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STAR WARS: ROGUE ONE (Gareth Edwards, 2016) - Page 35

post #1701 of 4021
If you're not single there's no justice in this world.
post #1702 of 4021

The Way of The Mynock?!  What fucking jackass named that fighting style? 

"Oooh Master Huplah! Your lightsaber technique is so impressive! What will you name it after?"

"A fucking space worm stomach parasite."

"Er...that is...hmmm...ok."

post #1703 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

 

But yeah, what's this about a Jedi planet in Rogue One?

 

Yeah, I like that they compare it to something like Mecca or Jerusalem. Just some sort of mystical Holy Land for the Jedi faith. 

I also love that they're straight up leaning into the Force as a religion and mystical force with this new canon. Which ties into Donnie Yen's character being a "believer" in the Jedi and the Force without actually being force-sensitive.

post #1704 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Codename View Post
 

 

Yeah, I like that they compare it to something like Mecca or Jerusalem. Just some sort of mystical Holy Land for the Jedi faith. 

I also love that they're straight up leaning into the Force as a religion and mystical force with this new canon. Which ties into Donnie Yen's character being a "believer" in the Jedi and the Force without actually being force-sensitive.

 

The mystical aspect I can get behind, but it would be nice if they actually addressed the fact that the Jedi were a bunch of militaristic cultish weirdos. 

post #1705 of 4021
The force as a religion leads you to believe there has to then be some sort of force God. And that's bullshit. The force is an energy field that occurs naturally.

It's like worshiping magnetism or the wind or soil or something.

Next thing the Jedis will be selling crystals and tie-dyes at space Woodstock.
post #1706 of 4021

Next we have Ataru, Form IV, (and I'm not making this up) also called "The Way of the Hawk-Bat," is an aggressive, acrobatic style. A practitioner of this form channels the Force to achieve high-speed movements, impossible leaps, and deadly strikes. To an outsider, it appears as a wild rush of movement.

 

Its use of acrobatics makes Form IV difficult to master and dangerous to attempt. Even with the aid of the Force, a Jedi risks expending too much energy in a short burst of offensive strikes, leaving himself open to attacks if he cannot defeat the enemy quickly enough.  This was obviously Yoda's jam.  

post #1707 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

The force as a religion leads you to believe there has to then be some sort of force God. And that's bullshit. The force is an energy field that occurs naturally.

It's like worshiping magnetism or the wind or soil or something.

Next thing the Jedis will be selling crystals and tie-dyes at space Woodstock.

 

Not to be nitpicky, but couldn't it just be a non-theistic religion? Like nature worship, where it's "mystical" in the sense that it doesn't obey known scientific rules, but is controllable to an extent. I'm an atheist myself, but I'd much prefer vague spiritualism in my Star Wars to space bacteria. 

post #1708 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post


No - all of this is post-OT prequel and EU retconning.

From the point of view of the OT Vader was the ultimate baddie, no emo hurt feelings or mummy/wife issues, just a bad bad man who gave into evil and continued to live an evil life. In his tiny amount of screentime Anakin did nothing to justify his afterlife status.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Codename View Post
 

 

Yeah, I like that they compare it to something like Mecca or Jerusalem. Just some sort of mystical Holy Land for the Jedi faith. 

I also love that they're straight up leaning into the Force as a religion and mystical force with this new canon. Which ties into Donnie Yen's character being a "believer" in the Jedi and the Force without actually being force-sensitive.

 

It goes along with Max van Sydow and Maz being believers without having Force abilities. Also, the Rebels in the OT always said, "May the Force be with you," so it was still important to them even without having power.

post #1709 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

The force as a religion leads you to believe there has to then be some sort of force God. And that's bullshit. The force is an energy field that occurs naturally.

It's like worshiping magnetism or the wind or soil or something.

 

Not really, no. The Jedi have always been comparable to Buddhism or Shintoism which don't follow a monotheistic deity either. You can draw a lot of parallels between the idea of The Force being generated by all living things and the idea of kami (spirits residing in all material objects and immaterial abstracts) in Shinto.

 

I see it as more of a set of paths and philosophies to follow to feel closer to said Force instead of "Go to Jedi Church and pray to Jedi God and you too can do sweet flips like his chosen disciples".

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatoon View Post
 

 

The mystical aspect I can get behind, but it would be nice if they actually addressed the fact that the Jedi were a bunch of militaristic cultish weirdos. 

 

Good point. It would be cool if the movie addresses this with a few lines of dialogue. Something about how the Jedi were never meant to wield the power that they did during the age of the Republic and how that helped speed up their downfall.  Sort of like how the Knights Templar went from being bodyguards to pilgrims travelling to the Holy Land to bankers wielding a lot of power before they too were wiped from existence (The whole 'Order 66' thing from the prequels being a direct reference to the Knights Templar).

post #1710 of 4021
Quote:
Like nature worship, where it's "mystical" in the sense that it doesn't obey known scientific rules, but is controllable to an extent. I'm an atheist myself, but I'd much prefer vague spiritualism in my Star Wars to space bacteria. 

 

I understand why people don't like the idea that people have Midichlorian counts which reflect their strength in the Force, but the prequels never present them as being the source of the Force or its generator. In TPM, we learn that they're organisms which live in the cells of all living things - not just Jedi - and that they are connected to the Force. They're just an extra link in how people tune in to it. The Force still exists totally independent of them. 

 

Plus, the Yoda of ESB is meant to be more enlightened and wiser than the Yoda of TPM. 'Luminous beings are we' is supposed to be a better idea than 'Not even Master Yoda has a midichlorian count that high'. 

 

I think it's a slightly half-baked aspect of the prequels which has become a massive deal unnecessarily.  

post #1711 of 4021

In Return of the Jedi, Luke says the Force is strong in his family. It's always been a bloodline thing.

post #1712 of 4021

Here's an article by J.W. Rinzler, who wrote the amazing 'Making of...' books that came out over the last ten years.

 

http://www.starwars.com/news/so-what-the-heck-are-midi-chlorians

 

Quote:

But the question is, does the advent of midi-chlorians really change anything? Lucas never said that regular people have no midi-chlorians (except when he was joking: “Han Solo has no midi-chlorians. He’s a zombie.”). In fact, he said just the opposite. When speaking more seriously about them, he stated: “Midi-chlorians are like a single entity: meaning each one doesn’t think individually and have a life to itself; they think as a unit because there’s so many of them and they’re everywhere. They’re in every single cell [italics added]. And sometimes there’s more than one in a cell. Sometimes there’s a whole bunch in a cell. But there has to be at least one in a cell, otherwise the cell can’t reproduce. All cells. Plant cells. Every life form has a midi-chlorian living inside of them.” [italics added]

So, despite blood-tests that show your aptitude, learning the Force is still like Yoga, or boxing. You might be born more lithe, or bigger and stronger, but, because we all have midi-chlorians in us, we can all develop the Force to lesser or greater extents — in the world of Star Wars.

post #1713 of 4021

So basically midi-chlorians don't matter? That's some economic world building right there!

post #1714 of 4021

Either that or some pretty inept retconning. If they're just supposed to just be Force fast-twitch muscles or whatever, then why aren't people going around getting midi-chlorian injections to become Super Jedi? This is where the VAGUE part of vague spiritualism really comes in handy. 

post #1715 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splatoon View Post
 

This is where the VAGUE part of vague spiritualism really comes in handy. 

 

Keep magical stuff mysterious. Not completely arbitrary or ridiculously inconsistent. But explain only the bare minimum you need to, and leave the rest for wonder and wondering.

post #1716 of 4021

 

Quote:

So basically midi-chlorians don't matter? That's some economic world building right there!

 
 
There's no rule of world-building that says only the essential details need to be conveyed. It's an extra detail that gives the later stuff about manipulating midi-chlorians to extend life a little bit more set-up. 

 

Quote:
If they're just supposed to just be Force fast-twitch muscles or whatever, then why aren't people going around getting midi-chlorian injections to become Super Jedi?

 

It'll be a similar reason to how injecting more blood into a healthy person doesn't make them live longer. Or perhaps the midi-chlorians would die in the process. If this came up, there are thousands of explanations they could provide for why this wouldn't work. 

post #1717 of 4021
I got a problem if the movies say the Force COMES from the midichlorians.

But if a higher count of them is only a SIGN of greater Force sensitivity and they don't cause any of it...they just happen to be there as some weird link that is a physical way to gauge it....I have less of a problem with that..
post #1718 of 4021

I'm ashamed of myself for getting back into this. I'd been clean for like 2 years!

post #1719 of 4021

It's just a dumb, confusing and unnecessary element that overly complicates how the SW universe functions. 

 

Force use can be something roughly parallel to musical or athletic talent. Some folks are just born prodigies. Some folks can learn by hard practice. Some people are just fucked and can't do it.

 

Boom. 

post #1720 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

It's just a dumb, confusing and unnecessary element that overly complicates how the SW universe functions. 

Force use can be something roughly parallel to musical or athletic talent. Some folks are just born prodigies. Some folks can learn by hard practice. Some people are just fucked and can't do it.

Boom. 
This.

Best case scenario...we never hear the M word in the movies again.

Bester case scenario? Georgie had never introduced that dumb concept in the first place but....we are where we are now..
post #1721 of 4021

I think the greatest shade in the galaxy is: May the Midichlorians Be In You.

post #1722 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

It's just a dumb, confusing and unnecessary element that overly complicates how the SW universe functions. 

 

Force use can be something roughly parallel to musical or athletic talent. Some folks are just born prodigies. Some folks can learn by hard practice. Some people are just fucked and can't do it.

 

Boom. 

I think the concept its stupid, but I always assumed (wrongly) that the Midichlorians  were just the biological gateway for living beings to channel the force, nothing else.

I thought the number of Midichlorians in a being just meant a higher or lower potential in channeling and learning to use the force, not mastering it.

But I was wrong.

post #1723 of 4021
Star Wars and the force are fantasy - the minute you try and explain how the force works you get into sci-fi territory and that just muddies the waters.

The force just is the same way that immortals in Highlander just are. Midiclorians are the SW equivalent of Planet Zeiss.
post #1724 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Star Wars and the force are fantasy - the minute you try and explain how the force works you get into sci-fi territory and that just muddies the waters.

The force just is the same way that immortals in Highlander just are. Midiclorians are the SW equivalent of Planet Zeiss.

 

As evidenced by the original Highlander, which as we all know was a documentary where the events happened in real time, the secret to becoming immortal is hurling yourself off a magic cliff. 

post #1725 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

The whole message of the prequels, perhaps not communicated well, is becoming a Force ghost is a true form of immortality. The Sith keep seeking ways to live forever in physical form, but Qui-Gon discovered a way to transcend the flesh.

I don't know if it's power or morality, it's more about enlightenment. 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post


I HAAAATTTED that little throwaway line in the Prequels (see, I can't even remember if it was II or III).

When Obi-Wan spoke to Luke after disappearing in Wars it was a big deal, but also something that, like the Force itself, seemed ancient and mysterious. And when he showed up as a ghost in ESB and JEDI after Yoda ALSO disappeared at death, it also seemed to imply that this is simply something that is possible if you're strong with the Force.

Finding out that the ability to do the Force Ghost thing is LITERALLY something they JUST FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO 30 YEARS AGO was the cherry on top of the midichlorian sundae in robbing the sense of timeless mystery from the Force.
post #1726 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Olmos View Post


I HAAAATTTED that little throwaway line in the Prequels (see, I can't even remember if it was II or III).

When Obi-Wan spoke to Luke after disappearing in Wars it was a big deal, but also something that, like the Force itself, seemed ancient and mysterious. And when he showed up as a ghost in ESB and JEDI after Yoda ALSO disappeared at death, it also seemed to imply that this is simply something that is possible if you're strong with the Force.

Finding out that the ability to do the Force Ghost thing is LITERALLY something they JUST FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO 30 YEARS AGO was the cherry on top of the midichlorian sundae in robbing the sense of timeless mystery from the Force.

Ahhahahahahaha I never realised that. Just 20 years earlier in the whole history of the Jedi did they learn how to do that. Imagine being Obi-Wan and having to spend the rest of eternity with no one but both of his former teachers. He'll forever be the bitch of the group. Bet he can't wait until Luke bites it so he'll have someone to boss around.
post #1727 of 4021
So where the hell is Qui-Ghost at the end of ROTJ?!

I DEMAND consistency with these fucked up changes if they're gonna be implemented!
post #1728 of 4021

post #1729 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Olmos View Post

Finding out that the ability to do the Force Ghost thing is LITERALLY something they JUST FIGURED OUT HOW TO DO 30 YEARS AGO was the cherry on top of the midichlorian sundae in robbing the sense of timeless mystery from the Force.

 

It's never communicated explicity, but I always found the Jedi Order as portrayed in the Prequels as an organization that has fundamentally lost their way. They're effectively the neutered, domesticated envoys of the Galactic Republic in the first film. Defunct because their Sith enemies haven't appeared in thousands of years, and they're too conservative in their views to take on a child with immense talent. What's to say they didn't understand how Force Ghosts work? Honestly, the way the Jedi take control of the clone armies and instill their members as generals is very suspicious. If Lucas' writing wasn't so muddled he might have been able to use the whole Sifo-Dyas thing to create a more morally-grey picture of the Jedi, and lend credence to Palpatine's claims that the Jedi were trying to take over.

post #1730 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mojj View Post

It's never communicated explicity, but I always found the Jedi Order as portrayed in the Prequels as an organization that has fundamentally lost their way.
Qui-Gon's background, which Lucas developed but doesn't really get explained in the films, suggests that that was Lucas' original intention.
post #1731 of 4021
The Jedi in the prequels were AWFUL AWFUL assholes.

What they needed to be were a whole bunch of Takashi Shimura from Seven Samurai-like characters....wandering the galaxy, righting wrongs, bringing enlightenment and getting into adventures. Qui-Gon was actually a decent template if he'd found his way into a good movie....disconnected from the drudgery of the Jedi Order and their stupid council..
post #1732 of 4021

It was the explicit text of the prequels that the Jedi order and the Republic were stagnant organisations brought down in part by their own arrogance and unwieldy bureaucracy. You literally had characters accusing them of that.

 

There are many legitimate angles to attack those films, but that stuff was obviously quite deliberate and fully in keeping with Lucas' philosophy over his entire career.

 

As for Midichlorians, that was kind of dumb and pointlessly literal minded, but it didn't fundamentally change anything about the nature of the force as established in the earlier films, it just couched it in pseudo-scientific language.

post #1733 of 4021
It was deliberate, sure. (Though I'm not sure that he quite intended it to come across to the extent it did - it's one thing to have them too stuck in their own minds to recognize the threat building around them, but in their actions and reactions they pretty much come across as straight-up ninnies.) But it isn't satisfactory on a story level. The OT would have us think that the era of the Republic and the Jedi Order was a golden age ("Before the dark times. Before the Empire,") and that their downfall was the result of treachery on the part of Vader. The whole arc of the trilogy has the audience rooting for a return of both. But then the prequels show us a Republic that just plain doesn't give a fuck when a member system invades and apparently starts systematically imprisoning and/or exterminating the populace of another member system, and a Jedi Order that deliberately stunts its pupils emotionally in order to keep them "unattached," and all but hands Palpatine a do-it-yourself Vader kit on a silver platter by taking Anakin from his home and family only to ostracize him on account of some vague-ass prophecy that is finally revealed to basically be bullshit anyway! These disparate takes cannot both be true, but taking the OT and PT as a whole requires us to somehow accept that they are. That's nonsense.
post #1734 of 4021
Oh god that prophecy...

...how to handle that bullshit?

Ignore it in film two and negate it in film three.

Oh god that prophecy. Such a fucking awful, awful plot contrivance.

It was mentioned in the first trailer for TPM and I got a hmmmm, really? feeling back then.
post #1735 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Oh god that prophecy...

...how to handle that bullshit?

Ignore it in film two and negate it in film three.

Oh god that prophecy. Such a fucking awful, awful plot contrivance.

It was mentioned in the first trailer for TPM and I got a hmmmm, really? feeling back then.
The novelization of TFA opens with a very vague quote from the Journal of the Whills that kinda suggests how they're reinterpreting that prophecy.
post #1736 of 4021
I think it's absolutely hilarious how they didn't see that whole "bring balance to the Force" thing coming. What a bunch of yo yos..
post #1737 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

The novelization of TFA opens with a very vague quote from the Journal of the Whills that kinda suggests how they're reinterpreting that prophecy.

Really? Oh dear god does that mean they're carrying it forward? Is Rey going to be the chosen one?
post #1738 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Really? Oh dear god does that mean they're carrying it forward? Is Rey going to be the chosen one?
Don't do this to me Disney! I will drop back outta this whole thing again so fast..
post #1739 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Really? Oh dear god does that mean they're carrying it forward? Is Rey going to be the chosen one?
Hooo boy.
post #1740 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Really? Oh dear god does that mean they're carrying it forward? Is Rey going to be the chosen one?
I dunno. Here's the quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
"First comes the day
Then comes the night.
After the darkness
Shines through the light.
The difference, they say,
Is only made right
By the resolving of gray
Through refined Jedi sight."

There are other rumors floating around about VIII's plot revelations, but this isn't the thread for that.
post #1741 of 4021

It has been argued that Vader sacrificing himself and offing Palpatine was him fulfilling his role as the one to bring balance to the Force.

post #1742 of 4021
Well it's just been announced that TFA 3D Blu-Ray is being released in October - now with 100% extra JJ commentary track. So that should be good for a laugh as he digs himself further into a hole.
post #1743 of 4021
The film was critically and commercially successful, if you want to buy the 3D blu-ray just to hear him "dig himself into a hole", more power to him I guess.
post #1744 of 4021

oooh, I wanna listen!

 

It will be nothing but delightful praise and things going exactly as they should!  Is Kasdan not on it with him?  I feel like he should be for the commentary track to be worth it.

post #1745 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Really? Oh dear god does that mean they're carrying it forward? Is Rey going to be the chosen one?
I dunno. Here's the quote:
Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
"First comes the day
Then comes the night.
After the darkness
Shines through the light.
The difference, they say,
Is only made right
By the resolving of gray
Through refined Jedi sight."

There are other rumors floating around about VIII's plot revelations, but this isn't the thread for that.
Wow. That's some junior-high level bad poetry there.
post #1746 of 4021

BEWARE MY POWER...

GREEN JEDI'S LIGHT!!!

post #1747 of 4021
I'm holding out for the TFA 3-D Blue Rey
post #1748 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

oooh, I wanna listen!

It will be nothing but delightful praise and things going exactly as they should!  Is Kasdan not on it with him?  I feel like he should be for the commentary track to be worth it.

You drink every time he says "Delightful!"
post #1749 of 4021
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post


I dunno. Here's the quote: Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
 

There are other rumors floating around about VIII's plot revelations, but this isn't the thread for that.

 

LOLOLOL

post #1750 of 4021
Yeah that's fucking terrible.
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