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Suicide Squad pre-release discussion thread - Page 45

post #2201 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bill View Post
 

The mythology has been run into the ground, each week Agents of Shield plays around in the same playground and fans get more exposition than they ever wanted or can handle about the McGuffins from the films.

 

There can never be a payoff now because just like Lost they are making it up as they go and they have a financial incentive to keep the franchises going forever, recasting leads when they can't afford to re-hire the actors or they want out, and they will inevitably fall into the same traps that the comic books themselves created and fell into.

 

 

I'm sorry Bill but I disagree with nearly all of that.

 

I've watched every episode of Agents Of SHIELD and, aside from one episode every season where Coulson will make out he lent a weapon or vehicle for someone to use in a movie, they don't "get more exposition than (the fans) ever wanted or can handle about the McGuffins from the films". I'm pretty sure the show has never mentioned Thanos, the gauntlet or the gems which are the main elements of the overaching storyline. At most, they've fleshed out the aliens involved in The Avengers and that's it.

 

I'm also not sure you can make something up as you go along if you're following comic book storylines that have been in place for decades.

 

I also don't think "alien wants gems for his gauntlet" is overly-complicated as a storyline but maybe that's just me.

post #2202 of 2785

I also think the better TV comparison is the Netflix Marvel series. Not only are they just better in quality than Agents of SHIELD, but there's the promise of building toward The Defenders.

 

People like things like the Hand's hole in the ground or the secret organization that created Nuke. They like when Carrie-Anne Moss shows up on Daredevil or Rosario Dawson pops up on Jessica Jones. 

post #2203 of 2785

That's fair (MrSaxon).

 

I can see Bartleby's point about momentum, I just don't think that alone is what brings people back to these films.

 

The mythology does help to flesh out the world, but the only aspect I was interested in exploring was the world of Guardians of the Galaxy.

 

As far as building to a payoff in the MCU, there can never be one if they can't risk these killing-off the big characters or at least putting them in real threat which would necessitate changing the formula.

 

As far as my Shield comment, I think I was referring more to all the Inhumans stuff, which up until they shelved the planned movie, Agents of Shield was doing all the legwork. Also, that stuff about the Avengers aliens they did which you mentioned -- also didn't Sif from Thor show up?

 

Wasn't the whole Winter Soldier Shield stuff referenced on the show but the show wasn't referenced in the movie? Wasn't that a mini-controversy among fans of the show?

 

I guess TV shows have to be complex to a point, or there wouldn't really be a show -- I don't really have beef with Agents of Shield. I've probably on seen a seasons-worth of episodes spread out over the course of its run.

post #2204 of 2785

It's not the sole thing that puts people into the seats. That can be chalked up to a few alchemical things that are hard to define like quality and delightfulness. 

 

But what defines a successful shared universe, not a successful movie, is my double MMs. 

 

For instance, Reservoir Dogs. Great movie. Pulp Fiction. Great movie. When you find out about the Vega brothers, or the Alabama mentioned is in True Romance, or the movie producer in True Romance may be the grandson of Donnie from Inglorious Basterds, that's amazing. But those are just Easter Eggs, and can't really constitute a shared universe (especially with a lot of the same actors playing multiple roles, same problem with Kevin Smith's View Askew-verse). 

 

But what COULD make it a shared universe is if there was a drive toward something. Like if we learned Django and The Bride had been looking for the briefcase full of glowing light. 

 

But even then I think you can only really have a shared universe if you intended it that way all along. That goes back to my argument a while ago that it's just not in DC's DNA, in any form, because they weren't conceived as sharing a world. Marvel, on the other hand, has Namor and the Human Torch fighting in one of their earliest issues, and Amazing Spider-Man #1 with the Fantastic Four on the cover, and Stan Lee scrambling to bring Captain America back to life in Avengers #4. It was always meant that way, so the groundwork has been lain. 

post #2205 of 2785

Good News: There are several positive early reviews coming out.

Bad News: They're on YouTube.

post #2206 of 2785
Bill is right: it's mostly the reason why I never really bought into the shared universe. It's so transparently just an excuse to justify sequels and prequels instead of building in anyway these characters or narrative (with the exception of Rogers and (maybe) Stark)

its true of the comics, but long-form storytelling works better in comic books.
post #2207 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

But what COULD make it a shared universe is if there was a drive toward something. Like if we learned Django and The Bride had been looking for the briefcase full of glowing light. 

Gawd. I hope QT is having his vitamins, because that's something a studio comittee would greenlight in a heartbeat if he'd drop dead or lose his sanity.
post #2208 of 2785

Bartleby, you define "Shared Universe" exclusively in terms of what Marvel is doing. 

 

All "Shared Universe" means is characters from one fictional world co-exist with another. 

So yeah Freddy Vs Jason is a "Shared Universe", in that it's a world where two such supernatural beings coexist and can meet. 

 

I always go back to the Toho Kaiju films of the 1950's and 1960's. They were not originally intended to be a Shared Universe, but after several team ups, and declining ticket sales, the Toho guys said "hey, let's retired this world, but do it in style!". 


Thus, Destroy All Monsters. 

 

Which was successful enough that Godzilla at least was soon drafted back out of retirement. 

 

I think DC could have succeeded (and who knows, may still succeed) with their own Shared Universe by skipping the build up that Marvel did, because Marvel already did it. Audiences (I think) are willing to go with a pre-existing Shared Universe now, and I doubt they'd be into watching 10-12 "lead up" movies for a franchise now that Marvels' done it. 

post #2209 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
 

Bartleby, you define "Shared Universe" exclusively in terms of what Marvel is doing. 

 

All "Shared Universe" means is characters from one fictional world co-exist with another. 

So yeah Freddy Vs Jason is a "Shared Universe", in that it's a world where two such supernatural beings coexist and can meet. 

 

I always go back to the Toho Kaiju films of the 1950's and 1960's. They were not originally intended to be a Shared Universe, but after several team ups, and declining ticket sales, the Toho guys said "hey, let's retired this world, but do it in style!". 


Thus, Destroy All Monsters. 

 

Which was successful enough that Godzilla at least was soon drafted back out of retirement. 

 

I think DC could have succeeded (and who knows, may still succeed) with their own Shared Universe by skipping the build up that Marvel did, because Marvel already did it. Audiences (I think) are willing to go with a pre-existing Shared Universe now, and I doubt they'd be into watching 10-12 "lead up" movies for a franchise now that Marvels' done it. 

I do because Marvel is the most successful modern example.

 

But you do make a good point about the Kaiju movies, although I would chalk that up to a third parameter: quantity creating scope. That's why I called FvJ and AvP just crossovers. The irony is by having these characters or creatures meet just once or a few times, you've actually made their universe very small. The Toho Kaiju movies through sheer quantity forced a shared universe into existence.

 

Now I'm no expert on Godzilla, but I'm betting the Toho movies' continuity doesn't hold up under a magnifying glass. And that's okay! But Marvel, taking a lead from Harry Potter, Saw and Lost, claiming they have things mapped out and air tight (this isn't necessarily what audiences really want, just what they think they want), has the illusion of a plan. 

 

Even though what's going on with Inhumans and Avengers 4, and the additions of Spider-Man and Antman and the Wasp, show an adaptability on the fly, the illusion of planning gives them confidence and the audience confidence in the brand.

post #2210 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

I do because Marvel is the most successful modern example.

 

But you do make a good point about the Kaiju movies, although I would chalk that up to a third parameter: quantity creating scope. That's why I called FvJ and AvP just crossovers. The irony is by having these characters or creatures meet just once or a few times, you've actually made their universe very small. The Toho Kaiju movies through sheer quantity forced a shared universe into existence.

 

Now I'm no expert on Godzilla, but I'm betting the Toho movies' continuity doesn't hold up under a magnifying glass. And that's okay! But Marvel, taking a lead from Harry Potter, Saw and Lost, claiming they have things mapped out and air tight (this isn't necessarily what audiences really want, just what they think they want), has the illusion of a plan. 

 

Even though what's going on with Inhumans and Avengers 4, and the additions of Spider-Man and Antman and the Wasp, show an adaptability on the fly, the illusion of planning gives them confidence and the audience confidence in the brand.

Not in the Showa (1954-1975) series. At one point Minya was never used again and I doubt there was much complaining about it. The Hensi series (1985-1995) pretty much had a solid continuity, but it also had less movies in its series. Aside from the two Mechagodzilla movies, the Millennium (2000-2006) didn't even try to have continuity. Those movies where direct sequels to the first one.

post #2211 of 2785
Not to be bitchy, but that explanation needs annotation.
post #2212 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
 

Not in the Showa (1954-1975) series. At one point Minya was never used again and I doubt there was much complaining about it. The Hensi series (1985-1995) pretty much had a solid continuity, but it also had less movies in its series. Aside from the two Mechagodzilla movies, the Millennium (2000-2006) didn't even try to have continuity. Those movies where direct sequels to the first one.

 

 

Yes with the Millenium Series Toho took the decision to make each movie a stand alone "universe".

 

The Showa Series was not planned, it evolved naturally after the first Godzilla film led to Mothra, Atragon, Rodan, Frankenstein Conquers the World, Varan the unbelievable, and King Kong Escapes. (Godzilla Vs. King Kong was it's own thing). 

 

Godzilla Vs King Kong was successful enough to lead to Godzilla Vs Mothra, which then led to Godzilla, Rodan and Mothra teaming up to fight King Ghidorah (the prelude to Batman V Superman?)

post #2213 of 2785

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1386697/?ref_=fn_al_tt_1

 

9.9/10 on imdb! So that has to be good, right? Right? Only THE INTERVIEW*  was better rated!

 

* which I like.

post #2214 of 2785

FWIW, some early reactions popped up on Reddit. Mostly positive from what I see. Chief complaint seems to be some pacing issues. Deadshot and Harley supposedly steal the show and The Joker isn't in it as much as the marketing suggests and is much more of a supporting character.

post #2215 of 2785

Can we post to them or what?

post #2216 of 2785

I guess if Reddit didn't take it down it should be cool here.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/4vh60b/suicide_squad_had_early_screening_yesterday_who/

 

If you're averse to browsing there I'll quote some here:

 

Quote:
 I saw it. I enjoyed it. I felt like it had some slow spots but over all it was pretty much as expected. Margot was pretty good as Harley and Will Smith was his usual Will Smith self. I really hope to see more of Jared Leto's Mister J in upcoming movies, I really enjoyed his scenes.
Quote:
 Its pretty good. Its not like Oscar material, so don't go in expecting the Dark Knight here. But a good summer blockbuster. They nail the characters. There's a balance between the action and the small moments that flesh out everyone. Its those moments that really elevate it for me.
...
Its definitely an ensemble movie. With, say, Guardians of the Galaxy, you can point definitely to Star Lord and say, "Main character." Not so much with this where the focus is spread a little more (though some more than others).
Its self contained. Straightforward. It exists in the DC universe, but isn't going out of its way to include things for later movies to explain.

 

Quote:
So I thought BvS was shit, but I loved Suicide Squad.
My favorite characters in terms of acting was Leto, Robbie, and Smith in that order.
The action was done INCREDIBLY well, Croc was kind of an unexpected treat, didn't have much in an expectation for him at all, but he was funny.
But the biggest takeaway: Jai Courtney finally didn't just act like fucking Jai Courtney!!!

 

Quote:
 It's decent. Not bad, but not great. It's good. I'd pay to see it again.
The film is playing it very safe, and I can't help but feel that if Batman v Superman was a success, this film would feel less like it was designed by committee.
It is still a very enjoyable movie and should do well among other critics. I've heard mostly positive buzz and a few negative murmurs. If I'm being honest, the people who didn't like this film were sure they weren't going to like it prior to going in. This film isn't going to blow you away or change you into a DC fan.
Last thoughts. There are some brilliant moments in this film. The acting is fantastic. Pacing is a bit iffy. You can tell they've chopped and screwed with it to make a safe product- a product that will have a "fresh" score so as to not scare people away, but it's a product that won't be discussed as much as Batman v Superman. It will come and it will go. In that sense, it is comparable to many of Marvel's efforts.
I do like it, though. I recommend seeing it. 7/10 for me.

 

And the two negative reactions I see (well, one's negative, I'm not sure what the first one's trying to say):

 

Quote:
 I got a chance to see it yesterday on a military base near me.
Honestly, it is a desperate attempt to milk this whole superhero fad before it fades out. It was a funny movie, had good CGI, and was well acted, but to me this makes it worse. It is a prime example of wasted potential. The editing is so bad to the point of making the movie's timeline confusing. One could pick this entire movie apart and pinpoint which Marvel movies they took ideas from. I would not pay to see this.
It isn't horrible, but it is far from good.

 

Quote:
 I caught a screening. People aren't gonna want to hear this but honestly it was worse than BvS. The pacing was pretty horrible. Margot Robbie and Will Smith were good but Jared Leto's joker felt like a forced imitation of Ledger. Just slightly crazier.
It felt like a montage of fun moments with some fun characters with a lot of pointless scenes in between. The soundtrack was fun also.
Batman was in it for about 2 minutes. The joker also felt slightly underused. There was one scene that was brilliant and pretty risky with Margot Robbie that involved handcuffs, stripping, a whip and a not-so-happy ending.
Lastly, probably my favourite character of the film is clearly not going to be in any sequels based on what happened to them which pissed me off. You'll know what I mean when you see it.
post #2217 of 2785
post #2218 of 2785

if the early reactions are to be trusted it really does sound like a movie that was a strong 4 out of 5 (half-point deduction for what sounds like another lazy, non-compelling let's-team-up-to-save-the-world-from-a-whatever-villain plot, ala Guardians of the Galaxy) got funned-up, chopped-up, dumbed-down into something more like a 3 out of 5.

 

but I guess we'll know more tomorrow.

post #2219 of 2785

So is the WB/DC approach now to release heavily redacted/weirdly edited films theatrically, and then release the better version for home video? Because some of these early reviews make it sound like this one's also begging for a director's cut.

post #2220 of 2785

I feel like the reshoots will all but guarantee we never get a look at the original version of the movie.

 

I think, for instance, what we heard back in the day about adding more Batman to BvS was actually the cutting out of most of Clark's scenes. SS, on the other hand, feels like it's been tweaked tonally.

 

I'm expecting something like Payback (theatrical cut), where the second half is still enjoyable but feels like a different movie.

post #2221 of 2785

I prefer the theatrical cut of Payback. :(

post #2222 of 2785
Folks who saw early cuts are saying that a lot of the Joker stuff has been cut out of the final version.
post #2223 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

I prefer the theatrical cut of Payback. :(


I kind of do, too, but the moment you see the dog survived getting shot you know you're in a different movie.

post #2224 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

I prefer the theatrical cut of Payback. :(

Get the UK blu-ray.

post #2225 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

I prefer the theatrical cut of Payback. :(

Get the UK blu-ray.

Why? I've seen both versions.

post #2226 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

Folks who saw early cuts are saying that a lot of the Joker stuff has been cut out of the final version.

 

seems pretty bizarre if true, considering Joker is one of the film's main selling points.

 

would have loved if this film had started off about these characters banding together against a nebulous threat but Joker derails everything and basically becomes the main antagonist. and the protanogists get pitted against each other, Harley siding with Joker, Deadshot wanting to "save" her while Flagg and Katana want to kill her with Joker, the other characters split in different directions or just trying to escape with their lives (like Boomerang) and the former main threat basically becoming background chaos.

 

Kind of like when the human characters are all fighting each other in Walking Dead while zombies are knocking down their doors but making way more sense since these are villains and some of them are plain crazy, like the Joker.

 

I don't know, maybe that would be a hot mess but I feel like I can envision a version of that could work really well and be fun and dark and gritty and unhinged all at the same time. heck, throw a redemptive arc or two in there if you want, those will feel more vital if the world is basically falling apart around these characters and they are at each other's throats or scheming for most of the movie.

post #2227 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by wasp View Post

seems pretty bizarre if true, considering Joker is one of the film's main selling points.
Eh, it seems mostly in the interest of streamlining the film. The stuff that got cut sounds largely unnecessary.
post #2228 of 2785

I've been assuming the Joker's role is much smaller than the trailers might have the general public believe, so assuming Sand's intel is correct, no harm no foul for me.

post #2229 of 2785
It's possible that this thing will get an extended cut on DVD/Blu, anyway.
post #2230 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

Why? I've seen both versions.

Ohh well I just meant if you wanted to own it. That's the only blu with both versions.

post #2231 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post


Eh, it seems mostly in the interest of streamlining the film. The stuff that got cut sounds largely unnecessary.


maybe, but my point is that this is the kind of the film that could use more chaos and anarchy and nihilism and not as much streamlining, not if it's streamlining into an uber-conventional, rote super team plot.

 

I guess it could be redundant of The Dark Knight, though, where there's this plot unfolding and the Joker slowly creeps more and more into the story and basically undoes the plot, undoes the order of not just the filmic world but (and this was very intentional on the filmmakers' parts) undoes the order of the movie itself, laughs at that manufactured order, strips away the lie of the storytelling, so that huge sacrifices have to be made--symbols have to allow themselves to be destroyed, robbed of their value--in order for something that can approximate a semblance of "good" can come out of that story.

 

which is one of several reasons that The Dark Knight is a brilliant post-modern masterpiece that is also, like, an excellently crafted Batman flick.

post #2232 of 2785
Well, it mostly sounds like the stuff would have diluted the effect of other key moments. The allegedly cut material is not anything that would make the film less or more formulaic.
post #2233 of 2785

gotcha. thanks.

post #2234 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Codename View Post
 

I guess if Reddit didn't take it down it should be cool here.

 

https://www.reddit.com/r/movies/comments/4vh60b/suicide_squad_had_early_screening_yesterday_who/

 

If you're averse to browsing there I'll quote some here:

 

 

 

 

And the two negative reactions I see (well, one's negative, I'm not sure what the first one's trying to say):

 

 

 

 

So what I'm seeing here is a lot of "meh". 

 

That is disappointing.

post #2235 of 2785

Best wtf quote from the reddit thread:

 

Quote:
I'd compare it more to Guardians and Ant-Man. Without feeling as sanitized as those movies are. If Hank Pym was in Suicide Squad, there would've been a scene of him hitting his wife.
post #2236 of 2785

Well if Snyder was directing then yes that would have actually happened in the movie.

 

Guess all the classic rock songs can't help this movie.

post #2237 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evi View Post

Best wtf quote from the reddit thread:

Director of sabotage dude. Joker probably beats Harley like a drum.
post #2238 of 2785

Originally Posted by Evi View Post

Best wtf quote from the reddit thread:

I'd compare it more to Guardians and Ant-Man.

 

Oh Lord. I hope the guy's wrong but that's the type of comparison I really didn't want to see.

post #2239 of 2785
Oh so you mean the suicide squad defeat evil...

WITH THE POWER OF FRIENDSHIP?!!

ticket sold.
post #2240 of 2785

That sounds like the plot of a My Little Pony movie.

post #2241 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post


Director of sabotage dude. Joker probably beats Harley like a drum.

 

My amusement stems more from the fact that the poster makes it sound like the only reason Hank Pym doesn't beat his wife in Ant-Man is that it's goddamn sanitised.

post #2242 of 2785

Well Kevin Smith loved it and if the artistic mastermind behind YOGA HOSERS can't be trusted well then, WHO CAN?!

 

But honestly, the more muted reactions make me feel better. The early buzz for BvS was through the roof and look how that turned out (even though I still think it's great).

How many hours till the embargo lifts anyway?

post #2243 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Codename View Post


How many hours till the embargo lifts anyway?

12:00 p.m. Eastern / 9:00 a.m. Pacific

post #2244 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Evi View Post
 

 

My amusement stems more from the fact that the poster makes it sound like the only reason Hank Pym doesn't beat his wife in Ant-Man is that it's goddamn sanitised.

Hey you don't know what happens when he gets her back from that whatever zone. Maybe he only wants her back so he can beat her.

post #2245 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post
 

Originally Posted by Evi View Post

Best wtf quote from the reddit thread:

I'd compare it more to Guardians and Ant-Man.

 

Oh Lord. I hope the guy's wrong but that's the type of comparison I really didn't want to see.

 

As someone who really enjoyed Ant-Man, I'm half OK with this. And really, a slightly edgier GOTG is what I've been expecting all along. Emphasis on the slightly.

 

I remain hopeful and excited for this, but I'm also keeping my expectations leveled.

post #2246 of 2785

I'm so nervous.  I hope it's great.  

post #2247 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

 

As someone who really enjoyed Ant-Man, I'm half OK with this. And really, a slightly edgier GOTG is what I've been expecting all along. Emphasis on the slightly.

 

I remain hopeful and excited for this, but I'm also keeping my expectations leveled.

 

Ant Man was like watching a Sunday TV movie for me; a complete time waster that didn't stay with me afterward and, even whilst watching, I knew I'd never watch again. BvS may have been an awful movie that angered me upon finishing but at least provoked a reaction. If I just feel "Meh" at the end of Suicide Squad, I'm going to be incredibly disappointed. The marketing makes it look like a movie that I should remember a day later.

post #2248 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post
 
Ant Man was like watching a Sunday TV movie for me; a complete time waster that didn't stay with me afterward and, even whilst watching, I knew I'd never watch again.

 

This was how GOTG felt to me. Ant-Man felt more like something I'd like to watch again, and more involving.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post
 
If I just feel "Meh" at the end of Suicide Squad, I'm going to be incredibly disappointed. The marketing makes it look like a movie that I should remember a day later.

 

I'm with you on that. I hope to feel something more strongly positive ("Let's watch that again!") after SS.

post #2249 of 2785

I am with you on Ant Man, MichaelM.

 

Read a description of the Mid Credits scene. They are really following the Marvel Playbook on this one.

post #2250 of 2785

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