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post #1351 of 4021
It doesn't equal bad either.
post #1352 of 4021

Ambler hasn't turned on forwakens.  He's just commenting that he's immediately tired of the star war machine.

post #1353 of 4021
I still love TFA. It is miles better than most blockbusters. They played it a bit safe but that was necessary to remove the prequel stink.
post #1354 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

. It is miles better than most blockbusters. They played it a bit safe but that was necessary to remove the prequel stink.

NO!!!!

post #1355 of 4021
STAR TREK BEYOND was a better film.
post #1356 of 4021
Cause they both take place in space doesn't mean they're comparable. Two different films.
post #1357 of 4021
Mad Max was a better film.
post #1358 of 4021
People are being silly. TFA never really stood a chance as a successor to greatest movie franchise of all time. It was an excellent film.
post #1359 of 4021
Of course it did. That's like saying ESB never had a chance of being better than SW, the greatest space fantasy film ever.

The thing that stopped TFA being brilliant wasn't what came before it, rather those in charge who needed to play safe simply to get the world back on board with the brand. There are countless brilliant stories to tell in the SW universe, you just need the guts to try something different and don't worry about the initial bottom line when making those decisions.
post #1360 of 4021
Let's see where Episode 8 goes. 7 was what it needed to be.
post #1361 of 4021

NO!!!!

 

I'm kinda at a loss whenever the point is made that "Episode 7 NEEDED to be this way because...".  I just don't know how to respond to it.  Not because I don't get it, but because the very people saying it just sound SO COMFORTABLE with how nakedly cynical and condescending it is.  And it's usually the people who decry such cold cynically calculated corporate cinema!  When I read it, it sounds like "They needed to make a safe star war because people are weak."

 

It's one of those cases where Episode 8 could be legitimately amazing and I still wouldn't look at Episode 7 all that differently.   At least I'm pretty sure I wouldn't!  hahahaha

post #1362 of 4021
It's not really the "safeness" of TFA that's the problem. The problem is the way it falls apart once we hit that Rathtar sequence and never really comes back together again.
post #1363 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Of course it did. That's like saying ESB never had a chance of being better than SW, the greatest space fantasy film ever.

People like to believe ESB was always hailed as a masterpiece. On the contrary, its 1980 reception was even more lukewarm and mixed than TFA. ESB was actually met with a kind of indifference that is hard to believe in hindsight. Obviously a lot of people loved it like a lot of people love TFA, but time has been very kind to it. Some reviews/people complained it was too much of a copy of ANH. Gasp!

So no, I don't take TFA reception seriously because it is mirred in too much reverence of what came before, which is what happened to ESB.
post #1364 of 4021

I don't know how Empire is too much of a copy of star war.  Because it has the same characters and is set on space and planets???

post #1365 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

It's not really the "safeness" of TFA that's the problem. The problem is the way it falls apart once we hit that Rathtar sequence and never really comes back together again.

 

I think they're a part of the same drive that creates those very problems.  But for sure, the execution after a certain point is allllllll over the place.  

post #1366 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

People like to believe ESB was always hailed as a masterpiece. On the contrary, its 1980 reception was even more lukewarm and mixed than TFA. ESB was actually met with a kind of indifference that is hard to believe in hindsight. Obviously a lot of people loved it like a lot of people love TFA, but time has been very kind to it. Some reviews/people complained it was too much of a copy of ANH. Gasp!

So no, I don't take TFA reception seriously because it is mirred in too much reverence of what came before, which is what happened to ESB.

If I remember correctly ESB was never hailed as a masterpiece on its release. It was only after the OT was over and done did people reevaluate it and see it as the standout film of the series in a way that SW wasn't (although that film still was a standout). And how ESB could be said to be a copy of SW boggles the mind. They couldn't be more different.
post #1367 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post


 And how ESB could be said to be a copy of SW boggles the mind. They couldn't be more different.

they both have that Dark Father guy and lazurswurdz!  And pew pew pew!

post #1368 of 4021
I can understand the "too much similar!" because sequels weren't really as much of a thing back then.

They both have a duel at the end. A wise teacher leading the hero. A barren planet that is the same all over. The Falcon being chased by Star Destroyers. The heroes having to escape an Imperial stronghold (Death star in ANH, Bespin in ESB) Their battle sequences are actually reversed (ANH at the end, ESB at the beginning), but the two have a lot common. ROTJ is even more guilty of this.

This is why I never cared about TFA borrowing from ANH. These movies have always had a rhyming structure like poetry you see!
post #1369 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

I can understand the "too much similar!" because sequels weren't really as much of a thing back then.

They both have a duel at the end. A wise teacher leading the hero. A barren planet that is the same all over. The Falcon being chased by Star Destroyers. The heroes having to escape an Imperial stronghold (Death star in ANH, Bespin in ESB) Their battle sequences are actually reversed (ANH at the end, ESB at the beginning), but the two have a lot common. ROTJ is even more guilty of this.
 

Those are pretty good points.

 

Even though Empire was still very much all about subverting a lot of what happened in star war.

post #1370 of 4021
Explain the subversions beyond father and yoda reveals.
post #1371 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post

Cause they both take place in space doesn't mean they're comparable. Two different films.

Two space operas by Bad Robot within a year. I think it's a fair comparison.
post #1372 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

Explain the subversions beyond father and yoda reveals.

Good guys always on the run, rarely gaining an upper hand.  Splits up our heroes and puts them in isolated situations.

 

They lose big.

 

The film ends with great uncertainty.

 

Tonally different.

 

I mean, there's a reason so many of these big blockbuster movies all try to have their EMPIRE entry.  It's mean to mark the DAAAAARK CHAAAPTERRRR that isn't just your USUAL SEQUEL that just gives people the same basic story.


Edited by mcnooj82 - 8/6/16 at 3:40pm
post #1373 of 4021

Ah yes yes.   The funny little subversion's are actually probably the most successful elements of TFA for me.  The storm trooper as the hero, even though we get almost nothing out of that storyline and it ends up being horrendously underused it's a neat perspective in theory.  A lady in the Luke role.  Kylo Ren being a Vader fanboy who instead of being a sadistic powerful badass is an insecure weak conflicted kid who's almost MORE dangerous than Vader because he's such an emotional loose cannon and try hard.  Of the three only really Kylo is given the unique storytelling required to set him apart and make him truly interesting which is a real shame.  They say plot should come out of strong character work, but TFA is so very busy aping the original trilogy in plot and character that it doesn't have the bravery to let the plot follow Rey and Finn and Kylo to their own stories.

 

A cowards movie who's most interesting NEW elements are mostly superficial because they're given so little mind to explore.  Finn sure looks great in the trooper Armor, but that's about it.  

post #1374 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

Ah yes yes.   The funny little subversion's are actually probably the most successful elements of TFA for me.  The storm trooper as the hero, even though we get almost nothing out of that storyline and it ends up being horrendously underused it's a neat perspective in theory.  A lady in the Luke role.  Kylo Ren being a Vader fanboy who instead of being a sadistic powerful badass is an insecure weak conflicted kid who's almost MORE dangerous than Vader because he's such an emotional loose cannon and try hard.  Of the three only really Kylo is given the unique storytelling required to set him apart and make him truly interesting which is a real shame.  They say plot should come out of strong character work, but TFA is so very busy aping the original trilogy in plot and character that it doesn't have the bravery to let the plot follow Rey and Finn and Kylo to their own stories.

A cowards movie who's most interesting NEW elements are mostly superficial because they're given so little mind to explore.  Finn sure looks great in the trooper Armor, but that's about it.  

Harsh but fair.
post #1375 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Even though Empire was still very much all about subverting a lot of what happened in star war.

How much of that is because Empire's only half a story though?

You cut Star Wars off just after the death of Obi Wan and the Death Star escape and isn't it then somewhat of a 'subversion' of the full version of itself?
post #1376 of 4021
Mmmm I don't think it's half a story. Because Empire still feels like a full film (compared to the literal half movies we got with The Matrix sequels and the YA novel finale part 1 and 2s).

I would say the same for something like Fellowship of the Ring.

Yeah, they're more blatantly chapters to be continued, but they still feel like singular works. And Empire was doing it with film in a way that wasn't really done at the time (as far as I know).
post #1377 of 4021
That's kind of why I don't like the literal cliffhanger in VII. All the films relatively work as standalone stories, with a few threads that remain open for the following episodes to take on. I never feel like VII was meant for anything other than just setting up a bunch of stuff "a good question... for another time". Fuck you Maz.
post #1378 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post

Let's see where Episode 8 goes. 7 was what it needed to be.

Episode 7 would have worked just fine, and I'd argue better, if it was the movie the opening crawl told us it was going to be.

"Young heroes and old friends band together on a Quest Against Time to find the legendary and mysterious Luke Skywalker, Last of the Jedi" is a GREAT idea for a Star Wars movie.

Too bad they didn't have faith in it to carry the film, because it could have easily. Play up the race against time to get to Luke before Kylo and the Empire does, and have the final battle take place because both Resistance and First Order forces show up at the same planet at the same time, having put the pieces together. Our heroes battle down on the planet's surface, pretty much everything could play out exactly how it did in the film we got in fact, except in the end the Resistance just, you know, escapes instead of blowing up a planet. Just cut Starkiller out entirely and play up the Quest and you've got a fantastic Star Wars movie that feels new.
post #1379 of 4021
Yep. Shame that they didn't make that movie.

The way the film so casually tosses that plotline aside is almost hilarious.
post #1380 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Mmmm I don't think it's half a story. Because Empire still feels like a full film (compared to the literal half movies we got with The Matrix sequels and the YA novel finale part 1 and 2s).

I would say the same for something like Fellowship of the Ring.

Yeah, they're more blatantly chapters to be continued, but they still feel like singular works. And Empire was doing it with film in a way that wasn't really done at the time (as far as I know).

Man, every time someone reminds me of the Matrix sequels I get bummed.

In some alternate timeline, Reloaded is exactly the same but Revolutions starts with the revelation that Zion is still in the Matrix, and Neo's the first human to ever fully wake up. The trilogy as hailed as a masterpiece and a new cornerstone for philosophical sci-fi.

Instead, I live in the timeline that has paint by numbers Revolutions. And Trump.
post #1381 of 4021

The cliffhanger in Empire is very concrete compared to the one in forwakens.

 

Han has been frozen.  Leia must get her back.

Luke has been told that Vader is his father.  Is it true or not?  Probably true.  Must face him again when he's better prepared.

 

There's a trajectory there.  It's not really a mystery aside from "could Vader by lying?" (which is pretty silly in retrospect).  It's just our heroes at their most desperate hour.

 

 

 

forwakens' cliffhanger is weird, since it's nothing but vague mysteries the film itself has painted as such (good questions for another time!).  They're not desperate.  They just defeated the First Order's grand DETHSTA3.0 and made Kylo look quite the fool.  Han is actually dead, so there's no question about having to save him.  (HE'D BETTER BE DEAD)  Finn will probably wake up from his coma/injuries soon.  And R2 conveniently helped them find Luke finally!  

 

Everything is really just hovering around the question: "JUST HOW SPECIAL IS REY?"  Probably really special.  That's nice.  

 

please take this lazurswurd instead of just staring at me and grimacing

post #1382 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Mmmm I don't think it's half a story. Because Empire still feels like a full film (compared to the literal half movies we got with The Matrix sequels and the YA novel finale part 1 and 2s).

I would say the same for something like Fellowship of the Ring.

Yeah, they're more blatantly chapters to be continued, but they still feel like singular works. And Empire was doing it with film in a way that wasn't really done at the time (as far as I know).

Ha! I had the LOTR comparison in my post at first but chopped it out before posting since it seemed too darn obvious.

The Empire Strikes Back is half a story. The second biggest emotional moment in that film is a set-up for the opening of the next film. The biggest emotional moment is a set-up for the end of the next film. Nothing is even close to resolved at the end of The Empire Strikes Back. Without The Return of the Jedi, The Empire Strikes Back doesn't work as a story, only as a sequence of cool events that happen. The LOTR films are "only" parts of a full story too.
post #1383 of 4021
I think the difference is that Empire and the LOTR movies really make the effort to make the end of these continuing chapters FEEL like a singular experience. Obviously the story isn't done. That's why it's a cliffhanger.

forwakens tried to put a cliffhanger on a general plot that has already ended (the Resistance being victorious and Rey having fulfilled her expertise in ALL THINGS). The scene with Luke is really just paying off the opening crawl's "LUKE IS MISSING!" detail. It's more like a TV cliffhanger that way. Conclude the episodic adventure, tease the next one in the final moment before credits.

So you're right. Empire and LOTR aren't full stories. But they put in the due diligence to make their cliffhangers feel grand with a good sense of where to go from there. So they still feel like full films because they were made as such... unlike the cliffhangers of films that are single productions split into two (Reloaded/Revolutions, Kill Bill, Deathly Hallows 1 and 2).

Though I actually think it worked for Kill Bill.

And obviously, LOTR was made as a single production.

And I think Reloaded had several moments to end on for a good cliffhanger... but the one it chose was so baffling!

"oh NO! it's BaneSmith in a coma next to ComaLimboNeo!!!"

BOOM
TO BE CONCLUDED
post #1384 of 4021
I loved the clifftop cliffhanger of TFA - even the cheesey unStar Warsy, spinny chopper shot, and even given the way it's kind of awkwardly tacked on - but it definitely feels more like episodic TV-style narrative storytelling than the epic in-story cliffhangers of Star Wars and Lord of the Rings.

I must've seen The Matrix half a dozen times, but still never seen the sequels.
post #1385 of 4021

I mean, Rey meeting Luke is a fulfillment of her story arc. She's moved on from waiting for her family, and is starting something new of her own.

 

It's only a cliffhanger in so much as we know they'll have more adventures together. Same with that final shot of Vader spinning out into space in the original Star Wars. Oh no, the bad guy lived, will he cause trouble for our heroes again?!

 

The details left hanging, Rey's heritage and how the lightsaber got to Maz, aren't necessarily even connected to Luke. "Who are my parents?" "Fuck if I know." "How'd your lightsaber get to Maz?" "Um, last time I saw it was after Vader cut it off."

post #1386 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

I mean, Rey meeting Luke is a fulfillment of her story arc.
On paper, sure. But it sure doesn't feel like that in the movie itself.
post #1387 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

I mean, Rey meeting Luke is a fulfillment of her story arc. She's moved on from waiting for her family, and is starting something new of her own.

It's only a cliffhanger in so much as we know they'll have more adventures together. Same with that final shot of Vader spinning out into space in the original Star Wars. Oh no, the bad guy lived, will he cause trouble for our heroes again?!

The details left hanging, Rey's heritage and how the lightsaber got to Maz, aren't necessarily even connected to Luke. "Who are my parents?" "Fuck if I know." "How'd your lightsaber get to Maz?" "Um, last time I saw it was after Vader cut it off."

There were none of those questions at the end of A New Hope though, even with Vader spinning away. Those are far more Empirey, mid-story type questions, whether they're connected to Luke or not.

And Rey going to Luke is no fulfillment of a story arc, it's barely the next step beyond her refusing of the call. She runs from Maz's offer of a mission, gets captured, escapes, and then accepts Leia's offer of exactly the same mission. By the end of The Force Awakens she's at the same step in her hero's journey as Luke was before he'd even cruised on into Mos Eisley (and that's even though The Force Awakens has cycled through beats from the entire OT by that stage).

The fact she's orders of magnitude more skilled than Luke was at the same point in his journey doesn't change that. These stories aren't about getting skilled up. That stuff's just window dressing for the central emotional narrative.
post #1388 of 4021

Sigh, it's the same conversation over and over. She specifically tells Maz she'll never pick up the lightsaber again, but then in the final battle with Kylo she does. Arc fulfilled, thus setting her off on a new direction in life, to Luke.

 

We're just not going to agree, so forget I said anything!

post #1389 of 4021

I think people wrestle with how clumsy it all feels is all.   

post #1390 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

I think people wrestle with how clumsy it all feels is all.   
Yeah. Her arc isn't very well-communicated because the movie totally loses focus at RATHTARS!
post #1391 of 4021

I was given the Art of Star Wars: The Force Awakens as a Christmas gift and I found that I personally preferred a lot of the earlier designs for the film.

 

There were a lot of elements that they borrowed directly from the orginal McQuarrie paintings.

 

But it seemed, at least from watching the film, they abandoned a lot of those touches for an sleeker look of the original OT designs.

 

It just seemed like they didn't want to push the designs too far, which I guess is fair.

post #1392 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Sigh, it's the same conversation over and over. She specifically tells Maz she'll never pick up the lightsaber again, but then in the final battle with Kylo she does. Arc fulfilled, thus setting her off on a new direction in life, to Luke.

We're just not going to agree, so forget I said anything!

Luke specifically tells Ben he wouldn't go with him to Alderaan, and then when his aunt and unc get torched he does. Picking up a weapon or going down to Mos Eisley spaceport isn't even close to fulfilling a story arc, they're only one call-answering step along the respective paths.

We are going to agree, so I'll never forget anything you ever said!
post #1393 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

STAR TREK BEYOND was a better film.

 

Stocks is correct. 

 

HOWEVER....

 

I was actually thinking about this comparison on leaving the theater from BEYOND. That is easily the better written film (at least as far as what we see as the completed film); tighter, more focused, more economical. But I found BEYOND far less engaging with regards to the actual characters. I just never cared all that much what happened, beyond find it funny and interesting. I certainly wasn't worried about Kirk and Spock's dilemmas given at the start of the film. TFA, OTOH, was messy, unfocused, and uneven, but had me invested in Rey and Finn immediately. I cared what happened to them.

 

Subjective as hell and, yes, YMMV, but for my money, TFA was the more successful film in the long run, even though BEYOND was a better constructed film.

post #1394 of 4021

You're very concerned with Campbellian structure and comparisons to Star Wars. A story arc is when a character changes. Rey changes.

 

In the instance you're pointing out, Luke isn't changing. He wants to leave Tatooine and go have an adventure from the start. He only hesitates out of a sense of responsibility, but that obstacle is removed. His story arc is fulfilled when he trusts in the Force and shuts down his computer. But even if there had never been a sequel, his arc is over (for the moment) because although he's not a Jedi Master yet, he's accepted the way of the Jedi.

 

Rey changes in that she wants to stay on Jakku, but then decides not to. She doesn't want to be a Jedi, then she decides she wants to. Simple, elegant. Sure, maybe a little clumsy in execution.

post #1395 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

NO!!!!

 

I'm kinda at a loss whenever the point is made that "Episode 7 NEEDED to be this way because...".  I just don't know how to respond to it.  Not because I don't get it, but because the very people saying it just sound SO COMFORTABLE with how nakedly cynical and condescending it is.  And it's usually the people who decry such cold cynically calculated corporate cinema!  When I read it, it sounds like "They needed to make a safe star war because people are weak."

 

It's one of those cases where Episode 8 could be legitimately amazing and I still wouldn't look at Episode 7 all that differently.   At least I'm pretty sure I wouldn't!  hahahaha


It's cynical and it's realistic.  Disney didn't shell out 2 1/2 billion dollars so that they could tank the franchise straight out of the gate by turning off the hoi polloi with a "risky" movie that didn't give off "Star Wars feels" from beginning to end.

 

Or worse yet, something that people felt was even less "like Star Wars" than the prequels.

post #1396 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucho View Post


I must've seen The Matrix half a dozen times, but still never seen the sequels.

DUUUUDE. You need to strap it on and see those. We need a hot take thread from you. Seriously.
post #1397 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

You're very concerned with Campbellian structure and comparisons to Star Wars. A story arc is when a character changes. Rey changes.

In the instance you're pointing out, Luke isn't changing. He wants to leave Tatooine and go have an adventure from the start. He only hesitates out of a sense of responsibility, but that obstacle is removed. His story arc is fulfilled when he trusts in the Force and shuts down his computer. But even if there had never been a sequel, his arc is over (for the moment) because although he's not a Jedi Master yet, he's accepted the way of the Jedi.

Rey changes in that she wants to stay on Jakku, but then decides not to. She doesn't want to be a Jedi, then she decides she wants to. Simple, elegant. Sure, maybe a little clumsy in execution.

It's funny because I think the argument toward Rey not working is because of the comparison to Luke's journey. Rey serves as new Luke for the trilogy, no question. But she's definitely not written that way. Comparing her to Luke by taking note of the changes between the two is a bad way to go about justifying her arc as badly written. The debate starts to get silly. Like you said above, all the beats for her arc are there. They're just not how Luke went about them.
post #1398 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

The details left hanging, Rey's heritage and how the lightsaber got to Maz, aren't necessarily even connected to Luke. "Who are my parents?" "Fuck if I know." "How'd your lightsaber get to Maz?" "Um, last time I saw it was after Vader cut it off."

If those are Luke's actual answers in VIII I'll take back everything I've said about VII.
post #1399 of 4021
I wish I could articulate why more elegantly, but Rey's arc bothers me. I dunno. You kind of HAVE to compare it to Luke and keep the cambell stuff in mind. Her refusal of the call happens at the midpoint which is fucking weird. It's not inherently bad because of that but her progress through the story subsequently feels odd. She's breathlessly forced into the story by a raging plot monster only to go back to her refusal of the call once the plot slows down but then the plot tidal wave hits her again and no time to think dummy!!! Say what you will about how incredibly over exposed the myth arc stuff is but I like the story structure of it all and how the fairly strict journey flows and gives us time to bond with them and take the time to feel the emotional catharsis we're supposed to feel because the right time has been invested in the right ways.

I would have been so much more connected to Rey's big lightsaber moment in the forest if her shit wasn't handled so topsy turvy. Her parentage thing works as a motivator to stay put, an obvious subversion of Lukes longing for something more.

But it also doesn't work nearly as well because 1) her parentage being a mystery is annoying and adds very little to THIS story. Making a movie that's actually setup for somebody else's theoretical movie is lazy bullshit and bad storytelling period, and 2) nobody can relate to being abandoned by your family with monsters only to become a capable genius in almost everything except for facing the reality that your family are horrible monsters who do not want you. She's such a capable and smart girl but she's pretty niave and stupid about that. Understandable that people can be irrational and stupid when it comes to family? Sure. But nowhere NEAR as relatable as the universal longing for something bigger.

So to summarize I guess I don't like Rey's arc so much because it's poorly paced, and time is committed in the wrong places in wrong doses. Her central plight is not dramatically satisfying or relatable in THIS movie and it all sort of adds together to a collective "meh".

Seriously, the only logical reason for her to be dropped off on hell to a slaver when she's a fucking CHILD is if a villain killed her family and didn't have the balls to kill her so he ditched her there.

Also fuck Snoke, Luke and his merry band of Ren should be this trilogies shades of grey villains.
post #1400 of 4021
Haha. They'd never go there. Fanboy rage would be too much.
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