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post #151 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob loblaw View Post
 

 

Another problem is the best Warlock cards, including the best demons, will discard your cards and in some cases discard your Guldan.  

 

The best DK cards are Priest and Druid.  

oh yeah, got druid too. 

 

warlock has some good  non discard demons now. The new 4/5 guy that does 1 damage to all enemies is awesome. 

 

You can play a nice demon zoo and just use guldan to finish. It is not tier 1, but it is solid. Midrage hunter is also a nice deck right now, preys on all those greedy priest decks.

 

I am playing a bunch of weird paladin decks with corpsetaker and keleseth, not ideal but fun and can still hit rank 5 with it. 

post #152 of 190
Thread Starter 

Hunters are typically best suited as agro decks, mainly because of their hero power.  So midway thru the game the hero power changes (after DK) and its much more control.  I like the new hero power in theory, but it costs you 2 mana just to create the beast...and you don't get any type of discount after creating the new beast.  So you're paying 2 extra mana for those custom beasts.  I think the hero power should cost 1 mana at most, if not for free. 

post #153 of 190
I ran into the "unbeatable" Warrior control deck that uses Dead Man's Hand to give the player an inexhaustible supply of cards today.

I wonder if it would be possible to beat this deck by using Treachery to force a Howlfiend onto the Warrior's side of the board, then force him to discard his own cards with a well-placed Defile.

I may just check back on this game in a couple of years, when the cards that can be used in ranked play have been completely reset.
post #154 of 190

The thing about the hunter DK is that it gives you an end game, you get to discover a custom beast of your choosing right around the time your deck has run out of steam. Midrange hunter is loaded with strong minions but struggles against classes that can consistently clear your beasts, having a bottomless bag of custom beasts is a nice option. I think he is well balanced and almost auto include as his 5 armour and 2 damage to enemy board is also good against the shaman and other token decks like druid and paladin. 

post #155 of 190

http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/34296-is-the-matchmaking-system-really-random-or-rigged

 

So the mod locked the thread once Team Blizzard ran out of arguments. And basically said that you are not allowed to discuss rigging on their site until further notice. (which means never or under conditions where team blizzard can win the argument)

 

I received two warnings in the thread along the way. 

 

Long story short. hearthstone is not an actual competitive game. Your matchup is rigged, your draw is rigged, your RNG on the effects are rigged. 

post #156 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3nnui View Post
 

http://www.hearthpwn.com/forums/hearthstone-general/general-discussion/34296-is-the-matchmaking-system-really-random-or-rigged

 

So the mod locked the thread once Team Blizzard ran out of arguments. And basically said that you are not allowed to discuss rigging on their site until further notice. (which means never or under conditions where team blizzard can win the argument)

 

I received two warnings in the thread along the way. 

 

Long story short. hearthstone is not an actual competitive game. Your matchup is rigged, your draw is rigged, your RNG on the effects are rigged. 

 

I tried jumping into the middle of that thread, but it's like 50 pages and half the links weren't working for me because I'm currently on my work computer, which restricts certain websites. 

 

I don't know, man.  Anybody who has played Hearthstone probably feels like the game is out to get them with certain match-ups from time to time.  But then again, the person playing you is getting a favorable match-up, so why would the game favor him but not you?  I've gone on big winning streaks and I've lost several in a row, I don't know if there is any rhyme or reason to it.  I've seen some pretty incredible RNG, good and bad, but I've played hundreds of hours, so that's bound to happen.  I've played a lot of poker in my life too, same things happen at a poker table. 

 

My take on it:  I think 90% of the players in this game have the same skill level (more or less).  So things like matchup and RNG are usually the deciding factors in a game where the skill level is the same.  Hearthstone has always been a paper, rock, scissors game.  Certain classes just counter others, which is why once you get to the top of the mountain, you're only going to be facing the decks with the least counters (currently Priest, Druid & Rogue).  This is my biggest problem with the game.  There are classes that are simply unplayable if you really want to rank-up (Hunter).  Or there are classes with only 1 variation that's competitive (Shaman, Warrior).  Blizzard is unable to fix broken classes on the fly.  And maybe it's not reasonable to expect all 9 classes to be competitive at the same time.  With thousands of cards available it's tough to create a perfect balance.

post #157 of 190

I actually address those issues extensively in the thread. It was not until recently that I really came to believe that it is rigged. 

 

The fact that blizzard/activision holds a patent in the area was one consideration.

 

http://www.rollingstone.com/glixel/news/how-activision-uses-matchmaking-tricks-to-sell-in-game-items-w509288

(think the matchmaker repeatedly matching you against decks with perfect draws that feature cards you don't have yet)

 

I wont go into all of the stuff (the thread is there if you truly are interested). But a couple of points.

 

1. By propping up weaker players through favorable matchups and RNG, they can increase the winrate of said players and retain more new players (this is a major concern/goal in the industry).

 

2. Inducing frustration to stimulate spending is common practice in freemium games. Doing so in hearthstone would be through negative odds at the 10 5 and legend barriers.

 

3. What is more likely, hearthstone is balanced for fair competitive play? Or that a multibillion dollar company engineers its product for maximum profit?

 

4. There are a few links in the thread to Ryan Menke (matchmaking guru for blizzard talking about starcraft matchmaking algorithim) and Jeff Kaplan (lead of overwatch) talking about a Design goal for their matchmaking to put players in matches with a 50/50 chance to win. (the menke talk is over an hour and really gets into the hidden mmr issue, how and why it is used). 

post #158 of 190
Thread Starter 

Years ago I played online poker.  Once it came out that people had come up with ways to collude and/or come up with programs that allowed them to outright cheat, I stopped, cold turkey, as did many others.  Now this isn't exactly that, but I do think if there was some perceived "cheating" or "fixing" going on I believe it would turn many players off to the game, which is a risk that just doesn't seem worth it.  

 

Once you get to a certain level in the game, everybody has all the cards anyway or all the ones that matter, at least.  I can see if you were a stone cold new player spinning your wheels at rank 15 and you really wanted to become involved in the game, then yes, maybe you buy 100 packs to bolster your collection. 

 

I don't know if that article definitively proves anything although, I admit, I don't like hearing about such things.

 

As far as matchmaking goes, 50/50 is a goal that many games strive for.  Me and a friend of mine play a lot of call of duty.  We're pretty good at it.  You can see the kill/death ratios of every player in a game lobby.  Our ratios are usually the top 2 in the lobby when we play.  Inevitably we get stuck with the bottomfeeders as teammates to even the odds. 

post #159 of 190
What makes me a believer is not my own win/loss record, but the quality of decks and the quality of players that I run into. I haven't spent a penny on Hearthstone since Whispers of the Old Gods went live 18 months ago. I should be getting my teeth kicked in while I grind out daily quests and squirrel away the gold. The players I'm fighting are running the latest flavor of the month metagame decks, and they know how to use their cards to synergetic effect. There's no reason why they should be at rank 20 with me, especially this close to the end of the month. Something is rigging the game against them, no matter how much they spend on card packs.
post #160 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob loblaw View Post
 

Years ago I played online poker.  Once it came out that people had come up with ways to collude and/or come up with programs that allowed them to outright cheat, I stopped, cold turkey, as did many others.  Now this isn't exactly that, but I do think if there was some perceived "cheating" or "fixing" going on I believe it would turn many players off to the game, which is a risk that just doesn't seem worth it.  

 

Once you get to a certain level in the game, everybody has all the cards anyway or all the ones that matter, at least.  I can see if you were a stone cold new player spinning your wheels at rank 15 and you really wanted to become involved in the game, then yes, maybe you buy 100 packs to bolster your collection. 

 

I don't know if that article definitively proves anything although, I admit, I don't like hearing about such things.

 

As far as matchmaking goes, 50/50 is a goal that many games strive for.  Me and a friend of mine play a lot of call of duty.  We're pretty good at it.  You can see the kill/death ratios of every player in a game lobby.  Our ratios are usually the top 2 in the lobby when we play.  Inevitably we get stuck with the bottomfeeders as teammates to even the odds. 

yep, and those policies exist to keep new players and less skilled players playing. Overwatch does the same thing. From Menke's video it is clear they attempt something similar in starcraft.  

 

The thing is Blizzard does not share it's data on matchmaking. And the supposition is nearly impossible to prove as the idea supposes different matchmaking conditions decided by your recent history, be it win streak, loss streak or perhaps even new purchases. A matchmaking algorithim that is very complex that seeks to reward spenders and protect new/weaker players is highly desirable and is right in line with the companies goals. 

 

You can see these things clearly in many freemium games, and I have no problem with that. Clash Royale is a game that has a lot of similarity with Hearthstone in the way matchmaking appears to work, however, player skill plays a larger role, so playing a deck that counters yours is not nearly as painful. 

 

I did not see what is happening in Hearthstone for a very long time. 7 golden heroes (most with over 1k) ranked wins before the patterns became obvious enough for me to question/look into what was going on. 

 

I am not looking to justify a poor outcome here, I generally climb to rank 5 whenever I dedicate the time and have gone higher on many occaisions. I just was surprised about what I found as I dug deeper. 

 

The damage to the community will not happen, as these allegations are nearly impossible to prove, and once we started making some headway, the discussion was shut down. Possibly this weekend I will try to collect the various pieces of evidence I found and form them into a coherent post and take it to Reddit, if I do, I will link it here if you are interested. 

post #161 of 190
Thread Starter 

I'm looking forward to your thoughts on the JFK assassination. 

post #162 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

What makes me a believer is not my own win/loss record, but the quality of decks and the quality of players that I run into. I haven't spent a penny on Hearthstone since Whispers of the Old Gods went live 18 months ago. I should be getting my teeth kicked in while I grind out daily quests and squirrel away the gold. The players I'm fighting are running the latest flavor of the month metagame decks, and they know how to use their cards to synergetic effect. There's no reason why they should be at rank 20 with me, especially this close to the end of the month. Something is rigging the game against them, no matter how much they spend on card packs.

 

I don't think it's some sort of conspiracy.  The more players that play the better quality of decks you're going to find towards the bottom of the ranking system.  It's inevitable.  Each month it gets tougher to reach legend because of that.  You used to face hilariously random decks when climbing through the teens.  Now you face tier one decks at rank 15.  People are getting better.  For everybody that wins a game and takes a step forward, somebody also loses and takes a step back.  It's simply more competitive up and down the ladder.

post #163 of 190
Thread Starter 

And I don't think it's necessary to spend a lot of money for Hearthstone and be successful.  Sure, if you want all tier 1 decks on day 1 of an expansion, then yes, you probably need to spend money.  But if you continue to do the daily quests and save up gold, you should get what you need eventually thru pack opening and crafting.  For all the Hoopla surrounding the DK legendaries, there are only two that I would call "must-haves" if you really want to climb...the Priest and the Druid.  Some of the other ones are fun, but not really competitive in the current meta.

post #164 of 190
Thread Starter 

After running into nothing but Priests and Druids I decided to try a more aggressive deck, so I put together a Kelseth/DK Warlock deck.  It can be a fun deck, but the problem is the DK never comes into play.  Usually the game is decided one way or the other before turn 10, either you steam roll your opponent early or your opponent has enough stall to get you within range of some sort of OTK situation. 

 

Sadly the deck is still really weak vs priest and druid.  It's silly how good those decks are.  Priest and Druid simply have better quality (broken) cards than every other class.  When everybody at the top of the ladder is playing one of two classes the game has a problem.  There are cards that obviously need to be nerfed, but Blizzard never does these things in a timely manner.  

post #165 of 190
Thread Starter 

Also, I played somebody with the exact same name as me, only his name was in lowercase.

post #166 of 190
Thread Starter 

Let's talk for a moment how broken Ultimate Infestation is:  10 mana, deal 5 damage, summon a 5/5, draw 5 cards. 

 

I'm going to break it down piece by piece:

 

Deal 5 Damage - So this a little worse than a fireball, but much better than a shadowbolt.  A fireball does 6 damage for 4 mana and can be aimed at any target.  A shadowbolt does 4 damage for 3 mana but can only be aimed at minions.  So 5 damage aimed at any target is probably around 3.5 mana of value.

 

Summon a 5/5.  A 5/5 tiger with stealth is 5 mana.  This is a little worse than that.  We'll call it 4.5 mana of value.

 

Draw 5 cards.  Arcane Intellect is draw 2 cards for 3 mana.  Sprint is draw 4 cards for 7 mana.  Draw 5 cards is probably around 8.5 mana of value. 

 

 

Putting it all together, you're looking at roughly 16.5 of mana value for 10 mana.  Plus the fact that all of these attributes are on one card gives it even more value.

 

You could change all the values on this card from 5 to 4...and it would still be played in every control deck.  That's how broken it is.

post #167 of 190
Thread Starter 

Only slightly more broken than Ultimate Infestation is the Raza/DK priest.

 

Playing against a Priest is absolute torture. 

 

Priest has so much stall, and so much heal, that you can't rush them down (unless they draw really poorly).  And once you get to mid to late game vs. this deck you're just dead once they have their Velen/mind blast combo. 

 

The only deck I've seen consistently beat this deck is (surprise, surprise) a DK Druid.  And that's only if you can get the DK out early to start building your armor.  In theory a control warrior could do the same thing, but control warrior loses to almost every other deck so it's not even worth mentioning. 

 

For added fun each Priest game is like 25 minutes long, so it's a slow, painful death.  At least with pirate warrior it was quick. 

post #168 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob loblaw View Post
 

Let's talk for a moment how broken Ultimate Infestation is:  10 mana, deal 5 damage, summon a 5/5, draw 5 cards. 

 

I'm going to break it down piece by piece:

 

Deal 5 Damage - So this a little worse than a fireball, but much better than a shadowbolt.  A fireball does 6 damage for 4 mana and can be aimed at any target.  A shadowbolt does 4 damage for 3 mana but can only be aimed at minions.  So 5 damage aimed at any target is probably around 3.5 mana of value.

 

Summon a 5/5.  A 5/5 tiger with stealth is 5 mana.  This is a little worse than that.  We'll call it 4.5 mana of value.

 

Draw 5 cards.  Arcane Intellect is draw 2 cards for 3 mana.  Sprint is draw 4 cards for 7 mana.  Draw 5 cards is probably around 8.5 mana of value. 

 

 

Putting it all together, you're looking at roughly 16.5 of mana value for 10 mana.  Plus the fact that all of these attributes are on one card gives it even more value.

 

You could change all the values on this card from 5 to 4...and it would still be played in every control deck.  That's how broken it is.

 

Oh my god, I forgot about the gain 5 armor as well.  Add another 2 mana of value to that equation.  18.5 mana value for 10 mana.

post #169 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob loblaw View Post
 

Let's talk for a moment how broken Ultimate Infestation is:  10 mana, deal 5 damage, summon a 5/5, draw 5 cards. 

 

I'm going to break it down piece by piece:

 

Deal 5 Damage - So this a little worse than a fireball, but much better than a shadowbolt.  A fireball does 6 damage for 4 mana and can be aimed at any target.  A shadowbolt does 4 damage for 3 mana but can only be aimed at minions.  So 5 damage aimed at any target is probably around 3.5 mana of value.

 

Summon a 5/5.  A 5/5 tiger with stealth is 5 mana.  This is a little worse than that.  We'll call it 4.5 mana of value.

 

Draw 5 cards.  Arcane Intellect is draw 2 cards for 3 mana.  Sprint is draw 4 cards for 7 mana.  Draw 5 cards is probably around 8.5 mana of value. 

 

 

Putting it all together, you're looking at roughly 16.5 of mana value for 10 mana.  Plus the fact that all of these attributes are on one card gives it even more value.

 

You could change all the values on this card from 5 to 4...and it would still be played in every control deck.  That's how broken it is.

and it is given to the class with ramp

post #170 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by bob loblaw View Post
 

Only slightly more broken than Ultimate Infestation is the Raza/DK priest.

 

Playing against a Priest is absolute torture. 

 

Priest has so much stall, and so much heal, that you can't rush them down (unless they draw really poorly).  And once you get to mid to late game vs. this deck you're just dead once they have their Velen/mind blast combo. 

 

The only deck I've seen consistently beat this deck is (surprise, surprise) a DK Druid.  And that's only if you can get the DK out early to start building your armor.  In theory a control warrior could do the same thing, but control warrior loses to almost every other deck so it's not even worth mentioning. 

 

For added fun each Priest game is like 25 minutes long, so it's a slow, painful death.  At least with pirate warrior it was quick. 

Raza is even worse when over half your oppoennts get raza on turn 4/5 and DK on 7/8. This is so common, it is part of why I no longer believe the game is random. 

post #171 of 190
Thread Starter 

Quote:

Originally Posted by 3nnui View Post

 

Raza is even worse when over half your oppoennts get raza on turn 4/5 and DK on 7/8. This is so common, it is part of why I no longer believe the game is random. 

 

The worst part is they don't even need to play Raza on turn 5, it just needs to be played before the end of the game.  That deck has so much stall there isn't that much urgency to get him out early.  Obviously it makes them that much tougher when the Raza does come out early. 

post #172 of 190
Thread Starter 

The one deck I've had moderate success with vs. the Druid and the Priest is a Keleseth Rogue deck.  It's aggressive enough to get a lot of early pressure but it doesn't flood the board with small minions making it susceptible to AOEs and Spreading Plague (Another Broken-ass Druid card).  Keleseth is a fun card, and used in conjunction with Shadowstep it actually gives you a chance vs. those decks.

post #173 of 190

yeah, I just crafted the vilespines for the kelerogue recently. Shadowstep great with him, and especially broken with bonemare. I made rank 5 with a keleseth paladin last month, I mixed in divine shield and some other handbuff cards, makes a very resilient deck. 

post #174 of 190
Those hand buff Paladin cards from Gadgetzan are amazing. I actually lose matches to Paladins now. Sometimes.
post #175 of 190
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

Those hand buff Paladin cards from Gadgetzan are amazing. I actually lose matches to Paladins now. Sometimes.

devolve really wrecks them, so if I play it too much, the matchmaker gives me a steady diet of shaman with two evolve and two frog. 

post #176 of 190
Devolve can fuck straight off.
post #177 of 190
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3nnui View Post
 

yeah, I just crafted the vilespines for the kelerogue recently. Shadowstep great with him, and especially broken with bonemare. I made rank 5 with a keleseth paladin last month, I mixed in divine shield and some other handbuff cards, makes a very resilient deck. 

 

You should give the Rogue a whirl.  Turn 2 Keleseth/Shadowstep/Keleseth will be GG in a lot of cases.  Follow that up with the turn 3 Pirate Captain with a 4/4 Patches popping out feels so good vs a Priest. 

 

Shadowstep is so effective with this deck.  Keleseth, Vilespine, Leroy Jenkins work real well with it.  Leroy + Shadowstep + Leroy + Cold Blood + Cold Blood is 20 damage for 10 mana, although you probably wouldn't need the full 20 damage for a finisher.

 

I've got an elemental flavor with mine, choosing that 4-mana phoenix card and the 7-mana card (Blazecaller IIRC) that can do 5 damage if you played a elemental the previous turn.  I like the extra reach that it can provide.  I play that over Cairn, although Cairn can be good too. 

post #178 of 190
Thread Starter 

I've thought about trying to fit a Black Knight in somehow because just about every popular deck runs taunts and/or Bonemare.  The problem is you want your Rogue deck to be Pro-Active and not Re-active and BK is such a reactive card.  It feels bad on turn 6 to play a BK because it's the only minion in your hand, not because there's a taunt to destroy.

post #179 of 190
Tortollan NPC and minipet models were shown off at a panel about the next WoW expansion at Blizzcon, marking them as the first creatures to be introduced in Hearthstone before migrating to the MMO.

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
post #180 of 190
Thread Starter 

Keleseth DK Warlock with devilsaur eggs and 2 ravenous pterrordax.  Pretty fun.

post #181 of 190

Yeah, basically the meta is Keleseth bonemare scalebane variant, Shadowcheese priest or exodia mage. Might be the all time worst meta. 

post #182 of 190
Thread Starter 

I'm now playing a DK N'zoth Hunter.  I've beaten 3 DK Priests in a row, but did lose to a Rogue who was able to shadowstep his Kelseth on turn one.  I'm using 2 Tolvir Wardens and a Buzzard for card draw with five 1-drops.

 

The DK hunter hero power is murder on Priests.  I would imagine if you get a good opener on a Druid you would be in good shape, although I haven't faced a Druid yet.

post #183 of 190

The Hunter DK is nice, but if priest or druid get rolling it is over. Once Anduin has a machine gun it does not matter how cool a beast you build unless you get untargetable on there and too big to dragonfire. 

post #184 of 190
Thread Starter 
The key vs priest is making them burn those cheap spells playing defense early, which you should be able to do as a Hunter. My deck runs 2 Bearsharks and 2 Fledglings, both cards are hard for a Priest to remove. Each of the games I won I used a Tundra Rhino + Fledgling combo to get instant Adapts. Once a Priest has to start burning cards like Silence on your Fledglings or Highmanes, you're in control. Once the Priest drops his DK, you're free to start creating big creatures. Most of the ones I created had stealth so they couldn't instantly be killed. Also, if you create a creature with lifesteal the Priest has to kill it otherwise he wont be able to burn you down. Eventually they just run out of cards. Those games were actually pretty easy.

Vs a Druid you just want to get your threats down early, while the Druid is ramping. Bearsharks, Fledglings, Highmanes. In a perfect world you would get both Highmanes down, then bring them back with Nzoth on 10. You want to be within striking distance of a kill before he can get his big boys down. The DK hunter power is less important vs. a druid because you will probably lose if the game goes on too long. Eventually his threats just become too much.

The problem for this deck is Rogue. A rogue can usually combat a hunter's early game and once a rogue has control of the board its hard to get back as a hunter.
post #185 of 190

problem is board clears, the common shadowpriest run priest/circle, dragonfire, that weaken all spell plus shadowword horror and kazakas. He also can get whichever one he needs with shadow visions, has both the single removal spells and by turn 10 he has his infinite machine gun.

 

I know if hunter curves out and priest does not draw into removal hunter can win, standard beast hunter can do the job just fine, but if priest topdecks answers, game is over once anduin hits the board. 

 

right now the meta is pretty stale, tempo (many classes), big priest or kazakus priest, exodia mage, or druid. Most of the games are decided by draw. There is little to no finesse due to the priest looming over everything. 

post #186 of 190
Thread Starter 
The raza priests only have one-offs, as long as you dont overcommit you should be fine. The priest is on the defensive from turn one and never gets board control. So he's not damaging you. By the time Anduin comes out, his health is in the teens and the hunter is still around 30 and you're dropping custom monstrosities onto the board. I'm 5-0 vs Priest with this deck. It's actually been a pretty easy matchup.

I'm 0-2 vs Rogues, but I only just realized I don't have Golakkas in my deck, which would help greatly in that matchup.
post #187 of 190

cool, maybe I give hunter another go if I am facing a lot of priests, pretty much only doing my dailies rght now waiting for next card set. 

post #188 of 190
Thread Starter 

My list, in case you're interested:

 

2 AlleyCats

2 Raptor Hatchlings

1 Jeweled Mccaw

2 RazorMaws

2 Golakkas

1 Troll BeastRager

1 Kindly Grandmother

2 Bearsharks

1 Eaglehorn

2 Kill Commands

2 Vicious Fledglings

2 Houndmasters

1 Starving Buzzard

2 Tolvir Wardens

2 Tundra Rhinos

1 Skulking Geist

DK Rexxar

2 Highmanes

N'zoth

 

This deck has a lot of synergy.  The biggest problem that I have with Hunter in general is lack of natural card draw.  With this deck you end up with 7-one drops, which get summoned by the Tolvir Wardens.  You can use those one-drops with the Buzzard to draw even more cards.  You'll notice I don't have any Animal Companions in the deck.  I cut both of those to fit in the Golakkas, but if you're  not running into Rogues or warriors, you may end up taking those out.  Dropping a Fledgling and/or a Bearshark while you have board control is the dream vs a Priest or a Druid.

post #189 of 190
Thread Starter 

3nnui,

 

If you really want to rage, check out the new Priest card Psychic Scream.  

 

I don't know how Priest loses after the new expansion.

post #190 of 190

The new dragon that comes with a free hellfire was enough to piss me off, I have no idea what blizzard is doing with this game, it has gotten progressively worse with each update and expansion. 

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