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Western Society, Pop Culture, and the Cacophony of Social Media - Page 5

post #201 of 4805
I can totally see how my disdainful tone made it sound like I was really focusing on their whiteness as opposed to the pervasiveness of the stereotype.

I apologize for that.


HONKEYS, AM I RIGHT???
post #202 of 4805
Hah! We caught you red-handed, racist!
post #203 of 4805
NO WAIT!!!

DON'T SET OFF THE SOCIAL MEDIA MACHINE ON MEEEE!!!
post #204 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

I can totally see how my disdainful tone made it sound like I was really focusing on their whiteness as opposed to the pervasiveness of the stereotype.

I apologize for that.


HONKEYS, AM I RIGHT???

I need to just stay out of these types of threads.

post #205 of 4805
NO YOU STAY!!!

I'll be more mindful!
post #206 of 4805

post #207 of 4805
I totally get what Nooj means. Lots of critics use their platforms as a side door into their own personal pity parties.

And middle class white guys don't usually have a lot in the old trauma tank, so they beat the old broken-home horse like that wasn't something that statistically happens to half of everyone.
post #208 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post


And middle class white guys don't usually have a lot in the old trauma tank

 

Is this really true? I mean, white privelege is a thing. Institutionalized racism is a thing. And hetero white males certainly have had a much easier ride than anyone else for...pretty much forever.

 

But does that allow for outright dismissal or mocking of what may have been actual traumatizing or deeply affecting events?

 

Don't get me wrong. I'm not taking a centrist or right-leaning position. And I'm not arguing about myself. I had some shit happen growing up that affects me to this day...but I also know I grew up pretty much in a storybook way compared to most of the population of the earth. I'm throwing this out as a genuine discussion point.

post #209 of 4805
We all go through shit. And it's our own shit, and it's real to us. And sometimes it provides an interesting lens by which we can interact with other people or art.

It's not that whitey* has specifically boring problems, it's that there are so many of him out there that diverse voices get squeezed out, and that's the dull part.

There's no crime in Nooj saying "where do I see myself? Who is speaking to my experience?"

*which would be me, too.
post #210 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post


It's not that whitey* has specifically boring problems, it's that there are so many of him out there that diverse voices get squeezed out, and that's the dull part.

 

Ah, that I understand. And yeah, I can totally get behind the "UNGH, enough" already due to.....

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

There's no crime in Nooj saying "where do I see myself? Who is speaking to my experience?"
 
No there's not, and to make myself clear: I was in no way arguing against this statement. I very much support a diversity of voices, perspectives, and angles of approach. 
 
ETA: My gif posted above was purely as good-natured snark. Nothing serious about it at all.
post #211 of 4805
I love that gif!
post #212 of 4805
Something else to consider is what is known to all good comedians (and I would say Nooj is one) but seems to be lost on the Internet: you should get more leeway when you challenge the dominant paradigm.

Punching down is bullying. Punching up is satire.
post #213 of 4805

Talking about 'dominant paradigms' and demographic trends and so on has its uses when you're talking on a societal or systemic level, but I find it a bit dodgy to try to apply that stuff to individual people, as if all they are is a dot on some sociologist's venn diagram.

 

Also people are very good at convincing themselves they're punching up, and that their 'punching' is helping when it might actually be hurting. Sorry to keep dragging the conversation back to Jon Ronson and my pet obsession with call out culture, but this interview touches on so many of the things I find troubling about what internet discourse is like these days.

post #214 of 4805

Another thing about the current pop culture society is that you cannot be forgotten. The internet is written in stone, so whatever you say or think say...three years ago is what you will always be held to no matter what. Case in point, guess which incredibly handsome, accented man who just got the anchor job at a major comedy news show is now in hot water over some bad jokes he made a few years back?

 

Cue the Jezebel backlash in 3...2...1...

post #215 of 4805
Oh man that's really good.

(the interview Paul linked)
post #216 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

Something else to consider is what is known to all good comedians (and I would say Nooj is one

NO!!!!
post #217 of 4805
A black comedian making jokes about jews and women? What a surprise!

Am I doing this right?
post #218 of 4805

I don't even know where I should start here, other than to note that this is easily my favorite CHUD thread in quite awhile. So many people are hitting on so many points that have been eating away at me for the last several years now that I'm afraid anything I add will either be needlessly echoing other posts, or so scatershot and all over the map as to lack any real focus.

I'll be back later-ish when I've collected my thoughts/picked out an area to focus on. For now though, I just want to give everyone in here the biggest kudos possible. Stuff like this is exactly why this is the only internet forum left that I really pay any attention to anymore.

post #219 of 4805

Jaquio?

Two baby paragraphs?

This is not Jaquio...

WHO ARE YOU???

 

http://nintendoplayer.com/prototypes/ninjagaiden2/Ninja%20Gaiden%20II%20-%20The%20Dark%20Sword%20of%20Chaos%20(USA)-j2.png 

post #220 of 4805

I remain massively disappointed that in all the instances where someone on here took issue with something or other I said in one of my longer posts, that none of them ever once simply responded with the following images:

post #221 of 4805
oh man...

I just got the wind knocked out of me.
post #222 of 4805
So..

Much..

Rep..
post #223 of 4805
If only I'd known there was an elegant way out of the Blade thread!

As it stands, I'll have to go back and change all my posts to "."
post #224 of 4805

This Trevor Noah controversy is too perfect. A young guy from mixed ethnic and religious background is given one of the most visible platforms in popular culture, and the reaction isn't "yay diversity" but to digitally crucify him for the crime of not having lived his entire life as a blandly flawless liberal specimen. Well done guys, that's sure to win people over.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Doc Happenin View Post
 

Another thing about the current pop culture society is that you cannot be forgotten. The internet is written in stone, so whatever you say or think say...three years ago is what you will always be held to no matter what.


This isn't political, but I remember years ago there was this minor youtube comedian guy who'd be a perfect subject for that public shaming book (assuming he's not already, I still need to read it).

 

He was some kind of online twitter relationship with some suspiciously hot girl on twitter, who was later revealed to be fake. He claimed it was a catfish (though I think this was before that was a word), but The Internet had already made up its mind that he'd made her up entirely and was the world's biggest loser, and he was the laughing stock of the internet for a few days. I remember reading an interview with him shortly afterwards where he just came across as completely destroyed.

 

I totally forgot about it until a few weeks back when I was reading some article somewhere. In response to a completely harmless comment, some guy said something like "Hey isn't this the guy with the fake girlfriend? I'm amazed he has the balls to show his face online", and sure enough it was him. So apparently that's his identity now and forever, even though it's entirely possible he was the victim of someone else's lie, and even if he was lying it was about something completely harmless and trivial.

 

This is why when I see the progressive left - who are supposed to be the thoughtful, compassionate good guys! - latching onto this kind of stuff and making it their own, it feels to me a bit like Gandalf deciding to use the one ring and going "hey, I'm just trying to protect the Hobbits. You an orc or something??" while he fucks up Middle Earth.

post #225 of 4805
"I come back to you now... AT THE TURN OF THE TIDE."
post #226 of 4805
I have fake girlfriends bc my wife won't let me have real ones.
post #227 of 4805

Bitches, amirite?

 

COME AT ME, SJWs!

post #228 of 4805
tumblr_inline_nk1bzuimWg1r63chl.gif
post #229 of 4805

I'm sure some of you are going to get a kick out of this: http://www.avclub.com/article/patton-oswalt-wrote-53-masterful-tweets-welcoming--217368

 

 

 

The problem with outrage culture, why I agree with some examples and not others, is that, at it's core--it's fucking lazy. It's making radical, reductive assumptions with the click of a button. It doesn't cost you anything and best of all, you don't need to empathize with the person you're arguing. Better if there's a bunch of people who agree with you. 

post #230 of 4805
Thread Starter 
I want to have Oswalt's children right now. I can say that because I'm not confined by the false paradigm of "gender".
post #231 of 4805
God bless that wonderful, wonderful man.
post #232 of 4805

Noah's jokes were the obvious, painfully unfunny material you'd expect to see a local stand-up comedian perform, but he shouldn't lose his new gig over them.  Thankfully, there isn't a movement for that to happen.  From what I've seen, the reactions to the jokes seem to range from "Eh, those are gross" to disappointment that the next host of the Daily Show has a history of going after such low-hanging fruit (the overweight, Caster Semenya).  At the same time, it seems like any response to a comedian's work is conflated with the most extreme response.  You either take the joke regardless of its content or you're a deep breath perpetually offended puritan jihadist SJW calling for outright censorship deep breath; there can be no middle ground from which to dissect and discuss this type of humor.  While I like Oswalt a lot, his need to come to the defense of Pure and Noble Comedy as if it's under constant attack is getting a little tiring.  He's making generic arguments against perceived political correctness that don't actually apply to the situation. 

 

We've now reached the point where there's serious outrage about so-called outrage culture.  Which is totally outrageous.

 

Having said all that, I wish Trevor Noah well and hope he's a worthy successor to Stewart.  He said those jokes don't represent him as a comedian, and I believe that.

post #233 of 4805

What I am truly outraged about? The creeping infestation of our late night shows with foreigners. I mean a token Scotsman and his robot pal are one thing, but every time I turn around there is a new accent on my late night television. It's unnatural, and I am agin'it.

post #234 of 4805
post #235 of 4805

"So to pretend like you were just innocently working on your craft when you stumbled haplessly into, say, an ad-lib about choking your girlfriend (and, on top of that, to insist that such an ad-lib couldn’t possibly reflect your actual feelings about women, because it’s ‘just a joke’ and jokes obviously spring from a contextless void) is a bad-faith absurdity."

That reasoning is a slippery slope. The context could be "going for shocking and tasteless" and not "personal philosophy/habits". But I suppose it's one form of exploitation. Is a joke about rape condoning actual rape any more than a film that features it?
post #236 of 4805

Oh this whole topic is a slippery slope of slippery slopes.

post #237 of 4805

Again context.  Remember kids: Only Sith Lords deal in absolutes. 

 

 

Sometimes an awful, offensive joke can be funny, but other times an awful, offensive joke is just awful and offensive.  Depends on the comedian. Depends on context.

post #238 of 4805
Thread Starter 
post #239 of 4805

Point four is key. The audience is pretty much king in these situations. Comedians here do gigs at working class mens clubs, and I promise you, they are not doing the same skits they do when they make it onto primetime BBC. But you don't get to be funny without practice and you don't get to find what's funny without hearing people laugh.

 

And you've got to eat so will tell the jokes that pay the bills.

post #240 of 4805

The Daily Beast put out a good piece that examines both sides of the issue without being overly critical of Noah or caricaturing people who had issues with the material.  Worth a read:

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/01/trevor-noah-and-the-toxicity-of-twitter-a-cocktail-party-conversation-that-s-being-refereed.html

post #241 of 4805

Back to Jon Ronson (who Paul C referred to earlier in the thread):

 

http://enathanael.com/2015/04/02/reply-all-ronson/

 

http://www.onthemedia.org/story/podcast-extra-jon-ronson-and-public-shaming/

 

 

 

And Monica Lewinski's TED talk.  Yes, it's reached that point.

 

THE PHOENIX RISES!!!  Everyone loves the comeback/recovery/reversal narrative!

 

“I was Patient Zero of losing a personal reputation on a global scale almost instantaneously.”

 

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/04/02/the-reinvention-of-monica-lewinsky.html

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/03/22/style/monica-lewinsky-is-back-but-this-time-its-on-her-terms.html

 

 

 

 

Also fascinating... those who were complicit in BRUTALIZING her reputation for quick jokes and support of their own biases are now feeling guilt.  All these years later. 

Quote:
 

I told her I was interested in her effort to re-emerge, and had been particularly fascinated by the reaction to it, as if there were a kind of public reckoning underway. Feminists who had stayed silent on the first go-round were suddenly defending her, using terms like “slut-shaming” and “media gender bias” to do it.

The late-night host David Letterman was on air expressing remorse over how he had mocked her, asking, in a recent interview with Barbara Walters, “With some perspective, do you realize this is a sad human situation?” Bill Maher said of reading Ms. Lewinsky’s piece in Vanity Fair, “I gotta tell you, I literally felt guilty.”

 

(nothing at all against Lewinsky getting some kind of retroactive benefit from coming back out in the spotlight to speak on these issues... but I can't help but also think about just how many handlers she's got working with her behind the scenes to make sure this all 'works' since there will still be PLENTY of pushback working to thwart any kind of 'comeback')


Edited by mcnooj82 - 4/3/15 at 3:03pm
post #242 of 4805
Thread Starter 
I can't imagine Hilary is too happy about this being back in the news. "Awkward timing" doesn't quite cover it. That said, I was cognizant of politics enough to remember how awful that whole period was. It may have been my first exposure to the hypocrisy of politicians and the American political system.


However...


That said....


*Gets on a very tiny moral high horse*


You roll the dice, you take your chances. I imagine that if the most powerful man in the free world shows a sexual interest towards you, it's going to place you in an awkward situation. You might think to yourself "what happens if I say no?". I get that. I TOTALLY get it. STILL. She ultimately made the decision and it would have been just as shady on 1600 Pensacola Ave as it was on 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

I don't think she should have been smeared and picked on the same way that Clinton was, because while they were both consenting adults with free will, only one of them was in a major position of power. That's my only quibble, insofar as it is one. I don't think it's honest to try and completely take responsbility from out of her hands.
post #243 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

I can't imagine Hilary is too happy about this being back in the news. 
 
 

 

I was wondering about that too.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post


You roll the dice, you take your chances. I imagine that if the most powerful man in the free world shows a sexual interest towards you, it's going to place you in an awkward situation. You might think to yourself "what happens if I say no?". I get that. I TOTALLY get it. STILL. She ultimately made the decision and it would have been just as shady on 1600 Pensacola Ave as it was on 1600 Pennsylvania Ave.

I don't think she should have been smeared and picked on the same way that Clinton was, because while they were both consenting adults with free will, only one of them was in a major position of power. That's my only quibble, insofar as it is one. I don't think it's honest to try and completely take responsbility from out of her hands.
 

I mostly get this from the way she frames her story now (since I was a bit young and ignorant of all things political)... her decision seems to have been largely driven by legitimate feelings for Clinton back then.  Young and naive, etc etc.

 

I don't think there's any intention of taking the responsibility out of her hands, but more of an attempt to apologize for how brutally she was treated.  If there's any attempt to mark her as blameless, it'll be because the media (and we as a culture) are collectively incapable of doing anything in a measured fashion.  That attempt would likely gotten to after a certain amount of 'penance escalation.'  More of a side-effect than a focused intention.

 

If her REINVENTION INITIATIVE takes off and she suddenly becomes a media darling (whether it's largely to collectively apologize to her or mostly just vulturous well-wishers of the moment), I can totally see some calling for her to be COMPLETELY forgiven (while using it as an opportunity to attack the Clintons?).  But that's people.  Regular shitty people.

 

 

 

no free will


Edited by mcnooj82 - 4/3/15 at 3:12pm
post #244 of 4805
There's not enough retconning in the world for me to forget that Lewinsky parleyed the notoriety she gained from her role in the scandal into a guest hosting gig on Saturday Night Live. She was all torn up about the notoriety, all right.

None of that matters, because adultery isn't scandalous. NAFTA is scandalous, but the constitutionally required two thirds of the U.S. Senate were willing to go along with Bill and ratify that piece of shit.
post #245 of 4805
Thread Starter 
Oh, man, I don't even remember the SNL thing. You're correct in that Lewinsky is nothing compared to far more damaging events in American politics, but I am a huge stickler for personal responsibility.
post #246 of 4805
I gotta look that up!
post #247 of 4805
Misdirection. Bread and circuses.
post #248 of 4805
Damn! Youtube has nothing!!
post #249 of 4805
Thread Starter 
post #250 of 4805
Thanks for the correction.
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