I apologize for that.
HONKEYS, AM I RIGHT???
I need to just stay out of these types of threads.
Is this really true? I mean, white privelege is a thing. Institutionalized racism is a thing. And hetero white males certainly have had a much easier ride than anyone else for...pretty much forever.
But does that allow for outright dismissal or mocking of what may have been actual traumatizing or deeply affecting events?
Don't get me wrong. I'm not taking a centrist or right-leaning position. And I'm not arguing about myself. I had some shit happen growing up that affects me to this day...but I also know I grew up pretty much in a storybook way compared to most of the population of the earth. I'm throwing this out as a genuine discussion point.
Ah, that I understand. And yeah, I can totally get behind the "UNGH, enough" already due to.....
Talking about 'dominant paradigms' and demographic trends and so on has its uses when you're talking on a societal or systemic level, but I find it a bit dodgy to try to apply that stuff to individual people, as if all they are is a dot on some sociologist's venn diagram.
Also people are very good at convincing themselves they're punching up, and that their 'punching' is helping when it might actually be hurting. Sorry to keep dragging the conversation back to Jon Ronson and my pet obsession with call out culture, but this interview touches on so many of the things I find troubling about what internet discourse is like these days.
Another thing about the current pop culture society is that you cannot be forgotten. The internet is written in stone, so whatever you say or think say...three years ago is what you will always be held to no matter what. Case in point, guess which incredibly handsome, accented man who just got the anchor job at a major comedy news show is now in hot water over some bad jokes he made a few years back?
Cue the Jezebel backlash in 3...2...1...
I don't even know where I should start here, other than to note that this is easily my favorite CHUD thread in quite awhile. So many people are hitting on so many points that have been eating away at me for the last several years now that I'm afraid anything I add will either be needlessly echoing other posts, or so scatershot and all over the map as to lack any real focus.
I'll be back later-ish when I've collected my thoughts/picked out an area to focus on. For now though, I just want to give everyone in here the biggest kudos possible. Stuff like this is exactly why this is the only internet forum left that I really pay any attention to anymore.
I remain massively disappointed that in all the instances where someone on here took issue with something or other I said in one of my longer posts, that none of them ever once simply responded with the following images:
This Trevor Noah controversy is too perfect. A young guy from mixed ethnic and religious background is given one of the most visible platforms in popular culture, and the reaction isn't "yay diversity" but to digitally crucify him for the crime of not having lived his entire life as a blandly flawless liberal specimen. Well done guys, that's sure to win people over.
This isn't political, but I remember years ago there was this minor youtube comedian guy who'd be a perfect subject for that public shaming book (assuming he's not already, I still need to read it).
He was some kind of online twitter relationship with some suspiciously hot girl on twitter, who was later revealed to be fake. He claimed it was a catfish (though I think this was before that was a word), but The Internet had already made up its mind that he'd made her up entirely and was the world's biggest loser, and he was the laughing stock of the internet for a few days. I remember reading an interview with him shortly afterwards where he just came across as completely destroyed.
I totally forgot about it until a few weeks back when I was reading some article somewhere. In response to a completely harmless comment, some guy said something like "Hey isn't this the guy with the fake girlfriend? I'm amazed he has the balls to show his face online", and sure enough it was him. So apparently that's his identity now and forever, even though it's entirely possible he was the victim of someone else's lie, and even if he was lying it was about something completely harmless and trivial.
This is why when I see the progressive left - who are supposed to be the thoughtful, compassionate good guys! - latching onto this kind of stuff and making it their own, it feels to me a bit like Gandalf deciding to use the one ring and going "hey, I'm just trying to protect the Hobbits. You an orc or something??" while he fucks up Middle Earth.
I'm sure some of you are going to get a kick out of this: http://www.avclub.com/article/patton-oswalt-wrote-53-masterful-tweets-welcoming--217368
The problem with outrage culture, why I agree with some examples and not others, is that, at it's core--it's fucking lazy. It's making radical, reductive assumptions with the click of a button. It doesn't cost you anything and best of all, you don't need to empathize with the person you're arguing. Better if there's a bunch of people who agree with you.
Noah's jokes were the obvious, painfully unfunny material you'd expect to see a local stand-up comedian perform, but he shouldn't lose his new gig over them. Thankfully, there isn't a movement for that to happen. From what I've seen, the reactions to the jokes seem to range from "Eh, those are gross" to disappointment that the next host of the Daily Show has a history of going after such low-hanging fruit (the overweight, Caster Semenya). At the same time, it seems like any response to a comedian's work is conflated with the most extreme response. You either take the joke regardless of its content or you're a deep breath perpetually offended puritan jihadist SJW calling for outright censorship deep breath; there can be no middle ground from which to dissect and discuss this type of humor. While I like Oswalt a lot, his need to come to the defense of Pure and Noble Comedy as if it's under constant attack is getting a little tiring. He's making generic arguments against perceived political correctness that don't actually apply to the situation.
We've now reached the point where there's serious outrage about so-called outrage culture. Which is totally outrageous.
Having said all that, I wish Trevor Noah well and hope he's a worthy successor to Stewart. He said those jokes don't represent him as a comedian, and I believe that.
What I am truly outraged about? The creeping infestation of our late night shows with foreigners. I mean a token Scotsman and his robot pal are one thing, but every time I turn around there is a new accent on my late night television. It's unnatural, and I am agin'it.
Again context. Remember kids: Only Sith Lords deal in absolutes.
Sometimes an awful, offensive joke can be funny, but other times an awful, offensive joke is just awful and offensive. Depends on the comedian. Depends on context.
Point four is key. The audience is pretty much king in these situations. Comedians here do gigs at working class mens clubs, and I promise you, they are not doing the same skits they do when they make it onto primetime BBC. But you don't get to be funny without practice and you don't get to find what's funny without hearing people laugh.
And you've got to eat so will tell the jokes that pay the bills.
The Daily Beast put out a good piece that examines both sides of the issue without being overly critical of Noah or caricaturing people who had issues with the material. Worth a read:
Back to Jon Ronson (who Paul C referred to earlier in the thread):
And Monica Lewinski's TED talk. Yes, it's reached that point.
THE PHOENIX RISES!!! Everyone loves the comeback/recovery/reversal narrative!
“I was Patient Zero of losing a personal reputation on a global scale almost instantaneously.”
Also fascinating... those who were complicit in BRUTALIZING her reputation for quick jokes and support of their own biases are now feeling guilt. All these years later.
I told her I was interested in her effort to re-emerge, and had been particularly fascinated by the reaction to it, as if there were a kind of public reckoning underway. Feminists who had stayed silent on the first go-round were suddenly defending her, using terms like “slut-shaming” and “media gender bias” to do it.
The late-night host David Letterman was on air expressing remorse over how he had mocked her, asking, in a recent interview with Barbara Walters, “With some perspective, do you realize this is a sad human situation?” Bill Maher said of reading Ms. Lewinsky’s piece in Vanity Fair, “I gotta tell you, I literally felt guilty.”
(nothing at all against Lewinsky getting some kind of retroactive benefit from coming back out in the spotlight to speak on these issues... but I can't help but also think about just how many handlers she's got working with her behind the scenes to make sure this all 'works' since there will still be PLENTY of pushback working to thwart any kind of 'comeback')
I was wondering about that too.
I mostly get this from the way she frames her story now (since I was a bit young and ignorant of all things political)... her decision seems to have been largely driven by legitimate feelings for Clinton back then. Young and naive, etc etc.
I don't think there's any intention of taking the responsibility out of her hands, but more of an attempt to apologize for how brutally she was treated. If there's any attempt to mark her as blameless, it'll be because the media (and we as a culture) are collectively incapable of doing anything in a measured fashion. That attempt would likely gotten to after a certain amount of 'penance escalation.' More of a side-effect than a focused intention.
If her REINVENTION INITIATIVE takes off and she suddenly becomes a media darling (whether it's largely to collectively apologize to her or mostly just vulturous well-wishers of the moment), I can totally see some calling for her to be COMPLETELY forgiven (while using it as an opportunity to attack the Clintons?). But that's people. Regular shitty people.
no free will