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DC Cinematic Universe Discussion - Page 6

post #251 of 3585

Well, it is from some of the same creatives behind Flash and Arrow, so hopefully this isn't another David E. Kelley's Wonder Woman.

post #252 of 3585
Thread Starter 
What do I want from a Supergirl show? Cancellation. All superhero shows are garbage. People merely settle because it's the best they can get.
post #253 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post

All superhero shows are garbage. 

 

All? Or just live action? 

post #254 of 3585
Thread Starter 
I was referring to live action with that statement, though I could care less about 99% of the cartoons out there - but that's less about quality and more about them just not being for me.
post #255 of 3585

You bite your fucking tongue, sir.  Agent Carter and the Flash are NOT garbage. 

post #256 of 3585

He just wants all superhero shows to be dour and boring. Nolanesque if you will.

 

ARROW and THE FLASH are the best live action DC projects going right now. If Supergirl is being done the same people it might have a chance of being entertaining.

post #257 of 3585
Thread Starter 
No, I just want them to be well written. Just like I want for your posts.
post #258 of 3585
*mic drop*
post #259 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

*adorable mic drop*

 

It's all so cute and earnest in here. I love it!

post #260 of 3585

I must say I was one of those folks who stubbornly refused to watch Arrow assuming it was a Smallville by way of Chris Nolan's Batman.

When I finally sat down to it I devoured it, for the practical stunts and amazing fight choreography alone it's worth a watch. Also I want Emily Rickards to live in my house, I also want Stephen Amell to live in my house. Also I want John Barrowman to live in my house.

post #261 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post

No, I just want them to be well written. Just like I want for your posts.

 

Carter's had its moment but other than that, absolutely. I'm someone who enjoys The Flash and still recognises that it's garbage. I mean, people realise that shows can actually be better than that, don't they?? The one superhero series I'm looking forward to right now is Daredevil, if only because it's because helmed by the guy who turned trash into an art form with Spartacus.

post #262 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike's Pants View Post
 

I must say I was one of those folks who stubbornly refused to watch Arrow assuming it was a Smallville by way of Chris Nolan's Batman.

When I finally sat down to it I devoured it, for the practical stunts and amazing fight choreography alone it's worth a watch. Also I want Emily Rickards to live in my house, I also want Stephen Amell to live in my house. Also I want John Barrowman to live in my house.

 

Not that big a fan of Arrow as you are. But i have to admit that its fight scenes are first rate. All that Laurel/Oliver/Thea teenage stuff though i can do without.

post #263 of 3585

Stephen Amell is proof that cardboard cut-outs can pursue careers other than standing in shopping aisles or window displays. Sadly, it also means that Arrow will never be shot in 3D. 

post #264 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
 

All that Laurel/Oliver/Thea teenage stuff though i can do without.

That's the stuff that really drags it down to what I thought the program would be. It's pretty insufferable.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post
 

Stephen Amell is proof that cardboard cut-outs can pursue careers other than standing in shopping aisles or window displays. Sadly, it also means that Arrow will never be shot in 3D.

I've something of a man crush of Amell since following him on Facebook. As you have besmirched his good name, I'm afraid I have to offer you execution or trial by combat. You have 24 hours to decide.

post #265 of 3585
Thread Starter 

The basic structure for what's required of a television show is ultimately what hurts television shows from being good. In their respective genres, they all seem to more or less follow the same pattern. Yes, the acting, the cinematography, the special effects has all gotten better with time. At the end of the day, though, the beginning/middle/end of the episode/season haven't evolved all that much from a Scooby Doo or Power Rangers episode: Set up, followed by turmoil, resolved by the ability to overcome. Sometimes this happens in one episode; sometimes a few. But overall it remains the same for the majority of the time. It limits the stories they can tell, only made worse by having to meet a prerequisite in how many episodes they have to churn out.

 

And that's why they suck.

post #266 of 3585

So you hate the majority of movies released as well?  Because the basic three-act structure has been in place since, I don't know, the Greeks.

post #267 of 3585
Thread Starter 

Movies are different because of the time they're allowed to tell their stories. Even if you could get that compressed into a TV show, I wouldn't want you to. Why do I want to see the events of Star Wars played out in 40 minutes, 22-24 times in a season? If they're going to do that, I'd rather they spread the events out across that many episodes. But they don't do that. They can't because the average watcher would get bored by the lack of action or immediate payoff. That's a big way movies separate themselves, because they're allowed to get away with telling unique types of stories in unconventional ways. TV shows aren't that risky; they have to be dumbed down in order to appeal to the widest audience possible.

post #268 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post
 

Movies are different because of the time they're allowed to tell their stories. Even if you could get that compressed into a TV show, I wouldn't want you to. Why do I want to see the events of Star Wars played out in 40 minutes, 22-24 times in a season? If they're going to do that, I'd rather they spread the events out across that many episodes. But they don't do that. They can't because the average watcher would get bored by the lack of action or immediate payoff. That's a big way movies separate themselves, because they're allowed to get away with telling unique types of stories in unconventional ways. TV shows aren't that risky; they have to be dumbed down in order to appeal to the widest audience possible.

 

 

I would point to The Wire as a partial exception to this...of course it's almost unique in terms of quality tv.

post #269 of 3585
Thread Starter 

There are exceptions, of course. But they most definitely aren't the rule, especially when it comes to shows that are outside premium channels. 99% of what's on free and/or basic cable blows.

post #270 of 3585

Sorry Shaun, but don't take it personal when I say that you are completely, 100% full of shit on this.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post
 

The basic structure for what's required of a television show is ultimately what hurts television shows from being good. In their respective genres, they all seem to more or less follow the same pattern. Yes, the acting, the cinematography, the special effects has all gotten better with time. At the end of the day, though, the beginning/middle/end of the episode/season haven't evolved all that much from a Scooby Doo or Power Rangers episode: Set up, followed by turmoil, resolved by the ability to overcome. Sometimes this happens in one episode; sometimes a few. But overall it remains the same for the majority of the time. It limits the stories they can tell, only made worse by having to meet a prerequisite in how many episodes they have to churn out.

 

And that's why they suck.

 

A story having structure does not make it unoriginal.  And as spurn points out, studio filmmaking is if anything more formulaic than TV writing at this point in time.  Playwriting also breaks down into "hack" formula when you address it in terms as sweeping as "you just know the climax is going to right before the end", and it's not a strike against the chef's vision that you can "predict" that he is going to serve the soup before the dessert at each and every meal. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post
 

Movies are different because of the time they're allowed to tell their stories. Even if you could get that compressed into a TV show, I wouldn't want you to. Why do I want to see the events of Star Wars played out in 40 minutes, 22-24 times in a season? If they're going to do that, I'd rather they spread the events out across that many episodes. But they don't do that. They can't because the average watcher would get bored by the lack of action or immediate payoff. That's a big way movies separate themselves, because they're allowed to get away with telling unique types of stories in unconventional ways. TV shows aren't that risky; they have to be dumbed down in order to appeal to the widest audience possible.

 

Have you seen Breaking Bad?  The Wire?  Friday Night Lights?  The Sopranos? Freaks And Geeks? Orange Is The New Black?  Mad Men?  Game Of Thrones? Hannibal?  Girls?  The Shield?  Arrested Development?  True Detective? The Americans? East Bound And Down? House Of Cards? Children's Hospital? Firefly? Deadwood? Portlandia? Battlestar Galactica?  Eagleheart? Boardwalk Empire?  Fargo?

 

I'm assuming that the answer is yes to at least a couple, so do you want to tell me that they feel dumbed down for the wider audience, that they feel afraid of serialization, or they adhere to the same strict formula in how they approach it? Or that (to circle back to the actual thread topic), they are more rote in their structures than superhero movies and/or comics?


Edited by Schwartz - 1/23/15 at 11:53am
post #271 of 3585

That THUD on the back of your head? You just got Schwartz'd, son. 

post #272 of 3585
I have to side with Schwartz here, Shaun. You should have just stuck with calling The Flash a shitty TV show and you would have been okay, but you had to reach for the stars.
post #273 of 3585

Oh, to be clear, I haven't seen either Arrow or The Flash (I chose Agents of SHIELD and Gotham for my 2014 superhero shows, and chose poorly).  I hear good things, but they struggle against my skepticism that the shows could be anything but cheap, formulaic fluff.  But I would lay those concerns more at the feet of the genre than the medium, if you follow me.

post #274 of 3585
Sure. Despite the fact that I don't spend an inordinate amount of time watching television, the medium in and of itself isn't the reason something like Gotham is a piece of shit. You can do a proper version of that show, it's just not happening.
post #275 of 3585

The worst thing about Gotham is that there is about one scene per episode where it actually is the pulpy entertainment having fun with familiar iconography that it wants/needs to be.  And then there's just all this other shite.

post #276 of 3585
Thread Starter 

Schwartz smacking me down can't really occur when I'm obliged to agree with him. Did the comment about premium channel-based shows go over his head? TV has been improving remarkably in a short amount of time, but that doesn't mean the majority of it still isn't garbage. And what isn't garbage may not necessarily be for someone like me.

 

The question at hand was superhero shows and why they were garbage. They're formulaic as hell while being lazily written, attempting to include your typical 3-piece story structure to occur over and over again, episode after episode. This does not make for good storytelling when condensed into 40 minutes. Buffy is a show I love, but it still featured the Scooby Doo creature-of-the-weak with poor f/x and cartoony choreography that could make it a chore to sit through.

post #277 of 3585
How about 55 minutes, 8 times a year, or 82 minutes 3 times a year?

#BritainDoesItBetter
post #278 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post
 

Schwartz smacking me down can't really occur when I'm obliged to agree with him. Did the comment about premium channel-based shows go over his head? TV has been improving remarkably in a short amount of time, but that doesn't mean the majority of it still isn't garbage. And what isn't garbage may not necessarily be for someone like me.

 

The question at hand was superhero shows and why they were garbage. They're formulaic as hell while being lazily written, attempting to include your typical 3-piece story structure to occur over and over again, episode after episode. This does not make for good storytelling when condensed into 40 minutes. Buffy is a show I love, but it still featured the Scooby Doo creature-of-the-weak with poor f/x and cartoony choreography that could make it a chore to sit through.

 

I didn't get into the premium channel thing because I didn't want to go wall o'text, but the problem with that is that you're stacking the deck by pitting network TV against indie film in an originality/innovation contest.  I'm not inclined to disagree that superhero shows are formulaic, but I don't think it's more true of them than it is of superhero comics or features, which is why I say it is a genre issue rather than one specific to the medium of TV.  If you're argument is that there is just no way to effectively condense a proper 3 act story* into 40 minutes, then I don't know.  I could start listing some of the thousands of times I think it has been done well, but what's the point?

 

Buffy is a curious choice of examples for this (as is the assertion that you love it despite being a chore to sit through).  It is a superhero show, and one with a highly defined structure, but I would never call it lazily written, and the episodic monster-of-the-week stories did absolutely build to a grander cumulative narrative over the course of each season; whether you liked the particular seasonal narratives or not, I don't think it's disputable that they were always there.  And it demonstrated a constant willingness, if not outright glee, in subverting and toying with it's established structure.  That show is like Exhibit A in the proofs for why hitting similar basic story beats week after week doesn't have to result in the exact same episode week after week.

 

 

*though the typical network hourlong would actually have 5 "act" structure, but that's sort of skirting the underlying issue

post #279 of 3585
Thread Starter 

The overall theme/narrative over the course of a season can (and has) work(ed), I just wish it wasn't filled with needless action beats every episode. Allow your shows to breathe. They don't need to have mediocre action the majority of the time just so they can keep the plebes' attention span.

post #280 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post
 

The overall theme/narrative over the course of a season can (and has) work(ed), I just wish it wasn't filled with needless action beats every episode. Allow your shows to breathe. They don't need to have mediocre action the majority of the time just so they can keep the plebes' attention span.

 

If it's superhero stories without action beats you're looking for, then I don't know how to end this sentence and here's a picture of a colorful frog

 

CREATOR: gd-jpeg v1.0 (using IJG JPEG v62), quality = 50

post #281 of 3585
Thread Starter 
I want them. I just don't need them every episode for 24 episodes for 8 seasons (especially when they're performed to poorly). I'm a big boy, I can handle grown-ups talking words at one another for long periods of time.
post #282 of 3585

Nothing fosters a spirit of togetherness more than casually speculating as to what the "plebes" would do, say or think.

post #283 of 3585
My thing with SFX action beats on superhero shows is that if you can't afford proper CGI, fight choreography, etc, then you need to find a better, less chintzy work around. However, I also understand that there are industrial expectations to consider and that only so much money and time is allotted for production. I imagine if you get that Game of Thrones reaction, then you maybe get that GoT budget.
post #284 of 3585

If you can't afford to do proper CGI or fight choreography, then just don't have any. Scrap those 20 lousy Arrow action scenes for two or three that look good and have emotional impact. I don't blame the teams - i you only got one or two weeks to come up with a decent fight scene of course it won't look like The Raid.

 

Breaking Bad - The Wire - The Sopranos - Mad Men - Game Of Thrones - Hannibal - The Shield - True Detective - House Of Cards - Deadwood - Boardwalk Empire and Fargo proved that series could be for adults and well written, well directed and well made.

 

Wake me if a superhero show is ever that good. The shows listed are on par with top level movies. Shows like Arrow or Agents of SHIELD aren't even on par with theatrical duds like Taken 3. They are barely comparable to Lundgren / Van Damme dtv stuff in terms of dialogue and story quality, minus having the virtue of a lovable grizzly old action star in the lead, with lousy teen soap schmup added to the mix. And don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining that shows should be more grim and serious. Do a light-hearted comedy show, but only if it's as good as Arrested Development, Community or Parks and Recreation. If they do Black Cat as Two Broke Girls, forget it.

 

Batman TAS was a kids series but boy does it embarrass all writing and directing on current live action series.

post #285 of 3585
Again, I'd say Buffy is still the best live action superhero show by a pretty wide margin.
post #286 of 3585
I don't watch any of these shows at all but just because I'd caught wind of who the villain was, I watched the Ra's al Ghul fight scene on Arrow and that was a better confrontation than I expected. It was pretty cool for what it was. Is that scene a stand-out or is its quality indicative of the show as a whole? It's absolutely the only thing I've seen from the entire show..
post #287 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post

I wish this show was on the CW where it might actually have a chance of being a decent comic book show. This sounds like NCIS with capes, which surely isn't what anyone really wants from a Supergirl show.
But she uses her Super Mind and Super Moxy! She's Super EM-powered!

Who am I kidding, if it's as well-written/charming as Veronica Mars, with occasional capes, I'd watch.

I still havent seen Arrow, SHIELD, Flash, Carter, or Gotham. Been too busy catching up on P&R, Supernatural, Penny Dreadful, Community, etc. Too much tv. My movie time has suffered.
post #288 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

I don't watch any of these shows at all but just because I'd caught wind of who the villain was, I watched the Ra's al Ghul fight scene on Arrow and that was a better confrontation than I expected. It was pretty cool for what it was. Is that scene a stand-out or is its quality indicative of the show as a whole? It's absolutely the only thing I've seen from the entire show..

 

The problem is that for every one good fight scene like that, there's half a dozen CW Angst whining tropes to contend with. Oliver is a kinda unlikeabel and stiff heroes as well (for me).

post #289 of 3585
Just throw this in there as part of the DC universe.

If they get filmed in France you now know what to expect

***NSFW***

http://www.vice.com/read/mural-caused-a-massive-controversy-in-france?utm_source=vicetwitterus
post #290 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bain View Post

Just throw this in there as part of the DC universe.

If they get filmed in France you now know what to expect

http://www.vice.com/read/mural-caused-a-massive-controversy-in-france?utm_source=vicetwitterus

Haha. Yeah, a friend in my class showed me that.

post #291 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Again, I'd say Buffy is still the best live action superhero show by a pretty wide margin.

 

Regardless of which side of the fence you come down on, there isn't a "wide margin" between Buffy and Angel.  For a single episode or season, I'd go with Buffy.  Over the course of the show's run, Angel was more consistently excellent and Buffy fairly uneven by comparison.

post #292 of 3585

Yeah, I was just lumping in AngelBuffy came first so that was what I used.  I happen to like it better too, but as you say it's not a wide gulf.

post #293 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Andy Bain View Post

Just throw this in there as part of the DC universe.

If they get filmed in France you now know what to expect

***NSFW***

http://www.vice.com/read/mural-caused-a-massive-controversy-in-france?utm_source=vicetwitterus

I...I don't... why has that been in a hospital for FOURTEEN YEARS!?
post #294 of 3585

Someone needs to turn that mural into an actual movie. Let's get Gaspar Noe behind the camera, re-cast Monica Bellucci as Wonder Woman, and shoot something that will make Paris Hilton sick every time she thinks of Henry Cavill's O face. 

post #295 of 3585
Thread Starter 
post #296 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike's Pants View Post

I...I don't... why has that been in a hospital for FOURTEEN YEARS!?

That was exactly my thought. 14 years!! Oh, les Francais.
post #297 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shaun H View Post

He hongry.
Has an actor publicly campaigning ever won them a role? Sean Young craziness comes to mind. She REALLY wanted to be in the DCU.
post #298 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post


Has an actor publicly campaigning ever won them a role? Sean Young craziness comes to mind. She REALLY wanted to be in the DCU.

 

Wasn't The Rock campaigning for something in the DCU before getting Black Adam?

post #299 of 3585
Thread Starter 

As did Vin Diesel and Ryan Reynolds.

post #300 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by DARKMITE8 View Post


Has an actor publicly campaigning ever won them a role? Sean Young craziness comes to mind. She REALLY wanted to be in the DCU.


I thought I remember reading Vin Diesel kept bringing up wanting to be cast in a Marvel movie maybe a year before he was cast in GOTG. 

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