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Western Society, Pop Culture, and the Cacophony of Social Media - Page 86

post #4251 of 4695
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

Counterpoint: If Benioff and Weiss came out and said "We made Confederate because we thought the biggest mistake America's made was the 14th Amendement and the Confederacy losing. We want to show people how things would be better if that hadn't happened," would you be fine with HBO still cutting them a check because they're storytellers? 

No. I'm also not "fine" with the Turner Diaries being made commercially available, nor am I "fine" with Gone with the Wind's status as a romantic classic and its grossly romanticized vision of the South, but I am generally capable of living with it. However, we *currently* live in a reality where HBO would not support the production of 'Storm Saxon', so it's not a hypothetical that concerns me...at the moment.
post #4252 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

That's ultimately what I was getting at with empathy, and the reason I won't use FB/Twitter to interact with people I don't know in my real life, for the most part. Because there's a presumption of bad faith that I think is unhealthy, and I think we on the left need to work on.
That is totally true. It's also not going to change unless and until the Internet Progressive Lynch Mob finally disbands.
post #4253 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

That is totally true. It's also not going to change unless and until the Internet Progressive Twitter Mob finally disbands.

no, all this would still happen without them

 

because kill one twitter mob

 

two more shall take its place

 

 

it's not as these mobs are organized enough to even 'disband'

post #4254 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Are you talking to me or Johnny?

edit: oh it was to Boone!

This thread is moving faster than my pathetic typing speed.
post #4255 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

no, all this would still happen without them

because kill one twitter mob

two more shall take its place


it's not as these mobs are organized enough to even 'disband'
In which case, it's not going to change.
post #4256 of 4695

well we'll just sit here and cross our arms then

post #4257 of 4695
Sure looks that way!

Can always talk about Devin tho.
post #4258 of 4695

I think what I find frustrating about the conversation around Confederate is that there's so much good faith being given to Benioff and Weiss, the (white) storytellers, and an assumption that its critics are acting in bad faith by saying "this seems like a bad idea and maybe, maybe HBO needs to rethink supporting it for these reasons." There's been plenty written by historians and scholars of color who position that the kind of Confederate imagery is going to put forward regardless of the intent is the same kind of imagery widely embraced by fans of Gone With The Wind (which, let it be said, is a novel I appreciate and enjoy on one hand while being repulsed by it on the other, much the way you can read Moby-Dick and grapple with Melville's nuanced approach to race that simulaniously has characters speaking in a sterotypical dialect), imagery that is still very much used as tools of oppression and violence today. I'm still making up my mind how I feel about the response to Confederate and the show itself, but generally, I wish HBO was doing something new, simply because this kind of story is boring - until, of course, it's done well. :D

post #4259 of 4695

in terms of the eternal push and pull of this stuff, at least the bungled announcement of CONFEDERATE set the stage for Amazon's REPARATIONS series to throw some shade onto it!

 

AH, MEDIA DISCOURSE

post #4260 of 4695
Thread Starter 
I actually hate talking about Confederate because A) It doesn't exist and B) I currently have zero interest in it.
post #4261 of 4695

so... no CONFEDERATE fanfic from FanficJohnny then???

 

 

also, I just read the Snopes link that Commodore referred to on Ketcham!  oh man, he kept trying!!!

 

eventually, we're all going to be the bigot  in the middle!

 

THE THRILLHO OF PROGRESS!!!

 

7e9b6193ac769d4ebcc7b63dd2a3e46c.jpg 

post #4262 of 4695

Is MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE considered objectionable in the same vein as CONFEDERATE? 

post #4263 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
 

Is MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE considered objectionable in the same vein as CONFEDERATE? 

 

There is an argument to be made, most recently by Ta-Nehisi Coates, that MAN IN THE HIGH CASTLE is different because (at least in the case of the German elements) Germany went through a period of de-Nazification and trying its own citizens and grappling with, to this day, its historical monstrosities. Germany didn't elevate members of the Nazi High Command to positions in public office or put forward a narrative about the nobility of the Nazi cause. They didn't erect statues to its leaders or put swastikas on their regional flag. All of those things happened, more or less, after the end of the Civil War with regards to the CSA, particularly after the end of Reconstruction. There's no need to imagine an "alternative history" where the South won the Civil War because, for many people, and certainly in the popular imagination for decades, they did. 

post #4264 of 4695

Doesn't the fact that we're grappling with neo-Nazis in the fucking White House kind of negate that a bit? The Holocaust itself is still in living memory for millions of people the world over. I don't see how the older atrocity trumps (HAR!) the later one.

post #4265 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jacob Singer View Post
 

Doesn't the fact that we're grappling with neo-Nazis in the fucking White House kind of negate that a bit?

 

That's American neo-Nazis, not German ones, and you could argue that the only reason Nazism and neo-Nazism has resurged in the United States is because we haven't grappled with our own historical atrocities the way the Germans have.  

post #4266 of 4695
If Man In The High Castle had been clumsily announced as a new series in the works AFTER Trump got elected, I imagine there would've been some controversy.

Not to the degree that CONFEDERATE is getting, but more than it got when its pilot premiered on Amazon around 2-3 years ago?
post #4267 of 4695

The thread, it... it moves too fast! A few general, probably redundant thoughts that'll be three pages deep in twenty minutes either way:

 

Re: 300, the movie was transparently 'problematic' from day one (I mean from what I remember it basically celebrates eugenics) but I guess people were more willing to let each other compartmentalize their escapist entertainment back in the more innocent days of the Bush/Neocon era.

 

I don't particularly buy the topical connections the article was trying to draw, it's just going 'here was a movie celebrating fascists, now there are people going around celebrating fascists. Not saying it's responsible, but... well, draw your own conclusions'.

 

It just smacks of post hoc rationalisation to me, and as I said, the 'alt-right' is a vague and malleable enough concept that it's not hard to bend it into whatever thesis you want.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

It's not dumb or blaming to look at popular culture and say "hey, this is emblematic of a lot of cultural attitudes that were either prevalent at the time, or rather, something we can point to as functioning as a precursor to later trends/ideas." And I think it's certainly been argued that the hyper-masculine culture of the turn of the 21st century and Bush era generally produced a lot of entertainment that fed into or endorsed attitudes among young men who were later courted by the alt-right. 

 

I'm not sure 300 can be seen as emblematic of as much as all that because part of the reason the movie hit was that it was completely different from almost anything else out there at the time, it stuck out like a sore thumb and still does in a lot of ways.

 

Bush-era entertainment wasn't characterised by hyper-masculinity. If anything, mainstream movies from that period were notably dark and prickly and morally conflicted. Ironically it was the Obama era that marked a return to a default setting of big buff strongmen punching people to save the day.

 

Re: Censorship, this always turns into a semantic argument that I'd rather avoid.

 

All I'll say is: when what's being asserted is that something other people enjoy is not just bad but actively harmful, it might not be censorship but it is a step beyond just stating personal opinion, and some kind of pushback should be expected.

 

Re: violence in video games etc, I've often found it interesting how much violence in media isn't a part of current cultural debates, even when it could arguably be relevant.

 

I have a sneaking suspicion that part of the reason for that is that those arguments were driven by conservatives and still carry their fetid stench. Now these conversations tend to be driven by the left, they're uneasy about touching that area due to those associations even though the basic ideas about how culture influences society aren't all that dissimilar...

 

Re: Confederate, I'm not touching America's uniquely screwed up racial politics with a ten foot pole, but I do find myself uneasy about campaigns to have a thing cancelled sight unseen based on their ideas about what it might be or the effect it might have. Feels a bit too reminiscent of religious people trying to ban Last Temptation Of Christ without even watching it.

 

Anyway, some good reads in here today chaps! Even you, Boone... *shakes fist*

post #4268 of 4695
Can we talk about the quality and influence of work over time, as well? Sure, 300 fits into a fascistic mind frame, but does anyone take their cues from it?

The article about South Park does a more concrete job of pointing out how a show with two decades of consequence-free irreverence for everything might have skewed the pitch a bit. Kenny never stays dead, the kids never grow older, and the "Jews and faggots" are always up for grabs.

The internet might have its share of Leonidas wannabes, but it's populated mainly by Cartmans. When stuff like this acts in concert, that's when you get problems.
post #4269 of 4695

  I didn't see 300 in theaters because I had heard Bush supporters claiming that this movie was for them; or maybe I heard it reported that those on the right felt that this movie was vindication for them. I know that is some Britta logic on why not to see a movie, but it worked for me at the time. I did rent it when it came out on DVD and I enjoyed it as a really wild stylized action movie. The Spartan's ridiculously over the top machismo made them fun to watch. I did have to roll my eyes at dialogue like this: It is an honor to die in your eyes. Its was an honor to live in yours. I didn't see Leonidas as a stand in for Bush because he didn't ignore intelligence warnings.

post #4270 of 4695

Would it be remiss of me to generalize that the majority of mainstream entertainment ranges from politically moderate/neutral to leftwing to far-left? I have a hard time buying that a few isolated right-leaning outliers like South Park or 24 can shout down virtually every other TV show on air, making it a weird assumption that 'if we could just get that other five percent of absolutely everything to be liberal as well, then society would turn into Star Trek!'

post #4271 of 4695
Thread Starter 
When this initially came about, I didn't care. I took it as a lark and only rife with implication if you allow it to be. However...law is law.

https://moviepilot.com/p/women-only-wonder-woman-screenings-may-have-been-illegal-after-all/4343887

You don't have to be sympathetic to those who were personally offended or feigned offense to recognize that, irrespective of all other considerations, the Alamo Drafthouse was likely unwise to do this for the sake of press. Seems that they've recognized this as well.
post #4272 of 4695
That's making me think of clubs or bars promoting "women get in free" or "women get half off on drinks". That would certainly sound like discrimination as well.
post #4273 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

That's making me think of clubs or bars promoting "women get in free" or "women get half off on drinks". That would certainly sound like discrimination as well.

I remember some guy suing over that once. Didn't go well, mostly because the point of those nights is to draw men there.

post #4274 of 4695
Thread Starter 
I tend to feel worse when Carnotaur3 comes and doubles down on something I had no intention of bringing up.
post #4275 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

I tend to feel worse when Carnotaur3 comes and doubles down on something I had no intention of bringing up.

You can't leave me alone, can you? Also, why do you insist on having to be the ring leader on how conversations should go? Hey, maybe you feel worse because I kind have a point.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Waaaaaaaalt View Post

I remember some guy suing over that once. Didn't go well, mostly because the point of those nights is to draw men there.

Of course we all know the reason, but law is law, right? How do they get away with it, let's say in Texas?
post #4276 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz View Post

  I did have to roll my eyes at dialogue like this: It is an honor to die in your eyes. Its was an honor to live in yours.


Ehhh, that's just melodrama, though. People love it. Just about everyone, if the context is right. You don't see Tolkien or your average Nick Sparks adaptation catching shit for it.
post #4277 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

Of course we all know the reason, but law is law, right? How do they get away with it, let's say in Texas?


I've seen places run an end around by having "skirt night"
post #4278 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chavez View Post


I've seen places run an end around by having "skirt night"

Ohhh I will get around that. I look wonderful in a black mini. 

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

I tend to feel worse when Carnotaur3 comes and doubles down on something I had no intention of bringing up.

Broken clock.

post #4279 of 4695
I own a kilt.
post #4280 of 4695
At least I have the advantage to know I'm broken.

Chavez, do it!
post #4281 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

When this initially came about, I didn't care. I took it as a lark and only rife with implication if you allow it to be. However...law is law.

https://moviepilot.com/p/women-only-wonder-woman-screenings-may-have-been-illegal-after-all/4343887

You don't have to be sympathetic to those who were personally offended or feigned offense to recognize that, irrespective of all other considerations, the Alamo Drafthouse was likely unwise to do this for the sake of press. Seems that they've recognized this as well.

 

So is this just in Austin?

 

Or does it apply to anywhere the Drafthouse did it?  I think one in NYC did it as well?

post #4282 of 4695
Thread Starter 
Good question. I'm sure one could check the law in every city that has a Drafthouse if one were so inclined, but I'm not so inclined. I suppose we'll know definitively if this gets bigger.
post #4283 of 4695
I didn't care for the smug messaging behind the screenings, but they're done. This doesn't strike me as something worth prosecuting on a legal basis.
post #4284 of 4695
Thread Starter 
It's not something I'm at all passionate about, but "worth prosecuting" is in the eye of the beholder. Sometimes checks and balances don't always swing where your sympathies lie.
post #4285 of 4695
post #4286 of 4695

that's fun!

post #4287 of 4695

 I was listening to the new Alice Cooper CD today and I was pleasantly surprised one of the songs is about a transgendered woman and its 100 percent on her side. Since Alice is a born again Christian I was surprised by the subject matter. To his credit he is following the golden rule. The song rocks by the way; its top notch hard rock with a catchy chorus.

post #4288 of 4695

Cooper never really struck me as radically right wing. Mostly I find his born again-ness comes across as a clean living vibe, which... given the amount of drugs he has consumed seems sensible.

 

(or selfish, as the guy has discovered the exact combination of heroin, coke and meth to achieve immortality)

post #4289 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint View Post

Cooper never really struck me as radically right wing. Mostly I find his born again-ness comes across as a clean living vibe, which... given the amount of drugs he has consumed seems sensible.

(or selfish, as the guy has discovered the exact combination of heroin, coke and meth to achieve immortality)

Iirc Alice didn't really do hard drugs, he just drank enough booze to kill a herd of rhinos.
Edited by Chavez - 8/13/17 at 6:40pm
post #4290 of 4695

Even though I'm not a believer, I'm all for whatever keeps Alice sober so he can continue his tradition of great music and stage shows.

post #4291 of 4695

Now here's an article that unites a bunch of our favourite thread themes:

 

https://theoutline.com/post/2156/mic-com-and-the-cynicism-of-modern-media

 

It's basically arguing that mic.com noticed articles on social justice topics were getting a lot of traction on social media, hired a load of enthusiastic young writers to cover it, systematically boiled it all down to a series of easily repeatable outrage porn templates, and then let half of those writers go and moved away from the subject as soon as they decided they could make more money doing something else.

 

I don't think I've ever read Mic so I can't say how accurate it is. It's interesting seeing this presented as a story in the past tense, if it's accurate it'll be interesting to see if the pattern repeats elsewhere. I've tended to notice sites becoming more 'activisty' over recent months than less.

post #4292 of 4695
PIVOT!!!!
post #4293 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

When this initially came about, I didn't care. I took it as a lark and only rife with implication if you allow it to be. However...law is law.

https://moviepilot.com/p/women-only-wonder-woman-screenings-may-have-been-illegal-after-all/4343887

You don't have to be sympathetic to those who were personally offended or feigned offense to recognize that, irrespective of all other considerations, the Alamo Drafthouse was likely unwise to do this for the sake of press. Seems that they've recognized this as well.

 

Looks like they haven't learned their lesson. :rolleyes:

post #4294 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by TzuDohNihm View Post
 

 

Looks like they haven't learned their lesson. :rolleyes:

Well now im boycotting.

post #4295 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

When this initially came about, I didn't care. I took it as a lark and only rife with implication if you allow it to be. However...law is law.

https://moviepilot.com/p/women-only-wonder-woman-screenings-may-have-been-illegal-after-all/4343887

You don't have to be sympathetic to those who were personally offended or feigned offense to recognize that, irrespective of all other considerations, the Alamo Drafthouse was likely unwise to do this for the sake of press. Seems that they've recognized this as well.

 

I really hated this whole thing... it was snarky and stupid, but I refrained from commenting because you're deemed a heretic if you even remotely criticize anything feminist.  I feel the same as I would with an all black screening... stupid and a total mockery of what the civil rights movement was trying to achieve in the first place.  

post #4296 of 4695
post #4297 of 4695
Thread Starter 

I was gathering my thoughts on this, but then I remembered that I am in my 30's so I fucking refuse to have a discussion about Taylor Swift. Batman? Sure. Taylor Swift? Fuck that.

 

My only broad comment is that if someone tries to dictate, to your face, who your friends should or should not be, then the very least they should away with are their ears ringing from how badly you cursed them out. The next step up depends on how cool you are with probably spending the night in a holding cell. 

post #4298 of 4695
Thread Starter 

I was initially looking for material on a completely different subject, not even tangentially related to this, but this story caught my eye and got me thinking about a pervasive, partisan issue in media.

 

Mary Zolkowski, a college student in Michigan, was charged and fined for falsely reporting a rape. Just to get the details out of the way: She first claimed to have been raped in the parking lot of the university and was unable to see her attacker, then she claimed that she was raped by a friend while drunk and she blacked out, then she said the sex was consensual and she was thinking about saying no, but it was over before she had the opportunity. She then recanted that version, and her friend (who I now assume does not describe himself as such) showed police text messages that she sent him that day, where she claimed she was raped in a Wal-Mart parking lot. Long story short, her friend told police that he believed her motivation was the reimbursement of college fees. 

 

I just wanted to summarize the case for the thing I really want to talk about, which, as mentioned above, is the partisan handling of news in media. A cursory search for sites carrying this story revealed that the only four name outlets carrying anything on it were as follows: Daily Mail, NY Post, Fox News, and Breitbart. The rest of it is mostly fringe sites, MRA stuff, etc. 

 

The motivation, certainly for the last three, for posting this story is pretty clear. It supports their narrative that college campuses are awash with false rape allegations and that the pervasiveness of sexual assault is not a thing. That's the narrative they are pursuing. 

 

Then, of course, I had to make note of where this story wasn't being reported. Left-leaning publications or sites with a perhaps with a Left-leaning/activist slant. 

 

All of these publications, Left or Right, tend to do the same shit to different (and not equal) degrees, and it is bothersome to me b/c it further demonstrates how deeply fucked we are in terms of how information is delivered to us. Right-wing sites either ignore stories that might support a narrative banged about on the Left, or they actively fudge the facts of that story depending on how big it is and how fearful they are that it might reflect poorly on their own narrative. Left-leaning/activist publications generally ignore this shit altogether. They won't post a slant, it just won't be something that appears in their publication at all. I've seen that before with a story about a racist assault on a bus that was reported on an activist sort of site, but when that story was proven false, that same site never did a follow-up. They just swept it under the rug and hoped no one would notice. 

 

Obviously, I'm a Left-wing guy, a liberal, and that's why this shit bothers me so much. The Left may not do this sort of thing as pervasively and nefariously as the Right, but the fact that we do it at all is a problem that needs to get fixed. 

post #4299 of 4695
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

All of these publications, Left or Right, tend to do the same shit to different (and not equal) degrees, and it is bothersome to me b/c it further demonstrates how deeply fucked we are in terms of how information is delivered to us.
Yup.
post #4300 of 4695

Some thoughts on this that I will try to articulate as clearly as possible, with no malice intended:
 

I think left-leaning sites have bigger fish to fry than what some student in Michigan may or may not have said.

 

Furthermore, there are numerous studies proving that women who make up rape are exceedingly rare, and that covering these stories actually does more damage when it comes to perpetuating rape culture. Women are actually disinclined to report sexual assault if they think they won't be believed, and having stories that make it seem like more women make up rape than actually do is damaging in the long-run. This is one of the most infurating things about the way that UVA/Rolling Stone thing went down - it basically gave every campus police officer (especially on the verge of Betsy De Vos gutting Title IX) an excuse to say "well, she made it up, so are you sure this happened the way it happened?" 

I think there's value in believing the victim, but investigating thoroughly. I also think social media doesn't help in that regard. 

 

I'm not saying these stories shouldn't be covered, but I don't understand what the value is in having, say, the Times cover this story, particularly since it's a local story at best and blowing it up nationally would do more harm than good.  

 

Furthermore to furthermore, I actually see the left-leaning publications I follow, such as Mother Jones, to name one example, go out of their way to try and recognize when Republicans/the right are doing good things. John Kasich gets extremely favorable coverage, for example. 

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