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Western Society, Pop Culture, and the Cacophony of Social Media - Page 8

post #351 of 4805
I ADORE Calvin & Hobbes.

Reading this today in someone's FB feed, I (topically) wondered what the response would be if Calvin weren't a white male...

http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2015/04/10?utm_source=ch-fb&utm_medium=socialmarketing&utm_campaign=social
post #352 of 4805
On my phone so can't link but for your daily outrage just Google Clorox in your news tab.

Cannibalizing indeed.
post #353 of 4805

ehehehehe

 

That's what these old brands DESERVE for trying to be HIP & EDGY!!!!!

post #354 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post

On my phone so can't link but for your daily outrage just Google Clorox in your news tab.

Cannibalizing indeed.

Another case where everyone's being kind of dumb.

post #355 of 4805

Anyone read about the small incident that Kamau Bell wrote about a few months ago?

 

http://www.wkamaubell.com/2015/01/happy-birthday-have-some-racism-from-elmwood-cafe/

 

He discussed it on his Denzel Washington podcast on a miscellaneous episode.  He begins with the unfortunate incident, but moved onto the way the discussion online degraded in the way that this thread has gone over and over again.

 

http://denzelwashington.wolfpop.com/audio/20940/twitter-chat   (starts around minute 7:00)

 

Everybody goes DUMB.  Even those who are 'on his side.'

 

Getting people fired.  Leaving negative Yelp reviews.  Questioning why his wife is white.  Etc.

post #356 of 4805

Wow. That escalation is nuts. Nobody wins.

post #357 of 4805

Gotta say, though, I'm not a fan of Bell wanting to have a "public converstation" with the cafe owner about how to "fix this." That seems more like something you'd do with a place hanging a Whites Only sign.

post #358 of 4805
I don't think a place that would have a WHITES ONLY sign would ever consider agreeing to have a public discussion.
post #359 of 4805

True dat. But I think a place reeling from a minor incident that apparently happened between one or two employee and a customer that has had major implications might be a bit gun-shy too. 

post #360 of 4805
If the restaurants' management is savvy, they would come forward and put forth a disclaimer about the insidiousness of institutional racism that many don't know they even engage in and say that they'll make efforts towards training employees to be more mindful of such situations.

Apparently, the restaurant panicked and just rushed to fire the employee but won't accept a very civil invitation from a somewhat public figure? (I don't know how well Kamau Bell is known)

Everyone goes stupid. Or just the loud ones do.
post #361 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

Anyone read about the small incident that Kamau Bell wrote about a few months ago?

 

http://www.wkamaubell.com/2015/01/happy-birthday-have-some-racism-from-elmwood-cafe/

 

He discussed it on his Denzel Washington podcast on a miscellaneous episode.  He begins with the unfortunate incident, but moved onto the way the discussion online degraded in the way that this thread has gone over and over again.

 

http://denzelwashington.wolfpop.com/audio/20940/twitter-chat   (starts around minute 7:00)

 

Everybody goes DUMB.  Even those who are 'on his side.'

 

Getting people fired.  Leaving negative Yelp reviews.  Questioning why his wife is white.  Etc.

 

 

As far as the initial incident, there's a lot of nuance and detail that is left out: 

 

- why is the anonymous customer getting off scot free? 

- WAS there someone out there harrassing patrons?
 

- if there was, but they focused on Bell, yeah, bad move. But if not, was there anyone else engaging in behavior that looked like it could be harrassing? 

 

I mean, let's look at it this way - you're told someone is harrassing the customers outdoor in your dining area; you look out and the only person you see not eating or sitting at a table is standing there with a laptop open looking like he's trying to sell something. I'd say telling that person to GTFO is probably a natural, non-racist reaction. 

post #362 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavez View Post
 

 

 I'd say telling that person to GTFO is probably a natural, non-racist reaction. 

Nope.  

 

I think this is entering into the realm of "they didn't mean it to be racist, so it's not racist" dodge.  A 'natural' reaction doesn't automatically absolve such behavior.

 

Public places like restaurants and markets in a big city are prone to attracting unwanted people who may be coming around to ask for change or sell something, sure.  I know this is something that can indeed happen because I also work at a restaurant/market where this happens from time to time.  And as someone who has had to 'shoo away' such individuals in my lesser days, I fully admit to getting to a point where I got an itchy trigger finger the very moment I saw any situation that looked like that.  And shamefully, I don't doubt that one of the 'metrics' I used to gauge such situations was skin color.  And not fully consciously.  In my mind, I was basing it on a pattern I thought I saw that was likely more confirmation bias more than anything.  

 

You put up with a certain amount of 'disruptive behavior' that reflects poorly on a place of business, and it's natural to get numb to the nuances of it very easily.  So to a certain extent, I understand the 'cause' of a situation like this.  Doesn't make it ok.

 

But compared to this story, what I have done differently is that when someone has politely called me out on it, I admitted to my biases and apologized sincerely.  

 

The employee in the story tried to dodge it in a textbook fashion that Bell and his wife had also become numbed to.  And if you accept Bell's telling of the story, the employee said nothing about thinking that Bell was someone who had already been causing a disturbance before.  There was no attempt to evaluate the situation and handle it politely.  It was just a straight-up "GET OUTTA HERE!" that you'd say to a mangy dog from the window.

 

And then there's this portion of Bell's recounting of the story:

 

Quote:
 For example, when we had breakfast that morning, there was a white guy with dreadlocks sitting directly across from your doorway spare change-ing everyone who went into and out of your restaurant. And I could understand if a business thought he was bothering people and if that business had asked him to leave. But he was there the entire time we had breakfast, at least an hour, and I didn’t see anyone tell him to, “SCRAM!”
 

 

Also, whoever the anonymous customer that may have notified the employee of that situation probably is getting off scott free because they're ANONYMOUS.  And Bell never saw that person.

post #363 of 4805
post #364 of 4805
Phone. Jon Ronson. Google.

You're welcome.

Fuck He Who Shall Not Be Named for his outrage over shit like this. He and his cohort are the architects of this bullshit.
post #365 of 4805
I could only find a vague Twitter from him.

What's the deal?
post #366 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

I could only find a vague Twitter from him.

What's the deal?

He wrote an article on BadAss about how all this outrage over comedy is problematic and potentially stifles creativity.

Honestly, I think this thread is getting......"problematic."
post #367 of 4805
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ska Oreo View Post

He wrote an article on BadAss about how all this outrage over comedy is problematic and potentially stifles creativity.

Honestly, I think this thread is getting......"problematic."

I imagined it would, which is kind of what it's here for to a degree. Elaborate on problematic if you wish.
post #368 of 4805
Thread Starter 
Though I will confess that the outrage against the outrage echo chamber can be grating. I would hope that my intent in creating it is not lost, in the sense that I wanted to dive into the complexity of its (admittedly broad) subject.

This cannot, and should not, be all about political divisions. We have a whole subforum for that.
post #369 of 4805
Not DF, Ska, Jon Ronson.

Wrote a book about shaming the shamers apparently. In an early draft he had a line comparing men getting fired to women getting raped. He edited it out of the published work.

Shit has predictably hit the fan on Twitter and DF cannot believe it.

Ignore my politics and let me rage lonely on these boards. Talk amongst yourselves about the bullshit that is going on. I was more pointing out the OotD. Outrage of the Day.
post #370 of 4805
I'm reading that book right now.

It's pretty interesting to revisit all these people who have been screwed over to varying degrees by the current social shaming industrial complex.
post #371 of 4805

I'm about 2/3rds into it. It's not the last word on this subject but it's interesting and entertaining.

 

I do find it quite funny that by writing a book about people accidentally poking the hornets nest he's managed to accidentally poke the hornets nest first for being too hard on Adria Richards, then for being too soft on Jonah Lehrer, and now for being dismissive of rape based on the wilful misreading of a poorly wooded sentence that isn't even in the final book.

 

Some people have accused Ronson of triggering this latest scuffle on purpose as a publicity stunt and to prove a point, which he denies. But so what if he did? It *does* prove his point.

 

I mean, look at the tweet that kicked this off - the casual way the fuse is lit, and the flood of responses where anything level-headed gets buried in an ocean of knee-jerk vitriol. That's how it starts, and all it takes is for bloggers and the press to pick up on it for some easy hits, and before you know it it's solidified as part of the cultural conversation. Which only gives more power to tweets like the one that started it all, which is why we'll probably get three more of these by the end of the week.

 

Edit: Some more of Twitter just doin' it's thing


Edited by Paul C - 4/14/15 at 4:32am
post #372 of 4805

OotD status is enough to make sure that I skim the kerfuffle and then go on about my day because people are stupid.  What irks me is when self-proclaimed leftists decry "thought policing" when the very idea of thought policing is borne out of leftist ideology and given form in hate crimes legislation and hate speech outcry.  When, as the right has pointed out for years, hate speech typically equates only to "that which I do not agree with" when you finally go all Idiocracy with it.

 

These sorts of responses to the crop of OotD cycles are simply hate crimes/hate speech/PC turned up to 11.  The monster is out and it is devouring its own tail.  The incredulity that people could act this way when the end result of such policies and ideas was quite plain to see is just mind boggling.

 

It's seen in the American Sniper screening bit on the college campus... colleges, once the bastion of idea challenging, have turned into insulated leftist thought tanks where anything that hurts the fee-fees of the charges is immediately bullied into silence.

 

I will give He Who Shall Not Be Named credit for one line of thinking even though it appears to be quite too little too late, it's that using those sorts of tactics only emboldens the other side to use the same tactics when they want their way and you get into a circular fight of cacophany and blame which obscures the real threats.

post #373 of 4805

THINKPIECE! On the Jon Ronson flareup.

post #374 of 4805

Mmmmm...thinkpieces.

 

One part in that did stand out to me.

 

Quote:
 "But I think there’s a bigger problem here — not just a misunderstanding or disagreement about what the sentence says, but a problem with how we figure out what and who to be mad at. When Trevor Noah nearly went down in flames over some tweets from six years ago, few people mentioned that the person who called him out had to comb through 9,000 tweets to find something sinister. There’s something very unsettling about someone pawing through your dirty laundry to find the dirtiest sock. It’s an ugly version of our sanctimony, that we desperately search for something to be angry about, and then reserve our mercy only for their reply. If they reply correctly, great, they get the mercy. But until then, they’re trampled under foot."

 

This is what worries me the most.  The fact that these things are started by people actively looking for things to be mad about.  It's manufactured outrage, pure and simple.  

 

And goddammit I just can't figure out how this catches on.  Maybe it's because Millenials are so beset by problems that they can't fix like rampant unemployment and crushing student loans that they're desperately looking for things they can fix?

 

All I know is Twitter needs to be nuked from orbit.  All it seems good for is knee jerk reactions to whatever sets people off that day.

post #375 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Codename View Post

 

This is what worries me the most.  The fact that these things are started by people actively looking for things to be mad about.  It's manufactured outrage, pure and simple.  

 

And goddammit I just can't figure out how this catches on.  Maybe it's because Millenials are so beset by problems that they can't fix like rampant unemployment and crushing student loans that they're desperately looking for things they can fix?

 

It's because Millenials were raised not with logic and the idea that the world isn't fair, they were raised with their emotions and feelings and their precious self-esteem being the most paramount thing in their lives.  They were raised that they were special snowflakes who have been given no resistance to their lives and now they must rage at anything that doesn't conform to their individual worldviews.

post #376 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Codename View Post

 

All I know is Twitter needs to be nuked from orbit.  All it seems good for is knee jerk reactions to whatever sets people off that day.

 

I'm not a Luddite by any measure but part of me agrees with this. Twitter tends to encourage a lot mike drops and not a lot of genuine dialogue and reflection.

post #377 of 4805
Wait. So that line wasn't in the final release of the book?

I feel like I read that part. Or is my brain playing tricks on me and creating a false memory?

Interesting that it started from a tweet by Meredith Haggarty, who was recently involved with some of this herself on the TLDR podcast. That was a pretty uncomfortable interview!
post #378 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Wait. So that line wasn't in the final release of the book?

I feel like I read that part. Or is my brain playing tricks on me and creating a false memory?
 

That is odd. A load of people replied to the tweet that they noticed and hated that bit. So either it's in some version of the release of the book or people are so addicted to being angry that they're just making shit up.

post #379 of 4805

It sounds like it's in a "galley" version or something, which I'm piecing together is sort of like the 'slightly unedited press screening' version of books.

post #380 of 4805
Yeah my brain was playing tricks.

It's not there. But even if it were, I think I'd have passed it by. I can see what he was attempting to say.

You guys should look up the small TLDR and Meredith Haggarty controversy.
post #381 of 4805
So wait. Why the ire towards Devin for the Ronson situation? He's criticising the rage mob, not Ronson.
post #382 of 4805
The Ingsoc of Orwell's 1984 had the ritual of the Two Minutes Hate in order to give the people an outlet. It wasn't about imposing something on the public, it was about redirecting what they had inside them in order to prevent them from doing something useful with it. I didn't understand that until Twitter came along.
post #383 of 4805
Thread Starter 
This is inspiring a great idea for a comic book supervillain: Syntax Man. He's a disgruntled magazine editor who fell into a vat of radioactive waste, gaining the ability to slightly rearrange sentence structures at will. His schemes often involve opening up a chain of coffee shops with wi-fi, and then using his powers to effect the articles and tweets his clientele are browsing. They get whipped into such a frenzy that they neglect to notice the OUTRAGEOUS prices he charges for his substandard gourmet coffee and artisanal toast.
post #384 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

The Ingsoc of Orwell's 1984 had the ritual of the Two Minutes Hate in order to give the people an outlet. It wasn't about imposing something on the public, it was about redirecting what they had inside them in order to prevent them from doing something useful with it. I didn't understand that until Twitter came along.
Bread, circuses and.... ECHO CHAMBERS!
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

This is inspiring a great idea for a comic book supervillain: Syntax Man. He's a disgruntled magazine editor who fell into a vat of radioactive waste, gaining the ability to slightly rearrange sentence structures at will. His schemes often involve opening up a chain of coffee shops with wi-fi, and then using his powers to effect the articles and tweets his clientele are browsing. They get whipped into such a frenzy that they neglect to notice the OUTRAGEOUS prices he charges for his substandard gourmet coffee and artisanal toast.
He simply changes his criminal record of KIDNAPPING to KID NAPPING and everyone thinks he's harmless.
post #385 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post
 

 

It's because Millenials were raised not with logic and the idea that the world isn't fair, they were raised with their emotions and feelings and their precious self-esteem being the most paramount thing in their lives.  They were raised that they were special snowflakes who have been given no resistance to their lives and now they must rage at anything that doesn't conform to their individual worldviews.

 

I'm a millenial and I fucking hear this all the time.  While it may be partly true, I don't think it's fair to blame all this outrage culture on them.  Half of the time it seems like some stuffy old hippie who writes things like "I grew up in the 60s, I smoked a few joints at a Stones show so I know what it means to be a rebel" then goes batshit on somebody who said the word cunt. 

 

Millenials are easy targets because we are young, and the youngest are always the most obnoxious, but shaming isn't something new.  The technology to shame somebody has changed so rapidly in the past 10 years and we have been at the absolute forefront of that.  It's still really bizarre to think of a "Computer Lab" when every room that has more than 10 kids with a cell phone can also be called a "Computer Lab"  Don't pin this on us, old people can be cunts as well. 

post #386 of 4805
Let me amend that to not only include Millenials but also a good portion of Generation X.

I get what you're saying but the point still stands that Generation X forward was raised with some extremely questionable ideas of what it means to interact with the world at large.
post #387 of 4805
When you can express your venom publicly without the effort of a picket line, attending a town hall meeting, or sending a hand-written letter to Dear Abby, the vocal minority has grown substantially. It's typically the tech-savvy, with a few exceptions. And theyre typically those who grew up with it.
post #388 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post

Let me amend that to not only include Millenials but also a good portion of Generation X.

I get what you're saying but the point still stands that Generation X forward was raised with some extremely questionable ideas of what it means to interact with the world at large.

 

I don't think you're wrong, it's definitely a "Modern" view that isn't entirely realistic.  I think it has something to do more with money honestly. 

post #389 of 4805

All of which goes back to the reason this thread started (I think).  Social media protest is the laziest form of protest. As one of the oldest of the millenials, every lazy bastard who complains through social media and yet still sits on the couch means nothing to me. The friends who post stuff that I tolerate are the ones who at least go join a political campaign, attend a town hall, or actively write (in longer than 140 characters or not a reposted blog) the movers and shakers who can have an impact. They complain and then take an action longer than retweeting or liking a post. 

 

We, as a society, have got to do more than shout angry words into the internet. Those words need to turn into action, otherwise the actors will listen in disgust and do what they seem right because at least they are actively involved, unlike those mouthy bastards on the web.

 

:::step off soapbox:::

 

Sorry for the rant. I had a similiar conversation today with some whining students who were protesting the nature of their grades today. I asked how many of them had actively opened the textbook before the exam. The number did not please me, nor make their case for my injustice.

post #390 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrTyres View Post

 

 

 Social media protest is the laziest form of protest. As one of the oldest of the millenials, every lazy bastard who complains through social media and yet still sits on the couch means nothing to me. 

 

"Slacktivism" is one of my favorite new words. "Oh I signed an internet petition!"; "Good job, yer a regular Malcolm X" 

post #391 of 4805

The REAL test of the Marvel brand.

 

How much will the general affection towards the characters/cast of their movies will SHIELD them from the blowback to something like this???

 

 

 

 

And then there's this... where very few have any affection towards Sandler's current work:

 

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2015/04/23/native-actors-walk-set-adam-sandler-movie-after-insults-women-elders-160110

post #392 of 4805
The guys who were joking probably didn't mean any harm in either case. Both incidents are probably good examples, though, of the idea that focusing on intent can be just a way of ignoring impact, trying to make it about the offender's feelings rather than the offendee's.

Evans and Renner have both offered apologetic public statements since the video of their interview started making the rounds.
post #393 of 4805

Oh yea... Renner's wording reads like a total brush-off in text.

 

To be fair (to a minimal extent), I can't even begin to imagine having to sit and answer inane fluff questions for hours and hours.  I'd get loopy and say whatever awful thing in my mind just because. I'm surprised stuff like this doesn't happen more often.

post #394 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

And then there's this... where very few have any affection towards Sandler's current work:

http://indiancountrytodaymedianetwork.com/2015/04/23/native-actors-walk-set-adam-sandler-movie-after-insults-women-elders-160110
Native Americans, if you can put some kind of ancient Indian curse on Adam Sandler, I will personally see to it that the government gives you guys the entire goddamn country back.
post #395 of 4805
post #396 of 4805

This could be me grossly oversimplifying an astronomically complex issue, but I always keep going time, after time, after time in all this back to... wait for it... 9/11.

Yeah I know: give me a sec.

Unlike so many people in my rough age bracket, I don't in the least bit have a rose colored view of the 80s and 90s: I know and remember all too painfully well how plenty of shit in this country was well beyond dysfunctional to start with all during my adolescence, from issues stretching countless years before I ever first drew breath. But speaking as someone who was something of a news/pop cultural junkie since a very early age, it honestly felt like SOMETHING particularly fragile and important got knocked loose in the national psyche from that particular tragedy, and almost everything that's been happening since then still, to me, feels like a gigantic snowball effect that's still playing itself out even now.

I think that even ties into the "outrage/thinkpiece" culture of today as well. It was rightfully pointed out earlier that for a significant chunk of people, the early to mid 2000s felt like a much more unified time to be left-leaning, because of how insanely over the edge the right had gotten. The bad side of that was how polarized it made everything (that was when I first really noticed to how much a significant degree nuance was being hurled out the window on a mass scale) but more than that even, I think what we're witnessing in the trend of "the left eating itself" is a direct result of a very painful fact that I don't think has really set in for most people yet:

In the great "culture war" of the Bush years, the left lost. Stone cold lost. We lost, the damage we tried to stymie from the right was done, and done directly over our protesting, and when it really counted most we proved to be completely impotent and ineffectual on the national stage for the whole world to see. I think the left turning on itself is, on some level at least, a direct fallout of this. This is how dirty-hippie/bleeding-heart liberals play out the "not taking losing well" angle: by devolving into every obscene parody from the early/mid 90s about "political correctness hounds" brought to life. As has been said, its pure animal instinct taking over: we've been thoroughly beaten and had all our power taken away from us, so the primal part of our brain needs to "reclaim" control over SOMETHING, no matter how laughably unimportant it may be. 

Creating this "outrage culture" is a way for the powerless to feel powerful and feel like they're "making a difference" after they've completely failed to do exactly that at a crucial, important time in the world.

Of course its doing anything but making a difference in any real way, other than further stripping liberalism of its credibility. I feel like more so now than ever before in my lifetime, this is a particularly nihilistic period where I really don't have ANY corner of culture to "align" myself with. That's a hugely bad thing, not so much because I need the comfort and safety of others to validate what I think (I'm as staunch an individualist as you'll ever find), but because of how severely damaged things are right now, and the fact that I'm not seeing anywhere I look anybody who's really taking serious steps towards doing something constructive about any of it, but rather sort of just wallowing in this morass of personal delusion and psychological hangups. 

Basically what I'm saying is that we're all essentially traumatized children, and we're going through various emotional "phases" of grief and loss, most of them probably unhealthy on a fundamental level. What I've long hoped for since way back in the Bush years (and have mostly given up on ever happening in my lifetime at this point) is for more people to psychologically suck it the fuck up, accept that what happened happened, put the pain of it behind us and try to move the hell forward and take more practical steps to repairing whatever damage to the culture can still be repaired.

I wouldn't doubt that that's exactly what a lot of people engaged and entrenched in the whole petty outrage/thinkpiece culture THINK that they're doing, but if that's the case then clearly they're delusional and need wake the hell up and realize that nitpicking at petty social offenses is the exact opposite of constructive and helps no one other than their own damaged, fragile ego.

I'd also agree that Twitter and social media in general are doing the exact opposite of helping any of this, and plenty of people would probably be a lot better off spending substantially less time in their lives on them.

post #397 of 4805
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

The REAL test of the Marvel brand.

 

How much will the general affection towards the characters/cast of their movies will SHIELD them from the blowback to something like this???

 

 

Monsters of the highest order.

post #398 of 4805
post #399 of 4805

I don't take much offence at what Renner and Evans said, but the film's handling of Black Widow is truly weird. It's not just one or two instances, it's a whole bunch of them that add up to a depiction actually worthy of the term "problematic".

post #400 of 4805

Haven't seen it yet!

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