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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) Pre-Release Discussion - Page 35

post #1701 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Olmos View Post

I'll take the movie that connects its scenes with something vaguely resembling a plot, has pretty establishing shots, indulges in egregious and distasteful fanservice, and adds something new to the mythos.
Fixed that for ya. wink.gif

Let's not lie: THE FORCE AWAKENS brought new stuff to the mythos too. Like I said, both movies are about even on the fanservice vs. interesting new material stuff. And neither film is particularly great at either.

It's just that one of them is an inert dirge and one of them has the decency to have the ghost of energy, charisma, and heart. It's not the same as the real thing, but it's something.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Olmos View Post

Also one that has the balls to be self-contained, and take some actual risks.
There is absolutely *nothing* self-contained about ROGUE ONE! Its whole existence and resonance depends on STAR WARS '77!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Analog Olmos View Post

I love you Agent, I just feel really strongly about my Star Wars rankings.
So do we all.
post #1702 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post

The storyline for Star Wars IX is going to be heavily reworked.  

Easily fixed and helps lay the groundwork for Disney's new self-sustaining saga...

A long time ago, in a galaxy far,
far away...


STAR
WARS

Episode IX

Princess Leia has vanished...







What?
post #1703 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post


Easily fixed and helps lay the groundwork for Disney's new self-sustaining saga...

A long time ago, in a galaxy far,
far away...


STAR
WARS

Episode IX

Princess Leia has vanished...







Too Soon


Fixed

post #1704 of 9091
Double Post
post #1705 of 9091
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post


Easily fixed and helps lay the groundwork for Disney's new self-sustaining saga...

A long time ago, in a galaxy far,
far away...


STAR
WARS

Episode IX

Princess Leia has vanished...

 

 

The people working on Star Wars VIII are having a collective panic attack right now.

post #1706 of 9091

I just hope they find a way to rework IX without drastically altering VIII.

post #1707 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
 

 

The people working on Star Wars VIII are having a collective panic attack right now.

I rather think they're allowed, no? I mean, less than 48 hours have passed since they lost their friend and colleague - Kennedy, in particular, had almost certainly known Fisher for decades (Fisher helped polish Hook which Kennedy produced, after all - not even getting into that they traveled in much the same Hollywood circles thanks to the Lucas-Spielberg connection). For them to be johnny-on-the-spot with an immediate solution would be rather cold-blooded, particularly given the rumors about what happens to Leia in the film.

 

But for people like Johnson and Kennedy and the story group to have an immediate reaction of grief and panic is I think entirely fair at this point in time. I won't judge them for that. Obviously, they're going to have to come up with an answer somewhere down the line, but I certainly wouldn't expect that of them right now.

post #1708 of 9091
Oh God, can this talk fuck right off please? These moobies will be just fine. We'll never know what they would've been had this tragedy NOT happened but it did. Who cares what the opening crawl is gonna say to smooth things over? Two people just died..
post #1709 of 9091
Fraid, what are you doing have tact and perspective and decency in a Star Wars thread?
post #1710 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

... both movies are about even on the fanservice vs. interesting new material stuff.

Not even close Agent.

TFA is a base of fanservice with three or four bits of new stuff tacked on.
Rogue One is a base of new stuff with three or four bits of fanservice tacked on.

That Rogue One feels so much more fresh and epic and its own deal when it links directly to A New Hope, while The Fanservice Awakens fails almost entirely not to feel somewhat stale and slavish even with 30 years of separation from The OT, is one of the most maddening ironies in the entire history of human storytelling.
post #1711 of 9091
Fraid gets it. I just wanna look forward to seeing Carrie on the big screen one last time then worry about how Trevororororo will bungle IX after.
post #1712 of 9091

I think we all want that. While Carrie's scenes have all been filmed, they may be in service to an EPISODE IX that can never be. I'd hate to see her Frankensteined into situations for which her performance was never intended. Ideally they try do their damnedest to preserve as much of her work as originally intended, even if that makes it more challenging for them on the sequel.


Edited by Barry Woodward - 12/28/16 at 10:46pm
post #1713 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucho View Post

Not even close Agent.

TFA is a base of fanservice with three or four bits of new stuff tacked on.
Rogue One is a base of new stuff with three or four bits of fanservice tacked on.
I don't have the willpower to continue this conversation in earnest, but I have enough willpower to tell you that you're wrong! So wrong!

Really, it's all just a matter of perspective!
post #1714 of 9091

And your perspective is the wrong one.

post #1715 of 9091
It's hard to criticize ROGUE ONE for being fan service because that's what it's designed to do. That's why I had more fun watching the last third because it's all good set pieces with fan service about, whereas during the first hour I'm not at all connecting with the characters and their drama is just boring.

The fan service in TFA is eye rolling but they go by so quickly like that target ball thingy or the holographic chess game. Dumb fan service bits that could easily be cut out and there's nothing lost, unless you're the type of fan that shouts at the screen "HEY I KNOW THAT STUFF!!! I'VE SEEN IT BEFORE!" as RLM dramatized it.
post #1716 of 9091
I don't have a problem with quick nods to the fans, but Episode VII being a condensed greatest hits package of the OT sunk it for myself. It's all so superficially nice and pleasant and inviting, and thoroughly calculated and mechanical underneath. It tries so damned hard to recapture the magic, that it enters ludicrous speed and passes it by.

Yes, I'm having a shit week. Why do you ask?
post #1717 of 9091
Both DisneyWars movies are "thoroughly calculated and mechanical." It's what's so off-putting about them. They're not stories, they're just badly stitched-together ideas with half-baked characters.

But in the better moments of TFA and RO, we get glimpses of the movies they could be. Movies that really would be special and interesting.
post #1718 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

It's hard to criticize ROGUE ONE for being fan service because that's what it's designed to do. That's why I had more fun watching the last third because it's all good set pieces with fan service about, whereas during the first hour I'm not at all connecting with the characters and their drama is just boring.

The fan service in TFA is eye rolling but they go by so quickly like that target ball thingy or the holographic chess game. Dumb fan service bits that could easily be cut out and there's nothing lost, unless you're the type of fan that shouts at the screen "HEY I KNOW THAT STUFF!!! I'VE SEEN IT BEFORE!" as RLM dramatized it.

Actually, they don't breeze past it. The entire frame work of the movie is constantly prodding you in the fucking shoulder with its fan service, and if it's not one off throwaway gags like the chess board that come and go constantly disengaging you from being emersed, the third act makes damn well sure you never forget fan service by dropping the pretense and being as new hope as fuck. The planet drama and fun is great, but it's absolutely slathered in the framework of MEEEEEEMBA?!

Memba death star? Memba trench run? Memba mind tricks?

Force Awakens almost aggressively works to pull me out of enjoying the wonderful new stuff. Why???? Let me enjoy this new story JJ! I don't care how much pressure was on you to make it feel like the OT and how "it'll be totally fresh in the next one!" There was only one TFA, it was a SPECIAL moment in time, and I wanted to live in that movie without reservation and it almost never lets me!

Rogue one for all its many faults, with the exception of maybe the bar guys joke, never ever pushed me out of the story rogue one was telling. Somehow all the pandering stuff RLM complains bothered them didn't occur to me as anything but story elements.
post #1719 of 9091
ALL A MATTER OF PERSPECTIVE
post #1720 of 9091
Of course it didn't bother you as much Freeman, because R1 is fanservice by its very design. It's hard to complain about fan service in a movie that's nothing but.
post #1721 of 9091
And TFA is NOT fan service by its very design. Right.

Wasn't SUPPOSED to be!
post #1722 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

And TFA is NOT fan service by its very design. Right.

Wasn't SUPPOSED to be!

Not as much as R1, at least.
post #1723 of 9091
Much worse! Much much worse!
post #1724 of 9091

The radical about-face towards THE FORCE AWAKENS in some segments of the fan community continues to amuse me.

 

Is it "fan service?"  Absolutely.  I don't know why that's now inherently a bad thing, though.  And the idea that TFA brings nothing new to the table is, I think, an unfair characterization.

post #1725 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

Much worse! Much much worse!

Except here's what TFA has over R1: Charismaic characters.

The pathetic Kylo Ren is vastly a much more interesting antagonist than General Whatever from R1.
post #1726 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belloq87 View Post

And the idea that TFA brings nothing new to the table is, I think, an unfair characterization.
Indeed.
post #1727 of 9091
Oh you guys trying to argue about which calculated mechanical exercise in squeezing as many nostalgia dollars out of fans as possible is more worthy as a film. Hee hee!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belloq87 View Post

The radical about-face towards THE FORCE AWAKENS in some segments of the fan community continues to amuse me.
It's not an about-face if you hated it from the get-go!
post #1728 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post


Except here's what TFA has over R1: Charismaic characters.

The pathetic Kylo Ren is vastly a much more interesting antagonist than General Whatever from R1.

I break it down this way:

 

ROGUE ONE - Much better action and a more streamlined plot.

 

THE FORCE AWAKENS - Much more engaging characters, and story threads that could pay off in interesting ways in the future.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

It's not an about-face if you hated it from the get-go!

This is true!  I've got no issue with that.

post #1729 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

Oh you guys trying to argue about which calculated mechanical exercise in squeezing as many nostalgia dollars out of fans as possible is more worthy as a film. Hee hee!
It's CHUD. It's what we do!

Look how at how long and how passionately people argued about ULTRON!
post #1730 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

Look how at how long and how passionately people argued about ULTRON!

Do I even want to ask what this controversy was?  I thought the consensus was that it was a big step down from the first AVENGERS but still a fun time.

post #1731 of 9091
Yup. Like TPM, TFA feels too much like a set up for sequels whereas the original film worked as its own thing but was open ended for sequels.
post #1732 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

Yup. Like TPM, TFA feels too much like a set up for sequels whereas the original film worked as its own thing but was open ended for sequels.

True.  STAR WARS is satisfying on its own regardless of whether or not you continue on with the sequels.  However, now that we know this is an "Episodic" story and franchise, each film following is much less able to be self-contained.

post #1733 of 9091
I'm sure there's a way to make episodes both self contained and work as part of a greater story. I'd cite ATTACK OF THE CLONES as one, if it were actually good.
post #1734 of 9091
STAR WARS '77 was a breezy, Flash Gordon-style adventure.

EMPIRE turned the series into episodic space opera with a focus on familial anxieties. And it was this change that really gave STAR WARS its mythic cultural standing.

SPLINTER OF THE MIND'S EYE gives a taste of what the series might have been like if it had taken another path.
post #1735 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

I'm sure there's a way to make episodes both self contained and work as part of a greater story. I'd cite ATTACK OF THE CLONES as one, if it were actually good.

That's a major caveat!

 

I don't know that that story, perfectly executed, would have been terribly self-contained, though; there are a lot of dangling threads in there (Syfo Dias?!) that eventually go nowhere.

post #1736 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

I'm sure there's a way to make episodes both self contained and work as part of a greater story.
Of course there is.

But studios don't have much incentive to pursue self-contained movies. From their POV, it's better to have movies that lead into sequels, because it puts butts in the seats for the follow-up.
post #1737 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belloq87 View Post

That's a major caveat!

I don't know that that story, perfectly executed, would have been terribly self-contained, though; there are a lot of dangling threads in there (Syfo Dias?!) that eventually go nowhere.

A good version of that movie would have made it clear that someone merely used Syfo Dias' identity, whether it was Dooku or Palpatine. Funny thing is I didn't really pay attention to that stuff, it's only recently I found out many fans were hoping REVENGE OF THE SITH would resolve the Syfo Dias thing.
post #1738 of 9091
Oh, we're back to playing FIX THE PREQUELS!

My favorite game!
post #1739 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

Funny thing is I didn't really pay attention to that stuff, it's only recently I found out many fans were hoping REVENGE OF THE SITH would resolve the Syfo Dias thing.

I wouldn't say I was "hoping" so much as I was expecting it to be resolved.  It seemed to me that CLONES was setting that angle up to have a big revelation in SITH... which never came.

post #1740 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

Oh, we're back to playing FIX THE PREQUELS!

My favorite game!

It wouldn't be CHUD without this game!
post #1741 of 9091
I just looked this up... http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo-Dyas

So convoluted.
post #1742 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Belloq87 View Post
 

The radical about-face towards THE FORCE AWAKENS in some segments of the fan community continues to amuse me.

 

The fan community has far too much Star Wars baggage (both positive and negative) to be taken seriously.  The ridiculous levels of hype and nostalgia boners were always going to collapse in the opposite direction, almost as a function of physics.  No version of TFA was ever going to withstand these levels of scrutiny.  Just feel how you feel about it and move on.

post #1743 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ambler View Post

The fan community has far too much Star Wars baggage (both positive and negative) to be taken seriously.  The ridiculous levels of hype and nostalgia boners were always going to collapse in the opposite direction, almost as a function of physics.  No version of TFA was ever going to withstand these levels of scrutiny.  Just feel how you feel about it and move on.

Yup. I wish for new iconography in a sequel trilogy, but then we would have had the "it doesn't feel like OT" brigade instead of guys like me wishing there was more new!

I wish I could wish that all away, but I can't.
post #1744 of 9091

Are these Star War movies, and also the Marvel movies, made to make money and cash in on Fanboy's nostalgia? Sure!

 

But in both cases, the actual people making them are Fans themselves. JJ VETS people he contemplates working with by whether they are Star Wars or Trek fans. Getting to direct TFA was a life long dream for him. And for my money, he did a good job under trying circumstances. 

 

I'd argue that both TFA and R1 were made with a certain self awareness that isn't 100% pandering to fans...but actually using that Fan service to make their own points.

 

I mean, TFA is actually about the younger generation growing up after the events of the OT. Hell Rey grows up amongst the ruins of Star Destroyers and X-Wings. That iconography is one of the really great (yes GREAT!) things about the Force Awakens. 

 

I'm not crazy about Han's Rathgar Ship or StarKiller base, but both are logical extensions of the OT. And the StarKiller base itself is interesting as a theme: the First Order, like our heroes, is scrambling to recreate the past, is shaped by it. Essentially they want to "one up" the Empire and restore "order in the Galaxy". 

 

Rey is "one upping" Luke, though not conciously. There are interesting themes of young generations learning and improving on their predecessors (or trying to). 


Then with Rogue One you are more overtly playing in the OT Sandbox and can go whole hog with call backs, references etc. 

 

Neither of these movies are perfect, but they are more interesting than people give them credit for, and much more interesting than the standard Blockbuster fare we are "treated" to. 

post #1745 of 9091
On the upside, it does sound as though Johnson will be breaking with the OT imagery porn of TFA and RO.

What we've seen and heard about looks and sounds downright (*gasp*) prequel-ish.
post #1746 of 9091
How do you feel about sand?

I don't care either way myself. #SandAgnostic
post #1747 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

On the upside, it does sound as though Johnson will be breaking with the OT imagery porn of TFA and RO.

What we've seen and heard about looks and sounds downright (*gasp*) prequel-ish.

Yes please.

Not really begging for prequel iconogprahy, just something different. I really want to see this trilogy grow into its own thing, however much Disney doesn't want to.
post #1748 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

I just looked this up... http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Sifo-Dyas

So convoluted.

That backstory is just absurd, and needlessly murky.  How this strand survived into the finished story without any elaboration is one of the more baffling choices on CLONES and SITH.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

Yup. I wish for new iconography in a sequel trilogy, but then we would have had the "it doesn't feel like OT" brigade instead of guys like me wishing there was more new!
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

On the upside, it does sound as though Johnson will be breaking with the OT imagery porn of TFA and RO.

What we've seen and heard about looks and sounds downright (*gasp*) prequel-ish.

I did find it interesting that the movie which takes place in the OT timeline (ROGUE ONE) is the film with many more new ship/trooper designs than the movie taking place 30 years into a new era (THE FORCE AWAKENS).

 

I actually wish some of ROGUE ONE's designs had been saved for THE FORCE AWAKENS, because they feel very reminiscent of OT design work, but are legit new designs themselves.  Hopefully VIII will show off some new stuff.

post #1749 of 9091
Wait, so Syfo-Dias is NOT a play on Sidious but was ACTUALLY supposed to be an altogether different character named Sifo-Dyas? That's....,just STUPID..
post #1750 of 9091
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fraid uh noman View Post

Wait, so Syfo-Dias is NOT a play on Sidious but was ACTUALLY supposed to be an altogether different character named Sifo-Dyas? That's....,just STUPID..

It was supposed to Sidious in very early developments of AOTC, but Lucas changed that to an individual character. In fact, the name was even more obvious in the early stuff, Sydo-Dias.
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