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Israel kills Hamas leader and citizens in Gaza - Page 2

post #51 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatMan View Post

 

But they choose to keep being a nuisance, and they are going to keep getting swatted down.

 

So they just lie down quietly and die, huh? Again, what would you do if you were in their shoes? 

 

And you nicely sidestep my point by saying it's "another discussion," as if the US, Israel and Palestine are the only voices in this discussion. But you yourself agreed they're not. So that is fundamentally incorrect. 

post #52 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post

 

You make a ton of great points, but needed to call you on this.

 

I see this argument a lot. Hell, I've made it before. But it's important to make the distinction that Israel and the Jews didn't just take the land. The land belonged to the British and the French after they divided up the Ottoman Empire post WWI. They promised Palestine they would help them become their own state while also simultaneously working with Israel to set up their own state. Meanwhile, European Jews facing hostility were migrating into the area and buying up land (legally). After WWII, this obviously increased and that's when the Zionist movement and the UN agreed to establish and recognize the state of Israel. From Israel's point of view, they've done nothing wrong, and it's important to remember that. They didn't go in with guns and bulldozers and push people away, they legally required the land that is theirs. Think of that what you will, and I'm not saying there aren't problems with how it was handled (especially to blame, surprise surprise, the French and Great Britain) but I think it's dangerous to argue that Israel "kicked people out of their land."

They didn't kick people off their land in 1948, but the pushes in the 50s and 60s? They most absolutely did. My girlfriend's grandmother still has the deed to the house she grew up in, the one where one day some soldiers came and told her parents that they did not live there anymore, and to kindly get out. There is some straight up terrible shit she's described going through just so her family could migrate to Kuwait, people being slaughtered in the streets, that it's no wonder the conflict has bred generations of hatred on both sides. 

 

I say this not wanting the destruction of Israel--whatever one may think of how it was created (or how deeply fucked in rational thinking the Zionist movement is--by no modern standards did they have a "right" to Jerusalem), it's there, they exist, and there are generations of people who have grown up there who have done nothing wrong. Israel has a right to exist the same way the United States has a right to exist. What's done is done. But the same thing has to apply to both sides here, and the Israeli government has done everything it can to corral a very large population of Arabs into a very tiny percent of the land, deprive them of basic human dignity, and then wonder why things are always a simmering pot waiting to boil. There is a very sizable group of people living in Palestine who only want a safe place to call their own--Israel can go have its home, just give Palestinians the same chance. But between the inter-fighting between gangs in Gaza and the Israeli and a good chunk of the US population painting the whole population with the same brush--that they're all subhuman animals who need to be exterminated--their voices fall on deaf ears. Which is tragic.

post #53 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatMan View Post

 

You double talkers make me laugh,

 

You didn't call me on shit. I used the word "full", a general term not specifiying any concrete number, but aluding to a lot. You accuse me of saying "100%", a specific number. That's what I stated. Congratulations, you're deficient in math, english and honesty. It's the same tactic with you people always, round robin of accusing each other of the same thing.

 

However, I stand by savages and terrorists comment. Go visit Palestine, let me know how it goes.

 

It wasn't doublespeak, or an accusation.  It was a sarcastic response to the vile shit you like to spread on these boards.

 

But I appreciate the "you people" comment.  As a white male, I don't get included in "you people" very often.

post #54 of 73

God, BoatMan. Is there anything you can't dehumanize?
 

post #55 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post

God, BoatMan. Is there anything you can't dehumanize?
 

 

Nope, usually not.

post #56 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Parker View Post

 

So they just lie down quietly and die, huh? Again, what would you do if you were in their shoes? 

 

And you nicely sidestep my point by saying it's "another discussion," as if the US, Israel and Palestine are the only voices in this discussion. But you yourself agreed they're not. So that is fundamentally incorrect. 

 

How about lie down quietly and make peace? I'm not saying that the situation over there is anywhere even close to okay, or that it would be easy, but the continued violence is not helping.

 

I didn't side step anything, it was just my opinion that it was another discussion. So then fine, let's have it. There are a handful of other arab countries that want the Israel-PA situation to remain "status quo". They provide weapons, and make the palestines believe that they have support (which they don't) and push them to continue the violence. All because it helps themselves politically. Keep the evil empires of Israel and the US in the forefront, keep their citizens anger focused there instead. The other countries just don't care enough or don't want to get involved.

 

Don't you think between the oil money and US money, there is a way to stabilize a small population? Why can't that happen? Because of the continued terrorist violence, which some benefit from greatly.

post #57 of 73

So essentially your take is "the Palestinians should just let Israel dictate to them the future of their nation".
 

I'm honestly agog that a supposedly intelligent person could look at the situation and say "it's all Palestine's fault, they're just a bunch of terrorists".

post #58 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post

So essentially your take is "the Palestinians should just let Israel dictate to them the future of their nation".
 

I'm honestly agog that a supposedly intelligent person could look at the situation and say "it's all Palestine's fault, they're just a bunch of terrorists".

 

No, I'm saying that they should choose the path that allows them to be their own nation. Peacefully.

 

Look, they elected Hamas to run their government, what does that say? Certainly not that they want peace. And I said before that some blame is on Israel, they keep taking land. But why can they do that carte blanche? Because of the continued rocket attacks and bombings.

 

It's a mess, there is no easy solution. Both sides are going to need to stand down and accept concessions (yeah right). I know it's harsh, but the PA is not in a position of power, they need to play by international rules. If they could, they would possibly get nationhood.

 

What happens then? The UN draws up borders, they get a definitive line on a map that even Israel dare not infringe on. I'm not trying to dehumnaize anybody, it's just the cold hard reality. I don't give two shits about blood feuds, or at this stage who started it in 1948. If the PA continues to attack Israel, they will continue to get nothing. And then Israel will continue to take land, and the PA will continue attacks. And so on forever.

post #59 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatMan View Post

 

No, I'm saying that they should choose the path that allows them to be their own nation. Peacefully.

 

Look, they elected Hamas to run their government, what does that say?

 

That they're tired of being marginalized and treated as subhuman by both Israel and its powerful allies? If any other country in the world treated its neighbor the way Israel has, the Western world would be up in arms about it. Rocket attacks. Sure, okay. That's what happens when you blockade a populace and impoverish them.

 

For Palestine to "choose the path that allows them to be their own nation peacefully", they would need to agree to pretty much whatever Israel put on the table. How exactly is that a just solution to the conflict? It's basically the guy with the bigger stick getting to dictate terms, backed up by all his huge stick wielding friends.

post #60 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post

 

That they're tired of being marginalized and treated as subhuman by both Israel and its powerful allies? If any other country in the world treated its neighbor the way Israel has, the Western world would be up in arms about it. Rocket attacks. Sure, okay. That's what happens when you blockade a populace and impoverish them.

 

For Palestine to "choose the path that allows them to be their own nation peacefully", they would need to agree to pretty much whatever Israel put on the table. How exactly is that a just solution to the conflict? It's basically the guy with the bigger stick getting to dictate terms, backed up by all his huge stick wielding friends.

 

History has given them the short end of the stick, no doubt about it. But they have had opportunities to improve their situation, and they always chose to make it worse. And when has the small guy ever been able to dictate terms?

 

I know it sucks, but like other peoples on the losing side of a conflict, you take the terms offered to you. Create a peace, and rebuild. Unlike most every other people in the history of the world they have that option. I'm pretty sure the Kurds would accept any deal offered for peace and their own country.

post #61 of 73

"At least we didn't gas you to death" is hardly a strong ethical comeback.
 

post #62 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post

"At least we didn't gas you to death" is hardly a strong ethical comeback.
 

 

How did I know you would have an issue with that. I wasn't making an ethical comeback, I was just drawing a comparison.

 

So tell me then, how do you see the end of this. How many of the past presidents in a row have tried to make something over there, offering a direct path to state hood? All were rejected with eventual violence.

 

If the PA's stance is "Israel must NOT exist" and Israel's is "We will exist", where do we go? Give me something beyond, "Oh my Gawd, Israel is so mean!"

post #63 of 73

Israel's stance is not "we WILL exist". Israel's stance is "we WILL exist and Palestine won't and we'll do whatever the fuck we like".

 

My something beyond "oh my God Israel is so mean" is expecting the Israeli government to act like something approaching reasonable adults. Both sides are just as intransigent as each other, but only one has the international allies and military heft to adopt a position of moral authority. They're the ones with the power in this scenario, and they should start using it more wisely. Give up ground. Act like statesmen instead of scared children. Israel isn't going anywhere, and there's not a nation capable of "pushing them into the sea". Stop playing the victims and start acting like an advanced nation. It may not yield immediate results, but international opinion would see a sharp swing towards them if they started behaving responsibly, and treating the residents of Gaza like more than animals would only help to erode Hamas' support.
 

post #64 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew Merriweather View Post

Both sides are just as intransigent as each other, but only one has the international allies and military heft to adopt a position of moral authority. 


Just dropping by to point out, again, that there are important moderate factions on both sides, that want peace, that want a solution. The extremists have a monopoly on power and that is largely due to outside interference. You can't say the Palestinians won't deal because you have Fatah in the West Bank, you have Salam Fayyad who has unilaterally proposed that his party accept all conditions of the Road Map, you have Abbas and the PA which have silently suffered Likud's failure to stop illegal encroachment in the Settlements. And in Israel you have Kadima, you have progressive elements that really should be governing the goddamn country because they won the last election, but this monstrous asshole Netanyahu is somehow dictating the national discourse because of his crypto-Russian media lapdog Lieberman.

Again, Boatman is full of shit (on this issue, he seems pretty decent in most arenas but he's obviously badly misinformed about the groundlevel on this topic - seriously, man, Hamas does not equal the PA does not equal the Palestinian people, read a book before making sweeping pronouncements about how the Palestinians do not want peace).

post #65 of 73
Judging by American history I infer our government; majority party and minority party is perfectly fine with what Isreal has done, and really sees no fault as do our staunchest allies of Britian. That the truly sad thing in my opinion. Look at what we have done to first the Native Americans, the people in the Phillipines when they wanted full independence after the Spanish-American war, and disposing tons of democraticly elected leaders we disliked from Iran, Vietnam and all the Latin countries we propped up in favor of cruel American friendly dictatorships. At one time we were allies of Hussein, Khadafy, Assad and Noreiga.

We just hate Hamas and what they stand for so we just outsourced the carnage to Isreal to do our dirty work, so we don't look terrible in the eyes of the international community. So the PLO and Gaza try to appeal the UN for statehood and a week later the Isrealis assinated Hamas' defense minister? Yeah there is nothing suspect here. So sort of crap the American government did with the failed Bay of Pigs and vile attacks in Vietnam. It's sad how people can't see through this crap! Really blaming the civilians for electing Hamas so they have the right to kill them indiscriminately? That might the most disgusting thing I've heard. However I do hear that a cease fire might be close, but the message is pretty clear now to Hamas and all Palestinans step out of line again and we will annihilate all of you! Just for asking if they could be allowed to be a country and defending themselves with their glorified fireworks? Oh they killed 3 Isrealis? Well on the Palestinan side a hundred were killed.

This is why there will never be a Palestinan state, when Isreal went through the same channels it was widely accepted and when Palestine does the same they get bombed with massive loss of human life. This just so sad and horrific. Without a doubt the biggest human right violations currently and probably the worst since Rwanda and Serbia. I mean honestly this might be worse because of how long this has been going on. How is this not genocide /ethnic cleansing especially with Israeli's continuely building settlements in the West Bank! I wish a powerful nation would do something to stop this but who? Doubt China or Russia even cares and we know that US and the EU are on the side of Isreal, so unfortunately the Palestinans are on their own. Wait so why have done attacks again I totally forget why?
post #66 of 73

Eisenhower cock-blocked the Israelis when they invaded the Sinai (alongside the French and British). 

Israel's military also killed 34 US sailors, which is a fair number more than any bodycount attributable to the Palestinians.

post #67 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post

Eisenhower cock-blocked the Israelis when they invaded the Sinai (alongside the French and British). 


Israel's military also killed 34 US sailors, which is a fair number more than any bodycount attributable to the Palestinians.

If only the GOP went back to their policy positions that they had pre-Reagan our country would be way better off than we are now. I don't see either Eisenhower or Nixon putting with the crap that Isreal is doing right now, I know Dwight wouldn't. We need that type of leadership right now.
post #68 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post


Just dropping by to point out, again, that there are important moderate factions on both sides, that want peace, that want a solution. The extremists have a monopoly on power and that is largely due to outside interference. You can't say the Palestinians won't deal because you have Fatah in the West Bank, you have Salam Fayyad who has unilaterally proposed that his party accept all conditions of the Road Map, you have Abbas and the PA which have silently suffered Likud's failure to stop illegal encroachment in the Settlements. And in Israel you have Kadima, you have progressive elements that really should be governing the goddamn country because they won the last election, but this monstrous asshole Netanyahu is somehow dictating the national discourse because of his crypto-Russian media lapdog Lieberman.

Again, Boatman is full of shit (on this issue, he seems pretty decent in most arenas but he's obviously badly misinformed about the groundlevel on this topic - seriously, man, Hamas does not equal the PA does not equal the Palestinian people, read a book before making sweeping pronouncements about how the Palestinians do not want peace).

 

Not knowing and just not considering them relevant enough to matter currently, are two different things. But by all means, keep enjoying your pedestal.

 

I understand as an American that I am judged by the outcome of our elections. Yeah, during the Bush years there were some "important moderate factions on both sides", but they were pretty fucking useless during those years weren't they. When Bush won the majority popular vote in 2004 did it not signal to the world that we still wanted war? And weren't we held to that standard until as a people we started voting toward a different path?

 

But whatever, I guess I'm full of shit because I think who a people chooses to lead them, says a lot about their intentions

.

post #69 of 73

So, who do think has been 'chosen' to lead the Palestinians?

ETA: You know what, nevermind, yours is a ridiculous argument anyway, since it presupposes the Palestinians don't want peace because of their 'elected leaders' (Hamas, in the Strip, which hardly constitutes 'the Palestinians') but the Israelis somehow do want peace, despite their (not really, but technically) elected government being run by a bunch of xenophobic psychopaths.

So yes, I guess you're full of shit as well. We at least agree on that.

post #70 of 73
Honestly kind of disgusted by what Hamas did today and should be punished but unlike one of my co-workers I don't believe they should be leveled and have their land salted so nothing will grow. Honestly there are really awful people in this country. I feel both sides are wrong in this conflict and really needs to stop. But mass overreaction is not helpful.
post #71 of 73
Quote:
Originally Posted by BoatMan View Post


Look, they elected Hamas to run their government, what does that say? Certainly not that they want peace. And I said before that some blame is on Israel, they keep taking land. But why can they do that carte blanche? Because of the continued rocket attacks and bombings.

Does the election of Bibi and the Likud party, in a coalition with right wingers, similarly signal an unwillingness by the Israelis to make peace?

What about when the Israelis elected Sharon? Other than Peres and Rabin, has there been an Israeli PM who credibly wants to come to the table to make peace?
Edited by Spook - 11/20/12 at 5:13pm
post #72 of 73
So apparently a ceasefire has been reached between the Isrealis and Hamas. This is great news, great job by Morisi and Clinton getting this done. Really sad she is leaving her job soon, she has done such a good job as the Secretary of State.
post #73 of 73

Renewed bid for UN recognition of Palestine:

 

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middleeast/2012/11/20121128142545792986.html

 

Needs a simple majority, so there's a chance.

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