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The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey Post-Release - Page 14

post #651 of 963
I like that opening shot of Ian Holm with his forehead wrinkles taped upward and his Tom Baker wig. That's practical effects, son.
post #652 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post

Hey! It’s not my fault I like things to be right! I can’t tell you how much turmoil my soul was in when I discovered that you could have spaces in your forum name here.

 

Heh. To be fair, I used to feel the same way. back when the Star Wars special editions first came out, I thought the changes were awesome - but over time, I found that even if intellectually I knew the new stuff matched up better, psychologically that attachment to the old way never went away and it never felt right.

 

Mind you, seeing as we all KNOW that Disney are going to put out the original versions again at some point that stuff still won't work for future generations, whereas if Jackson placed Freeman into the intro to FOTR that'd probably be less controversial, stay in the film and be less than an issue to future generations.

 

So my point is... I'm old?

post #653 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Mike View Post

 

Regarding the physics - you have to remember that while the original LOTR films did convey a sense of reality in their world physics, the character of Legolas shat on that from a great height several times. The dwarves have to have SOMETHING that makes them special, otherwise they'd just be a bunch of short fat people. Dwarves are supposed to be extremely strong, so swatting away goblins like flies seems right to me. Regarding the lack of fall damage/casualties: well that's pushing it I agree, but if it had been elves they'd just surf down the damn rocks and no-one would blink an eyelid.

 

Legolas's superheroics were supposed to be impressive because he was doing shit that regular people (much less dwarves and hobbits) couldn't.  People went nuts for that stuff because it was used sparingly and made a big deal of.  It was special; that sort of thing would get incredibly numbing if the fellowship had consisted of 13 Legali all doing it constantly.  

 

Besides that, it was discussed earlier how, Thorin and Dwalin aside, this group is not supposed to represent the creme de la creme of dwarven warriors.  The movie goes out of its way to establish that these are not superheroes, which is of a piece with Tolkien's themes throughout this and LOTR - he certainly thinks Aragorn is awesome, but he's much more impressed by the mediocre rising to the occasion despite themselves (hence all the, you know, hobbits) than supermen being super.

 

Besides that, I never got the sense that we were supposed to be blown away by how much ass the dwarves were kicking in the sequence.  They just kept stumbling into murdering dozens and dozens of goblins. It seemed like every time someone wound up to swing his axe at one goblin, he would accidentally knock two off the cliff with the backswing.  That's partly a CGI issue - after a while, you start to notice that the actors don't ever really focus on their enemies, and it becomes apparent that they are just being animated in wherever they happen to flail.  Mostly its an issue of the interminability of the sequence. The threat never really changes - it's always mobs of goblins.  But they just sort of shrug through the first two mobs, seemingly killing as many by accident as through skill or guile, and it makes it impossible to get wound up the next ten times they get swarmed.

post #654 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Mike View Post

 

Regarding the physics - you have to remember that while the original LOTR films did convey a sense of reality in their world physics, the character of Legolas shat on that from a great height several times. The dwarves have to have SOMETHING that makes them special, otherwise they'd just be a bunch of short fat people. Dwarves are supposed to be extremely strong, so swatting away goblins like flies seems right to me. Regarding the lack of fall damage/casualties: well that's pushing it I agree, but if it had been elves they'd just surf down the damn rocks and no-one would blink an eyelid.


Beyond the sidescrolling platformer feel, I could swear Bombur pulls off the Mario Butt Slam...
 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Besides that, I never got the sense that we were supposed to be blown away by how much ass the dwarves were kicking in the sequence.  They just kept stumbling into murdering dozens and dozens of goblins. It seemed like every time someone wound up to swing his axe at one goblin, he would accidentally knock two off the cliff with the backswing.  That's partly a CGI issue - after a while, you start to notice that the actors don't ever really focus on their enemies, and it becomes apparent that they are just being animated in wherever they happen to flail.  Mostly its an issue of the interminability of the sequence. The threat never really changes - it's always mobs of goblins.  But they just sort of shrug through the first two mobs, seemingly killing as many by accident as through skill or guile, and it makes it impossible to get wound up the next ten times they get swarmed.

Compare that, to say, JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS where every skeleton and every sailor had to be painstakingly lined up with stop-motion and rear projection and it took months to pull off convincing contact. I know PJ's a Harryhausen fan, but maybe he should take note (or remember) that sometimes (most times) "focus and intensity" is better than "more and crazier".

post #655 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post

Does anyone know if there are plans to re-release Fellowship Of The Ring with the scene of Freeman finding the ring replacing that of the one they filmed showing Ian Holm? 

 

 

I hope not, I like the idea that Bilbos' story changes because of his reluctance to admit how he got it.  Simliar to Smegol lying about how he got it, the idea of the rings corruption starting with "white" lies appeals to me *shrug*

post #656 of 963
Quote:
Compare that, to say, JASON AND THE ARGONAUTS where every skeleton and every sailor had to be painstakingly lined up with stop-motion and rear projection and it took months to pull off convincing contact. I know PJ's a Harryhausen fan, but maybe he should take note (or remember) that sometimes (most times) "focus and intensity" is better than "more and crazier".

 

It's also why the fight at Amon Hen trumps every action sequence in this movie. It's all real people doing real things with wonderful choreography and intensity.

post #657 of 963

Speaking of Mario, for those bothered by none of the dwarves dying after some of those big falls, what you're likely forgetting is that, after you knock over a certain number of enemies in a row, for every one after you get a 1up.

post #658 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by LaurenOrtega View Post

 

It's also why the fight at Amon Hen trumps every action sequence in this movie. It's all real people doing real things with wonderful choreography and intensity.

 

Is that the dwarf war flashback? Because to me at least that fighting looked super slow/obviously staged, like these guys were barely tapping each other with their plastic weapons. Normally that kind of stuff blows right by me, which is why I remember so distinctly thinking "wait, that doesn't look right." I never had that problem with any of the action scenes in the original trilogy, so I don't know if it was the 48fps making things a little too clear or if it was just wonky choreography that caught my eye this time around, but it definitely stood out.

post #659 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Besides that, I never got the sense that we were supposed to be blown away by how much ass the dwarves were kicking in the sequence.  They just kept stumbling into murdering dozens and dozens of goblins. It seemed like every time someone wound up to swing his axe at one goblin, he would accidentally knock two off the cliff with the backswing.  That's partly a CGI issue - after a while, you start to notice that the actors don't ever really focus on their enemies, and it becomes apparent that they are just being animated in wherever they happen to flail.  Mostly its an issue of the interminability of the sequence. The threat never really changes - it's always mobs of goblins.  But they just sort of shrug through the first two mobs, seemingly killing as many by accident as through skill or guile, and it makes it impossible to get wound up the next ten times they get swarmed.

 

 

Yeah but at the same time I also got the idea that the goblins were never meant to be a massive threat either - they're basically a bunch of goons ruled by a slightly bigger goon. Azog and his crowd - they're the elites. The goblins of Goblintown are just like the goblins in Moria: no real match for our heroes (hell, they even get taken out by the hobbits, who are hardly veterans at that point). The swarming is kind of the point.

 

Now I know having an enemy that's no threat takes us dangerously into battle droid territory, but spending the first half of the film being hounded by Azog and his crew, this was just a chance to see the dwarves kick some ass in their element (underground). I thought the whole sequence was technically amazing and quite imaginative, and rather cathartic after watching the dwarves chased, talked down to, and babysat through the first two acts. It also made a fun counterpoint to the Riddles in the Dark, which I'd argue were the real action scene.

 

There will no doubt be plenty of 'high stakes' scenes in the next two films (after the overblown epicness of Return of the King, I enjoyed the rather 'shits and giggles' tone of Goblintown). 

 

Also, we should all get past this idea that CGI is not a complicated element of filmmaking. It takes timing and choreography just as much as traditional action scenes. The action scenes in the original LOTR films are better I agree, but they have their faults: rubber swords, visible stand-ins, paper armour, 'running at the good guy one at a time' syndrome, etc. We're just more used to not noticing it.

post #660 of 963

On a slightly off-topic note, I saw Martin Freeman wandering around Soho today. Dude is natty.

post #661 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatoon View Post

 

Is that the dwarf war flashback? Because to me at least that fighting looked super slow/obviously staged, like these guys were barely tapping each other with their plastic weapons. Normally that kind of stuff blows right by me, which is why I remember so distinctly thinking "wait, that doesn't look right." I never had that problem with any of the action scenes in the original trilogy, so I don't know if it was the 48fps making things a little too clear or if it was just wonky choreography that caught my eye this time around, but it definitely stood out.

The Dwarf Flashback is located at Moria.

 

The fight at Amon Hem is the last action scene in FotR. Starts at a little stony construction on top of a hill, then goes down the hill leading to Boromir's death and Aragorn vs the 'hero'/leader Urak Hai.

 

Edit: I looked his name up, it was Lurtz.

post #662 of 963

Ah, then I concur. That scene was dope.

post #663 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Mike View Post

 

Yeah but at the same time I also got the idea that the goblins were never meant to be a massive threat either - they're basically a bunch of goons ruled by a slightly bigger goon. Azog and his crowd - they're the elites. The goblins of Goblintown are just like the goblins in Moria: no real match for our heroes (hell, they even get taken out by the hobbits, who are hardly veterans at that point). The swarming is kind of the point.

 

Now I know having an enemy that's no threat takes us dangerously into battle droid territory, but spending the first half of the film being hounded by Azog and his crew, this was just a chance to see the dwarves kick some ass in their element (underground). I thought the whole sequence was technically amazing and quite imaginative, and rather cathartic after watching the dwarves chased, talked down to, and babysat through the first two acts. It also made a fun counterpoint to the Riddles in the Dark, which I'd argue were the real action scene.

 

There will no doubt be plenty of 'high stakes' scenes in the next two films (after the overblown epicness of Return of the King, I enjoyed the rather 'shits and giggles' tone of Goblintown). 

 

Also, we should all get past this idea that CGI is not a complicated element of filmmaking. It takes timing and choreography just as much as traditional action scenes. The action scenes in the original LOTR films are better I agree, but they have their faults: rubber swords, visible stand-ins, paper armour, 'running at the good guy one at a time' syndrome, etc. We're just more used to not noticing it.

 

Of course they're supposed to be a threat.  Action scenes don't work if there is no threat.  But the goblins in Fellowship are presented as a more serious one.  When an enormous number surrounds them after they flee the tomb, it's obvious that it's lights out for our heroes.  Then the Balrog makes his appearance and it's out of the frying pan, etc.  If after being surrounded, the Fellowship just sort of jogged through the whole crowd without suffering a scratch, then spent the next ten minutes being chased by the same group of schlubs, that would've been a shitty action sequence too.

 

I mean, I know these aren't elite enemies or anything and this is the relatively "light" portion of the adventure, but you just can't have a chase scene where it doesn't make half a shit of difference if the bad guys catch up to the heroes.  Right?  Shouldn't that be a rule?  We should totally make that a rule.  

 

I wouldn't call Riddles in the Dark an action scene by any stretch, but it is certainly more exciting than the actual action sequence.  As to CGI, I never said it was less complicated or meticulous to create than live action...er, action.  But it has its own pitfalls.  Like you have to take care with a live action scene to disguise the rubber swords and try not to make it too obvious that the bad guys are waiting their turn to run at the good guy, with CG you inversely have to restrain yourself from inserting a bad guy in perfect place to receive a blow every time the hero cocks his elbow and another to dive over his head at every stumble just because you have the ability to draw them in there.  Both draw attention to the choreographed nature of the action in their own way.

post #664 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Of course they're supposed to be a threat.  Action scenes don't work if there is no threat.

 

Tell it to The Avengers!

post #665 of 963

UGH...

 

Guys the Avengers is sooooo good.

post #666 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey View Post

Speaking of Mario, for those bothered by none of the dwarves dying after some of those big falls, what you're likely forgetting is that, after you knock over a certain number of enemies in a row, for every one after you get a 1up.


I'd claim that lucky 14, Bilbo, was the reason they were able to form Voltron and succeed, but Bilbo ("And I'll form the pocket handkerchief!") wasn't even around.

post #667 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

 

Of course they're supposed to be a threat.  Action scenes don't work if there is no threat.  But the goblins in Fellowship are presented as a more serious one.  When an enormous number surrounds them after they flee the tomb, it's obvious that it's lights out for our heroes.  Then the Balrog makes his appearance and it's out of the frying pan, etc.  If after being surrounded, the Fellowship just sort of jogged through the whole crowd without suffering a scratch, then spent the next ten minutes being chased by the same group of schlubs, that would've been a shitty action sequence too.

 

I mean, I know these aren't elite enemies or anything and this is the relatively "light" portion of the adventure, but you just can't have a chase scene where it doesn't make half a shit of difference if the bad guys catch up to the heroes.  Right?  Shouldn't that be a rule?  We should totally make that a rule.  

 

 

Well for a start I don't think it's fair to compare the Fellowship in Moria sequence to Goblintown. Although they share obvious similarities, they're very different sequences, in different stories, designed to provoke different responses.

 

I think a better comparison might be the escape from Cloud City in The Empire Strikes Back (yeah you heard me). Were the stormtroopers a threat when they caught Han, Leia and co off guard, surrounded and captured them? Certainly. Were they a threat later on when Leia, Chewie, Lando and the droids make their escape? Barely at all. Leia and Chewie destroy them, the baddies practically walk into their lasers. Artoo even fools them with his fire extinguisher! Does that make the sequence of them escaping back to the Falcon any less exciting? No, because the escape is about releasing the tension/threat that has built up throughout the Bespin episode.

 

Now I'm not suggesting for a moment that The Hobbit is anywhere near as good as ESB, with any of that film's flawless sense of excitement, wonder, dread, and loss; but c'mon, not EVERY scene has to be about our heroes in terrible danger. The threat in both these sequences is elsewhere, with Gollum and Bilbo/Luke and Vader. I don't know, I think the Fellowship in Moria is the best sequence in LOTR, but I still enjoyed Goblintown for what it was (not Moria) and I think the tone of the film made it feel earned.

post #668 of 963

To hell with y'all; the Goblin Town escape is fun.  It's big, it's silly, it's amusing.  It's The Hobbit.

 

It's interesting to me that people complain that the film has been grafted onto the tonal skeleton of The Lord of the Rings but are then bothered by all of the little details that make this a whimsical story.  The dwarves survive the massive drop for the same reason that Aragorn can toss a heavily armored Gimli fifteen feet at Helm's Deep -- because it's fun.

post #669 of 963

I'm with you Dark Shape, it was a lot of fun.  It reminded me of Hook in a good way. 

post #670 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Shape View Post

To hell with y'all; the Goblin Town escape is fun.  It's big, it's silly, it's amusing.  It's The Hobbit.

 

What he said.

post #671 of 963

Yup, basically what Mike, Freeman and Shape said. I may not have been chewing my fingernails off whilst watching the Goblin Town escape but that didn't mean it wasn't enjoyable. Hell, the entire sequence ended with the main bad guy comically uttering "That'll do it" after being disembowelled. That's pretty much your clue as to the tone Jackson was aiming for here.

post #672 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Mike View Post

 

Well for a start I don't think it's fair to compare the Fellowship in Moria sequence to Goblintown. Although they share obvious similarities, they're very different sequences, in different stories, designed to provoke different responses.

 

And FotR has been acknowledged by many in this thread as being one of the best action sequences of the Rings series and even one of the best of all time. Holding anything up to "the best" means you're often going to be disappointed. Not that we shouldn't expect things to be good, but c'mon. "It's not as good as one of the best things ever" is just asking for trouble.

 

Apart from that, I agree-- like others-- with The Dark Shape. The escape from the mines is enormous fun, and that's really all it needs to be-- especially since the goblins are already established as a threat when they capture the dwarves. (Granted, they do so with the aid of a well-placed false floor, but still.) That scene is the dwarves' time to finally, finally, finally take some measure of control over all the wacky shit that happens to them and just beat ass, and they do-- even though they're not the best of the best, for the most part. Up to that point they've held on for dear life as stone giants batter each other, they've played "duck and cover" while being hunted by orcs, and they've been out-muscled by cave trolls; the mines sequence is their opportunity to show some agency. And they do. And it's a blast. 

post #673 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post

Tell it to The Avengers!

 

Heh. 

 

Look, I do understand that it's supposed to be fun.  But it's also supposed to be exciting, because it is fundamentally an action setpiece, not a comedic one.  And it bored me to tears.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Samurai Mike View Post

 

Well for a start I don't think it's fair to compare the Fellowship in Moria sequence to Goblintown. Although they share obvious similarities, they're very different sequences, in different stories, designed to provoke different responses.

 

I think a better comparison might be the escape from Cloud City in The Empire Strikes Back (yeah you heard me). Were the stormtroopers a threat when they caught Han, Leia and co off guard, surrounded and captured them? Certainly. Were they a threat later on when Leia, Chewie, Lando and the droids make their escape? Barely at all. Leia and Chewie destroy them, the baddies practically walk into their lasers. Artoo even fools them with his fire extinguisher! Does that make the sequence of them escaping back to the Falcon any less exciting? No, because the escape is about releasing the tension/threat that has built up throughout the Bespin episode.

 

Now I'm not suggesting for a moment that The Hobbit is anywhere near as good as ESB, with any of that film's flawless sense of excitement, wonder, dread, and loss; but c'mon, not EVERY scene has to be about our heroes in terrible danger. The threat in both these sequences is elsewhere, with Gollum and Bilbo/Luke and Vader. I don't know, I think the Fellowship in Moria is the best sequence in LOTR, but I still enjoyed Goblintown for what it was (not Moria) and I think the tone of the film made it feel earned.

 

Okay, I swear I'm not just being a pedantic dick about this, because I think there is an important distinction being missed here.  We're conflating a "threat" in terms of a villain's overall presence and competence with the very specific threat that drives an action scene - I'll call it the "danger" to differentiate.  

 

The enemy cannon fodder doesn't have to be terrifyingly imposing on their own, be they goblins or Chitauri or Stormtroopers or the Foot Clan.  They are there to be tossed around for the most part.  But you can't have an action sequence without danger*.  It doesn't have anything to do with the dramatic stakes of the overall story, as long as failure has a consequence - the consequence can be that the entire world will end or that the hero gets grounded.  That's the big picture.  An action sequence is a smaller picture, and the danger is about setting the rules for it specifically.  The Hobbit and ESB, to use that example, both feature escape sequences.  The danger here is that our guys will be caught by the bad guys.  We are to understand, on the most micro level, that the heroes' goal is to stay ahead of them.  That the pursuers are ridiculously inept or slow is (to a degree) irrelevant.  The rules of this little game are that the bad guys catching up = Bad.

 

The stormtroopers, for all their lack of martial prowess or basic survival instincts, never catch Leia and Chewie, so the rules of the game are not violated.  Rigged in the protagonists favor?  Sure, but masking that is sort of the art and hustle of making action movies.  In The Hobbit, the danger is that the goblins will catch up to the dwarves, but they do catch up, early and in great numbers.  And the dwarves just flick them aside at every turn.  The chase then continues, with the same danger, for many times the length of the entire ESB chase.  They're running (and running, and running) to avoid being caught when being caught has been shown to have no consequence.

 

I honestly don't want everyone to hate The Hobbit, I just hope this makes some sense, because it all feels very intuitive in my head.

 

 

*Just to play Devil's Advocate to myself - there is not much danger to a friendly sparring match a la Morpheus and Neo's training session in The Matrix, but that is a different beast.  It needs to function more as a conversation, with a lot more character beats or important exposition worked in to keep it engaging.

post #674 of 963

Is the danger that the goblins will catch up to the dwarves, or is the danger that the goblins will overwhelm them? There are hundreds of thousands of goblins hanging out in the mines, as far as we can see anyways, so I'm not sure that "catching up" is the danger here as much as it is "flooding the dwarves with superior numbers", and I think there's a distinction there.

post #675 of 963

I found the Goblin Cave escape to be a lot of fun as well.  But in regards to the Avengers comment... at least that movie had the thrill of seeing the team finally coming together as well as seeing them each use their specific skills to use.

 

Hobbit... most of us could probably remember their names for all we get to know them.

 

But still... I just found the escape to be a lot of fun.  You could easily score it to Mario's Starman theme or the Ramones.  It's cute fun.  It's never dangerous, but it was exciting to me.

post #676 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by agracru View Post

Is the danger that the goblins will catch up to the dwarves, or is the danger that the goblins will overwhelm them? There are hundreds of thousands of goblins hanging out in the mines, as far as we can see anyways, so I'm not sure that "catching up" is the danger here as much as it is "flooding the dwarves with superior numbers", and I think there's a distinction there.

 

I guess the way it breaks down is like this: at any given point, they show 10-20 goblins chasing them around (there's only so much room on the screen, crowded as it already is).  We see a dozen goblins catch up to them early in the sequence, and they brush them aside without missing a beat.  So the next time (and the next, and the next) a dozen goblins block their path, big deal.  

 

This is all compounded by the whole sequence starting out on the wrong foot, with the heroes as completely overwhelmed and surrounded as they could possibly be, only to be freed by a wave of Gandalf's hand.  If getting away when they're surrounded by a hundred thousand goblins was that easy, getting away from the next hundred doesn't seem very daunting.

 

Anyway, I've belabored the point more than enough.  I'm probably just bitter that we didn't get more of Salacious Gob (loooved that little bit).

post #677 of 963

I guess the way to look at it is this: Goblintown isn't a 'chase' like Moria was in FOTR. It's a counterattack. Gandalf sends the goblins flying with his spell, kills the Great Goblin, and the dwarves fight their way out, kicking ass all the way. If you're down with that, the sequence is a lot of fun. I need to see it again but my recollection of it was that it was an inventive, exciting sequence without too much repetition. Opinions will vary.

 

Yes, it doesn't fit with what we see in FOTR - those films were made with a far greater sense of darkness, urgency and danger than even the LOTR books, much less the Hobbit. The Hobbit is a much less 'grounded' story in many ways. You kind of have to go with it - it's a hell of an awkward fit, and the film is undeniably a mess, but it works. For me anyway. If Jackson had tried to alter the Goblintown sequence to fit more with the sense of danger in his LOTR films, then the sequence would have really just been a copy of Moria.

post #678 of 963

As far as I'm concerned, whether you found it ho-hum or great either is fine as long as you're taking it all in context.

 

The goblin attack sequence never came close to the one in Moria for one reason more than any: they didn't want it to. It lacks weight because it was designed that way. This is a sillier, more whimsical tale and the encounters are being designed to follow suit, including our heroes' abilities to survive ridiculous encounters. Were you as equally upset that Gandalf's rescue from the trolls or the goblins didn't carry the same "oompf" when he showed up at Helm's Deep? Or that the eagle rescue didn't feel quite as desperate as his escape from Orthanc? Just curious, though I doubt it, which makes for a bit of a contradiction.

post #679 of 963

I don't think Jackson has done himself any favours in this regard by doing The Hobbit after making LOTR, because having made the trilogy he now feels the need to make The Hobbit movies 'fit' with the previous ones, while ignoring the fact that the tone of the two narratives is quite different. Also, after Kong, there is a definite feeling that Jackson is in love with overextending material and pushing the boundaries of what is a believable CG action sequence into the realms of outright audience disconnect - and The Hobbit plays into both of those criticisms. I hope the next one really knocks it out of the park, as I admire Jackson hugely, if nothing more than for the passion he obviously has for the material.

post #680 of 963

It's been many years since I read the Hobbit, and never read any of the supplemental material.

i'm assuming some of the dwarfs don't survive the story.

In hidden text (so nobody else is needlessly cheated)

can someone please tell me who survives and who doesn't ?

post #681 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post

As far as I'm concerned, whether you found it ho-hum or great either is fine as long as you're taking it all in context.

 

The goblin attack sequence never came close to the one in Moria for one reason more than any: they didn't want it to. It lacks weight because it was designed that way. This is a sillier, more whimsical tale and the encounters are being designed to follow suit, including our heroes' abilities to survive ridiculous encounters. Were you as equally upset that Gandalf's rescue from the trolls or the goblins didn't carry the same "oompf" when he showed up at Helm's Deep? Or that the eagle rescue didn't feel quite as desperate as his escape from Orthanc? Just curious, though I doubt it, which makes for a bit of a contradiction.

 

You're making it all about the Epic-ness of LOTR vs the frothiness of The Hobbit, which is not what I'm talking about at all.  It's about how this movie, only this movie, independent of any outside comparisons, sets up a scenario - the goblins will kill the dwarves if they catch them! - then immediately undermines it by showing that when even a large number of goblins overtakes them, the dwarves just shuffle right through all of them.  Then it's right back to Oh no! A similarly-sized group of goblins to the one we just slaughtered without a scratch is coming! 

 

It's not about what will happen if these guys fail vs what will happen if the fellowship fails.  It's that the movie establishes an idea of what will constitute failure in this context - the goblins catching up - and then when that happens they don't actually fail.  And there's no twist or anything as to why they don't, and the sequence just moves on (and on) as if the premise still stands. 

post #682 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehauk View Post

It's been many years since I read the Hobbit, and never read any of the supplemental material.

i'm assuming some of the dwarfs don't survive the story.

In hidden text (so nobody else is needlessly cheated)

can someone please tell me who survives and who doesn't ?

 

Survives:

 

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Ori

Dori
Sneezy
Grumpy
Balin
Rumour
Bombur
Gipper
Gloin
Oin
Doc

 

Dies:

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)

Bashful

Fili
Kili
The one with the braids
Fusilli
Crackle 
Pop
Blitzen
Bifur
Sleepy
Warwick
 

 

post #683 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by stevehauk View Post

It's been many years since I read the Hobbit, and never read any of the supplemental material.

i'm assuming some of the dwarfs don't survive the story.

In hidden text (so nobody else is needlessly cheated)

can someone please tell me who survives and who doesn't ?

 

I hope Emo Phillips dwarf lives.

post #684 of 963

I've got a ways to go in catching up with this thread...  6 pages in, lots of praise, lots of not-praise.  But for once I stayed away from most of the discussion before getting to dig in myself.  I was able to go see this in 3D HFR on New Year's Day and it was an absolutely wonderful to start the new year.  It was also the first time I got to see a movie in the theater since my son was born back in August, and if it's the only one I get to do for a while, then it's a great place to leave off.  The last movie I saw in theaters BEFORE the baby was the Abe Lincoln Vampire flick, so at least this time I'm a winner!

 

Anyway, I loved this.  I was sort of indifferent to it until it got closer and closer to being released and then my nerd itch started getting scratched.  And then posters started getting plastered all over the subway stations and my nerd itch became a glorious rash (does that make any sense?).  Then I knew I wanted to do what I could to try to get to see it.  And I'm glad I did.  Seeing this also reinforces for me how much I actually LOVE just going to the movies.  Watching stuff at home (or on a tablet as is most often the case for me now) is great, but it's just not the same.

 

It was a great experience, and the HFR was an interesting experiment to go see too.  I can't really complain too much about it.  There's a bit of an adjustment phase, but it was all clean and bright and the 3D worked very well.  The only negative were the occasional bits that did seemed to have been sped up a bit, but that was mostly early on for me.  I guess the test would be whether or not you have to adjust to it each time...  not that any of us is in that situation yet, but in the coming years, who knows?

 

It's not really a negative, but it is sort of a knock on the score in that none of the new music really stood out all that much.  I'm hoping that future passes with the movie (on Blu Ray no doubt) will give me more chance to focus on the music, but it's probably telling that the themes from LOTR that popped up stood out amongst all the others.  The music wasn't bad, it just wasn't as memorable.  But then again, the LOTR movies were a magical achievement in a class of their own.  Any aspect of anything that follows has VERY high standards to live up to.  but for me, for the most part, this did.

 

I'm really looking forward to seeing it again in due time.  And if Jackson wants to release an extended version down the line for each of the 3 Hobbit movies, then so be it.  I'll be there to check them out!

post #685 of 963
The goblins aren't chasing the dwarves, Schwartz. The dwarves are continuing their journey and the goblins are in the way.
post #686 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich Straceski View Post

It was a great experience, and the HFR was an interesting experiment to go see too.  I can't really complain too much about it.  There's a bit of an adjustment phase, but it was all clean and bright and the 3D worked very well.  The only negative were the occasional bits that did seemed to have been sped up a bit, but that was mostly early on for me.  I guess the test would be whether or not you have to adjust to it each time...  not that any of us is in that situation yet, but in the coming years, who knows?

 

Saw it for the second time today - friends wanted to see it - and can confirm that the sped-upness still took some adjusting to. It's definitley more noticeable in the begining, but I think that's partly because they're doing less fantastic stuff - writing, putting away dishes - in these opening scenes. Whenever I remembered to check for it, 75% of the time it was still there.

 

Fair do's to the movie, though: I didn't remember to check all that much.

 

Begining of the film really sticks out as the absolute worst, with Rivendell a close second. Wanting to include actors from the LOTR triology really was the wrong impulse.

 

I'm sure someone has brought this up before, but: Bilbo is writing his book for Frodo, right? So why does he start it by explaining what a hobbit is?

post #687 of 963

'Cause Frodo be Retarded.

post #688 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

'Cause Frodo be Retarded.

 

Well, they have never been counted among the very wise.

 

Plus they smoke a lot of weed, so...

post #689 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielRoffle View Post

 

I'm sure someone has brought this up before, but: Bilbo is writing his book for Frodo, right? So why does he start it by explaining what a hobbit is?

 

I think the general conceit, both in the books and the films, is that Bilbo is writing a chronicle of his adventures that eventually becomes The Hobbit, and he passes it on to Frodo who in turn writes what becomes LOTR - as if Tolkien's books aren't fiction but rather historical sagas by people who actually existed, in a different age of the world. Concerning Hobbits is the prologue of LOTR so that's why Jackson included it being written, I guess. Bilbo is writing it for the international market so to speak.

post #690 of 963

I have done a pretty hard 180 on this movie.  The stuff that annoyed me doesn't bother me nearly as much anymore. 

post #691 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

I have done a pretty hard 180 on this movie.  The stuff that annoyed me doesn't bother me nearly as much anymore. 

 

Fuck, no one ever says something like that on a message board. Well played.

post #692 of 963

I know right?!  A second viewing helped it a lot.  My memory of the Hobbit was hazy the first time...  Since then I've seen the Rankin Bass animation and re read the book.  Jackson has really taken the kids book and pretty much hit it out of the park.  SOOOO many of these elements could have gone so SOOOO bad and Jackson pulls it off effortlessly.  The only shame is the segmenting of the story, but I'm even getting over that. 

 

Rhadagast still sucks though.  Why does him using magic to ward off the necromancy in the critter scare off the spiders?  Why is he such an asshole?

post #693 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielRoffle View Post

I'm sure someone has brought this up before, but: Bilbo is writing his book for Frodo, right? So why does he start it by explaining what a hobbit is?

 

Ha, I thought that as well. It wouldn't be so bad if it didn't follow on directly from the "My dear Frodo" bit. As it is, it comes across a bit like writing to a friend about how your holiday went and starting it with "Human beings, being intelligent bipedal mammals with transport technology allowing them to move far beyond their usual dwellings, often like to refresh themselves by taking relaxing expeditions to picturesque locales".

 

I'll stick up for Rivendell though. Yeah it has more to do with the later Hobbit movies and the LOTRs than it does with this one, but it's not just empty fanwank. It reminds me a bit of the Two Towers Boromir/Faramir/Denathor flashback (the single stupidest cut from the theatrical versions if you ask me), in that you get to see these characters you know interact with each other in a way that makes it a bit clearer who they are. Even though it's mainly exposition the way the four of them play off each other tells you quite a bit about what they're about and what they think about each other.

post #694 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

I have done a pretty hard 180 on this movie.  The stuff that annoyed me doesn't bother me nearly as much anymore. 

 

Woooo! Next up: McNooj re-evaluates TDKR and comes to believe it's the most amazing thing his eyeballs have ever seen.

post #695 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

 

I guess the way it breaks down is like this: at any given point, they show 10-20 goblins chasing them around (there's only so much room on the screen, crowded as it already is).  We see a dozen goblins catch up to them early in the sequence, and they brush them aside without missing a beat.  So the next time (and the next, and the next) a dozen goblins block their path, big deal.  

 

This is all compounded by the whole sequence starting out on the wrong foot, with the heroes as completely overwhelmed and surrounded as they could possibly be, only to be freed by a wave of Gandalf's hand.  If getting away when they're surrounded by a hundred thousand goblins was that easy, getting away from the next hundred doesn't seem very daunting.

 

Anyway, I've belabored the point more than enough.  I'm probably just bitter that we didn't get more of Salacious Gob (loooved that little bit).

 

It's easy to get away from a hundred thousand goblins when a wizard casts a major stunning spell, though that again raises questions and issues about the very structure of The Hobbit, which I don't really want to get into (because we've gone over it so many times in this thread). Frankly, I think starting things off with the heroes already being overwhelmed works; the goal becomes "race to avoid being overwhelmed", and that gives the entire thing propulsion, because at every turn the dwarves' aim is to keep moving so that they can avoid being swarmed by a significant number of goblins as they were at the start of the sequence. 10-20 isn't really all that significant-- in the world of Middle Earth, goblins are the bottom of the bottom of the barrel in terms of being dangerous. It's when they start to pile up in triplicate and beyond that they become respectably life-threatening, I think. And apart from getting out of the mines, that's the company's goal.

 

Maybe I'm being a needling dick about this myself but I really don't want to justify the sequence just because of the tone Jackson's going for. (Though I do think that it fits the atmosphere of The Hobbit. I just think there's more to it than that.) At least we can agree that more Salacious Gob would have done everyone some good!

post #696 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by agracru View Post
 At least we can agree that more Salacious Gob would have done everyone some good!

 

He wasn't killed.  I'm holding out hope that he comes swooping into the Battle of Five Armies on like a fatass crow or something.

 

I don't think the tone of the sequence is off at all, or inappropriate.  It's just badly executed.  Show us more shots of the really big horde of goblins or give them some trolls or something to represent the real threat they have to stay ahead of (and give us a sense of how close they are).  I mean, intellectually I understand that 50 goblins are more dangerous than 20, but it's hard to convey that visually without it just becoming a soup.

post #697 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post

Woooo! Next up: McNooj re-evaluates TDKR and comes to believe it's the most amazing thing his eyeballs have ever seen.

This is not exactly the same thing, but after I watched it I did tea bag my blu-ray.
post #698 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

I know right?!  A second viewing helped it a lot.  My memory of the Hobbit was hazy the first time...  Since then I've seen the Rankin Bass animation and re read the book.  Jackson has really taken the kids book and pretty much hit it out of the park.  SOOOO many of these elements could have gone so SOOOO bad and Jackson pulls it off effortlessly.  The only shame is the segmenting of the story, but I'm even getting over that. 

 

Rhadagast still sucks though.  Why does him using magic to ward off the necromancy in the critter scare off the spiders?  Why is he such an asshole?

Rhadagast gets a free pass from me on the basis he is/was Dr Who.

 

However, your experience has prompted me to go back and give it another shot. I want to check out this 48fps malarky, but doubted I could sit through the film again. 

post #699 of 963
On second watch, my noggin did a pretty hard 90 degree kickback into slumberland!

Ohohohooho

I liked the movie.

TDKR? I'll do a full 360 degree turn on that one.
post #700 of 963
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanielRoffle View Post

 

I'm sure someone has brought this up before, but: Bilbo is writing his book for Frodo, right? So why does he start it by explaining what a hobbit is?

 

 

How many real-life writings intended for humans explained what it is to be a man, what it is to be a woman, or what it is to be a human being?

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