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Western Society, Pop Culture, and the Cacophony of Social Media - Page 90

post #4451 of 4551

 

This is nice, but he doesn't answer the fucking question about the material. Instead, he tries to make himself look like the victim - a common tactic among guys who like to blame "SJWs" for exposing their own biases. 
 

Also, did everyone miss the dozens of stories that have been posted over the last two years about how the rise of the alt-right is intimately intertwined with troll culture and places like 4Chan and the "ironic racism" on YouTube? 

 

That the actual white supremacists/Nazis routinely recruited from those places, when they weren't incubating those kinds of heinous ideas themselves?

 

That the techniques now used by these guys were pioneered by GamerGaters?

 

Or is this just another installment of "let's handwave away and minimize the fucking problem?" 

post #4452 of 4551
No, it's another installment of "just because people on the Internet are shitty and disgusting doesn't mean they're all necessarily part of a vast right-wing conspiracy to destroy all you hold dear."

Because seriously: if you're going to discuss "the alt-right" as a movement, it behooves you to verify that anybody you're naming as such actually identifies with that movement and isn't just some schmuck with similar gross behaviors. If you're not going to do that, then yes, as Paul says, "alt-right" becomes merely a label meaning "people Boone doesn't like."
post #4453 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

No, it's another installment of "just because people on the Internet are shitty and disgusting doesn't mean they're all necessarily part of a vast right-wing conspiracy to destroy all you hold dear."


Not my point.

 

Paul C put forth a very narrow definition of "alt-right." I was in turn arguing that the definition of "alt-right" is fluid, and can encompass many different things, including material under discussion. I was pushing back, having paid close attention to this over the last decade or so.

 

The prevailing attitude seems to be focusing on an individual's actions, which I get. But I'm also more interested in how the actions of that individual are part of a larger cultural/societal trend worth discussing. Namely, that the kind of stuff this YouTube video guy - and I named a number of other examples beyond him - is pushing is part of this "ironic racism/for the lulz" internet subculture which, although perhaps not on its face racist/white supremacist, has a shared history and present with Paul's definition of the "alt-right." 

post #4454 of 4551

Here's a good article that speaks more to what I mean wrt gaming/YouTube: 

http://www.pajiba.com/think_pieces/how-do-you-solve-a-problem-like-pewdiepie.php

 

Quote:
 

He’s not wrong either. Gaming has a problem. It has long been poisoned by this and has allowed that toxicity to take root in the very foundations of their community. You may still have to explain to your parents who PewDiePie is, but he has over 57m subscribers at his beck and call, meaning he wields gargantuan power and influence not only over gaming but online culture at large. His viewers tend to skew young and male, and his success spawned countless copycats. The precedent set by an incident like this, wherein a wildly popular entertainer says the N word and his supporters shrug, will exacerbate an already twisted problem.
 

Things are bad enough in the world: Racists in the White House, white supremacists on the streets and the sudden legitimising of Nazis under the guise of free speech. YouTube itself is rife with harassment, abuse and extreme right-wing rhetoric. There is no ‘heated gaming moment’ that can justify the use of racial slurs. Sometimes we say things we wouldn’t usually say when we’re angry, but if the first word you reach for in that situation is a racist one, the chances are that word was already on your mind, on the tip of your tongue, in your frequent vocabulary. It’s abhorrent that anyone feels the need to not only excuse racism but normalise it as an expected behaviour in a community where people play video games.
 

Defending Kjellberg empowers that bigotry. It makes it easier for like-minded bigots in gaming and pop culture to feel as if they can indulge in racism because they know hoards of people will defend them, regardless of how wrong it is. They may not directly condone the racism or bigoted slurs, but they will position themselves as a false middle ground, the ‘rational’ voice in the discourse who thinks that yea, the N word is bad, but really, haven’t we all been there, and isn’t the real enemy the evil mainstream media who won’t let poor beleaguered PewDiePie live without having his good name dragged through the mud for a little slip-up like the N word?

post #4455 of 4551
I mean, is that behavior common in the alt-right movement? Sure is. You could even say it's a hallmark. But that's a different thing from saying that anyone who exhibits it is therefore part of that movement.

And frankly, implying that people who are arguing for clarity and accuracy in these discussions are "empowering" racists is a weakass, cowardly way of arguing that you shouldn't have to do your homework.
post #4456 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

I mean, is that behavior common in the alt-right movement? Sure is. You could even say it's a hallmark. But that's a different thing from saying that anyone who exhibits it is therefore part of that movement.

 

And here is where I agree with you while circling back to say that while I think the AV Club article could have been phrased better (and perhaps the Fader article) to phrase it that way.

 

That said, I nevertheless disagreed with Paul C's assertion that it was a "lie," or his insistence that this person - who, again, didn't answer the reporter's fairly polite question about his past content - was being unfairly tarnished by the AV Club.

post #4457 of 4551
Is it just the guy being tagged as alt-right that Paul is taking issue with then?

Because whether these youtube things are alt-right or not, it definitely seems like the guy used his other channel to pander to the gamergate/anti-sjw-feminist audience (at least according to the fader piece) as well as doing cross-over bits with other personalities that were more brazen in spouting those views.

And the guy being married to a black woman doesn't say much to me in either direction. Milo is marrying a black man. A once sex-positive feminist, Laci Green, started dating an MRA guy and pivoted her personal branding/worldviews and may have turned against the audience she used to court.

This stuff shifts constantly because these people can shift their views to what gives them the most utility in terms of their own sense of identity (and bank account!).


As for PMR, I never quite understood what specifically got him banned (it didn't make much sense to me)... but he was definitely on the gamergate train right around that time. It was one of the last topics I went back and forth with him about.
post #4458 of 4551

That AV Club paragraph I posted states that his other channel was about "discussing, replicating and appearing to endorse the worst kinds of racist shitposting", which is simply not true.

 

Can anyone describe and define Fantano's 'ironic racism' for me, maybe with a few examples? How, specifically, is he like Pewdiepie? How is he like Paul Joseph Watson, a guy Fantano regularly mocks? Is he actuallysexist who is casually dismissive of abuse?

 

People couching objectionable views behind a veil of irony is a thing. But somewhere along the line you actually have to produce some evidence that someone is a bad person who thinks bad things before slandering them as such.

post #4459 of 4551
It was the possibility that PMR (Gamergate apologist) and Brick Burgundy (Libertarian gun nut) were the same person that caused the trouble. Burgundy got himself in trouble and PMR followed shortly after.
post #4460 of 4551
hey, fantano uses trigger warnings for real!

I don't have the time at the moment to actually watch videos, but what am I to make of the fader piece's references to mocking the imagery of lynched black people?
post #4461 of 4551

So much guilt by association, guilt by insinuation, guilt by they-might-be-saying-something-aligned-with-the-baddies-if-you-squint-at-it-right. Show me something tangible for once!

post #4462 of 4551

Saying we need to prove someone 'thinks bad things' is like Paul Ryan saying he knows Trump isn't racist because of what's in his heart. 

 

Guess what, if you say something racist, sexist, or homophobic (using the broadest possible metric, not the patented Boone Daniels method), tough titty if people think you're a racist/sexist/homophobe.

post #4463 of 4551

Please show me something he said that's racist, sexist or homophobic! I'm begging you to show me!

post #4464 of 4551
kinda difficult when he took down that entire channel that was being alleged to have indulged in that stuff!

beg HIM to put it back up!
post #4465 of 4551
post #4466 of 4551
Definitional rigor!
post #4467 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

And the guy being married to a black woman doesn't say much to me in either direction. Milo is marrying a black man. A once sex-positive feminist, Laci Green, started dating an MRA guy and pivoted her personal branding/worldviews and may have turned against the audience she used to court.

I don't know if Laci Green turned against her fans but holy shit did they turn on her.

post #4468 of 4551

Laci Green went full TERF tho.

post #4469 of 4551
The Elephant Rides Forth?
post #4470 of 4551

trans exclusionary radical feminist

post #4471 of 4551

Seems to me, alt-right as a vaguely defined grouping or concept is very useful to the left, basically if anyone makes a criticism of the left and they have ever posted on a website associated with the alt-right, quoted someone else associated to the alt-right, or uttered an opinion associated with the alt-right, then they can immediately be discounted and ignored as associated with Nazis. It's kinda like that thing where David Duke endorses a Republican candidate before every election. Message being if you vote for this person, you love the KKK. 

 

I have been independent all this time, socially liberal, fiscally conservative, been working since I was 11, often two jobs. Neither party represents me or my interests and never has. Keeping the hard working reliable people divided upon political and religious lines seems very useful to someone. 

post #4472 of 4551
Looks like it’s back to meaning literal white supremicists again: https://thinkprogress.org/breitbart-expose-white-supremacists-e348021c491a/
post #4473 of 4551

Fantano responds at length:

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UZqIIy7pAk

 

His defense of his handling of the Sam Hyde stuff isn't entirely convincing, he'll probably have to take criticism of that on the chin, but in most respects he pulls apart the Fader article pretty comprehensively, I'd be impressed if anyone could still make a case for it as a well-researched, good-faith piece of writing. It'll be interesting to see how many of the hit-and-run commentators who cheerfully jumped on the hater bandwagon will take the time to listen to the other side.

 

The knives are clearly out for him in certain quarters so it wouldn't surprise me if there's a regrouping and attempt to get him on the basis of not doing enough to distance himself from boogiemen y or z now they've failed to get him on the alt-right thing. But they way overplayed their hand on this one.

post #4474 of 4551

Why are you so mad about this, Paul? What's it about this guy that gets you so heated? 

post #4475 of 4551

Well, I've watched this guy's stuff on and off for years and I think I have a pretty good idea of what he's about, so when I see what I perceive as a disingenuous hit piece, people buying right into that hit piece, his q&a tour getting cancelled and his career and rep taking a hit on the basis of said hit piece, I'm inclined to react against that!

 

You yourself cared enough to post quite a bit about it! You accused him of not answering the fucking questions about the material. Now he's done that... all of a sudden it's not worth caring about?

post #4476 of 4551

I tend to only watch videos at work, so I'll watch it on Monday and get back to you. 

post #4477 of 4551

It's all good my friend! I'll look forward to it...

post #4478 of 4551

watching the video now

 

so far, it seems all reasonable to me!  (as someone who didn't know any of these people existed until it was brought up here)

post #4479 of 4551

social media backlash ends marvel's partnership with northrup grumman

 

http://variety.com/2017/biz/news/marvel-ends-partnership-defense-contractor-northrop-grumman-1202583463/

post #4480 of 4551
Best thing about the Trump presidency:

Dotard is now en vogue as an insult.
post #4481 of 4551
It's a good word to have brought back for sure.
post #4482 of 4551

http://www.niemanlab.org/2017/03/this-site-is-taking-the-edge-off-rant-mode-by-making-readers-pass-a-quiz-before-commenting/

 

If you want to comment on a story on this particular site, you gotta take a short quiz to confirm that you've actually read the thing.  (from back in March of this year)

post #4483 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

http://www.niemanlab.org/2017/03/this-site-is-taking-the-edge-off-rant-mode-by-making-readers-pass-a-quiz-before-commenting/

 

If you want to comment on a story on this particular site, you gotta take a short quiz to confirm that you've actually read the thing.  (from back in March of this year)

Ohh interesting.

post #4484 of 4551
https://thebaffler.com/latest/new-atheisms-idiot-heirs-nichols

I remember when I was all atheist in the early aughts!

woof!
post #4485 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

https://thebaffler.com/latest/new-atheisms-idiot-heirs-nichols

I remember when I was all atheist in the early aughts!

woof!

You found god? Where is he? Tell me!

 

Also yes those guys are uhh....something. 

post #4486 of 4551

Is it me or people just getting more and more offended over everything now?

 

Over here in the UK, we have this going on. A British politician, at an event, used the term "Get on your knees, bitch" and it's been shown that he was playfully addressing a man, so he wasn't using demeaning terminology to a woman. Yet people are still upset, to the point that even his party leader has publicly apologised now. This is ridiculous.  

post #4487 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSaxon View Post

Is it me or people just getting more and more offended over everything now?
 

heheheh isn't that what this thread is kinda about?

 

I don't have much context for how "bitch" is used in the UK, but I can see why going for that bit of "EDGY HUMOR" would be a poor choice at a political event.

post #4488 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

https://thebaffler.com/latest/new-atheisms-idiot-heirs-nichols

I remember when I was all atheist in the early aughts!

woof!

Interesting piece. I remember growing tired and uncomfortable with the tone of modern atheism/'South Park' atheism even before 9/11 for pretty much those reasons.
post #4489 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

https://thebaffler.com/latest/new-atheisms-idiot-heirs-nichols

I remember when I was all atheist in the early aughts!

woof!


I used to watch Thunderf00t's videos until he started attacking Anita Sarkeesian. I don't think someone who claims to be all about reason would attack feminists. That I when someone complains about feminists, they sound too much like Rush Limbaugh and I instantly tune them out.

 

  I did have a phase where I would watch youtube videos about creationists, but they either creeped me out or made me angry, so went back to old rock videos and concert footage. Those where a lot more fun and probably better for my mental health. 

post #4490 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
 


I used to watch Thunderf00t's videos until he started attacking Anita Sarkeesian. I don't think someone who claims to be all about reason would attack feminists. That I when someone complains about feminists, they sound too much like Rush Limbaugh and I instantly tune them out.

 

  I did have a phase where I would watch youtube videos about creationists, but they either creeped me out or made me angry, so went back to old rock videos and concert footage. Those where a lot more fun and probably better for my mental health. 

yes, anyone who disagrees with anything said by a feminist is akin to Rush Limbaugh. That type of thinking and argument is what got you Trump. 

 

And lets be clear, I did not, would not vote Trump and do not support him. But his presidency is a great big middle finger aimed at the type of sentiment in your post. 

post #4491 of 4551
Is there a bingo card I should have that I don’t know about? That’s two “you bleeding hearts got us Trump” sentiments we’ve had in a week.

Nobody involved in Gamergate ended up looking good. It was never a real examination of the issues, and a huge waste of everybody’s time. And I don’t think Chaz needs to be ashamed of being turned off by anything within 100 miles of it.
Edited by Lightning Slim - 10/23/17 at 9:04am
post #4492 of 4551

I was not referring to gamergate, I was referencing his statement that anyone who complains about feminists is to be tuned out. 

 

It is the lack of civil discourse that led us to the current polarized environment. 

 

I was convinced that Trump simply existed to get Hilary elected. That Trump is president is a symptom of a serious problem. The problem is that people no longer try to use reason to find common ground, it is all my way or the highway BS. 

 

I am hoping that changes someday, but all this choose a side crap makes my teeth itch. 

post #4493 of 4551

"Lack of civil discourse" is routinely employed to stifle dissent. Look at some of the statements from the time about MLK. 

post #4494 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

"Lack of civil discourse" is routinely employed to stifle dissent. Look at some of the statements from the time about MLK. 

yep, and your position is often used to stifle civil discourse and insinuate the person advocating civil discourse is somehow a racist or some other odious ist.

post #4495 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by 3nnui View Post
 

yep, and your position is often used to stifle civil discourse and insinuate the person advocating civil discourse is somehow a racist or some other odious ist.


lol okay

post #4496 of 4551

 To be honest, it was years ago when I quit watching Thunderf00t's videos, so my memory isn't perfect, but his criticism of feminism seem more general than disagreements on specific views. I don't consider unsubscribing to someone's youtube channel the same as stifling honest debate.

post #4497 of 4551
It’s funny to me because their main angles of attack were preaching to my choir. Sarkeesian’s initial thoughts were “Why are video games so stupid and tittytastic when it comes to representation of women?”

Thunderf00t be like “I believe in the scientific method. God is a terrible idea.”

To both these concepts I say fine: keep it going.

And then they got into a stupid doxxy slap fight so fuck that.
post #4498 of 4551
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
 

 To be honest, it was years ago when I quit watching Thunderf00t's videos, so my memory isn't perfect, but his criticism of feminism seem more general than disagreements on specific views. I don't consider unsubscribing to someone's youtube channel the same as stifling honest debate.

Sorry Chaz, I was in a salty mood and read too much into your post. I don't like Rush Limbaugh either. I am just tired of all the left vs right shit. Both sides suck and we need to start working on common sense solutions to problems and having open debates. So much of what I see now is partisan rhetoric, and I don't see anything getting better until we move past it. Unfortunately the media and our politicians seem to want the opposite. 

post #4499 of 4551

Dunno where else to put this one.

Milo adjacent alt-right word fountain murders his own father after screaming about leftist pedophiles taking over the country.

 

https://www.thedailybeast.com/youtube-trumpkin-and-former-milo-intern-kills-his-own-dad-for-calling-him-a-nazi

post #4500 of 4551

Ya know I was thinking that guy MIGHT have some mental issues.

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