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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) Pre-Release Discussion - Page 109

post #5401 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

This conversation is boring.

Let's talk about lightsaber fighting styles.

OH! OH!

I know that!
post #5402 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

God I hated Rey closing her eyes and downloading the "combat" program from the Force.

 

It wasn't originally in the film. J.J. Abrams showed Ava DuVernay a cut of the duel and she suggested he add that beat during reshoots.

post #5403 of 6401
Yeah it was the director-who didn't-direct-this-movie's fault.

I'm sure JJ had a ton of suggestions thrown his way. But he's the stroyteller. He thought it was "delightful" and did it. No one else can be blamed.
post #5404 of 6401
BARRY STOP BEING SEXIST!
post #5405 of 6401

https://metrouk2.files.wordpress.com/2016/06/star-wars-rey.gif

 

I actually like that bit. I think DuVernay should direct a Star War.

 

BTW, watch this:

 

http://www.indiewire.com/2016/10/star-wars-the-force-awakens-ava-duvernay-jj-abrams-commentary-1201738691/


Edited by Barry Woodward - 4/21/17 at 9:12am
post #5406 of 6401

So to open a can of worms...

 

Was the decision to make Rey an empowered, self-sufficient woman based on what the story needed or what society asked for?

post #5407 of 6401
Good job Barry good recovery.

Dare I say you used the form 2 lightsaber form to expertly dance around that sexism. The preferred style of count Dooku, a style specifically built for saber on saber combat, only defeated by Anakin Skywalkers skill with the blunt force all out aggressive assault of form 5, which he would of course have to heavily modify once he became Vader in the suit as he lost much of his athletic ability and had to rely entirely on the power of his robot limbs.
post #5408 of 6401
I know Rey being all Force Sensitive to everything gets people in a frenzy around here but let's not act like that isn't a set up for the Force mythology expanding upon itself within the confines of the story. Yes, it's not exactly hot shit to make your protagonist feel like he/she can do no wrong. But I'll tolerate it in one film. If Rian pulls it in 8, I'll be disapointed. She should get her ass handed to her.
post #5409 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post
 

So to open a can of worms...

 

Was the decision to make Rey an empowered, self-sufficient woman based on what the story needed or what society asked for?

 

Was the decision to make Luke the avatar of Boomers and their Gen X children based on what the story needed, or what society asked for?

post #5410 of 6401
Speaking of balance Mace Windu invented his own lightsaber form, the last of the forms and my personal favorite, where the duelist uses his opponents aggression and hatred and creates a force feed back loop to send their bad mojo back at them in combat. Sound familiar Rey?

It's ultimately a dangerous form that only Mace Windu could pull off without being corrupted by the relentless pull of the dark side on ones emotions. Mace Windu and me of course. In my head canon Jedi Freeman has a dope purple lightsaber.

It is a combat form all about maintaining some kind of balance.
post #5411 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

So to open a can of worms...

Was the decision to make Rey an empowered, self-sufficient woman based on what the story needed or what society asked for?
The answer to "was X in TFA based on what the story needed or what society asked for?" is "no."
post #5412 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

 

Was the decision to make Luke the avatar of Boomers and their Gen X children based on what the story needed, or what society asked for?

heheh society never has to ASK for a white male hero!

 

they're given to us like taken-for-granted-candy!

 

I'd suggest that Leia was something Lucas consciously did both because society asked for it, and the story needed her.

 

In terms of execution, Rey really does feel like a choice made specifically due to the social dialogue going on right now.

 

In terms of STRONG FEMALE CHARACTERS, it doesn't feel the same as Ripley in either Alien or Aliens.

post #5413 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

God I hated Rey closing her eyes and downloading the "combat" program from the Force.

It simply never would have occurred to me to read the scenes of Rey's captivity as her pulling Force training out of her hat. I read it as showing, instead of telling, that Rey had ties to Luke's failed Jedi academy, because those benighted prequels established that cutting little children off from society and weaponizing them is what the Jedi do.

If it turns out that we're being swerved, and Rey's abandonment on Planet Tunisia and the collapse of Luke's boot camp have nothing to do with each other, then yeah, that pulls the rug out from under a lot of what TFA seems to very heavily imply about this character's background. Until then, "how does Rey know how to use the Force" is the "where were the Avengers while Iron Man's house was getting blowed up" of Star Wars criticisms. We have much bigger fish to fry...


Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

This conversation is boring.

Let's talk about lightsaber fighting styles.


... like exactly when are we going to get a scene where a Jedi has to fend off multiple Sith at once. For all the bullshit Yoda fed Luke on Dagobah about how a Jedi uses the force only for defense, the only handicap matches we've seen so far have involved a lone Sith tanking aggro from multiple enemies (Darth Maul in Phantom Menace, Count Dooku in Attack of the Clones and Revenge of the Sith, and Vader in Rogue One.)

ETA: Correction, Yoda does burn through a few waves of clone troopers after Order 66 is triggered.
Edited by Reasor - 4/21/17 at 9:37am
post #5414 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

 

In terms of execution, Rey really does feel like a choice made specifically due to the social dialogue going on right now.

 

Okay, but what's wrong with that? Kennedy's made it clear she wants Star Wars to have identifiable figures and characters that everyone can see themselves in. She's consciously making Star War more female to respond to some of the previous movies' flaws. 

 

We should really be asking, instead, "does she have to be female?", maybe asking, "why can't she be female?" 

post #5415 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post

Speaking of balance Mace Windu invented his own lightsaber form, the last of the forms and my personal favorite, where the duelist uses his opponents aggression and hatred and creates a force feed back loop to send their bad mojo back at them in combat. Sound familiar Rey?

It's ultimately a dangerous form that only Mace Windu could pull off without being corrupted by the relentless pull of the dark side on ones emotions. Mace Windu and me of course. In my head canon Jedi Freeman has a dope purple lightsaber.

It is a combat form all about maintaining some kind of balance.

post #5416 of 6401
If I was writing this, Rey would be the storm trooper role and have the Jedi story stuff. More interesting than reheated Luke left overs. Finn can be something interesting and different. If Christie can be a high ranking female trooper, and the new Battlefront 2 game features a badass female special forces storm trooper leader, then there's no reason why you can't like "the first order is sexist."

They just hate aliens I guess.
post #5417 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

 

Okay, but what's wrong with that? Kennedy's made it clear she wants Star Wars to have identifiable figures and characters that everyone can see themselves in. She's consciously making Star War more female to respond to some of the previous movies' flaws. 

 

We should really be asking, instead, "does she have to be female?", maybe asking, "why can't she be female?" 

 

oh I didn't say there was anything WRONG with it.  the ideal Kennedy says she wants is a good one!

 

I just don't think Rey was particularly well done as a character beyond Ridley's performance.  Her intro was great though.  If it had continued on that path (the Nausicaa vibe), it would've been cool.

 

 

also...

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

 

We should really be asking, instead, "does she have to be female?", maybe asking, "why can't she always be a WHITE FEMALE?" 

 
post #5418 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

oh I didn't say there was anything WRONG with it.

 

I just don't think Rey was particularly well done as a character beyond Ridley's performance.  Her intro was great though.  If it had continued on that path (the Nausicaa vibe), it would've been cool.

 

Oh I wasn't saying you WERE wrong. 

 

I think Luke doesn't really work as a character beyond Hamill's performance but then what do I know? I'm a bear, etc. 

post #5419 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

heheh society never has to ASK for a white male hero!

 

they're given to us like taken-for-granted-candy!

 

I'd suggest that Leia was something Lucas consciously did both because society asked for it, and the story needed her.

 

Originally George Lucas wanted Starkiller to be the female lead of STAR WARS.

 

Check out Ralph McQuarrie's original concept art:

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/5f/5e/f2/5f5ef2125e07702879c340e750e21827.jpg 


Edited by Barry Woodward - 4/21/17 at 9:52am
post #5420 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

 

Oh I wasn't saying you WERE wrong. 

 

I think Luke doesn't really work as a character beyond Hamill's performance but then what do I know? I'm a bear, etc. 

oh I wasn't saying you were saying I was wrong in being wrong was I wrong oh god I'm wrong...

 

 

Luke works as a character in terms of being the primary narrative device to take us through the original star war, which tells its tale very well.  It depends on what you mean by 'working as a character' though.  Everyone is an archetype in the star war.  They're not RICH characters full of depth.  And yes, Hamill absolutely gives Luke an inner life.  People make fun of his whining, but that SHIT IS GREAT.

post #5421 of 6401
You're a bear?

A big sexy gay man?
post #5422 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

oh I wasn't saying you were saying I was wrong in being wrong was I wrong oh god I'm wrong...

 

 

Luke works as a character in terms of being the primary narrative device to take us through the original star war.  It depends on what you mean by 'working as a character' though.  Everyone is an archetype in the star war.  They're not RICH characters full of depth.  And yes, Hamill absolutely gives Luke an inner life.  People make fun of his whining, but that SHIT IS GREAT.

 

I've always liked Luke and always identified with Luke when watching Star Wars, so I really don't get the perception. He was a homebody who was completely enabled by his guardians even though he deep down wanted to get off that rock. I didn't leave home until I was 26 years old and by then the damage was done and I had (still have) a lot of growth to do.  So, people can relate to that. 

post #5423 of 6401
I think Rey (as currently written) is an over reaction to to any potential naysayers about a female lead in Star Wars (side note: Fuck those people). I think the intentions were pure and good, but the execution led to a set of different problems. She's a blank cypher who winds up doing what the movie needs her to do. And it's not about her needing to constantly fail, she just doesn't have any obstacles to overcome, or personal goals/wants.

Luke had a similar journey from farm boy to hero pilot, but that was his established skillset combined with subconscious use of the Force. TFA has Rey going from scavenger to ROTJ level Luke in one movie.

Furiosa from that same year was the best at everything, but that was how she was established. She still had goals of her own and obstacles to overcome. I never doubted Furiosa's abilities because she was a viable character. With Rey it became "Oh, she can do X/ Wait, how can she do X?"
Edited by mondguy - 4/21/17 at 3:01pm
post #5424 of 6401

Yeah, Hamill's performance is why Luke works as well as he does. Giving him an inner life is such a good way to put it. 

post #5425 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

Yeah, Hamill's performance is why Luke works as well as he does. Giving him an inner life is such a good way to put it. 


Enough years ago that I can't find the quote now, someone on this board mentioned that whether Hamill is a great actor or not, he's an amazing Star Wars actor. The work he does to carry the scene in Yoda's house in Empire Strikes Back was the cited example.
post #5426 of 6401
Hamill was a perfect casting for Luke because he's a geek that fully devotes himself as an actor to selling the world of star war.
post #5427 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by mondguy View Post

I think Rey (as currently written) is an over reaction to to any potential naysayers about a female lead in Star Wars (side note: Fuck those people). I think the intentions were pure and good, but the execution led to a set of different problems. She's a blank cypher who winds up doing what the movie needs her to do. And it's not about her needing to constantly fail, she just doesn't have any obstacles to overcome, or personal goals/wants.

Luke had a similar journey from farm boy to hero pilot, but that was his established skillet combined with subconscious use of the Force. TFA has Rey going from scavenger to ROTJ level Luke in one movie.

Furiosa from that same year was the best at everything, but that was how she was established. She still had goals of her own and obstacles to overcome. I never doubted Furiosa's abilities because she was a viable character. With Rey it became "Oh, she can do X/ Wait, how can she do X?"

 

Let's not act like Rey didn't have established traits. She lived on her own since she was 6 or 7. She knew a lot about mechanics, ships, how they worked, because she was using all of those scraps for payment. She had to be knowledgable about that stuff. That may have helped her understand how to pilot ships (but piloting ships well would be the Force sensitive/intuition). The family abandonment thing does work as an allegory for the past holding someone back from full potential that's already there. 

post #5428 of 6401
None of it is handled terribly well.
post #5429 of 6401
We've had this conversation before.
post #5430 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

Yeah, Hamill's performance is why Luke works as well as he does. Giving him an inner life is such a good way to put it. 

without Hamill's performance, Luke would still 'work' as the generic audience surrogate in terms of story structure/plot mechanics for the star war hero journey...

 

but he wouldn't pop the way he does.  Particularly with the chemistry Hamill had with Fisher and Ford.

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

We've had this conversation before.

you've said this before

you've said this before

we'll say all of this again

see you in another lifetime, brother!

post #5431 of 6401

Im simply saying that someone who has lived on their own and someone who has lived at home enabled have different maturity levels. 

post #5432 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

you've said this before
And I'll say it again!
post #5433 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post


And I'll say it again!

you've said that before too!

 

3a974ea366ae0367139d8873cca84e45.gif 

 

giphy.gif

post #5434 of 6401

Also arguable that the reason Star War The First works so well is that it's one of the first (but certainly not the last) mainstream movies to lean heavily into the Joseph Campbell nonsense. 

post #5435 of 6401

it was what was necessary to get audiences onboard with the franchise

post #5436 of 6401
Before Lucas found his cheat sheet Star Wars was absolute hot garbage. It was awful prequel garbage.

Without the guidance and heavy lifting of Joey Cams there is no Star Wars.
post #5437 of 6401

HAIL MARCIA LUCAS!!!

post #5438 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

HAIL MARCIA LUCAS!!!

 

I'm still mad that Star War means we are never gonna get Karina Longworth's Marcia Lucas novel.

 

Thanks, star war. 

post #5439 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post

Let's not act like Rey didn't have established traits. She lived on her own since she was 6 or 7. She knew a lot about mechanics, ships, how they worked, because she was using all of those scraps for payment. She had to be knowledgable about that stuff. That may have helped her understand how to pilot ships (but piloting ships well would be the Force sensitive/intuition). The family abandonment thing does work as an allegory for the past holding someone back from full potential that's already there. 

Fair enough, but I still feel like there's gaps with her. Does she express any other desire other than wanting to stay? It's the thrust of her whole character, and doesn't really service anything beyond her being dragged along by the movie. By the time that wordless scene with Luke arrives that we're supposed to read so much into, all I could think was "Why does she have this sudden connection with Luke? What is she expecting? What does she want from him?"
post #5440 of 6401

 Y'all a bunch of Max Landises.


Edited by Barry Woodward - 4/21/17 at 10:23am
post #5441 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by mondguy View Post


Fair enough, but I still feel like there's gaps with her. Does she express any other desire other than wanting to stay? It's the thrust of her whole character, and doesn't really service anything beyond her being dragged along by the movie. By the time that wordless scene with Luke arrives that we're supposed to read so much into, all I could think was "Why does she have this sudden connection with Luke? What is she expecting? What does she want from him?"

 

She wants a future. I think Rey is just lost, she's powerful but feels powerless to her circumstances. I also think it's hard thing for someone to accept that they were dumped and not wanted, and it's easier for her to believe that they were coming back for her. It's a self-love issue, but of course the movie isn't going to play up that drama to the 9th degree. It is STAR WARS after all. 

post #5442 of 6401

Luke works well in Star Wars because he's surrounded by much more competent and experienced figures. It's established in Ben's hut, well before the trench run that Luke is a great pilot - and so we know that about him. He can also handle himself in a shootout, not a major leap for the audience, you just point and shoot and duck - that's been well established since the invention of the western. Luke's only big moment is channelling the force at the climax, but the movie has been building up to that very moment from the start, so when it comes its earnt.

 

We get none of that with Rey - we learn she's a pilot but only seconds before she's piloting the Falcon. We find out she thinks the force isn't real - then 20 minutes later she's using mind control - she's never seen it done before but the script says she needs to use it. She wins a mind fuck competition with Kylo and later she batters him with a lightsaber she's just picked up for the first time. There's zero growth in any of that. She simply reacts to the script and wins every time. The only bit I kind of got on board with was when she was sneaking around and hiding inside the walls of SKB as it was shown at the beginning she knows how to crawl around and access panels inside a Star Destroyer.

 

She's confident and self-sufficient and empowered and blah blah blah - but she's never allowed to fail. And thats just boring.

post #5443 of 6401

Why not just call her a Mary Sue and complete the bingo card? 

post #5444 of 6401
Lack of compelling conflict for our main character is the death of drama.

If she was a defecting competent special forces storm trooper that conflict is built into every aspect of everything about her!
post #5445 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

Why not just call her a Mary Sue and complete the bingo card? 

 

Because Rey being a Mary Sue goes without saying?

post #5446 of 6401
Because her name's Rey, silly.
post #5447 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post
 

Luke works well in Star Wars because he's surrounded by much more competent and experienced figures. It's established in Ben's hut, well before the trench run that Luke is a great pilot - and so we know that about him. He can also handle himself in a shootout, not a major leap for the audience, you just point and shoot and duck - that's been well established since the invention of the western. Luke's only big moment is channelling the force at the climax, but the movie has been building up to that very moment from the start, so when it comes its earnt.

 

We get none of that with Rey - we learn she's a pilot but only seconds before she's piloting the Falcon. We find out she thinks the force isn't real - then 20 minutes later she's using mind control - she's never seen it done before but the script says she needs to use it. She wins a mind fuck competition with Kylo and later she batters him with a lightsaber she's just picked up for the first time. There's zero growth in any of that. She simply reacts to the script and wins every time. The only bit I kind of got on board with was when she was sneaking around and hiding inside the walls of SKB as it was shown at the beginning she knows how to crawl around and access panels inside a Star Destroyer.

 

She's confident and self-sufficient and empowered and blah blah blah - but she's never allowed to fail. And thats just boring.

 

And I certainly get all of those complaints (even though there are times that this argument does not ring true - i.e. Kylo did capture her to begin with), but it's the intentional side of the story that keeps it from becoming a complete mistake for me. Her growth, however simplified down, came when she decided to force pull that saber into her hands. It was acceptance into the unknown. I like that. And I want to find out what it means for her to be this powerful in the next film. And what kind of mistakes could she run into at this stage of her evolution. 

post #5448 of 6401
Substitute Kirk going from cadet to commanding a starship by the end of the movie. Same Abrams story logic.
post #5449 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

Why not just call her a Mary Sue and complete the bingo card? 


Because I don't think the writers intentionally wrote her to be a Mary Sue - I think they were simply too heavy handed in their attempt to make an empowered female character. Characters have to fail to grow - it's what makes them interesting. I just think they were too scared to have her fail or have her ass handed to her in at least one scene.

post #5450 of 6401
Quote:
Originally Posted by mondguy View Post

Substitute Kirk going from cadet to commanding a starship by the end of the movie. Same Abrams story logic.

Hmmm very true. Go go go doesn't matter how we get there.
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