CHUD.com Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › Films in Release or On Video › INTERSTELLAR (An Observation By Christopher Nolan) Post-release Discussion
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

INTERSTELLAR (An Observation By Christopher Nolan) Post-release Discussion - Page 24

post #1151 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
 

 

 but there are couple of interesting readings that I think certain people might be too politically arrogant to accept as open questions posed by the films (like that one YouTube guy that nooj likes).

eyyyy, I just linked a couple of his videos

 

BART is the one who's in LOOOOOOVE with him!

post #1152 of 1191
I wouldn't kick him out of bed.
post #1153 of 1191

No joke, but I think Nolan constantly playing with the idea that certain lies help preserve greater "truths" are why certain Conservatives think those movies are major Rightwing manifestos and certain liberals have aneurysms over the ambiguity and lean towards accusing Nolan of being a fascist, even though there is ample evidence in each film that neither group is correct.*

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*I would argue that since Nolan is a Democrat, it's fair to read the ambiguities as a criticism of what Batman does whilst still maintaining the audience's sympathy and trust in the main character of a superhero tentpole film. Of course, our polarized politics being filled with Manichean bullshit makes it difficult for anyone to want to hear that at all. 

post #1154 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

I wouldn't kick him out of bed.

Image may contain: 1 person, eyeglasses, beard and closeup

post #1155 of 1191

Are you...shaming him, nooj? 

post #1156 of 1191

no, just sharing a photo I captured of him for bart on facebook!  (edit: just realized that I'm not sure if you're asking if I'm shaming bart or the youtube guy!)

 

I capture funny faces from everything!

 

Image may contain: one or more people and closeup

 Image may contain: 1 person, closeup

 

 

 

I only long to shame barry


Edited by mcnooj82 - 1/15/17 at 3:39pm
post #1157 of 1191
Do the thing where you turn his eyes into his mouth.

So hot.
post #1158 of 1191

Having watched this again, it remains a very powerful emotional experience.  It takes some cues from 2001, but does not share that film's sterile tone (and I don't mean sterile as an insult).

 

One thing that knocks the film down a peg or two for me is Dr. Mann.  Specifically his reasoning and motivation.  Apparently he was the greatest and bravest Astronaut of all times, everyone followed his lead to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of humanity... yet he sends out a beacon for the crew to come to his planet under false pretenses... his world was uninhabitable, so what he wanted was saving.  Yet that's apparently not all he wants because he tries to kill Cooper.

 

For me his motivations don't make sense based on what we know about him (via the other characters).  When Mann and Cooper are out hiking, Mann says he never considered the possibility that his world wasn't going to be the one fit for humanity.  Which makes literally no sense from a guy who is an objective, rational scientist who gladly threw himself into the unknown to save humanity.  We even see this cold rationality in the scene were Cooper and Brand find out her father lied and never intended to save the people of earth (where Mann defends he father's actions in a very astute way).  So how did this same guy who is a super intelligent, logical and rational man believing something only a child would?  He had to know his world being the one was a longshot, since they didn't know much about the systems before they left.  It doesn't make sense to me.  Does he have space dementia?  

 

Here's where things really stop making sense for me...  Mann tries to kill Cooper saying he can't let Cooper take the ship because they'll need it complete the mission.  But why try to kill Cooper on this basis?  Why not tell them the truth about the planet being a dead rock, which would automatically make plan B the only viable option?  Surely the others would see this and continue their mission by carrying out the last viable plan for saving the species?  The only reason Cooper was taking the ship was to go back to earth to let them know they have a viable planet... if Cooper knew this wasn't true, he would never left in the first place.

 

Then Mann says once the others realize what the planet is, they won't be able to survive.  Okay, so why the elaborate lie?  Why not just tell everybody the truth from the get go and they can all save humanity together which is what Mann apparently wants, and no one has to die?  

 

Then Mann says he sent the beacon so somebody would come save him.  Okay, fine, seems reasonable that he might get cold feet at the prospect of dying alone.  But again, once he is saved, why not just tell the others the truth about the planet so they can save humanity, which is what Mann wanted all along besides being a little lonely?  Everybody wins.  

 

Then Mann escapes and tried to dock with the main craft in orbit, saying he's taking command of the mission.  Again, things based on him trying to kill Cooper because Cooper would've taken the ship based on information Mann could've easily cleared up for him by telling the truth.  Cooper knowing the people of earth had no chance, wouldn't have taken the ship needed to complete the mission and save humanity.  

 

Maybe his pride was so great he didn't want be seen as a coward, and he cooked up the lie to save face.  Sort of makes sense right?  Wrong.  Mann says once the others find out the planet was uninhabitable, blah blah blah... he admits he knows they would find out anyway, so his pride was going to be dented no matter what.  So, why kill another man for no reason?  I can see MAYBE Mann trying to kill Cooper once Cooper found out they were on a dead rock and said "fuck that, I'm going to see my kids anyway"... but Mann never even gives him that option.  

 

Mann's reasoning completely fails to make any sense to me.  I'd be happy to be proven wrong on this if someone has another explanation (that is evidenced in the film and not just scattershot reasoning).  I'll say it again... Mann's character is established pretty early on as the bravest of them all, and later we see Mann being extremely level headed and rational in his defense of Brand's father, yet a few minutes later he does something any idiot would see wasn't necessary.  Characters acting irrationally is fine when they are emotionally compromised (and I'd argue someone as smart as Mann would be immune to this), but Mann was saved.  He was not in distress.  He knew the parameters of his mission and that the only option was plan B.  Okay, so he lied... I can kind of buy that, maybe, but what's easier when he and Cooper are standing on the ridge... coming clean and saying he made a mistake and seeing how Cooper reacts so he can make a decision from there, or trying to kill another human being?  The latter seems a ridiculous excursion for a man who's never done it before.

 

It's a very muddled third act complication that sinks the movie for me.  


Edited by Ambler - 1/31/17 at 5:37am
post #1159 of 1191

I also forgot to mention Mann sets an explosive booby trap in the other robot.  Which means he was always planning to kill anyone who tried to access data from it.  Which means he had no intention of telling anyone the planet was uninhabitable.  But he was going to need others to complete the mission, so why kill?  At that point he didn't even know Cooper was with them, or that he would try to take the ship.  Mann is kind of a moronic creation from a writing standpoint. 

post #1160 of 1191

The whole second half of the film is filled with moments which make no sense after a couple of minutes' thought. It's propulsive on a scene-by-scene basis, but after a while the scenes become ridiculous. The Mann stuff is a perfect example. Matt Damon may as well have emerged from suspended animation, looked directly into the camera and said "Hi, I'm a plot complication!" I feel like one more script rewrite and this would have been one for the ages. Nolan tries to cross-cut to build up the tension, but each time it cut back to earth, I didn't care. Especially glaring for me is the use of Affleck and Topher Grace. It feels like there's an extra hour of stuff involving them which had to be cut out. It's weird to see a 3-hour movie and feel like it was rushed, but the movie feels like a 160-minute cut of a six-hour film.

I'd like this movie a thousand times better if someone, anyone had said "UGH, again with the corn?!?!"

post #1161 of 1191
I similarly mused about Mann's motives upthread, and the only thing I could come up with was that he feared being marooned by a vindictive crew after he told them they'd been played.
post #1162 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by FatherDude View Post

I similarly mused about Mann's motives upthread, and the only thing I could come up with was that he feared being marooned by a vindictive crew after he told them they'd been played.

 

Right, I get where you're coming from.  But this is speculation based on things that aren't in the film.  The only thing we know about Mann before he goes on a crazy kill rampage is that he is extremely brave and rational.  So this goes against the very foundation of who the character is.  Last minute betrayals are fine if there is some form of breadcrumb development to lead us there.  There is no such thing in the movie since Mann is only introduced moments before going psycho.  For instance in the Matrix, Cypher betrays the others because their lives in the real world are miserable.  And he is presented as a man who seems to have little empathy.  The betrayal doesn't come out nowhere like it does here.

 

This is the problem of using the film's results to explain the reasoning behind them.  The reasoning is to have a bunch of action, explosions and cross cutting.  The motivation doesn't come from character it comes from the filmmaker needing exciting stuff to happen and shoving that necessity down a character's throat.  So Mann becomes a plot device rather than a human being with an inner life of cognition and reasoning.  There's no point in even trying to figure it out because there's nothing to figure out.  He's not even a character.  He has no motivation other than to serve the mechanics of action filmmaking.  It's shockingly bad storytelling from a filmmaker who is supposed to be one of the "greats".  He had a considerable level of control over the project, so there was no reason they couldn't do another script pass and get it right.  And really, this does seem to be a Nolan-ism based on some of his other films post Memento.  

post #1163 of 1191

I don't disagree with anything you said Ambler. 

 

I think the point was more allegorical. Being Dr. 'Man' and his being referred to as 'the best of us' is used to illustrate that without connections and obligations to others that ultimately we are weak and selfish creatures. 

 

The reasoning was slipshod as you noted. But perhaps he thought that if he killed McConaghy, then he could convince Hathaway to forgive him, given that she was already in love with him. 'baby, I did it for us' or some such nonsense. 

post #1164 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3nnui View Post

 

I think the point was more allegorical. Being Dr. 'Man' and his being referred to as 'the best of us' is used to illustrate that without connections and obligations to others that ultimately we are weak and selfish creatures. 

 

The reasoning was slipshod as you noted. But perhaps he thought that if he killed McConaghy, then he could convince Hathaway to forgive him, given that she was already in love with him. 'baby, I did it for us' or some such nonsense. 

 

Dr. Mann actually says the opposite.  That these connections are what make people selfish, since his point was that they never would've gone on the mission unless they knew they could save the people of earth (the reason Brand's father lied about plan A).  That letting the people of earth die so a few embryos could repopulate the species was not enough motivation.  

 

I don't have a problem with Mann's philosophical musings being weaved into the plot for momentum.  The problem is there appears to be little connection between what he says and what he ends up doing.

 

And Brand was in love with Wolf Edmunds, not Dr. Mann.  But I don't blame you for that gaffe since the film is kind of muddled mess in spots.

post #1165 of 1191
Maybe it's been a long time, but I thought the reason why Mann went apeshit was because everyone found out the good doctor had lied about their chances, and so they decided to pack it up without enacting plan B or even considering the other planets. Mann knows that the planet is not inhabitable, but lies to gain control over the ship and complete the mission they don't want to complete.

But then Dr. Mann comes across as a man constantly confused. He sets a beacon off and goes to sleep because he's ultimately lonely. He couldn't be right in the head here. All of his actions from then on are one of desperation and a lack of control.
post #1166 of 1191

I believe Mann and Cooper are out taking a walk (Mann was going to show Cooper further down closer to the planet surface where it's habitable... not!), while the rest are back at base and planning to access the decomissioned robot to extract intel from it. I remember it intercutting so that Mann attacks Cooper right as the booby-trapped robot explodes. There's no knowledge prior to this of Mann's lie.

post #1167 of 1191
I can sort of see Mann's delima if you look at from the point after everyone receives the news about Dr. Brand. Cooper and female Dr. Brand completely disagree with him about old man Brand's reasoning. In as much, I'm sure in Mann's desperate mind that looked like a huge ass problem for the mission which requires dedication to the point of becoming Brand's lackey.
post #1168 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

Maybe it's been a long time, but I thought the reason why Mann went apeshit was because everyone found out the good doctor had lied about their chances, and so they decided to pack it up without enacting plan B or even considering the other planets. Mann knows that the planet is not inhabitable, but lies to gain control over the ship and complete the mission they don't want to complete.

 

Yeah, that's not what happened.

post #1169 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

I can sort of see Mann's delima if you look at from the point after everyone receives the news about Dr. Brand. Cooper and female Dr. Brand completely disagree with him about old man Brand's reasoning. In as much, I'm sure in Mann's desperate mind that looked like a huge ass problem for the mission which requires dedication to the point of becoming Brand's lackey.

 

The problem is Mann lied before any of this happened.  So that had nothing to do with his decision making.  He was planning all this before they even got there.  Remember, he booby trapped the decomissioned robot.

post #1170 of 1191

Don't try to make sense of it because it doesn't make sense.  You'll get space dementia.

 

df21112c-c0cd-4546-9f48-f8bfdb88b42c.jpg?impolicy=desktop

post #1171 of 1191
You mean because he's gone crazy? The movie doesn't make bones about that. Remember, Dr. Mann, the best of us, attempted to board the ship when it wasn't even locked properly.
post #1172 of 1191
ohohoho now you all see what nonsense this movie is!

such fake contrived propulsion!

I still like the good stuff though

mann has always made me laugh
post #1173 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

You mean because he's gone crazy? The movie doesn't make bones about that. Remember, Dr. Mann, the best of us, attempted to board the ship when it wasn't even locked properly.

 

See there you go, trying to make sense of it!  He's not crazy, he's a coward, as was stated in the movie.  He's Nolan's puppet for mindless spectacle.  An unfilled cinematic vase of action porn.  The twinkie with all the filling and no outer... ah, nevermind.

post #1174 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

ohohoho now you all see what nonsense this movie is!

such fake contrived propulsion!

I still like the good stuff though

mann has always made me laugh

 

That was a glaring problem for most people from the beginning.  I actually think the rest of the movie makes up for it out of sheer emotional impact and cinematic grandeur.  I would've given it a perfect 10 if not for the third act nonsense.  

post #1175 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

See there you go, trying to make sense of it!  He's not crazy, he's a coward, as was stated in the movie.  He's Nolan's puppet for mindless spectacle.  An unfilled cinematic vase of action porn.  The twinkie with all the filling and no outer... ah, nevermind.

Did you miss the whole scene where he's killing Cooper and talking to him and himself in an attempt to rationalize irrationality? He's insane. We can talk all day about the sense of the writing, but you can't just ignore what's already there.
post #1176 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

Did you miss the whole scene where he's killing Cooper and talking to him and himself in an attempt to rationalize irrationality? He's insane. We can talk all day about the sense of the writing, but you can't just ignore what's already there.

 

If he's insane (which I don't agree with, but fine), I'm not sure why you were trying to make sense of his actions earlier.  It's only reason I responded.  

post #1177 of 1191

I always thought he had gone crazy. Like cabin fever crazy.

post #1178 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dalyn View Post
 

I always thought he had gone crazy. Like cabin fever crazy.

 

And apparently still wanted to complete the mission...

post #1179 of 1191
Because even craziness has its own sense of internal logic. I'm not calling Mann insane like someone on the streets who talks to nobody in thin air and whose actions are completely unpredictable. I'm saying his mind isn't straight. It's skewed from Dr Brand's constant rhetoric. Yes, he's cowardly. But you can't say he's got his ducks lined up either.

As for why I'm arguing it... well, maybe because I thought there was a way to see Mann's side of things.
post #1180 of 1191
Mann probably went insane from having to listen to Caine recite that goddamned poem constantly
post #1181 of 1191

I think Mann isn't anything.  He's a very weak plot device.  You can have characters go crazy in movies when it's presented organically by the plot.  Such as Kurtz in Apocalypse Now or Jack in Fight Club or Jack in The Shining.  In Interstellar, Mann just starts doing nonsensical things without any setup, because bad stuff needs to happen because... mobie.  

 

People are calling him crazy because they're confused and it's the only way to explain why the movie is so dumb at that point.  Nobody was doing that with Apocalypse Now or Fight Club or The Shining.  It wasn't necessary because the mania of those characters is clearly developed and makes sense.  But you have Mann, who is presented as one thing, but then starts doing the exact opposite because stuff needs to get exciting.  

 

So while Mann being crazy might be a plausible scenario (which I still don't agree with) to explain the stupidity, it's missing the point... the point being the character is badly written, so his motivation ends up not mattering much.

post #1182 of 1191

It's not even that difficult to fix.  You could've had them pick up some video signals as they came through the wormhole.  They're from Mann who was sending them out in hopes of them getting through the wormhole but couldn't because [insert scientific plot reason].  In the messages they see Mann slowly deteriorate over the years, to the point where his nusto actions later don't come out of left field.  It could've taken up no more than a few minutes screen time and barely cost anything.

post #1183 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

 

People are calling him crazy because they're confused and it's the only way to explain why the movie is so dumb at that point.  Nobody was doing that with Apocalypse Now or Fight Club or The Shining.  It wasn't necessary because the mania of those characters is clearly developed and makes sense.  But you have Mann, who is presented as one thing, but then starts doing the exact opposite because stuff needs to get exciting.  

 

 

Okay, McWeenie, I get it.  I'm watching it wrong.  Sheesh, lay off!

post #1184 of 1191
it's funny because the moment I saw Damon pop out of hibernation and weep, I laughed and thought, "ohhhh noooo, here comes the obligatory conflict generating machiiiine..."
post #1185 of 1191
I have an easier time with Dr. Mann than I do with whatever is supposed to be going on with Casey Affleck.
post #1186 of 1191

I mean, every character is a conflict generator to some extent.  That's not a bad thing in itself.  It's just whether it's executed well or not.

post #1187 of 1191
since it's a Nolan movie, everyone is operating as symbols and metaphors as opposed to being characters.

Casey Affleck's character only makes sense as a symbol. OF THE DIIIIIRT

And sure, every character has a bit of conflict generating to do, but I usually don't see a piece of surprise casting showing up at that point in the movie and go, "oh... I know where this is heading...". Of course, that's not a bad thing in itself. But as it continued to develop...

I don't think I knew that Damon was in the movie at the time.
post #1188 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

since it's a Nolan movie, everyone is operating as symbols and metaphors as opposed to being characters.

Casey Affleck's character only makes sense as a symbol. OF THE DIIIIIRT

And sure, every character has a bit of conflict generating to do, but I usually don't see a piece of surprise casting showing up at that point in the movie and go, "oh... I know where this is heading...". Of course, that's not a bad thing in itself. But as it continued to develop...

I don't think I knew that Damon was in the movie at the time.


There was a report he might be in it back when it was filming, but he wasn't on any cast lists until word leaked from the premiere IIRC. They tried to keep it a surprise.

 

EDIT: Yeah, looking back at it, it was a surprise until pretty much the last minute. Shit, even on the first page here we refer to him as a surprise guest star.

post #1189 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

since it's a Nolan movie, everyone is operating as symbols and metaphors as opposed to being characters.

Casey Affleck's character only makes sense as a symbol. OF THE DIIIIIRT

And sure, every character has a bit of conflict generating to do, but I usually don't see a piece of surprise casting showing up at that point in the movie and go, "oh... I know where this is heading...". Of course, that's not a bad thing in itself. But as it continued to develop...

I don't think I knew that Damon was in the movie at the time.

 

Sure, I'm just saying that as far as predictions go, "oh, I bet this will introduce some conflict!" is going to hit the side of the barn about 90% of the time.  You gotta come more specific to impress me!

 

 

 

Damon's appearance was a total surprise for me.  But I try to go in to movies as ignorant as possible, so maybe I didn't even know Michael Caine was in it either.

post #1190 of 1191

How about "Here comes a self-contained go-nowhere subplot to pad out the middle of the movie. Time for a bathroom break!"

post #1191 of 1191
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 

 

 You gotta come more specific to impress me!

 

 

ew gross

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Films in Release or On Video
CHUD.com Community › Forums › SPECIFIC FILMS › Films in Release or On Video › INTERSTELLAR (An Observation By Christopher Nolan) Post-release Discussion