CHUD.com Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › The Franchises › Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussion - Page 60

post #2951 of 3061

It's part of my bigger problem with these movies as a whole, in that they can never decide if they're set in "our timeline" (where Presidents and American history is basically the same, plus superpowers, like West Wing does it, minus superpowers) or an "alternate timeline" (everything is mostly different). 

post #2952 of 3061
I mean, the existence of SHIELD and the World Council alone means even before Iron Man it’s a different world.

Iron Man 3 makes it a point to have the president be not-Obama.
post #2953 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

"Hey, you know what's a great idea? Blaming every United States foreign policy misadventure from 1945 to 2015, from Vietnam to Iran to Operation Condor to everything in between on HYDRA!" 
-the screenwriters of The Winter Soldier, not a very good movie

It never even occurred to me that the Hydra infiltration could be taken to absolve Shield(/the US) from responsibility for any of the bad shit that happened on its watch.
post #2954 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

It's part of my bigger problem with these movies as a whole, in that they can never decide if they're set in "our timeline" (where Presidents and American history is basically the same, plus superpowers, like West Wing does it, minus superpowers) or an "alternate timeline" (everything is mostly different). 

.....Eh?
post #2955 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post


It never even occurred to me that the Hydra infiltration could be taken to absolve Shield(/the US) from responsibility for any of the bad shit that happened on its watch.

 

I think both readings are fine and I'm not slagging on people who like Winter Soldier (just because I know it riles Bort up), but that's always been my interpretation.

 

Bort, Lindsay Ellis agrees with me. 

post #2956 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

It never even occurred to me that the Hydra infiltration could be taken to absolve Shield(/the US) from responsibility for any of the bad shit that happened on its watch.

Huh? That's a big part of the Hydra reveal.

Wait a moment, is the Hydra reveal not immediately apparent as an attempt to explain various U.S. misadventures, in the context of the MCU, as being the result of Hydra infiltration?
post #2957 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post

.....Eh?

 

Iron Man, even before the introduction of SHIELD, seemed to ground the MCU in a "real world" aesthetic, with references to contemporary American figures and technology - remember "I don't want to see this on your MySpace page?" Later MCU films have gotten further and further away from this - see "not Obama" in IM-3. But they still sort of straddle the divide. It's one of the very small things about this universe I'm pedantic about. 

post #2958 of 3061

 Ellis mini-canon on Cap is good but I do disagree with her on this issue. Which is fine because I disagree with people I actually know.

post #2959 of 3061
Are we talking about grounded and Rocket Raccoon in the same franchise here?
post #2960 of 3061

The great thing about Winter Soldier is that it sets fire to the Marvel cinematic and watches the building collapse. Then Avengers 2 and Civil War ignore basically all of it. 

post #2961 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by catartik View Post

Are we talking about grounded and Rocket Raccoon in the same franchise here?

 

That's been the challenge! How do you keep the grounded aesthetic of the early movies while still bringing in the truly cosmic stuff. It's why I like DOCTOR STRANGE so much, because it does a good job with that. And why I'm amped for INFINITY WAR. 

post #2962 of 3061
Boone’s being too literal with his Marble.
post #2963 of 3061

Every time Boone says anything at all I'm just internally like

 

post #2964 of 3061

You hurt me, Freeman. 

post #2965 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

I think both readings are fine and I'm not slagging on people who like Winter Soldier (just because I know it riles Bort up), but that's always been my interpretation.

Bort, Lindsay Ellis agrees with me. 

Okay, but hewing to that logic, the movie ultimately determines that the rot in Shield is so deep that it needs to be burned to the ground to have any chance of regaining its integrity, no? I don’t see Winter Soldier (or any of the MCU) as having quite that much revolutionary brio, which is why I hesitate to dive too deep into the interpretation where it’s a foreign policy treatise.
post #2966 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Okay, but hewing to that logic, the movie ultimately determines that the rot in Shield is so deep that it needs to be burned to the ground to have any chance of regaining its integrity, no? I don’t see Winter Soldier (or any of the MCU) as having quite that much revolutionary brio, which is why I hesitate to dive too deep into the interpretation where it’s a foreign policy treatise.

The real problem is that Winter Soldier, Civil War, and Ultron ignore the implications of past events and are inconsistent with each other and the MCU.
post #2967 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post


Okay, but hewing to that logic, the movie ultimately determines that the rot in Shield is so deep that it needs to be burned to the ground to have any chance of regaining its integrity, no? I don’t see Winter Soldier (or any of the MCU) as having quite that much revolutionary brio, which is why I hesitate to dive too deep into the interpretation where it’s a foreign policy treatise.

 

And that rot penetrated the highest level, and the Special Ops unit, of SHIELD without Nick Fury, "THE Spy" ever suspecting. 

 

I'm surprised Fury didn't curl up into a bottle of Rye after that decades long Fiasco. 

post #2968 of 3061

I mean, we currently have Neo-Nazis and Nazi sympathizers in our government. I feel like Winter Soldier just uses Hydra as a metaphor, maaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn.


Edited by Bartleby_Scriven - 12/4/17 at 3:56am
post #2969 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

I mean, we currently have Neo-Nazis and Nazi sympathizers in our government. I feel like Winter Soldier just uses Hydra as a metaphor, maaaaaaaaaannnnnnnnn.

 

And not as metaphorical as we'd all like.


Edited by Cylon Baby - 12/4/17 at 7:15am
post #2970 of 3061

Where I can fault Winter Soldier is how if Hydra is supposed to be a stand-in for, let's say, 1%er GOP Tea Party Christian fundamentalist birthers that have infiltrated the government these last 40+ years, we get very little insight on Hydra's ideology. Obviously they want to bring order to a chaotic world, and there appears to be an elitism, but it's all pretty vague. 

post #2971 of 3061

I think it's just like generic Rumsfeld-Cheney-ist American neo-imperialist "Papa knows best" extremism. 

post #2972 of 3061

Yeah, it's too bad Cap 3 wasn't about their original plan, to have the villains be the Serpent Society. Cap fighting actual white supremacists armed with a Mad Bomb that can cause race riots. 

 

Geez, might've actually meant something in 2016.

post #2973 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

Where I can fault Winter Soldier is how if Hydra is supposed to be a stand-in for, let's say, 1%er GOP Tea Party Christian fundamentalist birthers that have infiltrated the government these last 40+ years, we get very little insight on Hydra's ideology. Obviously they want to bring order to a chaotic world, and there appears to be an elitism, but it's all pretty vague. 

 

Yes we get no sense at all why people pledge their lives to Hydra. I mean, Senator Predator makes sense, but why did Rumlo join? And why does he think Hydra is all about change through pain, when it's clear the higher ups don't believe that at all (I guess the Senator's back pain from all that fuckin' is an exception).


Edited by Cylon Baby - 12/4/17 at 7:34am
post #2974 of 3061

Yeah, in The First Avenger they're literally faceless storm troopers and you can just imagine they've been indoctrinated into Red Skull's cult to the point of losing all identity. But in Winter Soldier we see the likes of Rumlow still have inner lives and personalities. He, for instance, smirks and turns away when Nat and Steve fakekiss. 

 

That's another problem I have with Civil War. The opening-scene Crossbones seems like a completely different character. 

post #2975 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Yeah, it's too bad Cap 3 wasn't about their original plan, to have the villains be the Serpent Society. Cap fighting actual white supremacists armed with a Mad Bomb that can cause race riots. 

Geez, might've actually meant something in 2016.
When Winter Soldier came out in 2014, I dont think anyone had predicted on Donald fucking Trump inspiring a Nazi mini-Renaissance yet. That was still back when even the actual Nazis knew better than to mention it in polite company. I can’t fault them too much for not seeing that coming.

This actually makes a nice lesson in how quickly these things can change. Winter Soldier, a more ‘serious’ movie, tiptoes around the Nazi issue. The DC/CW Earth X Crossover had concentration camps, swastika banners, and alternate versions of main characters as the Fuhrer and his wife.
post #2976 of 3061

I remember in 2011 The First Avenger getting criticized for not blatantly showing Swastikas (if you pay attention, it feels like the camera is avoiding the armbands of the visiting Nazi officers that Red Skull disintegrates). At the time it seemed like Marvel either shying away from serious subject matter, or not wanting to inadvertently glamorize it.

 

Fast-forward a few years...

post #2977 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

I remember in 2011 The First Avenger getting criticized for not blatantly showing Swastikas (if you pay attention, it feels like the camera is avoiding the armbands of the visiting Nazi officers that Red Skull disintegrates). At the time it seemed like Marvel either shying away from serious subject matter, or not wanting to inadvertently glamorize it.

 

Fast-forward a few years...

 

That stood out in the "Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes" cartoon. They blatantly say HYDRA tried to conquer Europe in WWII, NOT the Nazis, or Germany/Japan. I was disturbed. 

post #2978 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

I remember in 2011 The First Avenger getting criticized for not blatantly showing Swastikas (if you pay attention, it feels like the camera is avoiding the armbands of the visiting Nazi officers that Red Skull disintegrates). At the time it seemed like Marvel either shying away from serious subject matter, or not wanting to inadvertently glamorize it.

 

Fast-forward a few years...


I took it as a combination of:

 

A:  Wanting to avoid problems with showing the film in Germany.

 

and

 

B:  Not wanting to draw the "real" World War II parallels too closely, lest it trivialize the sacrifice of the real people that fought in that war.  So we get a fictionalized Nazi offshoot for the fictional superhero to fight.

 

Personally, I think you could've made a good point if you'd had Captain America at say, Omaha Beach during the invasion of Normandy, or the Battle of the Bulge in Ardennes, and made it clear that there was both no way he could have "won" it alone, and that for all his power and skill he couldn't save a lot of soldiers from dying.  But that probably would have been more weighty than Marvel generally likes to be in their films.

post #2979 of 3061

Thank GOD the first and third Indiana Jones movies were made when they were. 

post #2980 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

Yeah, it's too bad Cap 3 wasn't about their original plan, to have the villains be the Serpent Society. Cap fighting actual white supremacists armed with a Mad Bomb that can cause race riots. 

 

Geez, might've actually meant something in 2016.

That could be a story for phase four starring Sam Wilson as the new Captain America.

 

I look at Hydra as having the exact same beliefs as the Nazis but since they have better technology, they believe they should be in charge instead of them.

post #2981 of 3061
That’s kind of how I think of them too. “Hitler is an idiot but let’s use his money to build lasers and stuff” kind of guys.
post #2982 of 3061

And in Winter Soldier they basically turn from Nazis into Republicans. 

post #2983 of 3061
Having Wilson as Cap with the whole white supremacist story would be so fucking bold and brilliant. Fuck it, give Wilson the Cap-Wolf story, too.
post #2984 of 3061

Disney owns Pixar, right?  Have them tackle this.

 

post #2985 of 3061
Here’s an interesting wrinkle in the Fox sale.

Fox has the TV rights to Batman, apparently.

But Disney already owns ABC, and they can’t own more than one network.

I wonder how they would decide what properties to keep and which ones to sell.
post #2986 of 3061

I'm pretty sure the deal was for the studio, the IP, and the back catalogue. Fox News, Fox Sports, and Fox TV aren't part of it. But FX is. 

post #2987 of 3061
There ya go.
post #2988 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

I'm pretty sure the deal was for the studio, the IP, and the back catalogue. Fox News, Fox Sports, and Fox TV aren't part of it. But FX is. 

So wait, if FX is part of this does that mean “It’s Always Sunny” takes place in the Marvel Universe. If so...awesome.
post #2989 of 3061

I hate Always Sunny, but sure. 

post #2990 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

I hate Always Sunny, but sure. 

And why might that be?
post #2991 of 3061
I'd much rather have Sunny in the MCU than Agents.

Oh, LEGION.
post #2992 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post


And why might that be?

 

I find it deeply, profoundly unpleasant. 

post #2993 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

I find it deeply, profoundly unpleasant. 
At the risk of speaking for you, I think enjoyment of Always Sunny requires a level of sympathy for terrible people/perpetrators/assholes that’s not really in your wheelhouse. I picture you getting upset every episode imagining the horrible impact of the gangs antics on their victims and society as a whole.
post #2994 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

 

I find it deeply, profoundly unpleasant. 

 

Saying that you find something deeply unpleasant is pretty much a synonym for "hating it."

 

What I'm asking is why you find it deeply unpleasant and/or hate it? 

post #2995 of 3061
Everyone in Sunny is a massive, misanthropic, negative energy asshole. In small doses, I love it.
post #2996 of 3061

I like plenty of material that finds empathy for horrible people - crime novels, Mad Men, Eastbound and Down - to name a few. And it's not like I didn't try - I watched at least the first season, years ago. And I just personally didn't click with this particular set of horrible people. Maybe it becomes more nuanced later, but I just found all the characters to be, well, deeply hateful assholes. They were not people I wanted to spend time with, and I wasn't getting enough laughs out of the experience to merit continuing. 

post #2997 of 3061
What Always Sunny needs is a straight man. The show is depressing with all the characters being horrible people.

Imagine Arrested Development without Michael to anchor all the lunacy and remind us that the Bluths are the exception and not the rule. All the craziness and narcissistic insanity stops being funny when it's the status quo for the established world.
post #2998 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.T. View Post

Imagine Arrested Development without Michael to anchor all the lunacy and remind us that the Bluths are the exception and not the rule. All the craziness and narcissistic insanity stops being funny when it's the status quo for the established world.

 

I haven't seen the latest season. Is it any good?

post #2999 of 3061
Season 4 of Arrested D? It's very different and put a lot of people off. But it has its moments and it's worth watching through at least once.
post #3000 of 3061
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post

I haven't seen the latest season. Is it any good?

It’s basically what DT just described as the bad version of the show.
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: The Franchises
CHUD.com Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › The Franchises › Marvel Cinematic Universe Discussion