CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › Conspiracy Theory Thread
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Conspiracy Theory Thread - Page 2

post #51 of 280

To continue the murder analogy, in this case we would also have a confessed killer in Al Qaeda.  Now, confessions can be shockingly unreliable as evidence, but what is their motivation for going along with the government's story, in the Truther version?  Do they not exist?  Are they just so pleased with the attention that they'd rather use it than use America's slaughtering its own people as proof of it's Great Satan-ness?   I honestly do not understand these aspects.

post #52 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

 

 

I didn't accuse anyone, I'm questioning the accusations already made. Our government said it was Osama Bin Laden without any proof to show for it, there is reasonable doubt that Bin Laden did it. That's why what I'm saying works, because I'm not a party to this idea that there's only one good answer besides terrorists which is our own government. 

 

Given that Osama Bin Laden claimed responsibility, I'd say a taped confession is pretty credible evidence in most trials. 

post #53 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

To continue the murder analogy, in this case we would also have a confessed killer in Al Qaeda.  Now, confessions can be shockingly unreliable as evidence, but what is their motivation for going along with the government's story, in the Truther version?  Do they not exist?  Are they just so pleased with the attention that they'd rather use it than use America's slaughtering its own people as proof of it's Great Satan-ness?   I honestly do not understand these aspects.

 

I don't feel like questioning certain aspects means you need to have a firm grasp of everything that happened, how and why. When I say building 7 collapsing seems odd I don't mean much beyond that. I'd love to know how it can be explained that a building of that size would just come straight down like that due to some furniture being on fire. 

post #54 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post
 

 

Given that Osama Bin Laden claimed responsibility, I'd say a taped confession is pretty credible evidence.

 

I wouldn't discount it as evidence, obviously. I really don't want to be turned down the path where I start saying ever more ridiculous things, no matter what other evidence there is building 7 going down was weird, that's my perspective on it, I really don't want to get into this other stuff because it gets way messier. 

post #55 of 280

What are the "good answers" to 9/11 besides terrorists or the government?  Aliens?  Freemasons?  Brazilians?  Mole People?  Skynet?

post #56 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

I don't feel like questioning certain aspects means you need to have a firm grasp of everything that happened, how and why. When I say building 7 collapsing seems odd I don't mean much beyond that. I'd love to know how it can be explained that a building of that size would just come straight down like that due to some furniture being on fire. 

 

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

 

and from among their sources:

 

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

 

It probably starts with your half-formed belief that the official explanation was nothing more than "furniture fires" being incomplete and utterly lacking in context.

 

Then again, this should likely not be surprising given that your initial sentence gives you carte-blanche to cherry-pick any particular thing and completely ignore context altogether.  And you wonder why people find your positions unreasonable and/or ill-informed?  The explanation for "a building of that size coming straight down like that" [i]requires[/i] the examination of all the factors that contributed. 

 

No wonder you have a hard time with this given that your stated thought process seems to be antithetical to any examination deeper than "gut feeling."

post #57 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

What are the "good answers" to 9/11 besides terrorists or the government?  Aliens?  Freemasons?  Brazilians?  Mole People?  Skynet?

 

I like to go with all of the above, a sort of Legion of Doom, if you will.

post #58 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post
 

 

http://www.debunking911.com/pull.htm

 

and from among their sources:

 

http://www.structuremag.org/Archives/2007-11/SF-WTC7-Gilsanz-Nov07.pdf

 

It probably starts with your half-formed belief that the official explanation was nothing more than "furniture fires" being incomplete and utterly lacking in context.

 

Then again, this should likely not be surprising given that your initial sentence gives you carte-blanche to cherry-pick any particular thing and completely ignore context altogether.  And you wonder why people find your positions unreasonable and/or ill-informed?  The explanation for "a building of that size coming straight down like that" [i]requires[/i] the examination of all the factors that contributed. 

 

No wonder you have a hard time with this given that your stated thought process seems to be antithetical to any examination deeper than "gut feeling."

 

Sorry but the second I saw it say "how the loss of one column collapsed a whole building" I tuned out. I wouldn't be able to believe that shit in a movie, nevermind reality.

post #59 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

Sorry but the second I saw it say "how the loss of one column collapsed a whole building" I tuned out. I wouldn't be able to believe that shit in a movie, nevermind reality.

 

And this is just further reinforcement that you have no actual interest in facts or information, as opposed to your "gut feelings."

 

Given that the second article linked is written by actual structural engineers that presumably know what they're talking about....but hey, who needs to listen to silly "experts" and all that when I've got FEELS?!?

post #60 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post
 

 

And this is just further reinforcement that you have no actual interest in facts or information, as opposed to your "gut feelings."

 

Given that the second article linked is written by actual structural engineers that presumably know what they're talking about....but hey, who needs to listen to silly "experts" and all that when I've got FEELS?!?

 

Plenty of structural engineers and experts also say it couldn't have happened that way. Over 2,000 people in the field are a part of the rethink 9/11 campaign, can you really say for sure all 2,000 are people who are somehow periphery members of their field or not expert enough?

post #61 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

Plenty of structural engineers and experts also say it couldn't have happened that way. Over 2,000 people in the field are a part of the rethink 9/11 campaign, can you really say for sure all 2,000 are people who are somehow periphery members of their field or not expert enough?

 

Sorry, the moment I saw "rethink 9/11" I tuned out.  

 

We appear to be at an en passe.

post #62 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

 

Sorry, the moment I saw "rethink 9/11" I tuned out.  

 

We appear to be at an en passe.

 

Probably an impasse, too. I'm sure you aren't someone who does much rethinking of anything and before you claim the same of me I'll have you know I was in no way a person who questioned this shit even 2 years ago, I believed the official story for 11 years until the first time I ever even heard WTC 7 existed, the fact that I hadn't even heard of the damn thing alone sparked my interest and I still want answers beyond a single column causing a building of that size to collapse inward like a controlled demolition. 

post #63 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

Plenty of structural engineers and experts also say it couldn't have happened that way. Over 2,000 people in the field are a part of the rethink 9/11 campaign, can you really say for sure all 2,000 are people who are somehow periphery members of their field or not expert enough?

 

Most of them aren't "in the field" at all.

post #64 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

Plenty of structural engineers and experts also say it couldn't have happened that way. Over 2,000 people in the field are a part of the rethink 9/11 campaign, can you really say for sure all 2,000 are people who are somehow periphery members of their field or not expert enough?

 

Yes, actually, I can, given that 2000 out of the hundreds of thousands of engineers in the country is in fact very much a "periphery" (particularly when the rest of that population apparently agrees with the official explanation or does not disagree with it enough to publicly contradict it).

 

That, and a little digging shows that most of the "Engineers" that support the 9/11 conspiracy theories are not, in fact structural or civil engineers, and many of them aren't "in the field" at all.

post #65 of 280
Thread Starter 

If even 10 of the 2,000 were experts in the field wouldn't you want to know why they're putting their reputation on the line to say what they're saying?

post #66 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

Probably an impasse, too. I'm sure you aren't someone who does much rethinking of anything and before you claim the same of me I'll have you know I was in no way a person who questioned this shit even 2 years ago, I believed the official story for 11 years until the first time I ever even heard WTC 7 existed, the fact that I hadn't even heard of the damn thing alone sparked my interest and I still want answers beyond a single column causing a building of that size to collapse inward like a controlled demolition. 

 

And here you continue to evidence being deliberately obtuse.  You were given the opportunity to read a detailed explanation, but refused simply because "I refuse to believe it!"

 

You want to think of yourself as a bastion of critical thinking with your willingness to question, but in your efforts to do so you've looped all the way around to flat-out anti-intellectualism because you're too afraid of looking at some facts that may prove that some of the conclusions you've drawn to the questions you've asked were incorrect.

post #67 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post
 

 

And here you continue to evidence being deliberately obtuse.  You were given the opportunity to read a detailed explanation, but refused simply because "I refuse to believe it!"

 

You want to think of yourself as a bastion of critical thinking with your willingness to question, but in your efforts to do so you've looped all the way around to flat-out anti-intellectualism because you're too afraid of looking at some facts that may prove that some of the conclusions you've drawn to the questions you've asked were incorrect.

 

I didn't say I was a bastion of anything. It's not that I'm afraid that what you linked me proves everything fits into the official narrative, I'd prefer that outcome, it's that I have trouble believing one column could collapse a building of that size, especially the way it collapsed. 

post #68 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

Probably an impasse, too. I'm sure you aren't someone who does much rethinking of anything and before you claim the same of me I'll have you know I was in no way a person who questioned this shit even 2 years ago, I believed the official story for 11 years until the first time I ever even heard WTC 7 existed, the fact that I hadn't even heard of the damn thing alone sparked my interest and I still want answers beyond a single column causing a building of that size to collapse inward like a controlled demolition. 

 

I was trying to demonstrate how silly it is to request support for an assertion, receive it, and immediately disregard it because the title indicated it disagreed with your preconceived notions.  Evidently I failed.

post #69 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

I didn't say I was a bastion of anything. It's not that I'm afraid that what you linked me proves everything fits into the official narrative, I'd prefer that outcome, it's that I have trouble believing one column could collapse a building of that size, especially the way it collapsed. 

 

Read 102 MINUTES.

post #70 of 280
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

 

I was trying to demonstrate how silly it is to request support for an assertion, receive it, and immediately disregard it because the title indicated it disagreed with your preconceived notions.  Evidently I failed.

 

I know what you were doing. I may even read those links some time more thoroughly, but my gut reaction is that it's bogus. Here's the thing, assume it is a government conspiracy, you really think it'd be hard for the government to get some "experts" in the field to write papers saying everything happened how they said? There's a lot more to be gained by being an ally to such a government than going against it. 

post #71 of 280

102 Minutes is fine and all, but I am going to need to consult the findings of at least 3000 recognized experts in the field before I formulate any opinion on the importance of support columns to making buildings not fall down.

post #72 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

If even 10 of the 2,000 were experts in the field wouldn't you want to know why they're putting their reputation on the line to say what they're saying?

Not really.  Being gullible doesn't preclude you from getting an Engineering degree or working in the field.  Nor does being someone naturally inclined towards believing conspiracy theories.  Nor do we dismiss the possibility that it's easier to gain fame by going against the grain than it is to go with the accepted explanations.  In point of fact, if all 2000 were experts in the field, it would still boil down to less than 2 percent of the overall population, which can easily be dismissed as statistical outliers (IE "the lunatic fringe.")

 

But by all means, give us the name of someone associated with the "rethink" movement that you believe represents an expert in the field.  Preferably someone who has firsthand experience examining the WTC wreckage, or at the very least has worked on buildings very similar to WTC 7.  Surely if this individual or individuals is considered an expert within the field (carrying with it the peer-respect such a distinction would entail) they would be at the very forefront of this bold effort to uncover the truth.

post #73 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

If even 10 of the 2,000 were experts in the field wouldn't you want to know why they're putting their reputation on the line to say what they're saying?

Are you kidding?  You can find highly qualified outliers and fringe theorists in any field at all.  It would be weirder to find none.

 

Anyway, the earlier skeptisism points out the problem nicely:  Most of the trouble with WTC kookiness is we all think we intuitively know how this stuff looks, works or should work because Movies.

post #74 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

I know what you were doing. I may even read those links some time more thoroughly, but my gut reaction is that it's bogus. Here's the thing, assume it is a government conspiracy, you really think it'd be hard for the government to get some "experts" in the field to write papers saying everything happened how they said? There's a lot more to be gained by being an ally to such a government than going against it. 

 

Congratulations, you loop right back around to the "can't pass the common sense test" segment of why the conspiracy theories don't work.  With an added splash of "uber competent government that can do anything it wants and totally get away with it but only uses that power to degrade and weaken the very nation it's already in de-facto absolute control of for....some unfathomable reason."

 

"Assume it is a government conspiracy" and of course you can come up with any rationale you want. Now riddle me this:  How is "the government" keeping the other hundreds of thousands of structural and civil engineers from speaking out on the matter?  If the "single point of failure" explanation is such an egregious violation of good sense, logic, and physics, you would think more of the learned population that specializes in such things would take issue with it rather than a tiny, tiny minority.


Edited by Jmacq1 - 9/13/13 at 8:38am
post #75 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

I know what you were doing. I may even read those links some time more thoroughly, but my gut reaction is that it's bogus. Here's the thing, assume it is a government conspiracy, you really think it'd be hard for the government to get some "experts" in the field to write papers saying everything happened how they said? There's a lot more to be gained by being an ally to such a government than going against it. 

 

My gut feeling is that when buildings that were not designed to have jetliners fly directly into them are subjected to that, or the flaming debris from the collapse of truly massive nearby structures, they have trouble staying up.  Something tells me you do not find that persuasive.

 

Yes, I think conspiracies are hard to pull off.  That's why most of them don't get off the ground; it's not that people or governments are too scrupulous to consider them.

post #76 of 280
Thread Starter 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/77014664/Documents%20for%20Congressional%20Visits%20-%20Sept%202013/AE911%20Petition%20-%20full%20doc%20%5B2000%5D.pdf

 

That's the full list currently. Keep in mind all they want is a new independent investigation. Why does that threaten people?

post #77 of 280

People who give Truthers any attention at all aren't much better than Truthers themselves.

post #78 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post
 

 

Congratulations, you loop right back around to the "can't pass the common sense test" segment of why the conspiracy theories don't work.  With an added splash of "uber competent government that can do anything it wants and totally get away with it but only uses that power to degrade and weaken the very nation it's already in de-facto absolute control of for....some unfathomable reason."

 

"Assume it is a government conspiracy" and of course you can come up with any rationale you want. Now riddle me this:  How is "the government" keeping the other hundreds of thousands of structural and civil engineers from speaking out on the matter?

 

Also Al Qaeda.  I really do want to know how the patsies figure in to the conspiracy paradigm. 

post #79 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/77014664/Documents%20for%20Congressional%20Visits%20-%20Sept%202013/AE911%20Petition%20-%20full%20doc%20%5B2000%5D.pdf

 

That's the full list currently. Keep in mind all they want is a new independent investigation. Why does that threaten people?

 

I think you mistake the reaction of "waste of time" with "threatened."

 

By your own implications, no successful "independent" investigation can ever be achieved, because the big bad government will just convince the investigators that its' in their best interests to side with them and they'll totally go along with it to the last man.  Because the government's just that powerful and scary and competent.  So either way you slice it, it'd be a waste of taxpayer money.

 

After all, it's not like you can just get the signatories of the petition to do the investigation, because they have a vested interest in denying any evidence or conclusions that do NOT support their belief that the government blew up WTC7 (or maybe all three towers).  Nevermind that once again, about 3/4s of them aren't really in the architecture or structural/civil engineering fields.

post #80 of 280
As a Brazilian, I am HIGHLY offended by the implication that we would be part of a Legion of Doom. We are way too sexy a people to be evil.
post #81 of 280

While not directly related to the topic at hand, this cartoon would seem to apply to those individuals who lean toward the absurd.

 

post #82 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by andrevellozo View Post

As a Brazilian, I am HIGHLY offended by the implication that we would be part of a Legion of Doom. We are way too sexy a people to be evil.

 

That's just what you want us to THINK!

 

Because as we all know, Evil is Sexy.

post #83 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

The Federal Reserve is awful, no doubt about that. 

 

I've gotta hear the reasoning behind this....

 

C'mon GvR...to paraphrase a famous character, "enthrall us with your acumen"

post #84 of 280

My secret theory is that GvR is actually Andy Kaufman. While we're at it, I think he got Yoko and Lennon together, caused Buddy Holly's plane to crash, killed Cobain, and... what the hell a couple of corn dogs.

post #85 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by J. Ryan View Post
 

My secret theory is that GvR is actually Andy Kaufman. While we're at it, I think he got Yoko and Lennon together, caused Buddy Holly's plane to crash, killed Cobain, and... what the hell a couple of corn dogs.

 

 

I bet he rooms with Tupac Shakur.

post #86 of 280
I'm sure you are all aware that the recent rise in peanut allergies are an elaborate right wing revenge against Jimmy Carter.
post #87 of 280
This one might bring us together: Roswell. Thoughts?
post #88 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

This one might bring us together: Roswell. Thoughts?

 

I preferred X-Files.  : )

 

 

seriously, it was just a weather balloon......

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
of course, it was a alien weather balloon
post #89 of 280

I had hoped this thread would be about our favorite wacky conspiracy theories such as "The Denver International Airport was built by the Free Masons / Illuminati to protect the uber rich from an approaching extinction level event!"  Those theories are more fun to bullshit about than "the World Trade Center fell funny!"

post #90 of 280

double

post #91 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

This one might bring us together: Roswell. Thoughts?
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post

I preferred X-Files. : )


seriously, it was just a weather balloon...... Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
of course, it was a alien weather balloon

It was probably a high altitude surveillance balloon, photographing Russian nuclear tests. That, at least, might be worth enduring decades of slander to keep covered up.

So is the R&D of prototype stealth and long range reconnaissance aircraft at Groom Lake, for that matter. I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall at MUFON when the existence of Area 51 was finally declassified. For decades, the competition for book sales and convention speaking arrangements has been so fierce that some of those guys will accuse one another of being CIA disinformation agents if their Cookie Crisp gets soggy too soon after the milk is poured; the morning it became inescapably obvious that they had all been bullshitting for years must have been the kind of thing that Christmas specials are made out of.
post #92 of 280

The Denver airport one is probably my favorite. With underground hypertrains!! It gets bonus points for the Denver murals being genuinely, supremely What-The-Fuck worthy.
 

post #93 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

This one might bring us together: Roswell. Thoughts?

Taa-daaa

post #94 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamera vs Rodan View Post
 

 

I know what you were doing. I may even read those links some time more thoroughly, but my gut reaction is that it's bogus. Here's the thing, assume it is a government conspiracy, you really think it'd be hard for the government to get some "experts" in the field to write papers saying everything happened how they said? There's a lot more to be gained by being an ally to such a government than going against it. 

 

Experienced Civil Engineers who've built Skyscrapers, Demolition experts who've destroyed same, Vs. your "Gut" reaction?

Do you know how fucking ignorant you sound?

post #95 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by DamnDirtyApe View Post
 

I had hoped this thread would be about our favorite wacky conspiracy theories such as "The Denver International Airport was built by the Free Masons / Illuminati to protect the uber rich from an approaching extinction level event!"  Those theories are more fun to bullshit about than "the World Trade Center fell funny!"

 

 

I'm convinced the war in Syria is actually a front for a hegemonic battle between USA/Russia over the ruins of Gobekli Tepe.  Think Wargames meets Indiana jones.

post #96 of 280

If there was ever any proof that 9/11 wasn't a secret government conspiracy, aside from the mountains of factual evidence proving that it wasn't, it's the fact that the US government can't keep its information gathering programs classified.

 

You're meaning to tell me that the US government can pull of 9/11 with no leaks for 12 years but it can't keep secret the fact that its actively spying on our electronic communications?  That's laughable.  You really think some college dropout punk can beat a government that can manage such an efficient operation?

post #97 of 280

Snowden has the files man! He has the files!  They were next.  The Russians have them now.  But too late he discovers they were in on it too!  (I'll have to think that one through later)

 

I'm quite partial to Chemtrails myself.  It's just such a weird idea  (they're dropping nanochip tracking devices now apparently).

I can see how if you lived in Arizona or somewhere that a plane leaving  a contrail might be a pretty weird thing and if you're of a certain disposition you might think something was up.  But no one in England, say, could come up with this idea.  Every single day the sky is criss-crossed with the things in their thousands and they stay there all day some times.

But as soon as some secret history theory gets established well enough in the world these ideas start to migrate, despite making no sense.

post #98 of 280
All right, Oklahoma City... go!
post #99 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

All right, Oklahoma City... go!

 

Yes, go with great haste, and don't stop til you hit mountains, water, or Mexico.  That's my advice.

post #100 of 280
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
 

Snowden has the files man! He has the files!  They were next.  The Russians have them now.  But too late he discovers they were in on it too!  (I'll have to think that one through later)

 

I'm quite partial to Chemtrails myself.  It's just such a weird idea  (they're dropping nanochip tracking devices now apparently).

I can see how if you lived in Arizona or somewhere that a plane leaving  a contrail might be a pretty weird thing and if you're of a certain disposition you might think something was up.  But no one in England, say, could come up with this idea.  Every single day the sky is criss-crossed with the things in their thousands and they stay there all day some times.

But as soon as some secret history theory gets established well enough in the world these ideas start to migrate, despite making no sense.

 

People who move to Arizona, or any place that's the desert, to live there permanently are already predisposed to being nuts.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Political Discourse
CHUD.com Community › Forums › POLITICS & RELIGION › Political Discourse › Conspiracy Theory Thread