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2016: God is Dead - Page 450

post #22451 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
 

I don't really blame that guy.

 

I do. At some point he should've noticed his work was having the opposite effect intended.

 

And history, recent and farther back, is littered with people saying "But I thought X would never happen..."

 

I don't think he should get solo credit for Trump's success, but he certainly deserves significant blame.

post #22452 of 22490

In the great construction of who deserves blame for this, some random asshole writing fake news is pretty low on the list.

 

This repeated insistence that people aren't actually responsible for their political choices is what is sinking us deeper into the morass. BS artistry goes back to the very dawn of written language. The idea that now happens to be the point where some random asshole can tip the fate of the Republic by vomiting out some nonsense is frankly hard to take seriously. It discounts the years and years of anti-intellectualism, anti-elitism, and the willful embrace of ignorance as a lifestyle. The people who believe this stuff are the problem, not the ones writing it.

post #22453 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post

It discounts the years and years of anti-intellectualism, anti-elitism, and the willful embrace of ignorance as a lifestyle. The people who believe this stuff are the problem, not the ones writing it.

 

It would be one thing if these folks were writing satire and it was prominently branded as such and admittedly, it may have started out as a joke but at a certain point it ceases to be funny. 

 

These amateur cyber 'comedians' (charlatans) may have gotten caught up in their own troll-ism and the $$ that came with it but at a certain point they knew what they were doing was wrong....but they still did it anyway.

They are ultimately just as bad as those prosperity gospel preachers that take advantage of ignorant and desperate people by selling them a product that they know is bullshit.  

post #22454 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post
They are ultimately just as bad as those prosperity gospel preachers that take advantage of ignorant and desperate people by selling them a product that they know is bullshit.  

 

Yup.

post #22455 of 22490

When you let a hustler, or a charlatan, or a conman, get into a position where he can swing an election -

 

the problem isn't with the hustler. There are supposed to be institutional safeguards against this kind of thing. If the whole thing rests on the hope that someone out there isn't going to take advantage of the situation, then its fucked from the get.

post #22456 of 22490
It's one thing to say that people like that aren't the primary problem (and yes, certainly people bear responsibility for who/what they choose to put their trust in,) but to argue that that doesn't make what they're doing wrong is just bizarre.
post #22457 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
 

 

This repeated insistence that people aren't actually responsible for their political choices is what is sinking us deeper into the morass.

 

Yeah, this is where I struggle with all of the admonitions of the liberal elite ("elite" being applied loosely to encompass to the majority of the electorate that did actually vote against Trump) having brought this on themselves by being so condescending toward rural whites.  It's even more condescending to claim that those people aren't responsible for their own votes, that they can't possibly be expected to see a con man for what he is.  If liberals are the true villains in the story of Trump's rise to power, that still makes the common folk a bunch of fucking rubes, which imo affords them even less respect.  I'll give Trump voters the credit of assuming that they knew what they were voting for, and that included some heaping dollops of prejudice.  That doesn't mean that 60 million people are totes cool with the KKK, or were raging misogynists, or Islamophobes or antisemites, but the great thing about the Trump campaign is that it offered a buffet option to cater to anyone and everyone's idiosyncratic blend of prejudice (and we all have one).   Whatever your particular fear or hang up, he was happy to validate it and usually go a step further, so you could still feel like the reasonable one even though you really would rather no more immigrants came in to the country (just for awhile, mind you, until you get your bearings back some).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post
 

When you let a hustler, or a charlatan, or a conman, get into a position where he can swing an election -

 

the problem isn't with the hustler. There are supposed to be institutional safeguards against this kind of thing. If the whole thing rests on the hope that someone out there isn't going to take advantage of the situation, then its fucked from the get.

 

And there's this.  While I'm all for self-examination as a means to self-improvement, and I vehemently disagree with people like that Politicat guy that say the answer is to stoop lower than the other side, the Democratic self-flagellation has gotten to be a lot bit much.  Particularly since it's in service of "excusing" a raw-number victory.  You want to focus on one thing that "cost" the Democrats this election?  It's that the institutional safeguards have been gutted. Voter suppression and gerrymandering are the tools allowing the GOP to remain viable in 2016 with a platform too outmoded to address the issues of 1929.  Electoral reform should be the DNC's #1 priority (and anyone that laments our consistently low voter turnout without also advocating for getting rid of the Electoral College needs a smack in the head - it's the most wildly effective form of voter suppression ever devised), but it's not.  I can only assume its because no politician wants to remove a potential weapon from their arsenal, no matter how many times the opposition beats the hell out of them with it. 

 

We got into this a bit last week, but the system is so imbalanced that the narrative coming out of this election is that it was the revenge of the politically-invisible rural white voter rearing its head.  Rural whites felt they weren't being heard, in an election where presidential votes were weighted most heavily in:

 

1) Wyoming

2) Vermont

3) DC

4) North Dakota

5) Alaska

6) South Dakota

7) Rhode Island

8) Delaware

9) Montana

10) New Hampshire

 

A vote for president in these areas is worth the same % of an EV as between 2 (New Hampshire) and 4 (Wyoming) votes cast in California or New York.  Just for fun, let's look at the next ten on the list:

 

11) Maine

12) Hawaii

13) Nebraska

14) Idaho

15) West Virginia

16) New Mexico

17) Utah

18) Nevada

19) Kansas

20) Arkansas

 

Maine is still worth 2 NY votes, while Arkansas is a hair below 1.5.  The point being that system is and has always been such that the rural-est, white-est states* have the most say in selecting a president.  Now this has always been public knowledge, and it's still accurate to say the Democrats lost because they failed to win over this group.  But that's because their voice matters so much more; the narrative that rural whites are legitimately disenfranchised is beyond fantasy.  They may feel that way (in fact, I believe many truly do), but empirically, they are and always have been the most enfranchised subgroup** in the nation, even without taking the wide and storied history of discriminatory voting laws into account. 

 

Democrats would do better looking for ways to address this issue, imo, than debating whether Debbie Wasserman-Schulz or Lena Dunham did more to alienate rural Pennsylvanians.

 

*and at least since 1861, the District Of Columbia

**again, along with DC residents


Edited by Schwartz - 11/19/16 at 9:35am
post #22458 of 22490

post #22459 of 22490

There's still a Senate race, Democrats.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/view/articles/2016-11-16/democrats-can-t-write-off-the-last-senate-race-in-louisiana

 

They'll likely lose, but it's worth a shot.  Louisiana is in dire straits and has a Democratic governor because of it.

post #22460 of 22490

Win or lose, here are some pretty big reasons Dems should fight for that Louisiana Senate seat:

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/louisiana

post #22461 of 22490

Russia being behind the hacks of the DNC should have been a bigger story than Hilary's emails. The fact that the media dropped the ball on this is why I don't blame Hillary,

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/americans-keep-looking-away-from-the-elections-most-alarming-story/2016/11/25/83533d3e-b0e2-11e6-8616-52b15787add0_story.html?postshare=5401480158075793&tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.edad458edfe8

Personally I'm equal parts scared and pissed off that Russia interfered with the election and got away with it.

post #22462 of 22490

Of course when you bring up the Russian involvement you get branded a conspiracy nut by Trump supporters even though there is definitive proof of it out there. 

 

This is a huge story and I can't believe it how downplayed it was.

post #22463 of 22490

Vladimir Putin is the baddest dude on the planet. The American People are simply not up to the challenge.

post #22464 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz View Post

Russia being behind the hacks of the DNC should have been a bigger story than Hilary's emails. The fact that the media dropped the ball on this is why I don't blame Hillary,
https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/americans-keep-looking-away-from-the-elections-most-alarming-story/2016/11/25/83533d3e-b0e2-11e6-8616-52b15787add0_story.html?postshare=5401480158075793&tid=ss_fb&utm_term=.edad458edfe8
Personally I'm equal parts scared and pissed off that Russia interfered with the election and got away with it.

A story this big deserves to have real evidence to support it, not just solemn promises that it's so from the same intelligence agencies that brought you "yeah, Saddam totally has WMD's, take our word for it." In an age when using a cell phone or email is basically the same as sky writing, you'd think there would be correspondence from Putin ordering all this interference in the election. Photographs of the carrier pigeons and smoke signals. Fucking something.

One telltale sign is that every news agency that accuses Putin of being behind the election results also insists that his efforts to try to stop our regime change efforts in Syria and the Ukraine constitute aggression on his part. We like to insist that we're too smart to fall for this shit when Republicans and their media organs do it.
post #22465 of 22490

'Real' evidence.


But not that evidence.

 

WMDEEEEZ!!

Now, if we aren't going to believe the experts, when the experts say they have seen the evidence and detail what that evidence is. What exactly are we going on?

Post-fact is just the PC name for Big Lie. Lets ignore the evidence, because someone won't be satisfied unless we get Putin, in writing, making the order. Totally reasonable.

Iraq was a bogus deal, but it wasn't the experts twisting the angle there. It was the democratically elected administration, and all his Constitutionally appointed pals, with the overwhelming majoritarian support of the Great American People, who maybe should have known better. The real experts, guys like Hans Blix, they were right then, they are probably right now.

But yeah, I guess it makes sense to lift that experience and use it to discredit the dozen or more agencies who are confirming what should be plainly obvious to anyone who has been paying attention.

post #22466 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post

Post-fact is just the PC name for Big Lie. Lets ignore the evidence, because someone won't be satisfied unless we get Putin, in writing, making the order. Totally reasonable.

No, sir, the "Big Lie" is when someone repeats a falsehood until the public accepts it as truth, engineering a climate where the facts no longer matter because "everybody knows." It's appropriate that you bring the term up, though.
post #22467 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post


Now, if we aren't going to believe the experts, when the experts say they have seen the evidence and detail what that evidence is.

Are these the same "experts" who assured us that the North Koreans hacked Sony?

post #22468 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post

Vladimir Putin is the baddest dude on the planet. The American People are simply not up to the challenge.
I gotta say, I kind of agree with this. I've certainly got more respect for him...in the broader sense of the term...than the goofs fuckin up our country..
post #22469 of 22490

Have no fear Fraid, the Top Minds of CHUD assure us that Putin has nothing to do with any of this, and in fact any attempt to prove or disprove anything is no longer possible, since a simple handwave about the 'experts' constitutes a meaningful argument. The solipsism of contemporary politics, everyone. Good job.

post #22470 of 22490
At least he's smart enough TO manipulate other people above the level of po uneducated white trash..
post #22471 of 22490

The official government assessment is not sufficient, three independent private-firm analyses do not qualify. I guess this is just an unknowable black box of mysterious circumstance, and the only thing that can be submitted as actual 'evidence' is whatever Assange is passing off from his handlers.

 

Just for grins tho. What is your specific methodological criticism of this stuff? Is the smoking gun just not smoking enough? Maybe if we squint really hard we can somehow tie Crowdstrike to (((George Soros))).

https://www.crowdstrike.com/blog/bears-midst-intrusion-democratic-national-committee/

post #22472 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
 

Win or lose, here are some pretty big reasons Dems should fight for that Louisiana Senate seat:

 

http://talkingpointsmemo.com/edblog/louisiana

 

Incidentally, I just cast my early vote for this runoff.

post #22473 of 22490
The editor of one of the online news sources targeted on that "fake Russian news sites" list decided to do some journalism on who exactly runs the organization that published that list, and what is their background. The whole article deserves to be read in full.

My willingness to tank Zhukov's ad hominem arguments isn't going to solve this problem, and I'm not going to belabor the point out of sheer stubbonness or some juvenile need to have the last word. I'm just saying it because the truth deserves to be said. The six owners of most of our media wanted Clinton in office, even while they harvested advertising money from the eye-catching spectacle of Trump's campaign, because those six companies are also major war profiteers. Those companies' respective media operations have distributed pure propaganda designed to sell war to the public before, they'll do it again, and they're doing it now.

ETA: It shouldn't need to be stated, but none of this is a defense of Trump. The man has a dumpster fire where most human beings have hearts, but he should be criticized for the shit he actually does. This matters, because we're going to have a chance to fire him in 2020, and it would behoove us to get his competitor's nomination right next time.

That's going to mean nominating someone who can spare us the saber-rattling Boris Badinoff fantasies and talk in honest terms about Trump's personal foreign debts or the flagrant lawbreaking over at the Trump Foundation, without having to worry about drawing attention to their own financial fuckery. If the best we can muster is another red-baiting warmonger who's so crooked that they need to have their servants help them screw their pants on in the morning, then it'll be clear to the world that we haven't learned a damn thing from this go-around.
_
Edited by Reasor - 11/28/16 at 10:40am
post #22474 of 22490

Zhukov, which are you more angry about?  The perceived Russian interference in a U.S. election that MAY have put in a candidate you were not in favor of?  Or the dead to rights fact that someone's hacking exposed the absolutely counter to democratic ideals you so readily espouse in the form of the corruption, influence peddling and collusion of the media with your preferred candidate and party?

 

It very much seems like a forest for the trees, clean up your own yard before you start casting aspersions on your neighbor situation.

 

The media actively collaborated with one candidate and campaign to reduce your rights in the democracy you so virulently claim to want to defend.  They schemed and colluded to reduce your voice, the one man, one vote principle by installing their preferred coronation queen over other candidates.

 

It seems the stuff you're arguing about has many, much more important foundational layers that need to be attacked.  The spire at the top of the building you see before you may indeed be an eyesore but if you knock it down people will just look a little lower to the building it sets upon.  I think you need to be looking at, and be angry about, the foundation of what these hacks and emails uncovered.

post #22475 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

That's going to mean nominating someone who can spare us the saber-rattling Boris Badinoff fantasies
Badenov, you philistine.
post #22476 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

The editor of one of the online news sources targeted on that "fake Russian news sites" list decided to do some journalism on who exactly runs the organization that published that list, and what is their background. The whole article deserves to be read in full.

 

Interesting article....this one paragraph stood out to me....or more specifically, the first few words.
 

Quote:

If any of this stuff is correct, it means that this whole effort to tar the country’s leading alternative news sites and leading independent journalists on left and right as Russian agents working as part of a propaganda conspiracy is really just a gigantic “fake news” story perpetrated by the government, and worse perhaps, the military — with the willing connivance of one of the country’s leading newspapers — an idea that should turn the stomach and infuriate any real American.

 

I honestly wonder if, now and in the near future, there will be a way to actually detect what is or is not fact.

 

As it stands now, someone posts something that is actually 'factual' only to have it 'debunked' (falsely) in an attempt to confuse readers/public.....to say nothing of the fact that the public, by and large is becoming more and more ignorant when it comes to what they see and hear.

 

We have anti-vaxxers who, despite being shown evidence that the information they were basing their beliefs on was demonstrably false, still remain in the 'vaccinations are bad' camp.

 

I can only imagine that the mis/disinformation campaigns will be getting exponentially worse in the coming years. 

post #22477 of 22490
I've yet to be convinced anyone really knows how involved the Russians were, if at all. The way that specific narrative was pushed so hard, while being so coy with specific details, was a little suspect IMO given that those pushing the idea were the ones to gain from it catching on.
post #22478 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

 In an age when using a cell phone or email is basically the same as sky writing, you'd think there would be correspondence from Putin ordering all this interference in the election. Photographs of the carrier pigeons and smoke signals. Fucking something.

Because easily accessible paper trails of orders for an espionage op to subvert the democracy of your most powerful enemy are a thing that happens all the fucking time. Putin was the head of the KGB, ffs. If there's anything he knows, it's spycraft.

post #22479 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post
 

 I think you need to be looking at, and be angry about, the foundation of what these hacks and emails uncovered.

 

Which uncovered...nothing of much importance.

post #22480 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
 

Because easily accessible paper trails of orders for an espionage op to subvert the democracy of your most powerful enemy are a thing that happens all the fucking time. Putin was the head of the KGB, ffs. If there's anything he knows, it's spycraft.


Putin was never the head of the KGB.  He was never more than at-best a middle manager.

 

He was, however, head of the FSB...it's successor. So yeah.

post #22481 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post
 


Putin was never the head of the KGB.  He was never more than at-best a middle manager.

 

He was, however, head of the FSB...it's successor. So yeah.

 

Yeah, I mean at his peak of his career, he was only a recruiter for the KGB, but he served as a ground level spy in Berlin, which was the equivalent of the front line in the Cold War as far as espionage was concerned. He publically jumped from the KGB at precisely the right time and took over the FSB and rebuilt it in his image. I can imagine the internal politics in the FSB make the CIA look like kindergarten so to be able to achieve that and take the country without getting yourself in an unfortunate car accident was quite an achievement.

 

Frankly, as far as sheer personal political competency Putin is hard to beat on the world stage. Not saying I'd want him to be my leader (Russia is still a frikkin basket case after all), but you've got to hand the guy his dues.

post #22482 of 22490
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint View Post
 

 

Yeah, I mean at his peak of his career, he was only a recruiter for the KGB, but he served as a ground level spy in Berlin, which was the equivalent of the front line in the Cold War as far as espionage was concerned. He publically jumped from the KGB at precisely the right time and took over the FSB and rebuilt it in his image. I can imagine the internal politics in the FSB make the CIA look like kindergarten so to be able to achieve that and take the country without getting yourself in an unfortunate car accident was quite an achievement.

 

Frankly, as far as sheer personal political competency Putin is hard to beat on the world stage. Not saying I'd want him to be my leader (Russia is still a frikkin basket case after all), but you've got to hand the guy his dues.

 

 

Putin's success has more to do with the stupidity of the citizens of his enemy countries. I am sure he is a hardass, but America is making it easy for him when millions vote for a guy like Trump despite basic logic.  

post #22483 of 22490

Jill Stein drops her recount suit in Pennsylvania

 

So. Y'know. Fuck Jill Stein. Again.

post #22484 of 22490
But Viggo voted for her!

What a precious little person he is..
post #22485 of 22490
Heeeeyyy. I just rewatched Cronenberg's Eastern Promises last night. I don't have to agree with his bonehead politics to dig the guy's work.
post #22486 of 22490
Oh, I agree. He's a very very good actor. I was just being flip..
post #22487 of 22490

On the other hand, fuck that Reagan guy.  His work as an actor clearly suffered because of his politics.

post #22488 of 22490

Well, shit. Maybe I take it back

 

The Green Party is taking the PA recount case to federal court.

post #22489 of 22490

[sorry, wrong thread!]

post #22490 of 22490
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