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post #4551 of 4705

More Peterson chat!

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post

 

It continues to astound me how there's all this supposed rationalist opposition to corrosive leftist postmodernism, when the right -all of it pretty much- are the most postmodern thing politics has had to contend with a long time.  I'm just going to keep saying it.

 

Is it a known thing that Peterson is a christian conservative of some stripe? He'd be the milder Canadian sort, but after watching some of his talks I got the impression his critiques left only one unspoken option, morally and philosophically : relativism is self defeating and destructive so we all must submit to a higher authority.  And ones ultimately seen to be crafted by mere humans are by nature relativistic. Soo...  (plus he likes Solzhenitzyn and Tolstoy a whoooole bunch.  Probably Dostoyevsky too, I'd wager)

 

But I've never seen it stated plainly if he's coming from there (he might like to keep on the down low as it dilutes his academic authority.  Which would be fair enough in some ways. )

 

I find Peterson interesting because he's an intelligent guy, but also kind of nuts and smart enough to couch his bonkers ideas in slippery intellectualism. He's basically the exact mirror of the people he hates the most.

 

I finally got around to listening to a somewhat infamous discussion with Sam Harris (yeah I know that guy comes with a whole load of baggage himself, but still). It's a very long, brutally repetitive argument where Peterson lays out this strange worldview where 'truth' has nothing to do with literal facts, but is tied to the morality of its long term effects.

 

The discussion goes nowhere so I don't recommend wasting your time on it, but if you're curious skip to 1:46:21 where Harris lays out a pretty sensible thought experiment - that if two sets of scientists do the exact same smallpox experiment and one randomly goes wrong and kills millions, and the other succeeds and saves millions, the 'truth' of the experiment itself is the same no matter what the outcome - and Peterson simply will not follow the line of logic or budge on his personal definition of words. Which is ironic when you think about it.

 

Now he doesn't actually say this, but about the only reason I can think of for his wanting to define 'truth' in this wonky way is because by going along with it, it allows for him as a Christian to argue for the truth of religion over science, without having to tackle the question of whether it's factually true. He pretty much takes factual truth out of the equation, and in fact seems reluctant to admit that objective facts outside of human perception even exist. He's pretty much trying to deconstruct reality itself and reshape it subjectively, which sounds pretty postmodern to me!

 

Bonus bit of bonkers: the two examples of the moral failings of scientific progress he jumps to are the invention of the hydrogen bomb, and the birth control pill.

post #4552 of 4705

Yeah yeah, I know you guys don't like this guy, but this was something I didn't even knew existed. With a toddler and an infant of my own, I appreciated the insight, although I'm baffled by the trend:

 

post #4553 of 4705
post #4554 of 4705
I can't believe letting my ipad babysit my child could go wrong!

Murderous Elsa still beats Peppa Pig.
post #4555 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Munson View Post

I can't believe letting my ipad babysit my child could go wrong!
Quoted. For. Truth.

This is an issue I've been expecting to come up for years now. Because, ultimately, if you're even remotely surprised by this, you don't understand the Internet at all.
post #4556 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

Yeah yeah, I know you guys don't like this guy, but this was something I didn't even knew existed. With a toddler and an infant of my own, I appreciated the insight, although I'm baffled by the trend:

 

 

I've been getting back into his internet culture analysis videos, and this one touched on some stuff I had no idea existed.  I shouldn't be surprised at the levels of junk content out there, but in this case I was.

post #4557 of 4705
John Lasseter....there are no heroes left.
post #4558 of 4705
Lasseter seems like the most obvious example of someone who could have been fixed if anyone stood up to him or there was even a modicum of HR oversight.
post #4559 of 4705

Like...fixed?

 

post #4560 of 4705
The day will come when we can call a Weinstein into the room and he’ll not hump a leg... for Oscar contending films of the year.

Good booooooooy!
post #4561 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

Yeah yeah, I know you guys don't like this guy, but this was something I didn't even knew existed. With a toddler and an infant of my own, I appreciated the insight, although I'm baffled by the trend:

 

 

I watched that and maybe I'm just dumb but I feel like the most important question(s) weren't really pursued. Especially if some of these animations are based on live action versions.

 

What the fuck is the idea or reasoning behind these completely bizarre videos? I can more easily understand if they're the result of algorithms just randomly choosing elements but it's clear some are based on shit done by actual humans (the live action stuff). Who's making them and WHY?

post #4562 of 4705

I can't tell if it's to harm children and enrage adults.  Already alerted my sister to it to not let my nephew play with her tablet too much.  He getting too smart already.

post #4563 of 4705
Trolling, plain and simple.
post #4564 of 4705
I'm plenty creeped out by that Elsagate article suggesting there is some sort of weird fetishistic aspect to these.
post #4565 of 4705
There's a weird fetishistic aspect to everything if you look for it, especially on the Internet.
post #4566 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

 

I watched that and maybe I'm just dumb but I feel like the most important question(s) weren't really pursued. Especially if some of these animations are based on live action versions.

 

What the fuck is the idea or reasoning behind these completely bizarre videos? I can more easily understand if they're the result of algorithms just randomly choosing elements but it's clear some are based on shit done by actual humans (the live action stuff). Who's making them and WHY?

 

Ad revenue. If you put the keywords Spiderman, Elsa, Joker, Hulk, etc, in your Video Title, you get absorbed by the kid channel YouTube algorithm. As the video above explains, anyone under the age of five is a passive viewer who is not really controlling what they are watching, just letting it happen. As far as YouTube ad revenue is concerned, that's a full hit and worth the most. The animation bot is obviously mass producing it, but some students have clearly cottoned on to this, and are dressing up and doing bizarre things for easy beer money.

 

I'm assuming if you just uploaded a blank video with that title, it would get eliminated fairly quickly, but if you put a modicum of effort into the video (however bizarre that effort is) you can get some big hits. One of those live action videos got 77 million hits. That'll pay in the tens, maybe hundreds of thousands. Not bad for an afternoons work in the park.

 

I just did a bit of a test of this with the keywords "Spiderman Elsa Joker Hulk" and sorted by upload data. Got lots of hits, all this sort of crap above. Looking at the live action stuff... First forty hits are all 0 views uploaded a few days ago. Then, come across one uploaded 1 week ago... 29K views. In that range, those sort of hits seem to be more and more common (still LOTS of 0 views of course). Then, 2 months ago... found one that hit 2.1 MILLION views. That will have paid more in ad revenue than I earn in two months.

 

My 'job' would have been me and a few mates dressing up in cheap costumes and doing random nonsense and splicing together the videos. I reckon we could probably churn out one or two of those a day though. All for the lottery of that huge algorithm win.


Edited by flint - 11/25/17 at 2:44am
post #4567 of 4705

I'm just baffled by Spider-Man being paired with Elsa. Surely it should have been Captain Cold or Mr. Freeze. 

post #4568 of 4705

He does credit it but most of what he's talking about is recited almost verbatim from that epic length Medium article doing the rounds a few weeks back. It went viral but it really wasn't a well written article, basically spending thousands of words meandering, Film Crit Hulk style, around the very basic point "perhaps we need better curation for kids youtube content".

 

Yeah, people are algorithmically cobbling together things that young kids recognise or like to farm as many clicks as possible, and it works because kids have literally no quality standards when it comes to such things. For the sake of some kind of cultural quality control it would probably be for the best to put a stop to that, the most obvious way being to make a properly curated pre-school version of youtube.

 

But the way both the article and video keep declaring the videos 'unsettling', 'hallucinogenic', 'off' etc to make them sound as scary and dangerous as possible makes it feel like they're trying to stoke this into some kind of moral panic, based on what doesn't seem to be a whole lot of authority on the subject. I mean, the idea that things that appeal to pre-schoolers seem bizarre to adults is nothing new, it's what people made fun of Teletubbies for for years.

 

These things may be shitty and lazy and pointless, but I'm not convinced they're actually damaging kids brains or whatever.

post #4569 of 4705

Absolutely. I always thought that Baby Sun God thing in Teletubbies was creepy as hell.

post #4570 of 4705

Yeah, I was thinking there was some dark fetish shit at play, to the point where I didn't want to engage with it, but when my curiosity won out, it ended up being more innocuous than I expected.

 

That said, I'm sure the dark fetish stuff is out there too. Elsa pooping and getting stabbed, shit like that. So maybe the thing to hope for is a sea of pointless garbage the truly heinous shit can get lost in.

 

Oh, there'll be a reckoning on YouTube, sooner or later.

post #4571 of 4705
The future freaks me out.
post #4572 of 4705

truly we are all through the 

 

BLACK

MIRROR

post #4573 of 4705
So what I’m getting here is that we’re starting the CHUD Kids YouTube channel where we remake age inappropriate classic/geek films with random children’s characters for the easy paycheck.

Prince Hans slapping Elsa while she shouts, “She’s my sister AND my daughter.”

Dora the Tomb Raider.

Silence of the Lambchop

The Last House on the Left... on Sesame Street
post #4574 of 4705

EDIT

post #4575 of 4705
post #4576 of 4705

hahahahah

 

JOR
DAN!

post #4577 of 4705

Apparently #comicsgate has been trending on Twitter for a few weeks: https://twitter.com/hashtag/comicsgate?src=hash

 

It's exactly what you think, the comic book equivalent of Gamer Gate. It seems to stem from those leaked comments a few months ago in which Marvel admitted diversity has been hurting their sales. I can't quite pinpoint exactly what is spurring the conversation right now, because it seems to have picked up in the last few days. 

 

Someone mentions our beloved Lindsay Ellis getting asked about it on a livestream a few days ago. Spider-Man writer Dan Slott seems to have said some controversial statements.

 

Ugh, I love the legacy characters at Marvel right now (Jane Foster Thor, Amadeus Cho Hulk, Ms. Marvel, Laura Wolverine) and since the whole attack on Chelsea Cain last year over her Mockingbird cover with "Ask Me About My Feminist Agenda" on it the whole comics experience is really getting tainted. 

post #4578 of 4705

My suspicion (backed up by no evidence) is that there's a pandering quality to some of the moves made by Marvel and also Disney that some people pick up on and dislike.  


It's like their waving their Virtue Signalling cards over their heads desperately yelling "we're diverse! We are! Look! We just made Thor a WOMAN! And, and we made Spider-man mixed race (but no White in there!). " There's a falseness that I think both supporters and detractors detect and that informs the virulence of the debate (well that and it's the Internet).

 

Meanwhile there are plenty of diverse characters already out there in Comics: Black Panther, The Falcon, Captain Marvel (Monica Rambeau), Sue Storm, Storm!, etc. 

 

Characters who all have a rich history and in many cases, you can make current social issues flow organically from their stories. 

post #4579 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by superlaser View Post

So what I’m getting here is that we’re starting the CHUD Kids YouTube channel where we remake age inappropriate classic/geek films with random children’s characters for the easy paycheck.
 

 

 

Any excuse to post this again. 

post #4580 of 4705
THINGU needs no excuse.
post #4581 of 4705
Some of Marvel’s diversity initiatives have been clumsy, but lining up a list of them and saying “See? CANCER!” Isn’t a real criticism. That twitter feed made my eyes bleed.

Not to turn this into a Coke/Pepsi thing, but DC has managed to avoid some heat by making Legacy characters part of their MO for a long time, so no on batted an eye at teenaged Hispanic Blue Beetle.
post #4582 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post

My suspicion (backed up by no evidence) is that there's a pandering quality to some of the moves made by Marvel and also Disney that some people pick up on and dislike.  


It's like their waving their Virtue Signalling cards over their heads desperately yelling "we're diverse! We are! Look! We just made Thor a WOMAN! And, and we made Spider-man mixed race (but no White in there!). " There's a falseness that I think both supporters and detractors detect and that informs the virulence of the debate (well that and it's the Internet).

Meanwhile there are plenty of diverse characters already out there in Comics: Black Panther, The Falcon, Captain Marvel (Monica Rambeau), Sue Storm, Storm!, etc. 

Characters who all have a rich history and in many cases, you can make current social issues flow organically from their stories. 

This has been my gut reaction as well for a while now.

There's also this element of having your cake and eating it too with Marvel. Like, Sam Wilson is Captain America now! But so is Steve Rogers. They're both Captain America with comics called Captain America. Or here's Lady Thor! But we're just gonna call her Thor! Same as Thor over there who's still Thor but not Thor.

You see how confusing this shit looks to the average mook like me?

I'm all for diverse legacy characters but the way Marvel's went about it feels like a mess to jump into from an outside perspective.
post #4583 of 4705
post #4584 of 4705
post #4585 of 4705
post #4586 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul C View Post
 

More Peterson chat!

 

 

I find Peterson interesting because he's an intelligent guy, but also kind of nuts and smart enough to couch his bonkers ideas in slippery intellectualism. He's basically the exact mirror of the people he hates the most.

 

I finally got around to listening to a somewhat infamous discussion with Sam Harris (yeah I know that guy comes with a whole load of baggage himself, but still). It's a very long, brutally repetitive argument where Peterson lays out this strange worldview where 'truth' has nothing to do with literal facts, but is tied to the morality of its long term effects.

...

 

Thanks btw.  This kind of things deserves a more than casual level of brain cycles to talk about so it might take a while to get around to it properly.  That's a heck of a line up anyway.  Similar guys in a certain respect.  I wonder how many rationalists don't care about half of what Harris says, but only post me links for how handy he is as a sophisticated arguer for being explicitly anti-muslim and so forth.  Peterson is even more interesting in that sense.  At least Harris is an atheist rationalist who probably lines up with those guys more broadly.  But they argue via Peterson links because he's sophisticated-ly anti feminist and/or extreme left.  Beyond that they're not really interested in the whys and wherefores of his views I suspect.

In that conversation he sounds again, in a roundabout sort of way, like religious arguments I've heard for morality that essentially put faith first.  A couple of times they leaned heavily on readings of The Brothers Karamazov.

I find it kind of interesting that he an academic psychologist with all this stuff.  Maybe I just don't know enough psychologists.  They're all usually pretty earthy and relativist.

post #4587 of 4705
He’s not just an academic. He practices. People allow him inside their heads.
post #4588 of 4705

On that note here's a little pushback

 

Professor of Piffle

 

I would quibble on one point.  The author says, probably in a bit of hyperbolic rhetoric, that all Peterson has truly discovered is that the idea of postmodernism can be usefully exploited like other populist causes.

To be precise, he did not discover this and the whole 'secret marxist mind poison' angle has been long argued in 'culture war' type battles and used as a stick to beat humanities courses with from time to time, in exactly the way he is doing, most particularly in the '90s.

post #4589 of 4705
“Peterson is calling for war within the humanities. We should happily oblige.”

That’s gold.
post #4590 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Codename View Post

This has been my gut reaction as well for a while now.

There's also this element of having your cake and eating it too with Marvel. Like, Sam Wilson is Captain America now! But so is Steve Rogers. They're both Captain America with comics called Captain America. Or here's Lady Thor! But we're just gonna call her Thor! Same as Thor over there who's still Thor but not Thor.

You see how confusing this shit looks to the average mook like me?

I'm all for diverse legacy characters but the way Marvel's went about it feels like a mess to jump into from an outside perspective.

But I'm not all too sure that "keeping em white" is a better solution.

I know it's more than that. Better writing is what we need, but the reason why people attatch themselves to diversifying legacy characters is because it forces writers to get creative. But reading "another" Spider-Man book about Peter Parker doing the same shit he's been doing the past 60 or so years is fucking boring.

I'm not for diversifying for the sake of it, but I do some it's benefits.
post #4591 of 4705

in the meantime, a white guy at marvel has been promoted even though it's been revealed that he used to secretly write Japan-themed stories under a fake Japanese name

 

so fuck it

 

diversify them ALL willy nilly!

post #4592 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

in the meantime, a white guy at marvel has been promoted even though it's been revealed that he used to secretly write Japan-themed stories under a fake Japanese name
Him and 95% of fanfiction.net...
post #4593 of 4705

they were promoted too???

post #4594 of 4705
Yep. 95% of fanfiction.net now works for Marvel. True story.
post #4595 of 4705

AKIRA YOSHIDA

 

E HONDA

 

TAMAGO KUROSAWA

 

TOYOTA CAMRY

post #4596 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ska Oreo View Post


But I'm not all too sure that "keeping em white" is a better solution.

I know it's more than that. Better writing is what we need, but the reason why people attatch themselves to diversifying legacy characters is because it forces writers to get creative. But reading "another" Spider-Man book about Peter Parker doing the same shit he's been doing the past 60 or so years is fucking boring.

I'm not for diversifying for the sake of it, but I do some it's benefits.

 

Oh I agree with you and wasn't advocating for "keeping em white". 

 

Quite the opposite actually, I wish they'd go full steam on it. Sam Wilson as Captain America? Awesome, then make Steve fucking dead and keep him that way. Miles Morales as Spidey? Hell yeah but then don't bring Peter Parker back from the dead.

 

I know that's pretty much never going to happen. But if you're going with the Legacy characters while the original is still around it just feels like a temporary divergence before the status quo reasserts itself. Which makes it difficult to get attached to these characters cause you're basically just waiting for them to be written out. 

 

Something like Ms. Marvel seems like the winning formula. She's a legacy character but by having a different name than Captain Marvel and different powers it helps her stand on her own even if Carol is still around. 

post #4597 of 4705
post #4598 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil spurn View Post
 

More on the damned Millenials:

 

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2017/12/04/where-millennials-come-from?nl=cooking&em_pos=large&emc=edit_ck_20171201

 

Actually pretty good.

 

Millennials are ruining blind devotion to utilitarian conformist principles.  

post #4599 of 4705
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ska Oreo View Post


But I'm not all too sure that "keeping em white" is a better solution.

I know it's more than that. Better writing is what we need, but the reason why people attatch themselves to diversifying legacy characters is because it forces writers to get creative. But reading "another" Spider-Man book about Peter Parker doing the same shit he's been doing the past 60 or so years is fucking boring.

I'm not for diversifying for the sake of it, but I do some it's benefits.

 

Miles Morales is just doing the same shit Peter Parker has been doing for the past sixty years, only while black. It's not exactly a quantum leap that his mom is dead instead of his dad.

post #4600 of 4705

Honestly, I am watching the millenial thing play out in my own home, and I have a few ideas on it. My boys are 17 and 14 now.

 

1. Economics- I have worked since I was 11 years old, I have been responsible for getting the things I want myself. There was plenty of opportunity to work, I was a paperboy, I passed out flyers, sold mistletoe at christmas, worked as a gardner and and in construction all by the time I was legal working age. Now there are less jobs available, business wont hire underage workers anymore and many jobs that used to be done by teenagers are now done by adults. Because kids have less opportunity to work, they are less self reliant. To get what they want, they have to convince someone else to get it for them. That is a breeding ground for entitlement, unhappiness and resentment. 

 

2. School/Sports more involved and more competitive. When I went to school, you played sports, you worked, you did your homework, you partied, you chased tail, you did it all. yeah I only slept 2-4 hours a night in high school and it was fucking great. Both my boys are A students and High School Basketball players, but they do not work because and don't have time for much else as honors courses become more and more involved (model United Nations conferences on weekends, Google classroom, all the ways the kids stay connected to school at home). To play a major sport in high school you either have to be a freakish talent or have been training since you were 8 years old. So people are no longer able to have the full teenage young adult experience, there is not enough money and not enough time. 

 

3. Technology. It used to be we had to go out and seek out friends, now your friends (and not friends) are always around, so you don't have to enter the world to experience life, you read about life and watch videos, and it never ends, no time to think about things and find yourself. No reason to go out when all the entertainment in the world is at your fingertips. Huxley would call the internet SOMA. I watched my older son's first relationship with a girlfriend, it was depressing and terrifying. It was all on the phone, stressing about how long it takes a person to respond, which emoji they used or did not use etc. 

 

4. Culture- fame is now it's own end. People are 'famous for being famous' that is how you end up with a monumental douchebag as president. That POS should have been unelectable, but shit like the Kardashians makes him seem reasonable to some. 

 

5. Self Esteem- people used to have to achieve something to earn respect, it was a goal, not a given. Now people don't earn respect, they earn recognition, how do you get recognized? You make a bunch of loud noise and act outrageously. The more ridiculous you are, the more clicks you earn, the more 'fame' you achieve. Reasonable argument gets TLDR while bullshit emoting earns #woke.

 

6. So we have a generation that has been taught that there is no achievement other than empathy. Are we surprised they are miserable and paralyzed? Thus endeth my cranky old man rant for the evening. 

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