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post #151 of 12068

Olmos is totally right.

 

The best example they should follow is this scene from the original Clone Wars shorts of Mace Windu fighting droids.  Once he loses his lightsaber he proceeds to just WRECK SHIT.  To such an extent that using a lightsaber seems pretty perfunctory.

 

Starts at about 2:30.

 

post #152 of 12068
Christ no. Jedi's aren't superheroes.
post #153 of 12068

Yeah, they're just regular Joe's who can shoot lightning from their fingertips, use telekinesis and mind control on the fly and jump a couple of storeys at will.

 

Toooooootally normal.

post #154 of 12068

I love how people are already writing think pieces on why a movie they know virtually nothing about, doesn't work.  This is going to get slaughtered even worse than TFA.  And a better filmmaker is at the helm.  


Edited by Ambler - 1/19/16 at 7:45am
post #155 of 12068
If a perfect movie was ever created nowadays we wouldn't know what to do with it. A post-release thread would be started but would remain empty for eternity.

We only exist to rip things apart. Not having been made yet is no excuse for the shitty job the writers and directors did in not getting the movie made yet. If they'd have given it to a different director, one who wasn't so pedestrian and a writer who actually gave a shit, you know, that writer who wrote that thing that you like, then the thing would have been made by now and we could rip it apart based on its own merits.

I blame Hollywood.

Or Obama.

No, Hollywood.

But the one from Mannequin.
post #156 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

We only exist to rip things apart.

 

We choose to rip things apart.  It's not like we don't have a choice.  There are plenty of other threads if people get bored.

post #157 of 12068
I've been predicting for a little while that the post-release on this film will be just as ugly, if not uglier, than the response to TFA.
post #158 of 12068
What if we like ripping things apart? What if we find it cathartic to pick holes in something that was created by the best in the business, by masters supposedly at the top of their games? Paid in millions and lauded by their peers? What if we enjoy that? What if you don't?
post #159 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

What if we like ripping things apart?

 

Nothing.  I don't care.  I'm saying there are alternatives.  

post #160 of 12068
It's either this or we go back to talking about our exes in the depression thread. Your move Ambler.
post #161 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
 

 

We choose to rip things apart.  It's not like we don't have a choice.  There are plenty of other threads if people get bored.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post
 

I love how people are already writing think pieces on why a movie they know virtually nothing about, doesn't work.  This is going to get slaughtered even worse than TFA.  And a better filmmaker is at the helm.  


Dude, how on all the moons of Jupiter am I ripping THE MOVIE apart?  I wrote (and supported my opinion pretty darn well I think) a reaction to a very specific plot rumor that you posted.  If folks can't have reactions (and again, I didn't just say "this sucks!" - I wrote a reasoned reply about the narrative established in the OT and how I think the rumor you posted fits into that) to stuff other people post then we're just all just posting to hear ourselves talk.  Disagree with the content of what I said or my logic, don't bash me for having a reaction to your post and explaining why I feel that way.

post #162 of 12068

You can write what you want, I still feel like we know nothing about the context of those scenes, so seems silly to bash it based on incomplete information.  But that's just me.

post #163 of 12068
What wears me down are the terms of the discussion. I don't care if someone likes or hates a film, I just want the conversation to be interesting. I don't care about plot holes much. Never have.

Instead of, say, griping about the R2-D2 lazy plot maneuver (which inevitably leads to a predictable and therefore tedious debate about whether or not it makes sense), let's talk about how this film does and doesn't fit with classical myth forms and what parallels can be drawn between it and Western/Eastern myth tropes (if any). Or what have you. Something less predictable and with a wider scope.

Look, I'm as guilty as anyone: good conversation takes work, and I'm just coasting through these threads. I'm essentially the cynical guy who endlessly bitches about our political situation and never does anything to change it.
post #164 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post
Instead of, say, griping about the R2-D2 lazy plot maneuver (which inevitably leads to a predictable and therefore tedious debate about whether or not it makes sense), let's talk about how this film does and doesn't fit with classical myth forms and what parallels can be drawn between it and Western/Eastern myth tropes (if any). Or what have you. Something less predictable and with a wider scope.

 

Exactly, the SW films are so rich in many different areas that would provide amazing discussion, but these conversations always seem to predictably become about nitpicking plot specifics.  It's so boring.

post #165 of 12068
Possibly because the latest SW film wasn't rich in many different areas? Almost comically so.
post #166 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

If a perfect movie was ever created nowadays we wouldn't know what to do with it.

We did get that movie: Fury Road. And it was perfect! Perfect in every way!
post #167 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by sirjonsnow View Post

We did get that movie: Fury Road. And it was perfect! Perfect in every way!

Almost. Almost perfect.
post #168 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

What wears me down are the terms of the discussion. I don't care if someone likes or hates a film, I just want the conversation to be interesting. I don't care about plot holes much. Never have.

Instead of, say, griping about the R2-D2 lazy plot maneuver (which inevitably leads to a predictable and therefore tedious debate about whether or not it makes sense), let's talk about how this film does and doesn't fit with classical myth forms and what parallels can be drawn between it and Western/Eastern myth tropes (if any). Or what have you. Something less predictable and with a wider scope.

Look, I'm as guilty as anyone: good conversation takes work, and I'm just coasting through these threads. I'm essentially the cynical guy who endlessly bitches about our political situation and never does anything to change it.

The second I give THIS film that much thought I feel like a fucking idiot, as should you.  That's not even the level the original Star Wars was operating on, but at least you're not so distracted by aggressively distracting stuff with films like the OT, Guardians, Serenity.  You can afford to get into deeper discussions with those films because they're not hot messes that keep poking you with how fucking slap dash they are.  

post #169 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

The second I give THIS film that much thought I feel like a fucking idiot, as should you.
Suit yourself. Let's go back to bitching endlessly about the same things over and over again.

There's something to be said for giving deep thought to even those cultural objects that don't deserve it, not because it enriches the object but because it enriches us.

Besides, genre analysis, if done right, doesn't distinguish between the quality of objects when analyzing them and evaluating how they fit into existing genre schemes.
post #170 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
 

The second I give THIS film that much thought I feel like a fucking idiot, as should you.  That's not even the level the original Star Wars was operating on, but at least you're not so distracted by aggressively distracting stuff with films like the OT, Guardians, Serenity.  You can afford to get into deeper discussions with those films because they're not hot messes.  


I think calling it a "hot mess" is getting a bit hyperbolic - Take away the nit-picking issues like R2D2 waking up at such and such a time and the edit that makes it look like Leia walks past Chewie post-Han, etc... (and annoying or not, I do think these are nit-picks the likes of which we could find in the OT if we cared to look for them) and this film has only one real, structural issue in that the Starkiller is a vestigial structure from an earlier script.  

 

Taken another way, every Star Wars film to date has followed the stakes and framing narrative of the Opening Crawl... except Episode VII.   Episode VII spends 2/3 of the film following the opening crawl's plot, and then screen time is given to a different film, and then it ends with the culmination of the quest set out in the opening.  This is purely a writing issue, and once the decision was made to shoot that script there's not a director in the world who could have delivered a structurally different film, which is what would be needed.  The fact that the director was one of the screenwriters in this case (and because it's, you know, STAR WARS) is why this is getting more attention then the hundred other films we've watched in the last 2 decades with half-baked scripts whose directors hoped to "find it in the edit."

post #171 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post


Suit yourself. Let's go back to bitching endlessly about the same things over and over again.

There's something to be said for giving deep thought to even those cultural objects that don't deserve it, not because it enriches the object but because it enriches us.

Besides, genre analysis, if done right, doesn't distinguish between the quality of objects when analyzing them and evaluating how they fit into existing genre schemes.

By all means, you've had hundreds of pages to start the intellectually pleasing discussion.  Go ahead.  

post #172 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Possibly because the latest SW film wasn't rich in many different areas? Almost comically so.

 

As a Star Wars movie it has plenty of the same elements as the previous films in terms of moral, philosophical, spiritual and allegorical overtones.  They're there, regardless of what you think about the actual film.  And since people like talking about Star Wars so much, wouldn't the discussion be reinvigorating by these other topics?  I can go to theforcenet boards if I want endless, one-note nitpicking... I come to CHUD because it's supposed to be different.  Supposed being the key word.

post #173 of 12068

UGH.  You guys should just wear your red "Make CHUD Great Again" ball caps and be done with it.  

post #174 of 12068
You could respond to Barry's endless suggestions for discussion fodder!
post #175 of 12068

MAKE CHUD GREAT AGAIN!

 

Never mind that none of you start the kind of discussions you want to see around here.  Just like Trump, pie in the sky promises meaning nothing at all!

post #176 of 12068
I'm now 100% certain that the movie I saw was a different movie to the one that 99% of you saw.

Wanting to discuss the latest movie but not being able to acknowledge plot holes, ropey character motivation and general story malaise because you think it's nitpicking is bizarre. They'd the very thing we should be able to discuss ntheyre the very things that make up the movie.

It seems some of you want a deep intellectual discussion on Star Wars and its impact on the movie world and the world as a whole, because let's face it, this being the Internet that's the one thing that's missing and its not like that particular discussion is not the very bedrock that a huge percentage of movie sites are built on.

Ambler, you said that you can go to theforcenet if you want nitpicking discussion. That's the very place you can't go to to nitpick as any discussion that verges towards negativity is instantly shut down. If anything, they'd welcome your "let's discus a Star Wars but seriously this time, I mean it guys" type of chat. And you're fucking welcome to them, because in all seriousness they're all fucking loonies. They'd rather discuss Star Wars as a religion rather than a series of movies.

These boards of all places should be where we can discuss any area of a movie with any degree of reverence - personally other than surface sheen there's very little for me to glean from TFA. There are serious flaws with the movie that are getting called out as nitpicking. Not a chance - they're flaws. Big shiny, ball-swinging flaws.
post #177 of 12068

Who said you can't nitpick?  But nitpicking is all anybody seems to do.  Look at TFA post release thread!  When that becomes what the place is about, it's boring and one-note and really a disservice to a film that has so much more to offer.

post #178 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

I'm now 100% certain that the movie I saw was a different movie to the one that 99% of you saw.

Wanting to discuss the latest movie but not being able to acknowledge plot holes, ropey character motivation and general story malaise because you think it's nitpicking is bizarre. They'd the very thing we should be able to discuss ntheyre the very things that make up the movie.

It seems some of you want a deep intellectual discussion on Star Wars and its impact on the movie world and the world as a whole, because let's face it, this being the Internet that's the one thing that's missing and its not like that particular discussion is not the very bedrock that a huge percentage of movie sites are built on.

Ambler, you said that you can go to theforcenet if you want nitpicking discussion. That's the very place you can't go to to nitpick as any discussion that verges towards negativity is instantly shut down. If anything, they'd welcome your "let's discus a Star Wars but seriously this time, I mean it guys" type of chat. And you're fucking welcome to them, because in all seriousness they're all fucking loonies. They'd rather discuss Star Wars as a religion rather than a series of movies.

These boards of all places should be where we can discuss any area of a movie with any degree of reverence - personally other than surface sheen there's very little for me to glean from TFA. There are serious flaws with the movie that are getting called out as nitpicking. Not a chance - they're flaws. Big shiny, ball-swinging flaws.

"The Starkiller base is really the only flaw in the movie."

 

-This forum, still in denial.  

post #179 of 12068
People said the same in the Ultrum thread too...

Remember, Freeman? Team woof?
post #180 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

People said the same in the Ultrum thread too...

Remember, Freeman? Team woof?

Ultimately a better movie than the TFA.  Time will be my ally, even if you will not.  

post #181 of 12068
Honestly, I don't recall anyone truly offering up deeper discussion material for this movie. At least none that I found compelling enough to respond to or remember.

From people who liked the movie a great deal, it was usually questions about where things could go in the next one which results in this thread being started soon after.

It's very difficult to talk about deeper things with a movie THIS surface and cobbled together in a way that really feels like a greatest hits rehash. Any attempt to do so usually ends up feeling like us doing all the work for a movie that doesn't give enough back in return (the way it was so easy to do with Fury Road for instance).

The real test is gonna be with Johnson's movie. Hopefully it really does break the mold in some fashion (as much as one can with corporate product).
post #182 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

It's very difficult to talk about deeper things with a movie THIS surface and cobbled together in a way that really feels like a greatest hits rehash. 

 

Are we really doing this again?

post #183 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Honestly, I don't recall anyone truly offering up deeper discussion material for this movie. At least none that I found compelling enough to respond to or remember.

From people who liked the movie a great deal, it was usually questions about where things could go in the next one which results in this thread being started soon after.

It's very difficult to talk about deeper things with a movie THIS surface and cobbled together in a way that really feels like a greatest hits rehash. Any attempt to do so usually ends up feeling like us doing all the work for a movie that doesn't give enough back in return (the way it was so easy to do with Fury Road for instance).

The real test is gonna be with Johnson's movie. Hopefully it really does break the mold in some fashion (as much as one can with corporate product).

I knew I kept you around for a reason!  Your occasional eloquence is very helpful.

 

post #184 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

Are we really doing this again?

We don't have to!

We have a choice!

choice

choice

choice....

I've mentioned before, I love the first third of the movie when it was playing with fun twists in repeating elements of the original film.

It's really with Starkiller (whether it could be helped or not) that it eventually came to feel like too much without enough freshness to make the whole feel perfunctorily repetitive.

Had the Starkiller thing not been an obligation to end with, I wouldn't judge the overall movie as harshly. If it had taken the familiar early on and taken it someplace more natural to what was promised in the crawl...
post #185 of 12068
I mean... one could've overlooked Man of Steel's immense flaws and still have talked about the subtext inherent to the Superman story... but that didn't really happen much there either from what I can recall. Except from someone like Bart!

Usually Bart is good about bringing that kind of analysis to almost anything, and I'm sure he brought it to Superman.

But I think he's too busy being a good dad to give the same kind of attention to Forwakens.
post #186 of 12068

Jesus you guys are so fucking weird.  All you seem to obsess about is what the movie did wrong.  A movie that got things mostly right seems no better than your average Transformer flick, based on the tone of the place.  At this point, who fucking cares, criticize the movie until you're blue in the face.  I'm so sick of fandom at this point.

post #187 of 12068
Transformers 2 is best. At least with Transformers, you could really get into the ugly right-wing cinematic tendencies of Michael Bay's filmmaking... each one doubling down from the last.

But seriously... can anyone bring back up what deeper discussion fodder for this movie that has been provided by anyone (except for Barry's kitchen sink approach)?

I honestly can't remember. Either that or I missed it when this thread was going really really fast for the first couple of weeks.

Obviously I'm at a loss for trying to mine anything in particular with this movie.

Like, this isn't something like Ex Machina... where I could happily discuss all sorts of ideas and themes all day despite not being all that taken with the movie itself.
post #188 of 12068

Transformers 2 is better than this crap.  

post #189 of 12068
oh freeman...

tut tut
post #190 of 12068

The harping on the Chewie hug is what really gets to me.  He already had a hug with Leia when she first shows up, and there's nothing to indicate they can't catch up afterwards.  Hell, to have another hug would be redundant, and maybe they even shot one, but from an editing/storytelling standpoint, Rey is the one we needed to see at that point.

post #191 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

oh freeman...

tut tut

I meant the quality of this conversation.

 

Tehehehehehe!

post #192 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottieFerguson View Post

The harping on the Chewie hug is what really gets to me.  He already had a hug with Leia when she first shows up, and there's nothing to indicate they can't catch up afterwards.  Hell, to have another hug would be redundant, and maybe they even shot one, but from an editing/storytelling standpoint, Rey is the one we needed to see at that point.

Yeah, honestly I didn't even think about that when I saw the movie. So it was never an issue for me.

I can see why it would bug Bucho though.


So... can anyone please refresh my memory of richer discussion fodder for this movie?
post #193 of 12068
Jesus fucking Christ Rey doesn't need a hug from Leia, Rey needs a "who the fuck are you and why are you driving my dead husbands spaceship?" From Leia.

Chewie and Leia need to hug to be the emotional payoff for the characters and the audience.

For someone whose meant to idolise Spielberg, JJ really has no idea how to create emotional human moments, something that's at the very heart of All of speilbergs movies.
post #194 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post


Yeah, honestly I didn't even think about that when I saw the movie. So it was never an issue for me.

I can see why it would bug Bucho though.


So... can anyone please refresh my memory of richer discussion fodder for this movie?

Uhhh... Huh...  What IS the richer discussion fodder that's specifically about TFA?  Most of it is based on episode 8.  

post #195 of 12068

Somebody except freeman, PLEASE!!!

 

REMIND ME!

 

Frasier will help me!

 

FRAJERRRRR!!!!

post #196 of 12068

post #197 of 12068
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post


let's talk about how this film does and doesn't fit with classical myth forms and what parallels can be drawn between it and Western/Eastern myth tropes (if any). Or what have you. Something less predictable and with a wider scope.
 

That would be great, but it feels like any attempt to do that would cover well-worn territory that just goes back to the original movies.  That only goes back to Lucas being inspired by a variety of creative sources when making the original film, while Forwakens seems only inspired by star war movies... and that just leads back to us bickering about nitpicking the new movie again.

 

Since this new movie feels like such a big PERHAPS MAYBE leading to the next movie, it's difficult to get into a real discussion about that without getting into what essentially sounds like over-elaborate fanfic.  Fluff on top of another layer of fluff.

 

Has Abrams or Kasdan talked about being inspired by anything outside of star war when writing this?

 

Honestly... I CANNOT RECALL.

post #198 of 12068
It's practically impossible to discuss what parallels are drawn with established myths with such a Frankenstein of a script. As Nooj has stated, the only thing TFA references is the OT. The only reason it makes sense and is accessible to us is because we're familiar with the OT.
post #199 of 12068
post #200 of 12068

Another word salad.  He name drops Malick as "an emotional filmmaker" but doesn't have any content for us beyond that.  So maybe he borrowed from him.  Maybe not.  After that he talks about how he slowed down the pacing.  Imagine how INSANELY fast the movie must have been before.  

 

Basically the influences are the first three movies and not much else.  

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