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The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey Post-Release - Page 8

post #351 of 963

From that graph, the only ones I'd have difficulty in identifying are Dori, Nori, and Oin, though I might get some of the others' names wrong (Ori, Bifur, Bofur).

post #352 of 963

It says something about me that I have no trouble identifying the dwarves in this film (or naming the characters of A Song of Ice and Fire and how they relate to one another), but I can scarcely remember who's who in the paternal side of my family.

post #353 of 963

So, according to that chart Ori works for Schrute Farms? Right now he is the only dwarf I wouldn't mind meeting a grisly end in the first 10 minutes of the film, like getting up to pee, falling off a rock, and being devoured by Rhosebel rabbits.

post #354 of 963

So I'm still catching up on this thread, but has anyone already touched on why the dwarves come off as Middle Earth's biggest pussies?  A couple orcs and wargs show up, and they're shitting themselves and running up trees or into caves.  It seems like every 15 minutes, they're surrendering to somebody, be it trolls, goblins, etc.  I know there's source material to consider, and I knew this would be a lighter affair, but come on.  Can't Thorin even get a solid hit in before he gets his ass handed to him by Azog?  These guys suck.

 

Anyway, I enjoyed the movie.  The CG was a constant distraction and I thought the big action set pieces were abysmal (if we get something in the next two films that manages to be worse than that seemingly endless goblin escape, I will be shocked), but it hit just enough of the right beats - sweeping shots of people walking across gorgeous landscapes, rousing musical cues, a parade of familiar faces - to feel like a worthwhile addition to the series.  Bring on the next 6 hours!

post #355 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by agracru View Post

Out of curiosity: is that such a bad thing?

 

It depends. If 48 fps is going to be the new standard, than yes. If it gets people to appreciate film more, than no.

As far as the HFR goes, I think it was lovely when used with the digital creations. But most of the time, when the digital creations and the humans interacted, or when the frame was made up of mostly human actors, it was garish, jarring and frankly, pretty ugly. My thoughts are it might be great if you plan to create a totally digital environment with 3D in mind. And maybe Jackson is just a pioneer and someone else will be able to use it better and incorporate both the human and digital sides of things more seamlessly. But unless that happens, until it happens, I'm on the fence about it in general. And leaning towards the negative side. 

post #356 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy dunlop View Post

So I'm still catching up on this thread, but has anyone already touched on why the dwarves come off as Middle Earth's biggest pussies? A couple orcs and wargs show up, and they're shitting themselves and running up trees or into caves. It seems like every 15 minutes, they're surrendering to somebody, be it trolls, goblins, etc. I know there's source material to consider, and I knew this would be a lighter affair, but come on. Can't Thorin even get a solid hit in before he gets his ass handed to him by

Most of them aren't warriors. Balin says that -- they're the ones who responded to Thorin's call, but we're not talking about the best of the best like the fellowship was.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTyres View Post

So, according to that chart Ori works for Schrute Farms? Right now he is the only dwarf I wouldn't mind meeting a grisly end in the first 10 minutes of the film, like getting up to pee, falling off a rock, and being devoured by Rhosebel rabbits.

Whose cold dead hands do you think Gandalf takes that book from in Moria?
post #357 of 963

"Here lies Balin, son of Fundin, Lord of Moria. He is dead then."

post #358 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by fuzzy dunlop View Post

So I'm still catching up on this thread, but has anyone already touched on why the dwarves come off as Middle Earth's biggest pussies?  A couple orcs and wargs show up, and they're shitting themselves and running up trees or into caves.  It seems like every 15 minutes, they're surrendering to somebody, be it trolls, goblins, etc.  I know there's source material to consider, and I knew this would be a lighter affair, but come on.  Can't Thorin even get a solid hit in before he gets his ass handed to him by Azog?  These guys suck.

 

 

A holdover from the book - essentially the first 6 chapters consist of Bilbo and the dwarves getting in trouble and being saved by Gandalf. This won't be the case in the next film.

 

I actually really like the fact that the dwarves are portrayed at a disadvantage in this film, because that's what they are - Gandalf is their only real advantage, everyone else is out to get them. They have no Rohan or Gondor to ally with. I think Jackson overplays this (as with a lot of things), but the dwarves' arc is by no means the same as the fellowship.

post #359 of 963

Would someone mind laying out what was Appendices material (aside from Radagast, Dol Guldur, and the Council meeting), as well as Jackson material (the Frodo/Bilbo intro)? I'm curious what I might have not realized to be extraneous.

post #360 of 963

Also, a group of 12 dwarves on foot, especially when there are maybe only four or five seasoned fighters in the bunch, may find themselves outclassed when set against armed and armored cavalry (warglry?). There are a lot of those things and everything about them, from the orc on down to the mount itself, is terrifying prospect. Can't take them all out at once. With the goblins in the cave, it was a case of being surprised and overpowered extremely quickly after falling a very long distance.

post #361 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega View Post

I meant ALL THE EXPANDED STUFF IN THE HOBBIT!

 

Jesus dude.

My apologies. Seriously. I thought you were referring to the LOTR expanded stuff.

 

Yeah, I can't argue too much with you there, although I thought the Radagast at Dol Gildur stuff was neat. But overall, it was clunky.

post #362 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post

Would someone mind laying out what was Appendices material, as well as Jackson material? Some of it I know but not all, so I was curious what I might have not realized to be extraneous.

 

Off the top of my head:

 

Appendices stuff - Erebor scenes at beginning; Battle at Moria scene; White Council (although it didn't take place at that point in the story).

 

Jackson stuff - Frodo and Bilbo intro; all of the Radagast scenes I think (although Radagast was in the appendices, just not in the way the film described); Azog and the warg attacks between the Shire and Rivendell.

post #363 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Mike View Post

 

Jackson stuff - Frodo and Bilbo intro; all of the Radagast scenes I think (although Radagast was in the appendices, just not in the way the film described); Azog and the warg attacks between the Shire and Rivendell.

 

Azog is indeed from the Appendices. Though he has been altered.

post #364 of 963

Makes you wonder why they didn't keep Azog normal: have him kill the grandfather, have him die at Moria and then have Bolg hunt Thorin instead.

post #365 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post

Makes you wonder why they didn't keep Azog normal: have him kill the grandfather, have him die at Moria and then have Bolg hunt Thorin instead.

 

I was wondering this myself. Why bring back Azog, when you could have the orc villian be a foil to Thorin?

post #366 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post

"Here lies Balin, son of Fundin, Lord of Moria. He is dead then."

Balin's in the tomb. The dead dwarf holding the book is Ori.
post #367 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTyres View Post

I was wondering this myself. Why bring back Azog, when you could have the orc villian be a foil to Thorin?

Perhaps Azog will be dealt with in the next film, and Bolg will be the leader of the goblins in film 3?
post #368 of 963

I don't know guys, this was pretty weird. Most people have already echoed much of the good and bad points of this movie. For me it felt like the Hobbit but not the Hobbit. I'll just go ahead and list some things.

 

-The prologues felt awkward, with Bilbo over explaining Erebor's wealth, to weird Ian Holm makeup and flashing back again to actually start the Hobbit.

-I'm not sure why we had to spend an hour in Bilbo's house. The singing was okay, but there's a reason it wasn't in LoTR.

-Martin Freeman didn't really feel like Bilbo until Riddles in the Dark. Which is weird because that was the scene that was shot first.

-Radagast the Brown, The White Council,etc. were interesting but took place in another movie more tied to Lord of the Rings.

-Really felt bad for Christopher Lee being so old.

-Actually a lot of Rivendell felt like the start of the Lord of the Rings Holiday Special.

-Azog felt like he was from World of Warcraft.

-The hint of giant spiders was just cruel.

-I'm still not sure why the party ditched Gandalf at Rivendell.

-Everyone should have died in that mountain.

-I really loved the heroic dwarf theme music.

-I'm still interested in seeing the next one for giant spiders and the dragon.

post #369 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Untitled View Post

-I'm still not sure why the party ditched Gandalf at Rivendell.

 

So that they could leave Rivendell quietly and without the Council's knowledge. Remember, Saruman and Elrond aren't super-thrilled at the idea of the dwarves attempting to reclaim Erebor, so Gandalf basically runs interference while Thorin, Bilbo, and the rest make their getaway.

post #370 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Untitled View Post

I don't know guys, this was pretty weird. Most people have already echoed much of the good and bad points of this movie. For me it felt like the Hobbit but not the Hobbit. I'll just go ahead and list some things.

 

-The prologues felt awkward, with Bilbo over explaining Erebor's wealth, to weird Ian Holm makeup and flashing back again to actually start the Hobbit.

-I'm not sure why we had to spend an hour in Bilbo's house. The singing was okay, but there's a reason it wasn't in LoTR.

-Martin Freeman didn't really feel like Bilbo until Riddles in the Dark. Which is weird because that was the scene that was shot first.

-Radagast the Brown, The White Council,etc. were interesting but took place in another movie more tied to Lord of the Rings.

-Really felt bad for Christopher Lee being so old.

-Actually a lot of Rivendell felt like the start of the Lord of the Rings Holiday Special.

-Azog felt like he was from World of Warcraft.

-The hint of giant spiders was just cruel.

-I'm still not sure why the party ditched Gandalf at Rivendell.

-Everyone should have died in that mountain.

-I'm still interested in seeing the next one for giant spiders and the dragon.

 

 

• Music has always been a big part of LOTR. Both Pippin and Aragorn have performances in Return of the King. The Hobbit is a lighter story in a brighter setting, so it works better.

• Bilbo doesn't grown into the feisty little guy we love until he has the serious brushes with death he faces in The Hobbit. It made sense for him to still be reluctant and weak until circumstances force him to become brave.

• I think Christopher Lee actually looked younger than Ian McKellen. I think they may have done some digital work on him.

• I actually wished we had spent more time in Rivendell, and less time in other locales. Given that Bilbo decides to spend the rest of his life there, I would have enjoyed more scenes with him, and less time with Gandalf flirting with Galadriel.

• The party left Gandalf at Rivendell because they believed the Council would do what they could to stop them. Gandalf knew the Dwarves were going to leave before anyone could stop them, and it suited Gandalf's agenda for them to do so -- he and Galadriel have a telepathic conversation that explains this almost explicitly.

• Yeah... the rock titans scene was pretty crazy, and it looked like gravity should have taken it's toll on the party, given some of those fighting stances the titans were in.

post #371 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by agracru View Post

 

So that they could leave Rivendell quietly and without the Council's knowledge. Remember, Saruman and Elrond aren't super-thrilled at the idea of the dwarves attempting to reclaim Erebor, so Gandalf basically runs interference while Thorin, Bilbo, and the rest make their getaway.


Ah that does make sense.

post #372 of 963
It certainly has an interesting structure, this film. It's really hard to make a proper judgement on the pacing and amount of time spent on certain things until the other films are out - particularly Bilbo's story. I guess how much you enjoy it comes down to how self-contained you feel each film should be, maybe. And how much singing you can take (I thought the dwarves singing the Lonely Mountain song was pretty cool, actually, despite the pacing of the scenes around being so wobbly).
post #373 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.T. View Post


• I actually wished we had spent more time in Rivendell, and less time in other locales. Given that Bilbo decides to spend the rest of his life there, I would have enjoyed more scenes with him, and less time with Gandalf flirting with Galadriel.

I believe there is a scene cut from the film where bilbo sees the shards of Narsil while in rivendell, so perhaps they'll have more of this on the extended edition everyone's dying to see!
post #374 of 963

Two things!

 

1 - Seeing if my account still works.  It's been a while, but it's looking like it is.

 

B - I genuinely loved the movie, even while recognizing and acknowledging all of the issues and complaints others have had with it.  For the most part those very real issues simply didn't bother me very much.  I guess I am more okay with Middle Earth "bloat" than I am with King Kong "bloat," as I did not care much for his King Kong adaptation.  My only real issues were with the uber-implausibility of any of them surviving the rock giant's battle, as well as the fall to the bottom of the goblin's mountain.  Even in my fantasy movies I like a since of "realism," as odd as that sounds.

 

Bottom line...I won't argue with anyone that has problems with this movie, but I happened to love the heck out of it, and am looking forward to the next two.

post #375 of 963

Something I really liked about the White Council scene that everyone is down on: Gandalf is clearly the least powerful guy in the room. It's a neat dynamic for him to be in, and the way everyone treats him is kind of cool. Saruman smacks him around like he's a jackass, Elrond has a half bemused, half smug regard, and Galadriel wants to throw him a bone, so to speak.

 

I've seen the movie three times now, and it looks like I'm gonna be an apologist for the long haul on this one. I think I liked it best the third time in fact. And my Dad, who read the novel out loud to me when I was five, just fucking loved it, so that helped.

post #376 of 963

I thought of some other small things that would have made this movie better for me.  I know this is wishing for another movie instead of dealing with what I've got, but its fun to think on these things.

 

Along with Guillermo Del Toro, maybe make the entire movie a glorified Princess Bride.  Have Bilbo telling a very young Frodo the greatest bed time story EVAR.  You would get to have some fun with the unreliable narrator thing where Frodo adds to the vision of the story or Bilbo embelishes.  Maybe a Drunk History type thing where the characters in the story react and break the fourth wall for a beat.   It's a kids story right?  So why not go all the way and make it the coolest best fairy tale for kids imaginable?  Why does it have to be a poor imitation of the Rings trilogy?  While you're doing the fairy tale thing, get the dudes who made the Deathly Hallows animated segment to animate the story of the dwarves and Eramere.

post #377 of 963

I enjoyed the hell out of this movie and I knew it was going to end at some point but GODDAMN I didn't want it to end. Jackson's cinematic interpretation of Middle Earth is so much fun to watch unfold on the screen that you can't help but be transported there.

 

Like a lot of folks I read the Hobbit in elementary school was immediately hooked on this world of hobbits, dwarves, wizards and monsters. I really enjoyed the wraparound segment at the beginning with Bilbo & Frodo as well as the Fall of Erebor and War of Dwarves and Orcs stuff as well. I cannot wait to see this again!

 

The wait till next December is going to suck. Dammit.

post #378 of 963

Liked the dramatic parts; hated the action sequences. The characters in The Hobbit exist in a world without physics or consequence. In contrast with the awesome make-up of LOTR, the CGI is overused and very cartoonish. The goblin sequence was like watching someone play a hobbit side scrolling platformer.

post #379 of 963

Saw it yesterday with family. I enjoyed it, but I'd echo a lot of the pacing problems people have noted (I haven't read all eight pages of his thread).

 

I think what would have helped the Hobbit adaptation more than anything else would have been to have been made prior to the Lord of the Rings. The tying together scenes were nice, in a way, but they were also entirely unnecessary. I honestly think they could have cut an hour out of this and only made the movie better.

 

There were also a few dodgier fx shots than I expected. There were a few Goblin kingdom sequences, and Gandalf getting off the eagle looked terrible.

post #380 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ben Grimm View Post

I honestly think they could have cut an hour out of this and only made the movie better.

 

The cuts to make are quite easy.

 

Old Bilbo looks at the picture of his younger self and laughs. Cut to "An Unexpected Journey" and Freeman smoking the pipe. You've just lost 10 minutes of needless fat. Elijah Wood is awesome as Frodo but there was zero need of seeing him here.

 

Also put the closing shot of Smaug right after Bilbo's return to the pack and promising to help them get their home back. That's heartfelt. It's moving and the group has accepted him. That's the ending. There's no point to that 15 minutes of extra action since the awful CG Orc King isn't dead and it merely reiterated what just happened, i.e. the dwarfs see Bilbo as their equal.

That's 25 minutes right there and lose the fucking songs (Absolutely pointless - save that for the Extended Edition).

post #381 of 963

The reason you need the end with the orcs is that Thorin still doesn't see Bilbo as his equal. All the other dwarves are on the Bilbo train. Thorin's a bit of a harder sell, and frankly having him embrace Bilbo with the other dwarves after escaping the goblin mines would have felt cheap and easy.

 

That said, I didn't much care for the GIANT DRAGON EYE shot at all and I think the consensus here is that the opening with Bilbo and Frodo should have been removed entirely. But leave my dwarf songs alone!

post #382 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post

I've seen the movie three times now, and it looks like I'm gonna be an apologist for the long haul on this one. I think I liked it best the third time in fact. And my Dad, who read the novel out loud to me when I was five, just fucking loved it, so that helped.

 

Out of curiosity, which format(s) have you watched the film in?

 

Oh and I loved the GIANT DRAGON EYE - amazing shot.


Edited by Samurai Mike - 12/24/12 at 7:53am
post #383 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by agracru View Post

The reason you need the end with the orcs is that Thorin still doesn't see Bilbo as his equal. All the other dwarves are on the Bilbo train. Thorin's a bit of a harder sell, and frankly having him embrace Bilbo with the other dwarves after escaping the goblin mines would have felt cheap and easy.

 

Then make that his arc for Film # 2.

post #384 of 963

Then people would be complaining about Bilbo and Thorin not having a complete arc in film one.

post #385 of 963

It's not satisfying here either, since he doesn't start harrumphing about Bilbo until after they leave Rivendell. It's a third act resolution to a character flaw not introduced until the third act; it's rushed and unearned. Hell, Thorin leaves a signed contract for Bilbo and welcomes him into the party when he turns up--but they never speak as characters to one another. We don't get why Thorin is all of a sudden "Fuck the little guy, he's slowing us down!" because Bilbo really hasn't been slowing them down. In Lord of the Rings, we got the Merry's (and especially Gandalf's) frustration with Pippin, because he was constantly being oblivious and bumbling things up. What's Bilbo fucking up that sets Thorin off? All the things slowing them down are external forces (and the movie's pacing, hey-o!). Thorin's sudden distaste of having the hobbit in his party comes off as arbitrary and forced, so resolving it (especially with a weakass non-starter of a threat as Azog) feels unearned and unwanted.

post #386 of 963

Of course, if the movie wasn't split into three parts, that wouldn't be an issue at all. 

post #387 of 963

Thorin's distaste for Bilbo isn't sudden, though. He wants nothing to do with Bilbo from the very beginning. Gandalf's nagging marks the only reason Thorin entertains (or pretends to entertain) the notion of letting Bilbo sign on as the company's burglar; as soon as Bilbo catches up with the rest of the pack, Thorin (and, yes, the rest of the dwarves, who are all much more easily persuaded of Bilbo's worth) scoffs at him. He scoffs at the poor guy after the incident with the trolls-- Gandalf even directly rebukes Thorin for his callousness.

 

And it's irrelevant that Bilbo doesn't really slow them down or complicate things. Thorin happens to be really damn prideful and arrogant despite his better qualities. (Though, let's be honest, Bilbo does kinda get them into that whole snafu with the trolls, though Fili and Kili deserve a share of complicity in that affair. And Bilbo's insistence on stupid things-- like going back so he can get his handkerchief-- isn't exactly "nothing", either.) It doesn't matter that we the audience see Bilbo's value, or even that Balin and the others do-- Thorin doesn't. And I don't think you can leave this film off without them meeting in the middle, else you run the risk of leaving Thorin's eventual banishment of Bilbo over the Arkenstone feeling really half-cooked.

post #388 of 963

But what's Thorin's problem with Bilbo that causes him to say "Fuck you, go home" when the rest of the dwarf company is equally as bumbling and almost as inept? When Gandalf picks him to come, Thorin just shrugs and says "Whatever, it's not on me if he dies." But suddenly he's a detriment after the lesson in how to ignore physics that is the rock giants happens? It's completely relevant, because it should actually feel like a choice Bilbo has to make--go home like the big warrior says, or buckle down and start contributing? It's a choice he makes, but we don't feel it, because Bilbo's just along for the ride until the fight with Azog. And once more, the movie's supposed to be about Bilbo, but has little interest in really defining him (and no, a quip about forgetting his hanky doesn't satisfy the arc).

post #389 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clark View Post

But what's Thorin's problem with Bilbo that causes him to say "Fuck you, go home" when the rest of the dwarf company is equally as bumbling and almost as inept?

 

Probably the fact that Thorin's kind of a racist asshole. He's specifically prejudiced against Elves, but he clearly favors his own kind above all others (Gandalf being the exception because he's fucking Gandalf). Why do the dwarves even need this little Shire-bound dandy? What is their plight to him? Nobody helped Thorin's people when Smaug came calling, and nobody really lent his race a hand in the intervening years, either, so as far as it concerns him Bilbo's presence is totally unnecessary-- because he's not a dwarf, and if you're not a dwarf, what good are you?

 

It's not just a hanky, either. It's the fact that Bilbo's a pussy. He's a milquetoast. He has no experience with fighting or adventuring of any kind, and while the 13 dwarves aren't all Balins or Dwalins they know the world better than Bilbo. Bilbo's a naif. I almost don't blame Thorin for being such a jag toward the poor guy, despite my foreknowledge of Bilbo's eventual triumphs.

 

I don't know, when Bilbo tried to leave after the boring as shit stone giants sequence and had his little heart-to-heart with Bofur, I felt it. It's a decision. The only reason he doesn't leave is because this is The Hobbit, and shit just happens to this group left and right. But I don't think you can rightfully say he doesn't make a decision. That's bullshit. He absolutely does. But he finds himself disempowered to follow up on that decision because fate has an obnoxious sense of humor.

post #390 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by FilmNerdJamie View Post

Also put the closing shot of Smaug right after Bilbo's return to the pack and promising to help them get their home back. That's heartfelt. It's moving and the group has accepted him. That's the ending. There's no point to that 15 minutes of extra action since the awful CG Orc King isn't dead and it merely reiterated what just happened, i.e. the dwarfs see Bilbo as their equal.

 

Completely disagree with this.  You need that moment of Thorin accepting Bilbo.  Simply saying, "Fuck it, we'll push that into the next one," is an awful way to approach a story.  There needs to be a reason for An Unexpected Journey to exist as its own film, and that's it.  For Bilbo and Thorin.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clark View Post

It's not satisfying here either, since he doesn't start harrumphing about Bilbo until after they leave Rivendell. It's a third act resolution to a character flaw not introduced until the third act; it's rushed and unearned. Hell, Thorin leaves a signed contract for Bilbo and welcomes him into the party when he turns up--but they never speak as characters to one another. We don't get why Thorin is all of a sudden "Fuck the little guy, he's slowing us down!" because Bilbo really hasn't been slowing them down. In Lord of the Rings, we got the Merry's (and especially Gandalf's) frustration with Pippin, because he was constantly being oblivious and bumbling things up. What's Bilbo fucking up that sets Thorin off? All the things slowing them down are external forces (and the movie's pacing, hey-o!). Thorin's sudden distaste of having the hobbit in his party comes off as arbitrary and forced, so resolving it (especially with a weakass non-starter of a threat as Azog) feels unearned and unwanted.

 

Did you miss act one?  How Thorin treats Bilbo at Bag End?  "I cannot guarantee his safety, nor will I be responsible for his fate?"  Thorin doesn't want him there, and the only reason he's in the group is because Gandalf is so goddamn persistent.

 

What sets Thorin off is that Bilbo nearly falls to his death when everybody else made it through the giant battle okay; then, when trying to rescue Bilbo, Thorin nearly falls.  Bilbo is a burden that will get the rest of them killed.  It's rather simple.

post #391 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clark View Post

But what's Thorin's problem with Bilbo that causes him to say "Fuck you, go home" when the rest of the dwarf company is equally as bumbling and almost as inept? When Gandalf picks him to come, Thorin just shrugs and says "Whatever, it's not on me if he dies."

 

I figured it's because Bilbo is just a hired hand - Thorin's never really convinced he needs Bilbo along at all, and as he said, he wants "loyalty, honour, a willing heart". Which he sees in his fellow dwarves.

post #392 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by agracru View Post

 

Probably the fact that Thorin's kind of a racist asshole. He's specifically prejudiced against Elves, but he clearly favors his own kind above all others (Gandalf being the exception because he's fucking Gandalf). Why do the dwarves even need this little Shire-bound dandy? What is their plight to him? Nobody helped Thorin's people when Smaug came calling, and nobody really lent his race a hand in the intervening years, either, so as far as it concerns him Bilbo's presence is totally unnecessary-- because he's not a dwarf, and if you're not a dwarf, what good are you?

 

I don't think Thorin's a racist but he does have a severe persecution complex. He's seen his people go from rulers of a great kingdom to wandering toymakers. And the ones who didn't help against the dragon (namely the elves) are now who he needs permission from to even try and get it back. It's the most literal case of 'small-man syndrome' in Middle Earth. He accepts Gandalf's offer of help not so much out of friendship but out of desperation, but it's an unselfish desperation at least.

 

I think the issue for many people with Thorin may be that they expect another Aragorn, a humble yet noble friend to all; and perhaps Jackson almost wanted him to be Aragorn here, and it sits a little awkwardly because Thorin is NOT Aragorn. 

post #393 of 963

Persecution complex is a perfect way to describe Thorin.

 

And hey... you see Lee Pace's cold snooty stare from upon his reindeer?  You're gonna hate! 

post #394 of 963

Catching up with the thread here.

 

Left-brain report:

 

People bitching about 48fps remind me of when automobile drivers were required to have a footman precede them on the street, waving a flag. It's the future: it's smoother, it's more real. There's no reason save nostalgia for insisting that 24fps is all the persistence-of-vision we'll ever need, and I feel similarly for 3D. Whether a large-scale fantasy should have been the first subject for said increased realism is another question.

 

Considering the technological advances, the movie feels quite consistent stylistically with the LOTR films. Only one thing stuck out for me-- I don't recall there being quite so much subtitled dialogue.

 

Right-brain report:

 

I like how the movie avoids giving away too much about Gollum and the Ring while still introducing enough foreshadowing to lead into LOTR. So far, it's working as a proper prologue, not just a prequel.

 

Props to Howard Shore for coming up with a kickass new theme (the Misty Mountains Song) and not relying too heavily on his previous scores.

 

Martin Freeman is an absolute natural as Bilbo, and his resemblance to Ian Holm clinches it.


Edited by Hammerhead - 12/24/12 at 2:04pm
post #395 of 963
Twice in IMAX 3d, once in standard (seemed a big step down, too). I might use HFR as an excuse to check it out again if its still playing in that format come late January.

And seriously, Thorin and Bilbo's relationship can't actually be anyone's real problem with this. We're just debating to debate.
post #396 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post

And seriously, Thorin and Bilbo's relationship can't actually be anyone's real problem with this. We're just debating to debate.

What relationship? They hardly speak to each other until the last half hour.

 

It's disquieting to see some real concerns are constantly getting waved off as people just wanting to pick this apart. It's got glaring, crippling and obvious issues. If you didn't mind them then bully, I guess, but the mindset that we're just inventing them whole cloth is ridiculous.

post #397 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerhead View Post

Catching up with the thread here.

 

Left-brain report:

 

People bitching about 48fps remind me of when automobile drivers were required to have a footman precede them on the street, waving a flag. It's the future: it's smoother, it's more real. There's no reason save nostalgia for insisting that 24fps is all the persistence-of-vision we'll ever need, and I feel similarly for 3D. Whether a large-scale fantasy should have been the first subject for said increased realism is another question.

 

 

This is fucking nonsense. 

post #398 of 963

"Man, this 24 frames a second is really bringing the overall experience of watching a movie down a notch. When WILL someone finally fix this problem?!" said no one ever.

post #399 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clark View Post

What relationship? They hardly speak to each other until the last half hour.

 

It's disquieting to see some real concerns are constantly getting waved off as people just wanting to pick this apart. It's got glaring, crippling and obvious issues. If you didn't mind them then bully, I guess, but the mindset that we're just inventing them whole cloth is ridiculous.

 

It's disquieting to see all the evidence provided in support of the other side of the argument get written off as blind zealotry, too. I'm also not sure how to argue with someone who keeps begging the question. Look, you keep saying that they have no relationship-- I keep explaining how they do based on what the movie shows us. You keep saying that everything that happens in the last half hour happens out of nowhere-- I keep pointing out that there's groundwork laid earlier in the film that leads up to it. If you want to wave all of that away and act indignant that's your prerogative. 

 

As far as the 48 FPS goes, I agree that the car comparison is kind of nutty. Is this the way future (the way of the future)? Maybe. Right now, though, it's just an option, another way to watch a movie, not the only way and I don't think it should be the only way because not every movie needs this sort of sheen. I could watch a big spectacle like this in 48 FPS. I don't really know if I think Holy Motors and films like it need to be seen in 48 FPS. 

post #400 of 963

To be fair, people probably said the same thing about those horrible "innovations" sound and color. I know people who saw the one of the first movies, which showed a train coming directly at the screen, freaked out.

 

I think it's the Hype Machine telling us that 48 frames per second is The Future And You Are a Stick In The Mud Pleistocene Era Sub-Human If You Don't Buy Into It that has people irritated. Cameron does the same thing about 3D. The problem is, he and Scorcese are the only ones treating 3D as something other than a cheap gag.

 

The Studios have a vested interest in pushing these new technologies on us as a way of protecting the Theatrical Film experience.

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