CHUD.com Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › The Franchises › DC Cinematic Universe Discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

DC Cinematic Universe Discussion - Page 58

post #2851 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

They should do a Batman movie with Harley as the villain. It would make all the money.

 

Obvious question: is Batman allowed to hit/punch Harley? 

 

Thinkpieces and outrage essays await!

post #2852 of 3585

He hit her in Suicide Squad. The controversy didn't come from that, but the incredibly confusing direction of Ayer filming Batman giving her mouth to mouth being misconstrued as him kissing her.

post #2853 of 3585
He punched her in Suicide Squad! (I think.)

ETA: Bart is fast.
post #2854 of 3585

jinx

post #2855 of 3585

Batman's allowed in that a filmmaker can do whatever they like.

 

But I don't think it's a good idea, going forward.

post #2856 of 3585

Harley getting punched is usually circumvented by her not really being a villain but rather a nuance for Batman until he can get to the Joker. 

 

Her being a straight-up antagonist could get problematic, yeah. See the controversy over Batman pushing her down in the video game Arkham City and strangely smirking about it. I seem to remember Film Crit Hulk getting 10,000 words or something out of that.

post #2857 of 3585
Nevermind
post #2858 of 3585

Yeah, he punched the shit out of her.

 

But the very fact that they share maybe 30 seconds of screentime and that got accidentally sexualized means a movie with her as the main villain would be a cultural landmine. 

 

I welcome the thinkpieces!!!

post #2859 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munson View Post

The dour and sour Apes isn't really a tent pole killer. I'm not sure if I'm writing a post disguised as help for erectile dysfunction but the fact is WW held up better.


The Apes films have been solid performers and critical darlings.  As noted above:  Apes was stronger competition for Spider-Man than either of the films that opened after Wonder Woman, which have been critically panned non-starters or waning franchise films.

post #2860 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

He hit her in Suicide Squad. The controversy didn't come from that, but the incredibly confusing direction of Ayer filming Batman giving her mouth to mouth being misconstrued as him kissing her.

 

He gave her mouth-to-mouth, then she started kissing him, either when she was revived or because she'd been playing possum all along. It was a pretty stock scenario; I don't know how any reasonable person could jump to the conclusion that Bruce picked then to just french the hell out of her.

post #2861 of 3585

I was very baffled by that sequence.  It's a great sequence, but the reaction to it.  The french kissing thing is especially dense of some people.  Also, she's an insane dangerous murderer with a knife, trying to stab him.  You're god damn right Batman is justified to punch her in the face in that scenario.  

post #2862 of 3585

I wasn't confused, but a lot of the world was: http://www.thewrap.com/howd-harley-get-that-phone-12-wtf-moments-in-suicide-squad/

 

"2. Is that kissing or CPR? Batman pulls a motionless Quinn out of the water and immediately puts his mouth to her mouth. A kissing sound is made and it’s not clear at all whether he’s smooching the insane villainess or resuscitating her."

post #2863 of 3585
Well, I would prefer Harley have a bunch of henchmen that she dispatches to physically fight Batman.
post #2864 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post


The Apes films have been solid performers and critical darlings.  As noted above:  Apes was stronger competition for Spider-Man than either of the films that opened after Wonder Woman, which have been critically panned non-starters or waning franchise films.

WW was an action film starring an unknown woman directed by a woman and acting as a psuedo sequel/franchise saver to one of the most critically reviled films released in years. It had a lot more baggage to deal with the Spiderman.
post #2865 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

I wasn't confused, but a lot of the world was: http://www.thewrap.com/howd-harley-get-that-phone-12-wtf-moments-in-suicide-squad/

 

"2. Is that kissing or CPR? Batman pulls a motionless Quinn out of the water and immediately puts his mouth to her mouth. A kissing sound is made and it’s not clear at all whether he’s smooching the insane villainess or resuscitating her."

He checked her pulse.  It's pretty clear.

 

You could have always done what happens 90 percent of the time when Batman encounters Harley.  She charges him with a bunch of flips and athletic movement and then Batman just side steps out of the way and she ends up falling on her ass and essentially knocking herself out.  It's a good joke that fits her character and it avoids the issue of a man hitting a woman.

post #2866 of 3585
How could you tell what was happening in Suicide Squad? The movie looks like it was shot through a dirty windshield.
post #2867 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munson View Post


WW was an action film starring an unknown woman directed by a woman and acting as a psuedo sequel/franchise saver to one of the most critically reviled films released in years. It had a lot more baggage to deal with the Spiderman.


You mean aside from the "second reboot in ten years after a failed attempt with the ASM movies" baggage?

post #2868 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

How could you tell what was happening in Suicide Squad? The movie looks like it was shot through a dirty windshield.

I sort of liked it at the time!  Extremely bottomed out expectations.  

post #2869 of 3585

Let's just give the Joker a male henchman who's, like, a midget. Still, it'll be okay for Batman to punch him cuz he has a penis.

post #2870 of 3585

I think we've hit on why there hasn't been a female Sith or female Marvel villain until now with Hela.

post #2871 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

I think we've hit on why there hasn't been a female Sith or female Marvel villain until now with Hela.


Nebula in GotG, but like Nebula and Gamora, I bet the climactic battle with Hela ends with Valkyrie doing most of the physical fighting with Hela.

post #2872 of 3585

Yep. And Nebula is about as de-sexualized as possible.

 

Especially considering what Karen Gillan really looks like, hi-yooooooooooooo

post #2873 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post


You mean aside from the "second reboot in ten years after a failed attempt with the ASM movies" baggage?

BvS or Amazing Spiderman, pick your poisonous baggage.

Harley getting hit... I dunno it's like fighting game logic, I don't really think about it if I'm beating down Sonya in MK or something. Isn't it implied that Harley is just comic book logic tougher?
post #2874 of 3585

Yes.

 

But you just can't have a man physically fighting a woman.  No matter how many ways you justify it and make her super powered or whatever.  It's the image that people won't be able to get past, possibly justified.  Remember Rose McGowan being pissed about J-Lo being choked on a billboard by Apocalypse?  

post #2875 of 3585
Jennifer Lopez was in Apocalypse?
post #2876 of 3585

How does Wonder Woman handle this? I haven't seen the movie.

post #2877 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

 

  Remember Rose McGowan being pissed about J-Lo being choked on a billboard by Apocalypse?  

 

What?  No, I do not.

 

Calling Harley "A List" seems really off to me.  For one she's at least a psuedo-villain, but mostly I think the A List is very limited, to the point where most of Marvel's solo headliners are still B list.  It's basically Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spiderman, the Hulk, and probably Wolverine and Iron Man nowadays.  Harley may have a big cosplay following, but even putting her on the B List with Captain America and Thor seems like a stretch after one feature appearance.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

How does Wonder Woman handle this? I haven't seen the movie.

 

She's invincible, and besides only bad guys are swinging at her.

post #2878 of 3585

Nebula in Guardians 1? 

 

ehhhh

 

Nebula in Guardians 2?

 

worked  for me. 

post #2879 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

How does Wonder Woman handle this? I haven't seen the movie.


The only males that attack her physically are explicitly bad guys.  And one of them really just kind of throws all kinds of stuff at her rather than punching her.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

 

What?  No, I do not.

 

Calling Harley "A List" seems really off to me.  For one she's at least a psuedo-villain, but mostly I think the A List is very limited, to the point where most of Marvel's solo headliners are still B list.  It's basically Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Spiderman, the Hulk, and probably Wolverine and Iron Man nowadays.  Harley may have a big cosplay following, but even putting her on the B List with Captain America and Thor seems like a stretch after one feature appearance.

 

 

There's a weird grey area in terms of "Lists/Tiers" when it comes to characters that derive from other popular characters.  For example: Robin is about as well-known as Batman.  Is Robin an A-List superhero?  Or is (s)he downgraded because he's a sidekick?  In Harley's case, she derives from the Joker, arguably the most "A-list" villain in comic-dom.  People call Wonder Woman the most well-recognized female superhero in the world, but arguably Batgirl (especially) and Supergirl (maybe) are breathing down her neck despite being distaff counterparts to A-List main heroes.

 

Point being...it's not entirely clear-cut.

post #2880 of 3585

This is indeed a Pandora's box.

 

Call me a perv, but every time there's any kind of physical confrontation between a man and a woman in a movie that gets hands-on, it somehow is fetishized by the filmmaker. I'm thinking of Landa choking Bridget to death in Inglorious Basterds, and a similar scene between David and Anna in The Guest (just watched that recently).

post #2881 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

Jennifer Lopez was in Apocalypse?

What's her initials?  Jilly o?  Jaw?  Jlawzizzle?

 

Black Widow fights men left and right in Marvel films, even good guys like Hawk guy multiple times and nobody has ever complained about it.

 

People are weird.  

post #2882 of 3585

This is actually one of the smarter omissions Fincher made in adapting Gone Girl - the book ends with Amy provoking Nick to choke her, and I think Fincher realized how sexualized that can become. 

 

Good point, Bort.

post #2883 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
 

What's her initials?  Jilly o?  Jaw?  Jlawzizzle?

 

Black Widow fights men left and right in Marvel films, even good guys like Hawk guy multiple times and nobody has ever complained about it.

 

People are weird.  

 

Counterpoint - Marbel Cinnamon (and Wonder Woman as well) make it clear through characterization and scene-setting - the first time we meet BW she's laying Happy out - that when it comes to hand to hand combat, they're evenly matched to their male counterparts.

 

There is, and has always been, a power differential between HQ and Bamman. 

post #2884 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

 

Counterpoint - Marbel Cinnamon (and Wonder Woman as well) make it clear through characterization and scene-setting - the first time we meet BW she's laying Happy out - that when it comes to hand to hand combat, they're evenly matched to their male counterparts.

 

There is, and has always been, a power differential between HQ and Bamman. 

Reinforcing my point, that scene is intercut with Tony and Pepper checking out Black Widow in a lingerie spread (because that just had to be her cover story), and her taking Happy down is followed by Tony's "I want one." The whole scene is framed as titillating. 

post #2885 of 3585

Yeah...  But she tried to cut his throat with a big sharp shard of glass whilst underwater.

post #2886 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

Reinforcing my point, that scene is intercut with Tony and Pepper checking out Black Widow in a lingerie spread (because that just had to be her cover story), and her taking Happy down is followed by Tony's "I want one." The whole scene is framed as titillating. 

 

Yes, although I suppose it's all in the execution - the whole idea of combat as flirtation/titilation is as old as recorded time, so I don't have a problem with the notion, just the way choices are made around it.

 

Man, I'd forgotten that whole scene from IM2. 

post #2887 of 3585
What if Robin punches Harley?
post #2888 of 3585

Female Robin?

post #2889 of 3585

Appropriate:

 

post #2890 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
 

Yes.

 

But you just can't have a man physically fighting a woman.  No matter how many ways you justify it and make her super powered or whatever.  It's the image that people won't be able to get past, possibly justified.  Remember Rose McGowan being pissed about J-Lo being choked on a billboard by Apocalypse?  

Buffy Summers had the shit kicked out of her for seven seasons. 

post #2891 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
I'm thinking of Landa choking Bridget to death in Inglorious Basterds

 

Well, that scene starts with Landa indulging in QT's well known fetish, so no wonder you detect a sexual element to it.

 

And I wouldn't be at all surprised if Landa's sexual preferences leaned heavily into domination and choking. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
Man, I'd forgotten that whole scene from IM2. 

 

The more you forget about IM2, the happier you'll be.

post #2892 of 3585
I read Man of Steel the other day and Superman knocks out a female burglar with a super flick. Is that ok?
post #2893 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

 

Yes, although I suppose it's all in the execution - the whole idea of combat as flirtation/titilation is as old as recorded time, so I don't have a problem with the notion, just the way choices are made around it.

 

Man, I'd forgotten that whole scene from IM2. 

Yeah, see, the idea of a woman fighting a man is not inherently sexual. It's been done, and will be done again. But for whatever reason (not always, but a lot), it often ends up either being framed as A, a potential sexual assault on the woman or B, the man is overpowered and enjoys it. 

 

For A, I'm thinking James Gandolfini's attack on Patricia Arquette in True Romance. It's not specifically a rape, but Tony Scott films it just like one.

 

For B, I'm thinking just about any time a man gets beat up by a woman. See Ronda Rousey beating up that dude in the Entourage movie (I didn't see it, but it sure got played up in the previews). 

post #2894 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post
 

Buffy Summers had the shit kicked out of her for seven seasons. 

That was AGES ago. This is the more hyper progressive by the second 2017.  

post #2895 of 3585

And Buffy ends up fucking her worst enemy throughout the entire sixth season after they beat each other up. 

 

This is after the entire second season is about how a boyfriend goes bad after you have sex. 

 

And the fifth season when Dracula seduces Buffy, then they fight. 

post #2896 of 3585
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

And Buffy ends up fucking her worst enemy throughout the entire sixth season after they beat each other up. 

 

This is after the entire second season is about how a boyfriend goes bad after you have sex. 

 

And the fifth season when Dracula seduces Buffy, then they fight. 

 

 

Aweful.

post #2897 of 3585

Not sure where you're going with that, Bart.

post #2898 of 3585

I think he's saying maybe fucking Buffy is a bad idea.

post #2899 of 3585

I makea da plain english:

 

When men tell stories about women fighting men, it's almost unavoidable that it gets sexualized. 

post #2900 of 3585

I wasn't saying that male-female combat is inherently sexual, and as Bort points out, it doesn't have to be. I was more arguing that I don't have a problem with the "combat as flirtation trope" either.

 

I am probably one of the few people who paid to see ENTOURAGE* in the theater, and that scene with Turtle is played towards his emasculation, which he then has to recover from by wooing Rousey. It's a fucked up movie.

 

*It was a long, hot, unemployed summer. 

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: The Franchises
CHUD.com Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › The Franchises › DC Cinematic Universe Discussion