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Western Society, Pop Culture, and the Cacophony of Social Media - Page 47

post #2301 of 4671
Jesus.
post #2302 of 4671

I have no experience with eating disorders, but I have several co-workers and a close friend who have had to deal with it from their partners or daughters. Every single one of them insist these images do indeed 'trigger' the people affected.

 

Psychologically, they despise their bodies, and have to be taught the dangers, taught to actually 'see' themselves. And then girls like this appear, and are happy, and seemingly healthy and they compare themselves and all the work that's gone into fixing their mindset gets undone and they begin to act out the same behaviour again.

 

I agree 'triggering' is strange, but if you consider it to be a psychological condition, it's probably more accurate to use the word than the traditional SJW use of the word. It 'triggers' a undesirable change in your mindset you cannot control, much like PTSD.

 

My friend in particular is the the most socially aware, and anti censorship guy you could find. He's campaigned on freedom of speech issues as part of his job in the past. And even HE was for 'ban this filth'. My slippery slope comments just didn't wash with him. He actively thought this stuff was 'dangerous'.

 

The argument I did not make, because eating disorders are horrific and I'm not that much a wanker, is that it's a psychological condition. We don't change society to accomodate the delusions of the mentally ill, we isolate the mentally ill from society (in asylums as a last resort) and treat them.


Edited by flint - 10/28/16 at 9:27am
post #2303 of 4671

Comparison is exactly why eating disorders exist. Not just comparison toward what society deems is right, but also what close loved ones think is right. I say this because my sister listened to the small, incremental criticisms of my mother in high school and paid a price for it when she became anorexic. Young minds don't understand those kind of depths, and unfortunately a lot of people don't grow past that mental construct of materialism to see what it's all about. 

 

But this all comes from a much deeper place of the "I'm not enough" fear that is pretty rampant in today's mindset. And people reinforce that fear, not because they mean to, but because they don't know they are and haven't dissolved it on their own.

post #2304 of 4671
post #2305 of 4671

Thanks for posting.

 

When you award grades and scholorships to people on the basis of who can best express their grievences. And then you gather the top .001 % most gifted complainers and set them in competition with each other, this is what you can expect. 

post #2306 of 4671

Yeah....that e-mail was real dumb. 

post #2307 of 4671
Which email? The one that said "Let's maybe not make with the racism" or the one that said "Kids need to experiment. Let Them Fight?"

I feel like today's climate doomed both to failure.
post #2308 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

Which email? The one that said "Let's maybe not make with the racism" or the one that said "Kids need to experiment. Let Them Fight?"

I feel like today's climate doomed both to failure.

 

The latter.

 

EDIT: I really don't want to rehash that thoroughly hashed debate, but I will say that even if your sympathy lies with the rich white kids in blackface, "kids need to try being offensive idiots!" still seems like an incredibly dumb approach to take from a practical perspective in an internet era were that "hilarious" picture of you dressed like hip-hop Al Jolson and pounding watermelon and 40s can follow you right out of your "dabbling in racism" phase. 


Edited by Splatoon - 10/29/16 at 10:55am
post #2309 of 4671
That's fair. But who's gonna run down there and play Irony Police? Who decides what's appropriation and what's social commentary? Not us. We're not there. In their own way, both these emails represent attempts to keep engagement local and informed. I think we need a little more of your own classmates and community members telling you when to come correct and a little less listening to what the Internet says.
post #2310 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

That's fair. But who's gonna run down there and play Irony Police? Who decides what's appropriation and what's social commentary? Not us. We're not there. In their own way, both these emails represent attempts to keep engagement local and informed. I think we need a little more of your own classmates and community members telling you when to come correct and a little less listening to what the Internet says.

 

This is technically true, but I think that much like that op-ed it removes the important context of just how dumb and full of false-equivilances and non-issues that e-mail was, especially in the face of the original e-mail which offered a pretty benign suggestion (emphasis on suggestion) that students might want to think twice before wearing dumb racist shit. I'd encourage people to read both and draw their own conclusions. 

 

https://www.thefire.org/email-from-intercultural-affairs/

 

https://www.thefire.org/email-from-erika-christakis-dressing-yourselves-email-to-silliman-college-yale-students-on-halloween-costumes/

 

At the end of the day though, it all comes down to this:

 

Quote:
Nicholas says, if you don’t like a costume someone is wearing, look away, or tell them you are offended. Talk to each other. Free speech and the ability to tolerate offence are the hallmarks of a free and open society.

 

Whatever opinions she had about the value of free-speech at all costs were rendered hypocritically moot when she walked away from Yale to write op-eds from the comfortable security of who gives a fuck.

post #2311 of 4671
Isnt she just as right about the value of free speech and open dialogue in her message to the students no matter what she did with herself afterwards?
post #2312 of 4671

Another evil white male chiming in. I haven't checked but im sure his twitter is on fire. 

http://time.com/4549077/halloween-offensive-costumes/?xid=time_socialflow_facebook

post #2313 of 4671

To be fair to her, I don't think she WANTED to walk away from Yale.  Nor did she do that specifically in order to write op-eds.

post #2314 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

To be fair to her, I don't think she WANTED to walk away from Yale.  Nor did she do that specifically in order to write op-eds.

No I heard she did it to practice her first love, belly dancing.

post #2315 of 4671

did she really????

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post
 

Another evil white male chiming in. I haven't checked but im sure his twitter is on fire. 

http://time.com/4549077/halloween-offensive-costumes/?xid=time_socialflow_facebook

 

ohoohhoh, from a white male comic/radio personality, no less!  Not the most surprising opinion coming from him!

 

And yes, he does seem to have gotten the expected blowback from it.  But he's a comic.  He shoots right back.

 

I guess the guy is a Trump apologist too?  

https://www.reddit.com/r/opieandanthony/comments/4m2lia/so_why_does_jim_norton_defend_donald_trump_so_much/#bottom-comments

 

http://time.com/4102387/jim-norton-donald-trump-snl/  (from last November)

 

 

Seems like his twit would be on fire anyway.  And that's probably the way he likes it?


Edited by mcnooj82 - 10/29/16 at 3:29pm
post #2316 of 4671
Are racial Halloween costumes really that widespread a thing in the states? I don't think I've ever seen one over here, and the whole idea seems kind of weird. Normally I tend to lean towards the free speech side of things, but I don't know if that's really a hill worth dying on.

Re: the anorexia story, I have mixed feelings. I don't have a big issue with explicitly 'pro-ana/thinspo' stuff being banned or at the very least restricted to over-18s, cos I'm fairly sure quantifiable damage can be done there.

But if she really is a naturally tiny person just posting pictures of herself, I don't know... maybe I'm naive, but I had a friend who'd sometimes get accused of being anorexic, and she really was just built that way and minding her own business. I'd feel weird about it if she got banned from social media because it had been determined that she looked wrong.
post #2317 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

Isnt she just as right about the value of free speech and open dialogue in her message to the students no matter what she did with herself afterwards?

 

No initially, because her call for "free speech" came cloaked in a laughable attempt at moral relativity that tried to equate being a racist dickhead with exploration of culture, thus lending credibility to stupidity. No subsequently, because to say "hey minorities, just deal with it!" and then subsequently turn tail and run when you're on the receiving end highlights the inherent silliness of her initial claim that students should just ignore things that upset them. 

 

I'm a white guy, people make fun of us all the time. It's easy to laugh it off because at the end of the day, it doesn't affect my life one iota. The mockery that is, being white obviously helps me in a multitude of ways. I can't empathize with being in the position of being disadvantaged/marginalized/threatened because of my race, then subsequently mocked by the people doing it. What I can say, with pretty much 100% certainty, is I don't think it's a problem asking college students not to be racist. Which, to be clear, is the issue at hand here. Dressing like Mulan is not blackface. Dressing like a clown or whatever that idiot was writing about is not blackface. Broad discussions/hypotheticals/tangents: these can all be useful to a discussion, but not when used to hide an actual, specific problem. If you want to dress up in a racist costume, you're (generally) free to do so as long as it doesn't present an actual threat. I take exception however to masking it as some sort of learning experience or opportunity for personal growth for the people on the receiving end. Again, I can only speak hypothetically, but I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that most minorities in America have plenty of experience dealing with being offended, and worse. I don't think we need to condone rubbing it in their faces extra hard once a year. 

post #2318 of 4671
If what you're saying is fuck blackface, we can march in lockstep.

12 years from now someone's non-white HR rep is going to dredge up their Halloween choices. If they chose to ignore the first warning, and didn't engage with the kind of dialogue advocated by the second, fuck them.
post #2319 of 4671

My general impression (from very afar) remains that it was the timing and the general paternalistic 'whitesplainin' undertone that really set things off,  not some determination to be "hyper PC" or oversensitive at all times over Halloween costumes (even if that's the net appearance in the end).  From what I understand there was a lot of racial stuff buzzing around campuses across the country at that time.

Which is annoying because she doesn't seem to get it still (although an atmosphere of apparent faculty cowardice might something to note), which makes the whole thing doubly frustrating since no one's going to sit down and explain it and/or receive it since, at the time at least, everyone is sticking to some gun or other.  Perhaps the 'anniversary' will prompt a counter article or two that makes the picture a little clearer.

post #2320 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post
 

Another evil white male chiming in. I haven't checked but im sure his twitter is on fire. 

http://time.com/4549077/halloween-offensive-costumes/?xid=time_socialflow_facebook

 

I don't think I'd even read the initial e-mail from intercultural affairs back when this whole thing set off back when it did.  It just reads so reasonable to me.

 

It wasn't just that e-mail that prompted her to respond with the e-mail that eventually got her 'ousted' from Yale, was it?  It must've been everything else going on right then.

post #2321 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post

 

Which is annoying because she doesn't seem to get it still (although an atmosphere of apparent faculty cowardice might something to note), which makes the whole thing doubly frustrating since no one's going to sit down and explain it and/or receive it since, at the time at least, everyone is sticking to some gun or other.  Perhaps the 'anniversary' will prompt a counter article or two that makes the picture a little clearer.

 

Yup.

 

Quote:
 I had hoped to generate a reflective conversation among students: What happens when one person’s offense is another person’s pride? Should a costume-wearer’s intent or context matter? Can we always tell the difference between a mocking costume and one that satirizes ignorance? In what circumstances should we allow — or punish — youthful transgression?
 
Some called my email tone-deaf or even racist, but...
 
... that the content of my albeit imperfect message...

 

EDIT: This was her chance to say "yeah, I fucked up my messaging with that e-mail, here's what I should have said and I hope that doesn't get lost in the bruhaha." Instead we get Erkia Christakis, academic martyr. To pretend the actual wording of the message itself didn't contribute to the outcry is asinine. 


Edited by Splatoon - 10/29/16 at 4:40pm
post #2322 of 4671

everyone wants a piece of that VICTIMHOOD PIE

 

COIN OF THE REALM

post #2323 of 4671

I will preface this with 100% SPECULATION, but the references to religion in both the original e-mail and the Op-Ed also make me wonder if there isn't a bit of "well why do WE have to put up with this!" at play as well. It fits better in the Op-Ed, but the "what about sexy costumes!" bit from the original e-mail seemed oddly specific. 

post #2324 of 4671

Speaking of Halloween activities that misappropriate...  and a church-sponsored activity, of course!

 

http://www.newnownext.com/halloween-pulse-nightclub/10/2016/

 

Quote:
 

Hell houses are popular with evangelical Christians during Halloween—spooky attractions filled with the “horrors” of modern life—teen sex, drinking, homosexuality—and their infernal consequences.

Tyrone Tappler Productions, which organized “The Room, put out a call on Facebook earlier this year for volunteers willing to recreate the Pulse shooting.

“Club Pulse, Dancers, Victims … CAGED PEOPLE/SCREAMERS, Extras needed trying to escape a cage! … SOUNDS INTERESTING? COME OUT THIS SATURDAY!!!”

 

DESTROY THEM

post #2325 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatoon View Post
 

I'm a white guy

Well you certainly aren't passing through MY bridge. GO AROUND!

 

post #2326 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post
 

Well you certainly aren't passing through MY bridge. GO AROUND!

 

What kind of ruckus would it be if this was the other way around. 

post #2327 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

Speaking of Halloween activities that misappropriate...  and a church-sponsored activity, of course!

 

http://www.newnownext.com/halloween-pulse-nightclub/10/2016/

 

 

DESTROY THEM

Ha they are going to re-enact a gay nightclub? I hope some of the kids get really into it and scare their parents into therapy.

post #2328 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post
 

What kind of ruckus would it be if this was the other way around. 

A pretty big one but you are white, you get to go wherever you please including the moon DEAL WITH IT!

post #2329 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post
 

 you are white, you get to go wherever you please 

 

 

I'm going to watch my privilege the next time I try to cross a bridge that I'm not privileged to cross. 

post #2330 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post
 

 

 

I'm going to watch my privilege the next time I try to cross a bridge that I'm not privileged to cross. 

Typical white male, bet you don't even have to answer the troll's 3 questions. Women and minorities do!

post #2331 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post
 

Typical white male, bet you don't even have to answer the troll's 3 questions. Women and minorities do!

 

post #2332 of 4671
Aw, shit...y'all fed Carno after midnight.
post #2333 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

Aw, shit...y'all fed Carno after midnight.

Stay off my bridge!

post #2334 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

 

It wasn't just that e-mail that prompted her to respond with the e-mail that eventually got her 'ousted' from Yale, was it?  It must've been everything else going on right then.

Here's a slightly edited version what I wrote in another thread about this: 

 

This is a situation where nothing is happening in a vacuum and context really matters, both at the local (Yale) and national (college campuses generally) level. In interests of disclosing my own bias up front, I'm a straight white dude who generally (with a few exceptions) tends to side with student protestors and activists in these cases. But broadly, this is another example of tension between the baby boomer center-left and contemporary millennials, who tend to lean leftwards. And even within millennials, there's a divide between those that tend to side with, say, those opposed to trigger warnings and those who see them as useful. And it's all happening really fast - I started at college in 2002, finally graduating in 2015 with significant time off before starting again in 2011, and even from 2011-2015, I saw a lot of these changes play out. I'll try to keep this as jargon free as possible.

 

Context to consider:

 

--a move within millennials and current college students towards general distrust of systems of power that, though they may seem liberal or left, facilitate systemic racism and prop up systems of white, heterosexual, patriarchal power.

 

--massive, massive layoffs and cutbacks at universities across the country, both at the public and private level, which have tended to focus on departments that have less students majoring in them than others - not just Classics, but specific fields like African American studies, Latino studies, women's studies, LGBT studies, etc., as well as the closing down of centers or on-campus organizations dedicated to these things.

 

--greater acknowledgment and exploration regarding the fact that so many students of color strive throughout high school to get into a good college, and wind up dropping out within a couple of years or transferring to a smaller school because they lack the support they need within the university itself

 

--discussion of the canon of English literature/history/science, which tends to skew straight, white, and male, as well as broader questions of cultural appropriation

 

--political movements like BLM and events like the shooting in Charleston leading to protests/pushes to take down the Confederate flag, which in turn has led to broader questions about memorializing some of America's greatest racist assholes, from Andrew Jackson on the twenty to Woodrow Wilson's name on a school about global affairs at Princeton. 

 

--the rise of concepts like "trigger warnings" ("context warning" is really a better phrase) and "safe spaces," both of which have their legitimate uses.


--the prevalence of social media and news going viral leading to stories of cultural appropriation or racist as hell fraternity parties to gain national attention and pushback, which has led to a feeling that what is happening on one college is happening at all colleges, and which ties back the broader questioning of power in places that may seem left, but are really part of the same broader problem (see my first point)

 

--a tendency to intellectualize these concepts and intertwine them with ideas about transgression by the current tenured professor class, who are mostly middle-aged and have spent so much time intellectualizing their thoughts that they can be devoid of any consideration of the emotional impact.

 

--a trend within the media (usually by straight white gen x-ers) to report on all of the above as "PC culture run amok," running interviews with rich white dude Jerry Seinfeld complaining about college campuses, and a tendency (looking at you, Atlantic) to seize on the most extreme/crazy examples of this and paint the entire idea of trigger warnings/safe spaces as nonsense. 

So, when what happened at Yale happened, all of that was in the air. Many of the things listed above were issues at Yale, but in particular, Yale has a college/dorm for (I believe) freshman called Calhoun College, named for John Calhoun, the intellectual father of the Confederacy and basically one of the big all time American racists. Many students at that campus, rightfully so, felt that it was a little weird to be a person of color living in a dorm named after him. Each of these colleges/dorms has a professor in charge, kind of like the head of a household. They used to be called masters, but that's been done away with as of this year. The professor in charge is basically the adult in the building, responsible for his students' emotional and intellectual well-being. 

 

That's the context for the e-mail and letter we're discussing. Many students were offended by what they saw as an emotion-free response to a situation that had deep, rich, emotional signifigance for them. Some students felt betrayed that this was coming from someone who was tasked with being concerned with their well being, and were concerned that someone in a position of power had such a response to what was clearly an important issue. Protests against this got folded into some of the broader issues that were happening at Yale, specifically with regards to Calhoun College and the hiring of minority faculty, but the anti-"pc culture" writers at places like New York or the Atlantic blew it out and misrepresented it to make it seem like it was just about students being mad about Halloween costumes. 

post #2335 of 4671
post #2336 of 4671

ohohohohoho

 

why would anyone think that Duff WOULDN'T be problematic???  what an odd thing to suggest!

post #2337 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

ohohohohoho

 

why would anyone think that Duff WOULDN'T be problematic???  what an odd thing to suggest!

Right? I knew way back in the Lizzie Maguire days. Monster even dated Aaron Carter. I want an apology for that.

post #2338 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post
 

Right? I knew way back in the Lizzie Maguire days. Monster even dated Aaron Carter. I want an apology for that.

 

K.

post #2339 of 4671

well well well

 

(cracks knuckles)

 

time to destroy some more lives...

 

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2016/10/30/nodapl-water-protector-halloween-costumes-hit-social-media-166276

 

NoDAPL Costumes

post #2340 of 4671

It's not nice to make fun of children dressing up.

post #2341 of 4671

TONIGHT I DINE ON THE CRIES OF CHILDREN

post #2342 of 4671

But seriously, why are people so upset about others who don't know any better?

 

I don't think any of these people even are aware or are trying to outwardly offend people. 

post #2343 of 4671
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post
 

But seriously, why are people so upset about others who don't know any better?

 

I don't think any of these people even are aware or are trying to outwardly offend people. 

Really not an excuse these days.

 

Also, people like to get angry!

 

FEELS GOOD!

post #2344 of 4671

Yeah, about that anger. It ain't healthy.

 

You know what? It's a waste of time.

post #2345 of 4671

lots of stuff is a waste of time!

 

lots of stuff ain't healthy

 

FEELS GREAT THOUGH

post #2346 of 4671

Anger.  Power!

 

Feel superior!

post #2347 of 4671

ah... base human impulses!

 

post #2348 of 4671

Yes.

 

The ones that eventually lead to us falling down a pit to our doom.

post #2349 of 4671

our clones will take up the slack

post #2350 of 4671

Let's hire an assassin that can hire an assassin... to cover more ground!

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