Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › The Franchises › Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussion

post #1 of 3735
Thread Starter 

It appears that the most common place to discuss the Marvel Cinematic Universe is the post release thread for the most recent film. I'm not going to be anal retentive forum guy, but if people want to keep discussion of how the films meld together, with Agents of SHIELD and the Netflix series, this thread is here if you want it. As hard as the detractors may find it to believe, it is possible to talk about the merits of the individual films without talking about the crossover aspects.


To kick things off, I have codified the "rankings" that erupted in the Thor: The Dark World post release because Schwartz was careless. Rankings to follow after I make them pretty.


ETA: Edited to make it less anal retentive forum guyish

Edited by MikeI - 11/15/13 at 6:05pm
post #2 of 3735
MikeI, You're right the...Schwartz was not with him. I think this thread is a...Marvelous Idea. It is only 5 Months til Captain America...Throws his mighty Shield.
post #3 of 3735
Thread Starter 

Click to embiggen


Interesting things:


Three different movies, Iron Man, Iron Man 3, and Thor 2, are someone's favorite and someone else's least favorite


No two people have the same ranking


Avengers is the clear favorite with no one ranking it lower than 5th, and a solid place and change above Iron Man.


There appears to be some solid space between the top 2 and the middle of the pack. Cap, Thor, Thor 2, Iron Man 3 are separated by less than 3/4 of a point


Incredible Hulk and Iron Man 2 are neck and neck in terms of forgettableness.


ETA: That list is sorted based on the current ranks. D.T. is closest to the CHUD Consensus.

post #4 of 3735

Now THIS is something cool to do with all your precious... listssssssssss.

post #5 of 3735
I endorse charts like this!
post #6 of 3735
Wow. I am impressed. I will say, as I said in the other thread, Thor 2 could wind up moving up in my ranks. I was afraid to put it higher because I wanted to give it some time to sink in. I didn't want to get caught up in the I just saw it and it was awesome thing, and wind up ranking it higher than I would a year from now, if that makes sense.

Sent from my Nexus 7 using Tapatalk
post #7 of 3735

Mike that's fucking brilliant!

post #8 of 3735

Well done dude. Other interesting thing is that, given the way people were talking it up earlier in the year I could have sworn that Iron Man 3 would end up higher than 6th place.

post #9 of 3735
Thread Starter 
I agree about Iron Man 3. 3-6 are really close.

Needless to say, this whole experiment is terribly unscientific as some people think the top 4 are excellent and the bottom 2 middling, while some think the top are ok and the bottom are crimes against humanity. There's no weighting.
Edited by MikeI - 11/16/13 at 6:11am
post #10 of 3735

What's the Netflix series?  I think I missed something!  Is it on-going?  HALP!


Oh, and very cool idea Mike!

post #11 of 3735
Originally Posted by Teitr Styrr View Post

What's the Netflix series?  I think I missed something!  


You did.

post #12 of 3735
I'm a little late to the party, but here's my rankings (that no one asked for!):

1- The Avengers
2- Iron Man
3- Iron Man 3
4- Thor
5- Captain America
6- Thor: The Dark World
7- Iron Man 2
8- The Incredible Hulk

I must confess that I was a bit drowsy while watching "Thor: The Dark World", so it may move up or down after I give it a second viewing. "Captain America" has moved up my rankings, after initially being my least favorite. It still has an incredibly weak second half, and I won't ever really forgive it for wasting the Red Skull (still hoping he makes a comeback).
post #13 of 3735

Thank you sir!  Whew, I need to pay better attention.


ETA:  To the sexy MrSaxon, of course.

post #14 of 3735
Ah! I intended to make a more refined and detailed list of my rankings and I see someone included my spur-of-the-moment rankings in the chart! But, I'll likely watch all the films in a marathon first before I ever do that, probably in April in time for THE WINTER SOLDIER. So what I'll do is just list the films in chronological order and add comments for each. I'll be getting into some spoilers here concerning THOR: THE DARK WORLD.

IRON MAN - It's enjoyable, I had fun seeing it in theaters, but it doesn't really stick with me. RDJ is obviously the appeal of this film, but other than that... What else? I just feel it's overrated. Too cookie cutter and Jeff Bridges seems wasted in what is a pretty lame villain.

THE INCREDIBLE HULK - Saw this one in theaters too and I remember actually thinking it was better than IRON MAN. Revisiting it only once last year, I enjoyed it as much. My comment for it in 2008 was that it was a very solid entry. I liked it as a chase film, reintroducing this Hulk for the then brand new MCU that was only just kick-started a month or two earlier. I'm still upset Norton did not return, because I found him the most compelling and I like that he's not built as a linebacker as Bana and Ruffalo. Where I call IRON MAN overrated, I call this underrated.

IRON MAN 2 - This is a pretty messy film, but it's kind of an enjoyable mess and I find the story elements in her far more engaging than what was in the first film. Apparently there was some issues between the filmmakers and the studio on what the film was supposed to do. The filmmakers wanted to do their own thing while Marvel wanted to include stuff that would build up for THE AVENGERS, so sometimes it feels less like its own film and more like an AVENGERS set-up, which is why many probably rank it. Despite those issue, I enjoyed most of it. Sam Rockwell is one of the best additions and I really hope to see him pop up sooner in this universe.

THOR - This one took me by surprise. Seeing the trailer in theaters, I thought it looked like a turkey. I kept thinking "come on, no one is gonna buy into this shit, Marvel, why are you even trying?" Months after it was released, I decided to attend a free screening at my college. I enjoyed it in a way I did not expect to. It was incredibly goofy, but it felt earnest and most of all it was a lot of fun. You can tell that by seeing how much the actors are playing it up but not too much so that the story could work. It's like THE LION IN WINTER done as a summer blockbuster, but in a good way.

CAPTAIN AMERICA: THE FIRST AVENGER - This one definitely tickled my fancy. As a long time lover of THE ROCKETEER, it was nice to see Johnston jump back as a director of a period superhero film. He was a very good fit for something like CAPTAIN AMERICA where the good guy is simply the good guy from the start, no contemplating on whether he should be a hero or not, he just is. It's in bones. I know "character acrs" make it more interesting for many and that this was thought to be boring because never goes through what Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne, or Tony Stark did, but once in awhile I like having a hero that's simply inspiring. The first comic book cover with him is punching Hitler, so right from there you know it's all fantasy wish fulfillment and I think this movie captures it.

THE AVENGERS - Hard to comment on this one at the moment. It's great to see the heroes together and everything, but it really is just one big spectacle that does its job right but doesn't stay with you very much. However, unlike IRON MAN, I think it pulls off the spectacle much better and then of course there's Loki, who just works. Can't make further comments, I'll have to watch it again later though.

IRON MAN 3 - This is an odd one for me. When I first saw it I loved it and thought it was probably the best of all the films. Then I saw it again on DVD, and again later but it started to drop for me. There's parts I really like in it. The Mandarin reveal is very funny and the free-fall rescue is very well executed. Other than that, I'm not too crazy about the rest of the film. Crazy, because I was looking so forward to this ever since I heard that Shane Black was directing and writing it. That automatically meant that it would be my favorite of the Marvel films, but that's not the case. I dunno, I guess I'll need to see how it pans out again next time when I do a full on marathon.

THOR: THE DARK WORLD - Found it to be an improvement from the first, which I did not expect. The villain is a non-entity, and the romance doesn't seem to go beyond "hey, you're hot, I love you", but there's a lot in this film that makes up for it. Loki being one of them. I was surprised when his "death" happened because not only was it ballsy, it could have been a very effective way of writing him off. At the same time however, he's Loki! It's like killing Spock, you may have it work, but at the same time can you really keep moving without missing his presence? Anyway, of course it was all smokescreen so at the end we see Loki at the throne and that immediately intrigues me enough to want to see the next installment.

EDIT: Additional comment

AGENTS OF S.H.I.E.L.D. - So far this has been kind of a disappointment for me. Other than Coulson, I really don't give a fucking shit about the 90210 cast. It annoys me that the show focuses more on that hacker, because she's uninteresting while Clark Gregg is kind of wasted in what could have been a potentially new take on Coulson since he's supposed to be the show's lead, even though he really isn't.
post #15 of 3735

Nice job with the chart, Mike.  Makes an interesting summary of a complex universe.

post #16 of 3735
Having just watched IRON MAN 2 tonight, I think that pretty much seals the deal for me as being my favorite of the three Iron Man films. People say its unfocused, I say it just has a lot more going on to find and come back to. It rewards rewatching. If I had to rank them right now, I'd probably go with 2, 1, 3. Absolutely.

post #17 of 3735
Thor 2 was horrible , iron man is great cause it's your first look at the suit and tech that goes along with it, three was a one trick pony , in n out of the suit the hole movie........
post #18 of 3735

My current Marvel list, in order of Film I Enjoyed The Most - Film I Enjoyed The Least;


1. Captain America: The Winter Soldier

2. The Avengers

3. Thor: The Dark World

4. Captain America: The First Avenger

5. Iron Man 3

6. Iron Man

7. Thor

8. The Incredible Hulk

9. Iron Man 2

post #19 of 3735
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

Having just watched IRON MAN 2 tonight, I think that pretty much seals the deal for me as being my favorite of the three Iron Man films. People say its unfocused, I say it just has a lot more going on to find and come back to. It rewards rewatching. If I had to rank them right now, I'd probably go with 2, 1, 3. Absolutely.

Not my favorite of the Iron Man films or of the Marvel universe. However for all of it's problems I do think it works pretty well, especially after a couple viewings. Micky Rourke is solid and Don Cheadle actually has something to do. Actually to me that is the biggest misstep of the movie. Less time on Tony looking for some element that his father knew about for some reason even though I doubt he could have predicted Tony needing it for such a thing....and more on the friendship between Tony and Rhodey would have been nice. 

post #20 of 3735

IRON MAN 2 is a complete chore.  I'm at a point where I can't even sit through it.


Anyway, my list for future chart purposes:





4. IRON MAN 3 (B+)

5. IRON MAN (B+)

6. THOR (B-)



9. IRON MAN 2 (D)

post #21 of 3735

It should be interesting to see what happens to the chart after Winter Soldier releases here in the US. Anyway, my list is:


1. Avengers

2. Iron Man

3. Thor/Captain America/Iron Man 3 (too close to call for me)

4. Incredible Hulk

5. Iron Man 2/Thor: The Dark World (ditto)

6. Agents of SHIELD

post #22 of 3735
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

 I know "character acrs" make it more interesting for many and that this was thought to be boring because never goes through what Peter Parker, Bruce Wayne, or Tony Stark did, but once in awhile I like having a hero that's simply inspiring. The first comic book cover with him is punching Hitler, so right from there you know it's all fantasy wish fulfillment and I think this movie captures it.


There is nothing wrong with the protagonist not going through an arc/change.  What matters in those cases is that a character has convictions and has to fight/suffer for those convictions in a way that get the world around him to change.  That is an arc that can be just as interesting.

post #23 of 3735
And that's why in some alternate universe, the same one where Milius directed King Conan and Verhoeven directed Crusade, Whedon had the X-Men films instead of the status quo Avengers.
post #24 of 3735
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post


There is nothing wrong with the protagonist not going through an arc/change.  What matters in those cases is that a character has convictions and has to fight/suffer for those convictions in a way that get the world around him to change.  That is an arc that can be just as interesting.

One half of Steve's story is maintaining his integrity in the face of temptation (from the Senator's promises of fame, lustful women, the Red Skull's power) and not changing, but the other half is learning "how to talk to women" when it comes to his relationship with Peggy. This is the film's parallel throughline, his maturing when it comes to the ways of romance. Perhaps it's not as flashy as some other superhero stories, but it's there, and part of why I love the film.


My ranking? Since you care soooooo much:


1. The Avengers

2. Captain America: The First Avenger

3. The Incredible Hulk (sue me, I grew up loving Peter David's work on the character, and I'm actually really enamored by Tim Roth's desperate impotence as Blonsky, so much that I root for HIM all the way up to him becoming the Abomination)

4. Iron Man (there's a real tapping into sleaze with this film that simultaneously makes it feel more "adult" without being grim & gritty)

5. Iron Man 3 (as I talked about in the post-release thread, there's a punk rock sense of subversion running through this picture when it comes to gender roles, The Other, and narrative linearity)

6. Iron Man 2 (really solid first act gets derailed by non-sensical, inconsequential second act)

7. Thor 2 (portal stuff is a lot of fun)

8. Thor (sorry, just don't care about the character as protagonist, he's much better contrasting against Earth's Mightiest Heroes and I don't buy his relationship with Portman for a second)


It's actually really fascinating to go back and watch Iron Man and its sequel now. The first is before Marvel really knew they could pull off the whole Phase One thing, so they treat it as pretty insular. There's some fan service with S.H.I.E.L.D. but no more so than, say, Amanda Waller showing up in Green Lantern. The Incredible Hulk has, comparatively, been criticized of not maintaining a consistent tone with the other Marvel films but those were early days when it wasn't clear that the whole shared universe would work out. Consequently Iron Man 2 and Thor really suffer from the rush to hammer together something building up to the later films, with Black Widow and Hawkeye not feeling organic at all. The First Avenger, however, somehow manages to be riddled with set up and franchise glue (Howard Stark, SSR as the predecessor to S.H.I.E.L.D., Bucky being all brooding and holding Cap's shield briefly, the Tesseract's connection to Asgard, the jump to the present day) and yet makes it apart of the text and, more importantly, fun. 

post #25 of 3735

Anyone hear the rumor about Michael C. Hall playing Daredevil? Damn, that's actually really good casting. Like, hard for me to think of an improvement casting. He's a bit old for an origin story, but DD's origin is no great shakes--he really gets interesting once it's been a few years, his girlfriend's come back as an assassin, he's in a war of attrition with the Kingpin, and Karen Page is doing porn. The Daredevil movie actually had a good idea (if ripped off from Batman '89) of ol' Hornhead having operated for years in the shadows as an urban legend, the execution was just... Affleckicious. O


But anyway, a few other options, keeping in mind that it's for Netflix, so we're thinking TV stars or film stars who are in a position to slum. I actually think Jensen Ackles could be a good choice; Matt Murdock fits into his wheelhouse of comedy and angst, but the character is different enough from Dean Winchester to not make the show Supernatural With Superheroes.


Chris Pine, maybe? I haven't really seen him do a lot of heavy lifting, acting wise, but clearly the guy's phone isn't ringing for This Means War 2, so why not? I'd definitely buy his Matt Murdock as getting around as much as the comic book Matt Murdock, whose tragic heterosexuality is the only thing that has kept him from literally fucking every single person in the Marvel Universe.


But my number one draft pick would be Aaron Paul. He's young enough for the origin story, he tried the movie star thing with Need For Speed but through no fault of his own it didn't really work out (America just didn't want another Fast & Furious series. Sorry, dude. You didn't bring enough DIESEL POWER to the table). Like imagine season one of Daredevil with him as a cocky, rakish, college-aged Daredevil in an adaptation of Miller's Man Without Fear. He strikes up this great relationship with this chick Elektra Natchios, but things don't work out. Season two rolls around, it's a couple years later, she comes back--boom, ninja assassin. Imagine Aaron Paul ACTING that shit. Marvel would basically be paying him to stab people in the heart via Netflix Instant, and I would eat it up like Hannibal's cooking.

post #26 of 3735
Thread Starter 

In discussion on this and other forums that Warner Brothers NEEDS the next Man of Steel / Batman movie to make bank and launch some kind of DC renaissance. I thought I would look at it in some kind of mathematical way, so I did some numbers comparing the Fox Marvel properties, the Sony Marvel Properties, the Marvel Studios properties, Marvel (other) properties, and Warner Brothers.


For reference, I am only doing superhero films based on works by those two publishers. I will list the movies included below. I chose 2000 as a starting point because X-Men marked the launch of the contemporary superhero movie era, in my opinion. At that point it had been three years since Batman and Robin. 


  Sony (6) Fox (10) Marvel Studios (9) Marvel Other (5) Warner Brothers (8)
Box Office Gross $3,609,865,398 











Avg. RT Score 61% 54% 79% 41% 62%


Notably, all nine of the Marvel Studios pictures were released in the last 6 years and thus their numbers benefit from inflation, 3D, and an explosion in overseas markets. But given that they have taken home more in "profit" than WB has taken home in revenue, and that they have at least three movies coming out before the next WB entry, one of them an almost guaranteed billion dollar entry... holy crap.


Now obviously box office and the entertainment industry are not zero sum. A dollar earned by Marvel Studios is not one taken away from WB or vice versa. But the fact remains there is nothing keeping Warner Brother from replicating what Marvel is doing except... what? Desire? Will? Competence? What is it? They had (and STILL have) a huge lead in name recognition for their characters.


And anything said about Warner Brothers goes triple for Fox. Holy crap, Fox, get your shit together.


Warner Brothers and Sony are tied for the highest rated movie via Rotten Tomatoes (The Dark Knight, Spider-man 2, 94%), followed by (Iron Man, 93%) (Avengers, 92%) and (Winter Soldier, 89%)


Warner Brothers also has the worst received movie (Catwoman, 9%), followed by (Elektra, 10%), (Spirit of Vengeance, 18%), and a three-way tie (Ghost Rider, Blade:Trinity, Green Lantern, all 26%). Those two dogs are what pull WB down. 


(For the record, I am a huge Marvel fan as many here know, but before accusations of fanboyism fly, the Dark Knight is the best superhero movie of the modern era, Batman '89 is a defining moment of my adolescence, and I really liked Begins.)




Numbers in parentheses denote number of films released 

Box Office Gross = Unadjusted worldwide income

"Profit" = Unadjusted worldwide income - production budget (as listed on (If any one can point me to a source for marketing numbers, I will gladly update)


Sony: Spider-man (1,2,3, Amazing), Ghost Rider (and Spirit of Vengeance)

Fox: X-Men (1,2,3, First Class, Origins, The Wolverine), Fantastic Four (and Rise of the Silver Surfer), Daredevil (and Elektra)

Marvel Studios: Iron Man (1,2,3), Cap (1,2*), Thor (1,2), Incredible Hulk, Avengers   *Winter Soldier is obviously still rolling

Other: Punisher (and War Zone), Blade (2,3), Hulk

Warner Bros: Catwoman, Dark Knight Trilogy, Superman Returns, Watchmen, Man of Steel, Green Lantern

post #27 of 3735
Thread Starter 

I put this together to take a look at some of the "trends" for Marvel movies of late.



If you look at the films in total, you can see three things:

1) as a whole, Marvel has not relied on the Chase the MacGuffin plot but they have relied on it heavily since the Avengers.

2) The stakes are getting... bigger, but less palpable since the Avengers.

3) Villain motivations are really all over the board and stuff.


When you lay it out, it's kind of easy to see why Thor: The Dark World is left holding the bag in terms of actual quality story telling. It's got the chase the MacGuffin plot, the broadest (and therefore least specific and palpable, stakes, and the villain with the least motivation.

post #28 of 3735

I thought more than nihilism, Malekith's motivation was to return the universe as it was when the Dark Elves existed, going back to the old state of the world and perhaps make it something they found livable/acceptable/conquerable?

post #29 of 3735


post #30 of 3735
Thread Starter 

I always try to rebump it when people start ranking the damn movies.


It never works.

post #31 of 3735
Thread Starter 

Marvel Ranks as culled from the Guardians of the Galaxy thread.


Click to embiggen


Apologies if I missed your rankings. After four pages with none I stopped looking. Once again, no two people have the same rankings, and none match the CHUD consensus. There are a pretty clear Top 4, Middle 4, and Bottom 2 (or possibly a Middle 2 and Bottom 4).


I do not like manipulating ordinal data for any number of reasons. I wonder if I could persuade people here to score the MCU movies from 1-10 via a Google form? I'd like to be able to actually dig into the board's perceptions and correlate them to critic ratings, box office, etc. Rankings just won't be helpful for that. I'd like at least 30 people to fill that out. Doable, ya think?


ETA: Please note, the list above was done just after The Dark World's release and at that time it was ranked 3rd in the MCU (out of 8). Now it is 8th (out of 10).


Where it belongs.

post #32 of 3735
sick aberrant behavior!!'
post #33 of 3735
Thread Starter 
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

sick aberrant behavior!!'
So.... that's a no?
post #34 of 3735
Hahahaha no. Don't listen to me.
post #35 of 3735
Yeah, that's funny about Thor 2. I remember folks had a lot more fun with it than they seem to remember in the Guardians thread.

I'll do your Google form Mike.
post #36 of 3735
Thread Starter 
You're all I need bucho!
post #37 of 3735
Thread Starter 

Eh, here it is along with the instructions. If no one fills it out, so be it.

The Great CHUD Marvel Cinematic Universe Scorecard


Please rate each film on a scale from 1 to 10, with 1 being the lowest and 10 being the highest. For these purposes, rate them relative to the superhero / comic book / adventure / action genres. The worst of those genres should be your baseline score of 1, the highest should be your baseline 10. There is an option for not having seen the movie.


Please answer honestly to the best of your ability and consistently against whatever criteria you choose to use.


Remember these aren't rankings, but qualitative scores for each film. 


When you have completed, please make sure to post that you completed the survey in this thread. I will validate responses using the username and timestamp.


Thanks for your help!

post #38 of 3735
Mint. Difficult to rank for me as some are interchangeable.

Incredible Hulk will always be last for me though (haven't even seen im2) as it was such a massive let down after Hulk.

Watched it again last night as it was on TV. I dont know if it was edited (shouldnt have been as it was post 8:30) but the action was real choppy. Could barely watch the much vaunted campus scene. I liked Tim Roth and the hulk scene in rio but the rest was pony.
post #39 of 3735
Thread Starter 

Andy, I think you ranked them instead of scoring them from 1-10 (or9)

post #40 of 3735

filled out, thanks for doing this mik!

post #41 of 3735
Originally Posted by MikeI View Post

Andy, I think you ranked them instead of scoring them from 1-10 (or9)

Shit, sorry. Reading and following instructions has never been my strong point.

Will do over. Cheers and sorry Mikel
post #42 of 3735
Redone, correctly.

Apparently im a sucker for everything post Avengers.

For me they have got the fun just right since that.

Except for GotG which isnt so much "fun" as "absolutely joyful".
post #43 of 3735
Thread Starter 
Got you both and no worries on the mix up. I like large groups of numbers.
post #44 of 3735

Just submitted my scores.


With Thor: The Dark World I was very happy with it after leaving the theatre but thinking on it and more importantly, revisiting it along with the first Thor a few months back on Blu really made it sink in my estimates.  The plot is kind of a mess, there are no discernible arcs among any of the characters and I wanted a lot more from the climax.  Also, I miss the more extravagant, cosmic look of Asgard from the first Thor.  I get what they were going for in TDW and it works sometimes but I still find the first Thor to be an overall better picture.


Contrast that with The Incredible Hulk which I actually liked a lot more than I remember liking it when it first came out.  That movie is like one or two script polishes away from being legitimately great. Roth doesn't get enough credit for his Blonsky who happens to be a pretty great villian.  Norton and Tyler actually had good chemistry as Banner and Betty and the chase scene in Rio is actually a great action sequence.  I really, REALLY wish we get more stand-alone Hulk movies with Ruffalo who truly is a perfect Banner.  I want The Leader, Joe Fixit and She-Hulk dammit!


Really need to revisit Ang Lee's Hulk sometime.

post #45 of 3735
Originally Posted by MikeI View Post

When you have completed, please make sure to post that you completed the survey in this thread. I will validate responses using the username and timestamp.

post #46 of 3735

Have completed it as well. 

post #47 of 3735

Done and done.

post #48 of 3735


post #49 of 3735
Thread Starter 

Thanks all (and Ska and Teitr Styrr who haven't validated yet but I will check on independently). Nine  ten responses so far.

post #50 of 3735


New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: The Franchises Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › The Franchises › Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussion