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Suicide Squad pre-release discussion thread - Page 55

post #2701 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by anon789 View Post

i am accompanying my friend who is a really big dc fan to watch suicide squad, is there any kind o information i should be aware of before i watch this?

It's shitty.
post #2702 of 2785

Heeeeeey!  Damn it Brad!

 

 

This is the pre-release thread, therefore you must mean its "pre-shitty".

post #2703 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by anon789 View Post
 

i am accompanying my friend who is a really big dc fan to watch suicide squad, is there any kind o information i should be aware of before i watch this?

 

Close your eyes and put a finger in each ear when the trailer for Nine Lives starts, and enjoy the thought of how funny a movie about a cat with Kevin Spacey's voice might be. In my mind, he's the cat version of Keyzer Soze (Catzer Soze?) and it's awesome.

 

KEEP REALITY AT BAY

post #2704 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

It's shitty.

If Brad doesn't like this, my confidence drops.
post #2705 of 2785
Just picture, for a second, BvS's Batfleck against Leto's Joker. It's wonderfulz
post #2706 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynis View Post

Just picture, for a second, BvS's Batfleck against Leto's Joker. It's wonderfulz

Wouldn't it essentially be the "I wanted to destroy something beautiful" scene from Fight Club but with costumes?
post #2707 of 2785
So, it's lazy matinee viewing time. I've mentioned before that I specially reserve these days for movies I don't have a lot of enthusiasm for and the general reaction to Suicide Squad (as well as my crowded schedule) managed to sap my earlier cautious enthusiasm.

However, I also pride myself on the confidence of my own perspective and on not allowing the opinions of others to fuck me up if I genuinely see worth in a film, so let's see how this goes.
post #2708 of 2785
Okay, so back in 1982, John Carpenter's THE THING was hatefucked atop a pinball machine for reasons that now clearly suggest that it was the victim of a meme going in the popular culture of the time. It was a very different vision of a classic film and derided for being an iverly gory ripoff of ALIEN.

Needless to say, time has been very kind to THE THING.

None of that is to say that SUICIDE SQUAD is a direct analogue or that time will be nearly as kind to it, but holy shit, is this hot mess, but not offensively bad superhero movie ever a victim of a meme that's been detectable for years.

I've got more to say, but I've got an appointment with my tattoo artist, so I'll go into detail later.

I will leave with this: Jared Leto is not only not bad in the film, he's actually good within the confines of a script (or a studio chop job) that gives him almost no breathing room. Leto was creating a possessive, mercurial character who can seduce you with the idea that living without rules and without fear was sexy and achievable if you committed to it. It's garbled and obscured in the vignettes, but none of that should be laid at Leto's feet. He doesn't do anything wrong.

The Harley and Joker relationship is perhaps the biggest victim here, despite showing promise around the edges.
post #2709 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

I will leave with this: Jared Leto is not only not bad in the film, he's actually good within the confines of a script (or a studio chop job) that gives him almost no breathing room. Leto was creating a possessive, mercurial character who can seduce you with the idea that living without rules and without fear was sexy and achievable if you committed to it. It's garbled and obscured in the vignettes, but none of that should be laid at Leto's feet. He doesn't do anything wrong.
 

I like that.  I would have liked to see that play out more confidently by the studio.  

post #2710 of 2785
Okay, that was a quick job. Anyway, Ayer has the right feel for these characters, but it's rushed and messy and so many of the early scenes feel cut-off at the knees. I swear when the Enchantress plot kicks into gear, I had no fucking idea what was going on. Her doomsday machine is one of the most ill-defined MacGuffins I've seen in a film like this. I have no idea what it was supposed to be about.

However, there isn't a single bad performance in the lot, only characters who are rushed and underdeveloped by the mechanisms of storytelling.

What Ayer was doing was telling a story about characters who were trying to reconcile their lot in life and facing their own mortality and limited time in this world. There is a pervasive theme of finding self-actualization in the heart of failure. In Harley's head, she still wants to piece together a broken man and complete herself in the process. Deadshot wants his daughter to not be ashamed of him, but thinks that he has to lie to maintain her love. Croc wants a place where no one can treat him like a monster because he doesn't feel like a monster. Diablo wants to authentically give of himself to a family and not be controlled by anger, avarice and greed.

Diablo and his powers are probably the best realization of the theme that Ayer was trying to explore through all of these characters: Fire is a good servant, but a bad master.

I rather like that most of the main cast are fucked over and sent back to prison with few appreciable privileges. I wish the film hadn't had to suffer the standard villain plot or had maybe 15-20 more minutes to just hang with these people.
post #2711 of 2785

What are your thoughts on the Harley Joker relationship?

post #2712 of 2785
*fart sound*
post #2713 of 2785
There's too much going on for it to be served properly. What I liked is that The Joker is shown to be genuinely obsessed with Harley, so it's not a one-sided affair. He's discombobulated without her and goes through extraordinary lengths to get her back in his life.

The one scene that illustrates this and that I've seen slagged in this thread, is the brief scene with Common. The Joker is showing his possessive feelings when Common's character dares to even look at her. He doesn't offer Harley to him, that's not what's happening. What he's doing is whipping himself into a jealous rage so that he can give himself permission to kill this man.

That kind of behavior is straight out of Brian Azzarello's JOKER GN.

Again, I am not implying that all of this lands and connects within the context of the finished product, but I'm not going to accept the idea that Ayer didn't know what he was doing from start to finish.
post #2714 of 2785
If Leto doesn't want to do this again, I understand and sympathize, but I would be perfectly happy to see him perform this role with a script that doesn't ultimately fuck him over.

I don't get it man. I'm actually kind of offended on Leto's behalf for his getting so much shit for something he had no control over.
post #2715 of 2785
Leto hasn't and won't watch the film. He claims to not even know what they did with Joker in the final cut. He just knows his role was dramatically reduced and isn't what they assured him the character would be. That alone must really suck since he obviously threw himself into it so hard. But I have to scoff at his utter disbelief in what happened. I wish he wasn't acting so juvenile about it all and would just soldier on.
post #2716 of 2785
I don't think that's juvenile. He showed up to work, put in the hours, and then the studio brooms whole chunks of it? Fuck that, I'd be pissed.

He knows that the audience judges you based on what makes it into a film after it passes through the editing suite and that has clearly played out in the reviews with people slamming him specifically. That's the business and the business isn't fair, but I'm not going to begrudge him his irritation.

Again, I think these people are wrong and are maybe responding to all of the copy hype about how method he supposedly was and so this is the blowback for that.
post #2717 of 2785

I don't know if it's a juvenile reaction, but Ayer is obviously handling it much more professionally.  He arguably has an even bigger stake on the film the Studio did everything in their power to fuck.  

post #2718 of 2785

Leto was really asking for it though with all the method acting bs. If he'd just been like "yeah, I'm excited to play the Joker" or "I'm isolating myself from the rest of the cast except for when we're acting together in costume," there'd be less schadenfreude in viewing the performance. 

post #2719 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by avian View Post

Leto was really asking for it though with all the method acting bs. If he'd just been like "yeah, I'm excited to play the Joker" or "I'm isolating myself from the rest of the cast except for when we're acting together in costume," there'd be less schadenfreude in viewing the performance. 


^

This is what I'm talking about. If you've been watching movies for years and have been exposed to all of the press shenanigans, there is no reason for anyone to give a shit about any of the nonsense PR.

Normies and critics with hangups and agendas can complain about silly shit like that, but I generally expect more from people like us.
post #2720 of 2785
I don't begrudge him for the outright rage he must feel. But his shock and tastelessness in tact is disheartening. Professionalism doesn't end when you walk off set. Low-key saying Ledger's death is the reason everyone loves that Joker, and outright saying "If I had died before the release people would love it" and then saying it's the editing. And then that he was "tricked", like they knew what the were doing all along and were malicious in presenting his performance, is stupid. Along with being a real dick to interviewers who really didn't do anything incendiary or wrong in their questioning, just fluff interviews that were nice to him. He'd just asked back rhetorical questions and storm off.

And for the record, I had zero qualms with his performance.
post #2721 of 2785
Leto is nothing if not a prideful fucker and it sounds like he's taking it too far, but I'm less interested in his response than I am in the filmic illiteracy that's led to people not understanding that he's not the only one responsible for how his character turns out.
post #2722 of 2785
Leto and Adrien Brody should bond over common experiences.
post #2723 of 2785

Lets face it.  A lot of the negative reaction to his Joker is because Leto is a notorious douchebag and people are bringing that to it.  Which is unavoidable. 

post #2724 of 2785
I don't blame Leto for being upset. He really wanted to make his mark on this character and other forces prevented him from doing so.
post #2725 of 2785
I've said my peace on Leto, so on to Will Smith. He's great. He's the most fully realized character in the film and he has at least three or four great moments that are completely organic to his character. He stuns the shit out the soldiers by single-handedly capping all of those monsters, which forces them to respect him (so he is seen as more than "a serial killer who takes credit cards." - good line, that). He has that heartbreaking flashback where Batman captures him in front of his daughter and near the end where he tells Flagg that he wants his daughter to know that he's not a piece of shit and in between the moment where he does something he never does and "misses" his mark.

I really liked when Enchantress was in his head, appealing to his desire to kill Batman, but Diablo jumping in telling him that he didn't *really* want that, which was perceptive, because what Floyd really wanted was to erase the moment he was shamed in front of his daughter. The fantasy of killing Batman had nothing to do with Batman himself. This is also why Harley's fantasy of domestic bliss has no bearing on what she was really looking for.

In the end, Floyd Lawton is still a criminal, but has made peace with his lot in life, which is apiece with the scene where Harley berates Diablo for repressing himself and pining for a life he could have never lived.
post #2726 of 2785
I will say that I don't understand how Amanda Waller still has a job (or her life) after this. She comes up with the idea for Task Force X and concurrently facilitates the kind of threat that they're meant to combat, leaving hundreds or thousands of people to pay for her hubris and cataclysmic incompetence with their lives.

Yes, people who are useful, connected, and know where bodies are buried might have a lot of leverage, but she's kind of an idiot.

That may have been the point, but unfortunately for Ayer and Davis, it plays like a huge mistake for the character and the story. The Enchantress should not have been associated with Waller and her people, it only makes the latter look bad.
post #2727 of 2785

Was reading this. Kevin Smith actually named his daughter Harley Quinn?

 

You learn something new every day.

post #2728 of 2785

It was a more innocent time?

post #2729 of 2785

The last thing I'm going to say about this tonight is a compliment for Ayer. He gets these characters. He does. What the finished product is may be a combination of studio interference and perhaps his own limitations, but spilling out of the margins is evidence of a creative mind that is a fine match for the material. SUICIDE SQUAD may ultimately be swallowed up in the larger conversation of studio warfare (which is all about commerce and nothing to do with art), a conversation that threatens to suffocate our ability to recognize the individual, but I salute Ayer's ability to weather what's happened here. 

 

I don't love the film, but I don't dislike it either because Ayer clearly gave a shit. His pneuma is running throughout the film and it's not plagued by the grotesque superficiality of a Zack Snyder movie. This is an example of two parties being in a relationship where one of them is fully committed and the other significantly less so. It's a goddamn shame, but all that aside, I don't think anyone should be embarrassed by their work here. 

post #2730 of 2785
Hmm... I suppose I'll catch this soon, but my expectations are rock bottom.
post #2731 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

Hmm... I suppose I'll catch this soon, but my expectations are rock bottom.

They shouldn't be.  Johnny's reaction is relatively indicative of a lot of people in this thread.  Even I walked out of it thinking it had it's strengths and I still do.  This is by no means an insufferable agony of a viewing experience like that rotten Jurassic World.  

post #2732 of 2785
Yup. I'd rather focus on what works and talk about what could have been improved than call it an outright failure.
post #2733 of 2785

This movie is FAR away from an outright failure. When it works, it really, really fucking works. 

 

The scene with Common mentioned, as well as his conversation with the Warden, were two moments where I did see flashes of an interesting Joker from Leto. Maybe with more scenes he'd play better but for the most part his character just did nothing for me. Maybe it's cause he's following the powerhouse of Ledger's performance (and I know it's not fair to Leto to compare him to Ledger, but it can't be helped) but he wasn't making the impression that a character as huge as The Joker SHOULD make. He's pretty much the George Lazenby to Ledger's Connery for me. 

post #2734 of 2785

I had fun and I enjoyed things, but what really REALLY worked for you?  I suppose I would say the only thing I remember feeling that way about was Deadshot just going to fucking town on those monsters.  

post #2735 of 2785

That part, the bar scene (even though they cut quite a lot of it that was in the trailers), pretty much everything with Diablo and Harley respectively, Deadshot's backstory, particularly his confrontation with Batman. And really just the entire chemistry between the squad. These are what have stayed with me the most and if the movie had a much more confident final cut, I think it would play a hundred times better. 

post #2736 of 2785
Yup. The bar scene really is the best part of the movie, and Quinn's "own that shit" speech is particularly great. There's a better movie in there, but suicide squad gets hamstringed by the usual problems: needing to tie in with a stupid cinematic universe.
post #2737 of 2785
It remains a failed attempt for me, though mostly because we're swimming in movies like this nowadays, and the various competencies this one achieves weren't enough to distinguish it from the pack. It's adequate, but there's just too much shorthand and familiarity for me to have any real strong feelings about it at all.
post #2738 of 2785

Stuff like the most lazily setup sky portal ever and the villain from the Mummy movies REALLY drags it down, totally needlessly.  Those half assed lame things are only in there because they thought it's what you do in this sort of movie.  Noooooo!  Do your own thing! 

post #2739 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post

It remains a failed attempt for me, though mostly because we're swimming in movies like this nowadays, and the various competencies this one achieves weren't enough to distinguish it from the pack. It's adequate, but there's just too much shorthand and familiarity for me to have any real strong feelings about it at all.

 

Yup, I'm in agreement with this. There are elements in the movie that I like (chief among them being Will Smith doing his utmost to bring three dimensions to a character written with only two) but, ultimately, the movie never really shows the characters coalesce into a team (which should be essential for any movie featuring a group of individuals coming together for a common goal) and tries to use the bar scene late in the movie to shortcut this deficit, never demonstrates why these particular characters are essential for this particular task in the first place, never offers any satisfactory pay-offs (Harley turning down the chance to resurrect Joker when she believes him to be dead, so that she can help a group of people she met a few hours ago, is particular egregious) and fails at almost every step. It's only the likeability of the cast (including a surprisingly aweseome Jai Courtney) that makes the movie work in any capacity.  

post #2740 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ska Oreo View Post

Yup. The bar scene really is the best part of the movie, and Quinn's "own that shit" speech is particularly great. There's a better movie in there, but suicide squad gets hamstringed by the usual problems: needing to tie in with a stupid cinematic universe.

I actually don't think the cinematic universe thing specifically hurt the movie as much as WB's constantly reactive second-guessing of its properties (which is very much tied to the cinematic universe thing, of course).  After all, it's the second-guessing that resulted in them chasing the shared-universe model.

 

But even outside of that, the movie had too many characters to serve in a story that didn't need most of them in a plot that made little sense.  Once again, because of the shared-universe model caused by the second-guessing.

post #2741 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
 

Was reading this. Kevin Smith actually named his daughter Harley Quinn?

 

You learn something new every day.

And even more cruel forced her to stand next to Johnny Depp's daughter in full view of the internet.

post #2742 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
This is an example of two parties being in a relationship where one of them is fully committed and the other significantly less so. 

 

Which appears to be the WB's approach to the DC cinematic universe: hire (mostly) gifted people and then constrain and fuck with them, muddying their vision and approach (which were the very things WB claimed to hire them for).

 

Here's hoping Johns can help straighten this shit out. Unlikely, but maybe WW and JL will represent a turning of the tide.

post #2743 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post
 

And even more cruel forced her to stand next to Johnny Depp's daughter in full view of the internet.

 

Kevin Smith's daughter isn't bad looking, but standing next to someone whose head is smaller than yours isn't a good thing, and Depp's daughter is also prettier by comparison.

post #2744 of 2785
Aren't they like 16?
post #2745 of 2785

<Placeholder for eventual Gabe T joke>

post #2746 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

Aren't they like 16?

17.

Saw the exact same thing happen on another forum. Someone was low-key calling this young girl ugly, then when people defended her they were low-key called creeps!

But if you really want to be creeped out:

"The U.S. federal law establishes the age of 12 as the minimum age of consent, while the age at which there are no restrictions for consensual sexual activities is 18 (sex with someone 12-18 is not illegal per se, but can still be open to prosecution under certain circumstances). Many states designate the age to be 16."
post #2747 of 2785
I call those Trump states.
post #2748 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynis View Post

17.

Saw the exact same thing happen on another forum. Someone was low-key calling this young girl ugly, then when people defended her they were low-key called creeps!

But if you really want to be creeped out:

"The U.S. federal law establishes the age of 12 as the minimum age of consent, while the age at which there are no restrictions for consensual sexual activities is 18 (sex with someone 12-18 is not illegal per se, but can still be open to prosecution under certain circumstances). Many states designate the age to be 16."

Also how many forums are you reading about kevin smith in??? Don't punish yourself you're a good lad.
post #2749 of 2785
Funnily enough, it was a SUICIDE SQUAD thread.

I don't post, or even have an account, on any other forum. Forums are awful places, 99.999999999999% of the time.
post #2750 of 2785
Quote:
Originally Posted by Raynis View Post

I don't begrudge him for the outright rage he must feel. But his shock and tastelessness in tact is disheartening. Professionalism doesn't end when you walk off set. Low-key saying Ledger's death is the reason everyone loves that Joker, and outright saying "If I had died before the release people would love it" and then saying it's the editing. And then that he was "tricked", like they knew what the were doing all along and were malicious in presenting his performance, is stupid. Along with being a real dick to interviewers who really didn't do anything incendiary or wrong in their questioning, just fluff interviews that were nice to him. He'd just asked back rhetorical questions and storm off.

And for the record, I had zero qualms with his performance.

Going method with a character in terms of the approach to the filming of a movie in the past has had wildly different outcomes, obviously.

It used to impress me, like Carrey with Andy Kaufman in Man on the Moon. However as I have gotten older I suppose it impresses me more to know, that since, ya know, YOU'RE AN ACTOR, that you don't have to be an outright dick to the people while the film isn't rolling.

During the filming of Marathon Man Hoffman got into the mindset of a marathon runner, by running.


Apparently Lawrence Olivier approached him by asking him why he did this. Hoffman responded by saying simply this was the best way to get the performance of a runner across, astowhich Olivier said "try acting."

Several weeks later while filming the "is it safe?" scene, Olivier forgot his line, allowing Hoffman to throw the retort back at him.

A familar story to some I am sure but amusing and somewhat mirroring my thoughts.

...

But then again, fuck Olivier, maybe Dustin just needed to get in shape a bit before all the jogging scenes....
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