CHUD.com Community › Forums › THE MAIN SEWER › Focused Film Discussion › STAR WARS: ROGUE ONE (Gareth Edwards, 2016)
New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:

STAR WARS: ROGUE ONE (Gareth Edwards, 2016) - Page 29

post #1401 of 4021

It's easy to compare/contrast it to A New Hope because the movie apes from it. But it also apes from Empire Strikes Back too, and nobody's attempting to compare it to that film, which is a story I don't even think HAS a refusal of the call.

post #1402 of 4021
If anything colliding the endless chase of empire with the classic myth of the original in a kind of thoughtless way is part of the movies problem. So in that respect we talk about empire every time we mock the go go go nature of TFA.
post #1403 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ska Oreo View Post

Haha. They'd never go there. Fanboy rage would be too much.

It could have been pretty damn cool though.
post #1404 of 4021

So you're arguing it has to be one way or the other. 

post #1405 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

Seriously, the only logical reason for her to be dropped off on hell to a slaver when she's a fucking CHILD is if a villain killed her family and didn't have the balls to kill her so he ditched her there.

This is literally the only explanation that makes any sense. It's not like she was left with Aunt Beru here - she got left with a fucking scrap trader who makes her work her ass off just to eat. It's also the only way a weird story cheat like "Force Mind Wipe!!" would make any in-universe sense. Luke isn't going to do that to a student of his, nor is he going to leave her with an asshole alien. Kylo not having the balls to finish the job and so trying to make her forget who she is with his fledgling dark side powers kind of works. Kind of. And it's at least something new for Star Wars, which these days is a miracle.

It would SOMEWHAT retcon her super-skilled-at-everythingness as well. Of course now we'll be pissed if they don't do this, so we're really only hurting ourselves by trying to fix Episode VII.
post #1406 of 4021

Ugh, mind wipe. 

 

I do not want it to go there.

post #1407 of 4021
I'm arguing that it has to be well designed and carefully thought out. To change stuff on set and to change things radically in the edit sometimes works like a new hope. Sometimes you get TFA or Suicide Squad, good movies that should be amazing.

If you want me to care about your movie you have to invest time. Carefully designed and spent time is the best way there will ever be to engage an audience. Empire didn't have a universe to set up so they could be slightly more go go go. TFA is a movie that doesn't think it's important to invest the time to explain to me who the two sides of this new war even are and what they're fighting over. Is the resistence a rebellion again? The focus in TFA is often balanced poorly, like Suicide Squad it's awfully choppy.

It's the telltale sign of something that has been hacked up, and as soon as you start hacking, suddenly Rey goes from "1 to 2 to 3" and working beautifully on the page to "2 to 1 to 1 to 4 to 3"
post #1408 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

Ugh, mind wipe. 

I do not want it to go there.

There's almost no other way I can see it going, unfortunately. If she was at the temple but just "doesn't remember" that sounds like bullshit. If she got super skilled at the Force just because JJ then that's bullshit. If they ignore her Force use in VII and regress her for VIII then that's bullshit. If they ignore Kylo's apparent knowledge of her (from the novelization) then THAT'S bullshit. And if they just have Luke or Leia or somebody who's not a bad guy leave her with a damn slaver then that's REALLY bullshit.

This mystery box has metal bars, laser tripwires, electronic ball-breakers, sharp sticks... and it looks like there's only one way out alive.
post #1409 of 4021
There's also the possibility that Rey's parents or lineage won't ever be mentioned again. We got Maz's "Dear child, they're not coming back..." or something, so there's the very likely chance they'll just say fuck it, her parents aren't coming back, they're dead and give us no explanation. And that's bullshit too. But just as likely.
post #1410 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

STAR TREK BEYOND was a better film.

I'll admit, I think I had a better time watching it. But, that's mainly because I knew everything about TFA before I saw it and even if I hadn't followed all the spoilers there was nothing surprising about it. But it's also kind of an unfair comparison, first film in a trilogy of Star Wars films that is meant to appeal to fans of the original trilogy as much as possible...a lot more to set up and a lot more riding on that than Beyond.

I have little doubt that there's lot of surprises and great fun ahead for the rest of the trilogy. I am already way more invested in the new cast of characters in this Star Wars trilogy than I ever was in nuTrek. Despite Beyond being a pretty legit Star Trek film, I can't honestly say I really give a shit where those characters are going next, especially since we already know so much.


Edited by Itsnotatumor - 8/7/16 at 8:41am
post #1411 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
Empire didn't have a universe to set up so they could be slightly more go go go.

 

Yes, but Empire is a single film. I certainly get what you are saying, but the film ditches some of the Campbell myth structure. And is lauded as the best of the Star Wars films. That doesn't mean that the film didn't borrow from the Hero's Journey. It took a few things, such as the Meeting with the Mentor or Tests, Allies, and Enemies. But it wasn't the adherence A New Hope was. And neither is The Force Awakens. In fact, go back to A New Hope and you'll see that Lucas even changes up the format from the Hero's Journey. Meeting with he Mentor is before Refusal of the Call. 

post #1412 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post
 

It's easy to compare/contrast it to A New Hope because the movie apes from it. But it also apes from Empire Strikes Back too, and nobody's attempting to compare it to that film, which is a story I don't even think HAS a refusal of the call.

Oh, I've criticized forwakens for being a hodgepodge frankenstein's monster of the entire original trilogy for a while now.

 

Empire doesn't have the same refusal of the call, but it has something similar where Luke defies Yoda and Obi-Wan's advice and accepts the call to adventure well before he's prepared.  And then is punished for it.  Him going had no effect on Han being frozen.  And even if he hadn't gone, the others probably would've ended up the same way and escaped with Lando's help.  Luke may have actually put them in greater danger by having to be saved by them when he's lost.

post #1413 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

There's also the possibility that Rey's parents or lineage won't ever be mentioned again. We got Maz's "Dear child, they're not coming back..." or something, so there's the very likely chance they'll just say fuck it, her parents aren't coming back, they're dead and give us no explanation. And that's bullshit too. But just as likely.


Possibly, but that's taking things out of context. Maz recognizes that whatever Rey is looking for (never specifies family, but we know that's what she cares about) is ahead of her, not behind her. It's fairly difficult to read that entire scene in full context as anything but Luke being her father. The fact that the lightsaber, a family heirloom is specifically calling to her is certainly pointing in that direction. And there's subtle little hints that seem to lean that way, like how the script describes Luke and Rey's meeting at the end of the film. "Words are unnecessary."

I can't say for sure that that is the direction they're heading, but if I were a screenwriter and I was trying to write a story about the next generation of Skywalker's (which this new trilogy was always supposed to be about, I also hardly think George Lucas was joking when he asked JJ in that little Q and A thing that went outline "What happened to Anakin Skywalker's Grandchildren" and JJ kind of skirted around answering it), I would pretty much do it mostly the same way overall. I would give you every reason visually and thematically to feel that way (that Rey is Luke's child), but fall short of saying it outright in the first film. Why? Because it's an opportunity to play on the audiences expectations and doubts and have a reverse "I am your father" scene  in the next film, and I also feel like part of what this trilogy should be about is Luke owning up to his family legacy, including all of the bad parts which means admitting that he's prone to making some of the same mistakes (like being a bad father for example) but that he's not bound to the same destiny.

There are several things indicating that is part of the story, at least as far as Leia is concerned, it'd be rather weird for them to not go all out and give Luke a similar treatment especially when we have this Rey character who clearly is trying to figure out who her family is...and she just happens to be the destined owner of that specific weapon even though we know for sure Kylo Ren is Anakin's grandson.

post #1414 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

STAR TREK BEYOND was a better film.

 

I couldn't say it was "better" (as there are a lot of factors involved and it depends how we're judging them) but I certainly haven't had an urge to revisit TFA after my single cinema viewing, whereas I'm very much looking forward to grabbing Beyond when it's released. Strange, as I was always more of a Star Wars fan than a Trek fan when I was growing up.

post #1415 of 4021
There's always the possibility Luke never knew Rey is his daughter. He could think his daughter was killed or whatever at the academy slaughter and then she turns up 15 years later with his lightsaber.

Rey herself says she's classified and she's a big secret.

Fuck it, I dunno. Hopefully it will be something of substance that justifies the secrets alluded to in TFA. But seeing as it was JJ who wrote it I can't help but think it was just surface sheen to be filled in by someone else once he'd cut and run.
post #1416 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Olmos View Post


This is literally the only explanation that makes any sense. It's not like she was left with Aunt Beru here - she got left with a fucking scrap trader who makes her work her ass off just to eat. It's also the only way a weird story cheat like "Force Mind Wipe!!" would make any in-universe sense. Luke isn't going to do that to a student of his, nor is he going to leave her with an asshole alien. Kylo not having the balls to finish the job and so trying to make her forget who she is with his fledgling dark side powers kind of works. Kind of. And it's at least something new for Star Wars, which these days is a miracle.

It would SOMEWHAT retcon her super-skilled-at-everythingness as well. Of course now we'll be pissed if they don't do this, so we're really only hurting ourselves by trying to fix Episode VII.

I've thought about this but no not really. It's entirely possible that Rey was taken by her mother, or that she never knew Luke. Whatever the case is, Rey was dropped off on the planet was well before Kylo and the Knights of Ren destroyed Luke's Academy, we know this because of specific details dropped in the Leia focused novel that was recently released, which takes place six years before TFA. It might just be that Rey was dropped on that planet at Luke's request but that she was meant to be placed in the care of Lor San Tekka and Unkar was just the middle man but he was playing his own game or something.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

There's always the possibility Luke never knew Rey is his daughter. He could think his daughter was killed or whatever at the academy slaughter and then she turns up 15 years later with his lightsaber.

Rey herself says she's classified and she's a big secret.

Fuck it, I dunno. Hopefully it will be something of substance that justifies the secrets alluded to in TFA. But seeing as it was JJ who wrote it I can't help but think it was just surface sheen to be filled in by someone else once he'd cut and run.

Certainly it's no coincidence that the planet which is home to Lor San Tekka and the Church of the Force (a group seeking to right the wrongs of the past and bring back "balance"), and that Rey was dropped off on also happens to be the site of the Empire's last hurrah.
 

While this site is postulating that Rey might be related to Palpatine, it addresses some interesting information about the planet revealed in another recent novel. Seems Jakku is indeed much more than just a forgotten junkyard world where past battles took place, I wouldn't be surprised at all that the trilogy ends up taking us back there. Honestly, gives me the impression they are indeed going to riff on Knights of the Republic here. Rey having a memory wipe, Jakku being the home of some forgotten artifacts or power... http://dorksideoftheforce.com/2016/07/29/jakku-from-the-force-awakens-is-more-important-than-we-thought/     


 

post #1417 of 4021
If the Luke father thing ends up happening, they should not have an "I'm your father moment." They should assume the audience had it at the end of The Force Awakens. Perhaps even Rey and Luke just sort of skirt the issue throughout the film even though they both know. Perhaps it gets brought up in an unconventional way with Luke apologizing. But anything other than just that iconic moment regurgitated as a twist.

Even though I'm against this story angle, I do admit the psychological underpinnings of Luke training his daughter is an interesting one given his painful background with his own father.
post #1418 of 4021
Memory wipes are literary bullshit.
post #1419 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Memory wipes are literary bullshit.


I agree, but we already have seen Rey learning things that Luke was never capable of until TESB, and they have already taken steps to canonize parts of Knights of the Old Republic since the Disney buyout, directly referencing the era and world (although not directly the events in the game itself) in the season 2 finale of Rebels, and not to mention that Kylo Ren's look was obviously influenced strongly by Revan, I can definitely see them riffing more of the story later on.

post #1420 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

If the Luke father thing ends up happening, they should not have an "I'm your father moment." They should assume the audience had it at the end of The Force Awakens. Perhaps even Rey and Luke just sort of skirt the issue throughout the film even though they both know. Perhaps it gets brought up in an unconventional way with Luke apologizing. But anything other than just that iconic moment regurgitated as a twist.

Even though I'm against this story angle, I do admit the psychological underpinnings of Luke training his daughter is an interesting one given his painful background with his own father.

I'm not suggesting they should outright ape the "I am your father" scene and try to make it a massive twist, but it's pretty clear they're building things up to a big reveal. And ya, I'm much more interested in playing out Luke training his own daughter after having failed at his first academy. I'm sure he feels a lot of guild and isn't jumping right into doing that.

Then again that kind of is the twist, Luke basically stepping up to do what his father tried to do with him in TESB but in a good way. I mean they gotta have Luke in a serious lightsaber/force battle at some point I think it would be a much more satisfying climax to see him and Rey taking on Kylo and Snoke together, than a retread on Rey having to go and do it alone with no backup much like he did.

Cuz I think another point they should really drive home here is that whole Jedi abstinence no attachment thing isn't really a good idea. The story is already ripe to push things in that direction, instead of Luke being a failure like his father or whatever and feeling all that guilt, he comes to realize that he has to do things his own way and leave the old ways of the Jedi behind.

post #1421 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

 

 

Rey changes in that she wants to stay on Jakku, but then decides not to. She doesn't want to be a Jedi, then she decides she wants to. Simple, elegant. Sure, maybe a little clumsy in execution.

clumsy is right!

 

clumsy like meesa jajabinks

 

Rey keeps talking about how she wants to stay on Jakku, but NEVER in the movie does that actually affect her choices on it since the movie is constantly in GO GO GO RUN RUN RUN JJ DELIGHTS mode once the action kicks in.  Her supposed desire to stay on that planet is only ever done with cheap words to the point it feels more like an excuse she automatically trots out. 

 

Clearly, her general decency and goodness is what keeps her moving along in the story.  But without an actual moment where she is truly torn about whether or not to leave Jakku (and if her ties to the planet weren't so nebulous and an empty mystery), I don't buy that 'change.'  Yes, I can fill in some blanks after the fact.  But as an experience, the calibration is way off.  

 

And by the time she's actually REFUSED THE CAAAALLLLLL waaaay later in the movie in that scene with Maz, the idea of Jakku has been vapor for a while.  Obviously, Jakku was a stand-in for her being held back by her past.  Too bad that past is already mysterious vapor.  GOOD QUESTIONS FOR ANOTHER TIME.

 

Simple?  I guess.

 

Elegant?  hahaha yea right

 

 

nice try comBARTmentalizing!


Edited by mcnooj82 - 8/7/16 at 10:17am
post #1422 of 4021

Instead of a mind wipe, would it be possible that Rey is suffering from a form of post-traumatic stress?  That she essentially "blacked out" the horrible memories of her family being slaughtered--all by herself?  That would explain why seeing a lightsabre again, for the first time since the massacre, brought everything rushing back to her--and also why she was so incredibly revulsed by it.  

 

I don't care for the notion that Rey is Luke's daughter.  It's just too cheap a gimmick for the filmmakers to use.  However, as has been theorized, a case could be made that Kylo Ren is familiar with Rey. There could be explanations for that familiarity aside from "they're cousins."   I hope they find a smart one.  The idea that Kylo Ren spared Rey is intriguing, but I have trouble buying it completely because it would seem, due to his age, that he was barely a pre-teen when the massacre happened.  

post #1423 of 4021
I read the Lucas wanted Rey to be a descendant of Qui-Gon Jinn and Shmi Skywalker.

Whaaa...?!
post #1424 of 4021

qui-gon that cad...

post #1425 of 4021

The Lucas.  

 

I think there should be an enemy swarm of deadly fighters/warships that goes by that name.  

post #1426 of 4021

Lu-KASS

post #1427 of 4021
Best I can come up with is that Rey is related to no one, more a creation of Snoke as the perfect force warrior. Luke gets wind of this and goes to find her but can't bring himself to destroy a kid so dumps her on Jakku hoping she'll just disappear. When he gets back home it turns out everyone was slaughtered. So he just thinks fuck it, if it was good enough for Yoda and that fucking lying Kenobi, then it's good enough for me and just fucks off to Ireland.

That way there's no convenient I'm Luke's kid, plus there's no Luke being a dick by basically abandoning his own child.
post #1428 of 4021
Let my typo begin a proud new Chud tradition. Henceforth, he shall be referred to as The Lucas!
post #1429 of 4021

not

 

THE GOITER?

post #1430 of 4021
Aka The Goiter.
post #1431 of 4021

The Goit Awakens

post #1432 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

clumsy is right!

 

clumsy like meesa jajabinks

 

Rey keeps talking about how she wants to stay on Jakku, but NEVER in the movie does that actually affect her choices on it since the movie is constantly in GO GO GO RUN RUN RUN JJ DELIGHTS mode once the action kicks in.  Her supposed desire to stay on that planet is only ever done with cheap words to the point it feels more like an excuse she automatically trots out. 

 

Clearly, her general decency and goodness is what keeps her moving along in the story.  But without an actual moment where she is truly torn about whether or not to leave Jakku (and if her ties to the planet weren't so nebulous and an empty mystery), I don't buy that 'change.'  Yes, I can fill in some blanks after the fact.  But as an experience, the calibration is way off.  

 

And by the time she's actually REFUSED THE CAAAALLLLLL waaaay later in the movie in that scene with Maz, the idea of Jakku has been vapor for a while.  Obviously, Jakku was a stand-in for her being held back by her past.  Too bad that past is already mysterious vapor.  GOOD QUESTIONS FOR ANOTHER TIME.

 

Simple?  I guess.

 

Elegant?  hahaha yea right

 

 

nice try comBARTmentalizing!

post #1433 of 4021

yea that's right

 

you despair

post #1434 of 4021

Anyone else read this...

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

clumsy is right!

 

clumsy like meesa jajabinks

 

 

...and find themselves thinking of....

 

 

?

post #1435 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Best I can come up with is that Rey is related to no one, more a creation of Snoke as the perfect force warrior. Luke gets wind of this and goes to find her but can't bring himself to destroy a kid so dumps her on Jakku hoping she'll just disappear. When he gets back home it turns out everyone was slaughtered. So he just thinks fuck it, if it was good enough for Yoda and that fucking lying Kenobi, then it's good enough for me and just fucks off to Ireland.

That way there's no convenient I'm Luke's kid, plus there's no Luke being a dick by basically abandoning his own child.

As a lifelong Star Wars fan, I (think I) have the courage (whatever) to admit at this point that Star Wars really should have ended with Return of the Jedi.  

 

(awkward pause)

 

(runs for cover and ducks behind a rock)

 

Really, the whole Star Wars story, as it has been presented in subsequent films, is extremely thin.  Half the films have ended with the destruction of a "Death Star," and now the first standalone film is about...the original Death Star.  All of the films are about the same two warring space samurai clans, and a particular dysfunctional family within the clans.  

 

(you can barely hear me from behind the rock at this point)

 

To put this into another context, imagine if every other Star Trek film ended with the destruction of a Borg cube.  Or the revelation that the villain was a Voyager probe each time.  If even the Next Generation films were about the same family of explorers--like all of Star Trek was about the Kirk family, sequel after sequel, generation after generation.  

 

(I'm trembling, knowing I will be found and that a beating will quickly ensue)

 

I wonder if this small explosion of new Star Wars films is ultimately going to stretch the franchise past its breaking point.  

 

(stop it, that hurts)

post #1436 of 4021
As a lifelong fan of goiters...
post #1437 of 4021

Yes, I had no idea what I was getting into.

post #1438 of 4021

yes!  no more star war!

post #1439 of 4021

Star Love, not Star War.

post #1440 of 4021
Star Wars is about dudes in leather jackets shooting guns and sassing ladies.

Star Trek is about dudes in Horatio Hornblower uniforms sassing ladies after a lot of sitting around talking to diplomats.

Completely different animals!
post #1441 of 4021

I think Star Wars can be boiled down to two core concepts:  The good vs. evil Force Conflict, and Space Superweapons.  

 

I'm not sure if Star Trek is quite that simple, although it has plenty of limitations--and it has "gone back to the well" several times itself.  

post #1442 of 4021
If anything, the original trilogy should have ended with ESB - Luke and Leia escaping with the revel fleet, Han captured and Lando off to search for him.

RotJ is the sequel we should have got instead of TFA. Leia is leader of the rebellion, Luke has trained under Yoda and is a fully fledged Jedi and Lando has chased Boba Fett around the galaxy and has him cornered.

Ending ESB on such a downer and not revisiting that place in time in universe for 30 years would have made the SW saga (two films) such an odd couple that would have kept people talking for years - I wonder what did ever happen to my childhood heroes, Luke and Leia and did Lando manage to rescue Han - guess we'll never know as Lucas has shown no interest in the story for 30 years.

Cut to 2012: ZOMG LUCAS IS FILMING A SEQUEL TO ESB WITH THE ORIGINAL CAST IN!!!!!
post #1443 of 4021

ey, if they wanna let Blomkamp do that with ALIENS...

post #1444 of 4021

And where one of Star Trek's base concepts (people from different cultures find common ground and solve a problem) has been used repeatedy, it has been used in the face of very different adversaries and dilemmas.  The Star Wars protagonists have really been subject to the same temptations and have been fighting the same "final bosses" all along.  

 

I hope Rogue One is a good movie completely apart from the Death Star angle.  I would very much like to see other stories set in the Star Wars universe that don't involve the usual Jedi or Death Star crutches.  But so far, those haven't presented themselves.  Here's hoping the Han Solo and Boba Fett movies bring something else to the table.  

post #1445 of 4021

Elvis, I'm imagining a young Han Solo emerging from 35 years in carbonite, revulsed by old Leia.  

 

"Who are you?"  

 

"Someone who loves you!"

 

"OHMYGODWHAT"

post #1446 of 4021
Dear god, the thought of that Han Solo movie...

I'd honestly rather watch an R2-D2 movie.
post #1447 of 4021

At least they didn't cast that guy from Fantastic Four.  The film at least has that going for it.  

post #1448 of 4021

Which star war was Trank supposed to have directed?

post #1449 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by littlenomad View Post
 

Instead of a mind wipe, would it be possible that Rey is suffering from a form of post-traumatic stress?  That she essentially "blacked out" the horrible memories of her family being slaughtered--all by herself?  That would explain why seeing a lightsabre again, for the first time since the massacre, brought everything rushing back to her--and also why she was so incredibly revulsed by it.  

 

"Those sons of bitches wanted to leave Jakku! I had to do it! I had to!"

post #1450 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Best I can come up with is that Rey is related to no one, more a creation of Snoke as the perfect force warrior. Luke gets wind of this and goes to find her but can't bring himself to destroy a kid so dumps her on Jakku hoping she'll just disappear. When he gets back home it turns out everyone was slaughtered. So he just thinks fuck it, if it was good enough for Yoda and that fucking lying Kenobi, then it's good enough for me and just fucks off to Ireland.

That way there's no convenient I'm Luke's kid, plus there's no Luke being a dick by basically abandoning his own child.

Not to be argumentative, but as has already been mentioned in here, that timeline doesn’t really add up.  Rey being dropped off on Jakku happened many years before Ben Solo became Kylo Ren (the BLOODLINE novel - set only six years before TFA - finds Ben still off training with Luke).

 

But I agree that I don't think Rey is Luke's daughter.  Not only does that timeline not make sense (why would he maroon his daughter, but then still be adventuring around the galaxy with his nephew many years later?), but I can't see a scenario where Luke - given his upbringing - would allow his child to grow up without parents.  There's also not even the smallest hint of Luke having any family in BLOODLINE, either.

New Posts  All Forums:Forum Nav:
  Return Home
  Back to Forum: Focused Film Discussion
CHUD.com Community › Forums › THE MAIN SEWER › Focused Film Discussion › STAR WARS: ROGUE ONE (Gareth Edwards, 2016)