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Western Society, Pop Culture, and the Cacophony of Social Media - Page 58

post #2851 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

Finding out that sailor kissing the nurse was not consensual has seriously been one of the biggest bummers of the internet age. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
 

 

Really?

 

 

This is what Political Correctness hath wrought!

 

#imwithmilo

post #2852 of 3162
I prefer Watchmen's take where the Silhouette and the nurse she kisses become a couple.
post #2853 of 3162
Thread Starter 

And then she's murdered in a hate crime. I fucking despise that movie.

post #2854 of 3162
Wasn't that element taken from the graphic novel?
post #2855 of 3162
Haha, oh Snyder.

In his defense, the nurse kiss is a movie addition, while I believe the hate crime was in the original graphic novel.
post #2856 of 3162
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Haha, oh Snyder.

In his defense, the nurse kiss is a movie addition, while I believe the hate crime was in the original graphic novel.

 

No. According to Rorschach's journal entry, she was killed by some guy out for revenge and that's it. No more details are given.

post #2857 of 3162
Ah. Your Watchmen fu is obviously superior to mine.
post #2858 of 3162
Ah. Well.

Snyder really is the worst.
post #2859 of 3162
Thread Starter 

To get back to the reason I quoted MichaelM, my issue is that I feel like it's a nothing situation that happened the better half of a century ago. It's an iconic image, yes, and images have power, but I'm not about to play six degrees of gender politics with it (not accusing MichaelM of doing that). It bores me just to think about it. 

post #2860 of 3162
In one of the pieces of backmatter from "Under the Hood" Mason writes that the Silhouette was outed as a lesbian by the papers, then murdered "along with her lover" by a former enemy. Want to say that Rorschach writes something to the effect that she was a victim of her decadent lifestyle, also.

So that one's not really on Visionary Director Zack Snyder. He's still the worst, though.
post #2861 of 3162

Well...I exaggerate. 

 

But it still a big bummer. That image had been part of the national pysche for decades, and was an iconic image associated with the win of a war we entered on pretty justifiable causes.

post #2862 of 3162
Here's the two talking by about the kiss. Totally casual, no big deal.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sailor-nurse-from-iconic-vj-day-photo-reunited/

Read into that what you will. And this whole thing to Johnny's chagrin.
post #2863 of 3162
"For a lot of people, the real assumption that they bring to the news, even beyond their partisan affiliations, is an expectation of a smooth narrative. They expect news stories to look like the movies or TV shows that they’re familiar with. Even if they’re regular journalism consumers, the stories they remember best are these well done stories that tell a compelling narrative and make them feel like they’re watching a movie or TV show.

In reality, stories are messy and have real loose ends. That’s the real bias that readers have to combat, and it’s something that people in the media have to think about. Because, on the one hand we want to provide good, compelling narratives, but on the other hand, we don’t want people to think they live in this world that’s made up of these easy, compelling narratives. They don’t."

http://www.niemanlab.org/2017/02/the-history-of-american-conspiracy-theories-holds-some-lessons-for-fake-news-debunkers-says-jessie-walker/
Edited by Agentsands77 - 2/12/17 at 11:12am
post #2864 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Here's the two talking by about the kiss. Totally casual, no big deal.

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/sailor-nurse-from-iconic-vj-day-photo-reunited/

Read into that what you will. And this whole thing to Johnny's chagrin.

But, like, he totally raped her, right? Maybe she just doesn't realize she's a victim? Quick, somebody start an investigation, I don't think there's enough information on the matter!
post #2865 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

It's an iconic image, yes, and images have power, but I'm not about to play six degrees of gender politics with it (not accusing MichaelM of doing that). It bores me just to think about it.
What kind of Internet progressive are you, Johnny?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

But, like, he totally raped her, right? Maybe she just doesn't realize she's a victim? Quick, somebody start an investigation, I don't think there's enough information on the matter!
Has Twitter heard about this yet!?
post #2866 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
 

To get back to the reason I quoted MichaelM, my issue is that I feel like it's a nothing situation that happened the better half of a century ago. It's an iconic image, yes, and images have power, but I'm not about to play six degrees of gender politics with it (not accusing MichaelM of doing that). 

 

One of the reasons finding out the real story bummed me out was a loss of innocence in a way. I won't bore you :) but I think it's big, generally unquestioned iconic images like this that often offer the most benefit from being deconstructed, as it helps to expose our own assumptions and built-in norms and biases.

 

I'm sort of a sap, and learning that this guy kissed her without permission or an existing relationship - and really thinking about how OK our culture has been with that kind of gesture for so long - is what bums me out. Not the "loss" of a "better time" but facing and accepting so much of what we took in growing up was toxic bullshit.

 

I'm glad the nurse in the photo is OK with it. It allows me to have a little bit of enjoyment of the image back. But it's still a photo of a man grabbing a woman without permission and violating her personal space and boundaries.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

But, like, he totally raped her, right? Maybe she just doesn't realize she's a victim? Quick, somebody start an investigation, I don't think there's enough information on the matter!

Without wanting to start any kind of battle of words, I find this sentiment kind of gross. It's not all or nothing.

post #2867 of 3162

I'm okay in my little 

 

 

safe space. With coloring books and puppies. Nobody can kiss me and rape on me in my safe space. 

post #2868 of 3162
Thread Starter 

I don't think you're funny enough to make that work, Carnotaur.

post #2869 of 3162

Fair enough.  If it's funny, it's not because of me. 

post #2870 of 3162

I see right through you, Carno!

 

 

Also, about that sailor and Greta Friedman's iconic kiss?  Friedman is fine.  But in her own words:

 

Quote:
 

“It wasn’t my choice to be kissed. The guy just came over and grabbed!”

“I did not see him approaching, and before I knew it, I was in this vice grip. [sic]”

“You don’t forget this guy grabbing you.”

“That man was very strong. I wasn’t kissing him. He was kissing me.”

Neither the narrative placed on the iconography of the photo at that time nor the more critical lens we could approach it with today is Friedman's personal narrative.  She almost describes it like a stealthy assault, but she went on with her life.  With the social mores of the era (and that VERY specific celebratory situation she was in), what else was she gonna do?

 

http://memory.loc.gov/diglib/vhp/story/loc.natlib.afc2001001.42863/transcript?ID=sr0001

post #2871 of 3162
It's good that she has that attitude about it, because it would seriously suck to have felt really violated, and then have to see the photographic evidence the rest of your life, not to mention the giant statue versions:



I think if it hadn't become an iconic image, it likely would've been forgotten by all involved.

Of course, people aren't terribly good at context, especially if there's an axe to grind. But if the rules were such that society at large didn't consider it a violation, and she didn't consider herself particularly violated, then it's tough to say it was "wrong", even if there's no way in hell it would fly today.
post #2872 of 3162

In this case, the only 'axe to grind' is the general notion that the guy's behavior in the photo would continue to be celebrated as a general thing men (or anyone) 'have the right to do.'

 

Particularly since the conventional perception of the photo has essentially rendered Friedman's part in it inconsequential.

post #2873 of 3162
Sure. We look at things differently now. I'm saying you can't retroactively apply that more stringent standard against a situation of mild seveverity under completely different social mores. If you had a time machine, would you go back and arrest him for it?
post #2874 of 3162
Yeah, just view it as a historical artifact. Like watching Goldfinger and imagining Bond is totally not raping Pussy Galore.
post #2875 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slim View Post

Sure. We look at things differently now. I'm saying you can't retroactively apply that more stringent standard against a situation of mild seveverity under completely different social mores. If you had a time machine, would you go back and arrest him for it?

No no, I agree with you about that.

 

My point was more that the actual subjects of the photo have long since become immaterial to this discussion.  A more powerful narrative superseded anything specific about the sailor and Friedman.  It doesn't matter that they weren't a couple.  It doesn't matter that they're not really friends.  It doesn't matter that the sailor's girlfriend/fiance was there at the time.  It doesn't matter that she wasn't a nurse (but a civilian dental assistant).  It doesn't matter that she wasn't a willing participant in the kiss.  So it feels a bit disingenuous when any hint of a discussion on the matter in regard to a contemporary reappraisal of the photo suddenly leads to defenses of "well she was cool with it!  so why don't we all calm down???"    

 

oh, so NOW her individual opinion suddenly matters?

 

The photo is essentially an piece of art that is there to be critically discussed within its own context as well as our current one.  Its subjects are but one aspect of it.

 

Nobody needs to be arrested or shamed (I don't think there's anyone reasonable who is trying to argue that).  But I see nothing wrong with deconstructing aspects of the narrative the photo represents now and how less acceptable parts of it can be perpetuated through it.

post #2876 of 3162
I get you. But the part where the particular circumstances of the photo don't matter is what I think really... um, matters. I meant "axe to grind" in the spirit of this thread. There are countless examples of bad male behavior to point to, but I think this gets added to the pile a lot by people who delight in poking holes in things.

"Isn't that VJ Day picture of the sailor and nurse charming?"

"Well, acually-- what you're really looking at is assault, you know."

"Gee, I didn't know that. I thought they were a couple or something. But now I know. Thanks, asshole. I mean it happened 70 fucking years ago and no harm was done, but I'm glad you've clued me in so you could make your point about how rotten everything is. I'm a better person for it."
post #2877 of 3162

that's what this thread is for though!

 

RUINING THINGS!!!

 

 

It's a great iconic photo!  Until you ZOOM IN and ENHANCE his KUNG FU GRIP on HER FACE!

 

post #2878 of 3162
I feel like the Simpsons succinctly summarized this in 1990.

post #2879 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

that's what this thread is for though!

RUINING THINGS!!!


It's a great iconic photo!  Until you ZOOM IN and ENHANCE his KUNG FU GRIP on HER FACE!



"There's a VJ Day celebration in my sheets."
post #2880 of 3162
I think we're getting off the real message, which is that Zack Snyder is terrible and his take on Watchmen should've seen him in the Hague.
post #2881 of 3162
Quote:
So, to summarize: in the past fifty years, education costs have doubled, college costs have dectupled, health insurance costs have dectupled, subway costs have at least dectupled, and housing costs have increased by about fifty percent. US health care costs about four times as much as equivalent health care in other First World countries; US subways cost about eight times as much as equivalent subways in other First World countries.

I worry that people don’t appreciate how weird this is. I didn’t appreciate it for a long time. I guess I just figured that Grandpa used to talk about how back in his day movie tickets only cost a nickel; that was just the way of the world. But all of the numbers above are inflation-adjusted. These things have dectupled in cost even after you adjust for movies costing a nickel in Grandpa’s day. They have really, genuinely dectupled in cost, no economic trickery involved.

[ . . . ]

I mentioned politics briefly above, but they probably deserve more space here. Libertarian-minded people keep talking about how there’s too much red tape and the economy is being throttled. And less libertarian-minded people keep interpreting it as not caring about the poor, or not understanding that government has an important role in a civilized society, or as a “dog whistle” for racism, or whatever. I don’t know why more people don’t just come out and say “LOOK, REALLY OUR MAIN PROBLEM IS THAT ALL THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS COST TEN TIMES AS MUCH AS THEY USED TO FOR NO REASON, PLUS THEY SEEM TO BE GOING DOWN IN QUALITY, AND NOBODY KNOWS WHY, AND WE’RE MOSTLY JUST DESPERATELY FLAILING AROUND LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS HERE.” State that clearly, and a lot of political debates take on a different light.

For example: some people promote free universal college education, remembering a time when it was easy for middle class people to afford college if they wanted it. Other people oppose the policy, remembering a time when people didn’t depend on government handouts. Both are true! My uncle paid for his tuition at a really good college just by working a pretty easy summer job – not so hard when college cost a tenth of what it did now. The modern conflict between opponents and proponents of free college education is over how to distribute our losses. In the old days, we could combine low taxes with widely available education. Now we can’t, and we have to argue about which value to sacrifice.

[ . . . ]

If we give everyone free college education, that solves a big social problem. It also locks in a price which is ten times too high for no reason. This isn’t fair to the government, which has to pay ten times more than it should. It’s not fair to the poor people, who have to face the stigma of accepting handouts for something they could easily have afforded themselves if it was at its proper price. And it’s not fair to future generations if colleges take this opportunity to increase the cost by twenty times, and then our children have to subsidize that.

http://slatestarcodex.com/2017/02/09/considerations-on-cost-disease/
post #2882 of 3162

oh yeah, this guy!

post #2883 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

oh yeah, this guy!
The one and the same!

He's better when talking economics and science than he is when he's talking about social interaction.
post #2884 of 3162

se7en_jpg_640x360_upscale_q85.jpg

post #2885 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

Greed.
He discusses that in the full-length piece. He thinks that while there is reason to believe that price gouging is a factor, it is an insufficient explanation for the phenomenon.
post #2886 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

I see right through you, Carno!

 

 

Also, about that sailor and Greta Friedman's iconic kiss?  Friedman is fine.  But in her own words:

 

Neither the narrative placed on the iconography of the photo at that time nor the more critical lens we could approach it with today is Friedman's personal narrative.  She almost describes it like a stealthy assault, but she went on with her life.  With the social mores of the era (and that VERY specific celebratory situation she was in), what else was she gonna do?

 

http://memory.loc.gov/diglib/vhp/story/loc.natlib.afc2001001.42863/transcript?ID=sr0001

 

Hahaha!

 

Reading the transcript, it comes across as Greta just being factual about the event. Describing how it happened. Not necessarily how she felt, though when she gets close to how it felt she explains the kiss away with the backstory behind the kiss; how it was just the elation of the sailor. I have no doubt she was surprised. Also, the thing about pictures is they last longer than the time it took the action to occur, which can often times be a bit deceiving in its perception.  

post #2887 of 3162
post #2888 of 3162

Oh man Milo's head just exploded.

post #2889 of 3162
Quote:
I mentioned politics briefly above, but they probably deserve more space here. Libertarian-minded people keep talking about how there’s too much red tape and the economy is being throttled. And less libertarian-minded people keep interpreting it as not caring about the poor, or not understanding that government has an important role in a civilized society, or as a “dog whistle” for racism, or whatever. I don’t know why more people don’t just come out and say “LOOK, REALLY OUR MAIN PROBLEM IS THAT ALL THE MOST IMPORTANT THINGS COST TEN TIMES AS MUCH AS THEY USED TO FOR NO REASON, PLUS THEY SEEM TO BE GOING DOWN IN QUALITY, AND NOBODY KNOWS WHY, AND WE’RE MOSTLY JUST DESPERATELY FLAILING AROUND LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS HERE.” State that clearly, and a lot of political debates take on a different light.

 

 

It's interesting stuff.  I suspect there'll be a few reactions that say he's simply getting inflation wrong though.  I don't know if that's actually true, by any means.  I think the assumption would be a failure to properly account for the exponential factor of inflation on multiple facets of each price rather than the raw inflationary change in dollar value.

Maybe he did or is using sources that account for that.  I can't really tell right now.  It's a good thing to point out anyway.  I think people just assume that it is inflation and that's just how it is without looking all that hard at it  (it's a little like how trends in manufacturing have led to cripplingly low expectations for the durability of products and now that's just normal.  If your thing broke and you want to fix it people just say  "well it is an old machine (at like two years!).  Just buy another one".  This doesn't seem to alarm nearly enough people and stuff lasting for decades is something only old people talk about.  Like really low prices too.  "Prices go up.  That's what happens"  people say and move on. )

 

It's interesting from a Aus persepctive, since we tell just about the same story.  Being a 'battler' is a fairly big cultural component anyway, so a certain sense of constant financial stress happens regardless of where you are in society.  But we do get told that America is better because it's so deregulated by comparison,  has less welfare and so forth (they used to say less healthcare too, but I think the Obamacare battle got enough coverage that we took the chance to feel smug on that score).  All of our very high minimum wages and big distances are gradually choking us.  But the core mystery seems to be the same:  there's so much more money swirling around now and it never seems to be enough and living conditions have plateaued or are dropping.  Where is it all going?

post #2890 of 3162
post #2891 of 3162
So she cracked a bad joke and every asshole in the internet-sized room took a swipe at her?
post #2892 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post

But the core mystery seems to be the same:  there's so much more money swirling around now and it never seems to be enough and living conditions have plateaued or are dropping.  Where is it all going?
My (unverified) suspicion is this, somewhat dovetailing with the article above: our legal, social, and economic systems are illogical and overcomplicated, a nightmarish web built largely of unintended consequences. There's no single factor driving cost disease, just a bunch of smaller irrationalities and inefficiencies compiled together.

At one point that piece asks whether markets just don't really work. I suspect that there's something to that once you get to a certain point of market complexity.
post #2893 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
 

 

.  But the core mystery seems to be the same:  there's so much more money swirling around now and it never seems to be enough and living conditions have plateaued or are dropping.  Where is it all going?

 

Keep in mind that more people have risen from poverty in the last 30 years than in the history of the Human race. Think about that for a second. 

 

That took place under a "Pax Americana" and Globalization. 

 

Now there is a collective withdrawal from Globalization underway, with seemingly every nation determined to withdraw into themselves. 

 

So expect inflation to pick up across the board: I think the world is going to be a real ugly place going forward. 

 

Re: "So much money swirling around", well yes and no. Yes there is a huge amount of money that people are trying to invest in, yet at the same time, debt levels are even higher. 

 

I'm sure we all know people who live way beyond their means. I mean the people who take out second and third mortgages on their homes so they can fly around the world on vacation. 

 

Underfunded pensions at both corporations and local and state governments are a huge issue. One that's going to explode in the next ten years. And the pension fund managers know this, so they frantically invest in hedge funds and "alternative investments" to capture higher returns. But the opportunities aren't there, not at the scale these funds need, plus there are too many funds chasing these "low" returns. 

 

This can make hedge fund managers very rich. Then you have people (entertainers, software developers, etc) who can become multi millionaires and billionaires because they make something that essentially costs zero to distribute so it's pure profit (think Lady Gaga) that millions of people will pay for. 

 

NOW, add the cacophony of Social Media to the mix. We can know, in nauseating detail, exactly how the mega wealthy live (here's a quote from Fortune: "Steve Schwarzman's 70th birthday bash included trapeze artists, acrobats, camels, Mongolian soldiers, multiple Trump cabinet nominees, Gwen Stefani, the Jersey Boys, and a who's who of private equity on the "American Riviera."

 

We can also learn, in detail, about the miserable lives of the "have nots". 

 

I can see all this exploding into a "French Revolution" scenario at some point. I can also see people simply dismissing the bullshit at some point, where they view the constant pressure to show flash as bullshit. But I'm probably too optimistic. 

post #2894 of 3162
post #2895 of 3162

Good for him.

post #2896 of 3162

when you 'sell out' to a corporation but still want to be 'edgy'

 

http://kotaku.com/disney-drops-pewdiepie-over-anti-semitic-jokes-1792324412

post #2897 of 3162
What an absolute fucknuckle. He didn't think the guys would hold up a "Death to Jews" sign? Why did he choose that message in particular?

What a useless human being. Shit diddler.
post #2898 of 3162
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post

Why did he choose that message in particular?

 

because it's fuuuuuuuuunny!  edgily so!

post #2899 of 3162

Fuck Pewdiepie.

 

Now and forever. 

post #2900 of 3162

But he still gets to keep the Youtube channel where he makes like 6 million a year right? If so I don't know if he is learning any lessons.

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