye for a generation at least. I feel America is mostly middle of the road which explains presidents of late like Obama and Clinton people don't like anything they view extreme which is why Romney/Ryan lost. Ha imagine if next ticket would be Rubio/Bachmann? Good luck with that GOP.

Punting on abortion, the drug war, gay rights etc. is not an option for the GOP, though.  Then all they have to sell is economic policies that are terrible for the vast majority of the electorate.  

 

They do need to change something if only for image's sake, though. I'd say the anti-gay stuff would be the easiest limb for the party to lose, but if they're smart they would about face on immigration, which would give them a new bloc of social conservatives to court.

The problem is that the republican party is the party of white nationalism. You can't expect the rank and file party members to suddenly embrace brown people for the sake of political expediency.

Whenever I thing of "shithead Southern politician," Mitch McConnell's is always the first face that comes to mind. 

 

Thing is, all they'd have to do is tout 'State's rights' on the Gay issue, and there are plenty of ways they can compromise on Immigration (wanting a secure border with Mexico does not equal racism or even anti-immigration!). I agree with you that the GOP could get a large group of new supporters if they stressed "traditional values" of Family, Church blah blah blah to Latino and Asian communities (and some Black communities who support Obama but have issues with Gay Rights and other aspects of the Democrat's social agenda).

 

The economic policies you decry include things like minimizing government regulation (lost in the election was the elementary point that minimizing regulations is different from NO regulations). And it's not unreasonable to want to make changes to entitlements to balance out tax increases.

 

But they won't because....

 

 

Sadly I think this is correct.

You also can't expect a significant number of brown people to buy it when they're told, "All that we said about hating you and wishing you'd go away and burn in hell? We were just messin' around! We love you... Caramel-Americans! Is that right?"

 

That kind of tonal shift can only occur as the people speaking change.

Well stop all the celebrating. Apparantly the Republican members of the House are trying to derail the deal, especially Cantor and Ryan. Just amazing they could just go and screw themselves. I knew those jerks would pull this crap seriously this is just stupid. Well guess this will be the end of Boehner. Honestly anyone supporting this part go to a doctor and sterilize yourself!

Dammit! Where's James Spader, John Hawkes and Tim Blake Nelson one you need them!

 

While some of the ideas put forward by libertarianism are progressive, at it's core, libertarianism, as embraced by those in the GOP, would be nothing more than a kind of chemotherapy for the GOP's cancer.

 

Sure, it might cure the patient (GOP) but IMO, the patient and it's ideology has reached the point where one has to question, "is investing the time and energy into saving the the patient worth it?"

 

Libertarianism might allow the patient to live on a bit longer but the amount needed to 'save' the GOP is so toxic as to be fatal in and of itself.

 

At it's core, much of the GOP's current ideology consists of individuals who hate and want to dismantle government as we know it. It's been said before and perhaps it's a bit extreme, but much of the GOP is nothing more than a 'death cult' who would love to see the destruction of any and all social safety nets that exist and a reversion to a time when women and colored people "knew their place" 

 

Fuck the GOP, let them die...then the Dems can split into conservative and progressive wings and all this shit can start "fresh".

It strikes me as a little alarming that the GOP's only salve for getting their @$$es kicked is changing the message -- not what they want to make happen or who they leave out -- how they communicate their ideas to the public at large.  In other words, their PR will molt but their beliefs and desires will not change. 

 

ps. One of my right wing FB friends has been posting all these bizarre self-wanking pro-gun posts about  how gun owners are there to protect the sheep or something, meaning we're all sheep and want/need them to protect us from "the bad guys."  You can't disabuse someone of these delusions.  I only hope there are enough people living in reality to outvote those who have completely submerged themselves in fantasyland.

 

WOW....

 

 

So I guess around 9 pm the House will begin a up and down vote on the Senate bill that passed at 2 in the morning with no additional amendments so I guess we'll find out shortly if we're going to be in serious trouble I hope it passes but hearing comments about it from GOP house members has me real scared. Either way this should be entertaining.........

It will pass. That's why they are holding the up or down vote. They didn't have the votes to pass it with any amendments so Boehner is doing it this way, giving himself political cover.

Yeah I assume it will but with the ways have gone lately its easier to be pessimistic till the results actually happen as things have been rather silly of late.

Edit: Whew! It passed but only thanks to the Democrats. The Republicans overwhelmingly voted against with 150 GOP congressmen voting Nay. Seriously fuck the Republicans they are just awful, terrible people who voted against a policy to keep something permanent that their own party supported and signed in law by the last Republican president, just because they aren't extending it for the rich? Seriously go fuck yourselves and die!

I've been critical of the Democrats for awhile but without them he'd be screwed and am glad that over 80 Republicans joined them and are some what sensible but the rest? They're dead to me as are the few leftist extremists on the Democrats that voted with them seriously, you guys suck!
Edited by Arturo RJ - 1/1/13 at 8:12pm

Well, one political fight down...

I bet Boehner's liver is partying right now.

I wonder if the GOP is going to try and start some shit (again) over the debt ceiling?

ooops

 

 

oh no the GOP would never try to make a political issue over the debt ceiling..........oh wait never mind.

 

Don't forget in 2 months its not only that being fought but the sequestration. So I guess we'll start this again the same time in two months. Ugh!

The reason why the party divide is also a regional divide: the southern colonies weren't founded by Pilgrims. They were founded by petty nobles who had struck it rich in the rum/sugar/slavery triangle on their Caribbean plantations before transplanting their operations to the mainland. We were always two Americas.

Keep it classy gents

 

http://news.yahoo.com/john-boehner-told-harry-reid-f-yourself-outside-103332376.html
 

To be fair, Harry Reid is a motherfucker. And he had just publicly referred to Boehner as a dictator.

 

I wish this type of thing would happen more often. I think most of those guys should hear that at least once an hour.

Pretty amazing that Peter King went on Fox and said New Yorkers shouldn't contribute to congressional Republicans' campaigns because they wouldn't allow a vote on Hurricane Sandy relief. 

Now Christie is driving the bus over Boehner...