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Jason Bourne (2016) Post Release Discussion

post #1 of 122
Thread Starter 

Just got back from seeing the new Jason Bourne film. Searched for a Post Release thread through the site and google but didn't find one so I hope this is OK.

 

Short Version:

 

In my opinion, not aggressively bad like World War Z, just forgettably bad, so 2/5.

 

Long Version:

 

I think what's impressive about the series is how they basically make the same film over and over again but can get away with it because they do it so well each time. Leaving Legacy out of it, they made one trip too many to this well. I'm not saying they couldn't have made a good film out of this but this IMO is not it.

 

Basically, it's the same thing again but much worse. Things were fraying oh so slightly with Ultimatum but this just full on unravels. 

 

Same elements, outwits and beats up a group of agents in a public place (1-2), car/vehicle chase (x2), another piece of his past recalled with yet another CIA person higher up the chain than the last one and an end stage boss fight. It's just that each of these have been done before and better in one of the earlier films. Too much too close shaky cam by far. Criminal waste of Vincent Cassel (Bourne vs Desh was way better).

 

Some elements thrown in, a few Snowden mentions, an Assange (?) analog, a Mark Zuckerberg clone (complete with real -life rumour the CIA were behind the founding of Facebook ... I mean Deep Dream except it's definitely true here as opposed to just possibly true in real life).

 

Then as I was watching it, I realised what happened to Marie was going to happen to Nicky, Julia Stiles has been in these films for a while, time to trade her out I guess.

 

Anyway, I suppose the film was about 2 hours, felt like 6 which is a cardinal sin in an action film.

 

Only new thing out of this is that turns out Bourne volunteered for Treadstone because he thought terrorists killed his father but in fact it was the agency because his father founded Treadstone but was going to blow the whistle on it when he learned they were going to recruit his son. So it's OK as long as it's other people doing the wetwork, is it? That video which Matt Damon has done (the whole series minus Legacy in 90 seconds actually cuts painfully close to home about how they keep recycling the same film over and over again - at least they did it with style before).

 

Recommend: Watch at home. Actually, you might as well watch Supremacy at home right now instead. Or Ultimatum but I think Supremacy did it better if you had to pick one. Infinitely skippable actually.

 

Wish they'd write a whole different script in future without all the exact same pieces locked together like a jigsaw yet again. They were getting away with carbon copies up to now but it finally produced a copy that is way too thin.

post #2 of 122

Any mentions of Marie or Aaron Cross?

post #3 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
 

Any mentions of Marie or Aaron Cross?

 

Yes for the first (flashback clip I think - it's already fading fast and I hope I'm not mixing it up with the Bourne in 90 seconds catch up video narrated by Matt Damon), no for the second *but* Operation Outcome is a folder on a screen of stolen files along with all the other nefarious operations the CIA are up to (Legacy definitely isn't mentioned in the Bourne in 90 seconds video).

 

 

Where do we send the cheque to?

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dent6084 View Post
 

Putting ten bucks on

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
Julia Stiles getting the "Paddy Considine in Bourne Ultimatum/Franka Potente in Bourne Supremacy" opening action sequence death.

 

I mean, it could not happen, but based on that trailer, I'm willing to predict that's how the film opens.

post #4 of 122

SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE

 

 

So a question about the final scene... I was under the impression throughout the movie that Heather Lee was actually and sincerely trying to help Bourne. So what was the deal with Bourne revealing that he'd listened in on her conversation in the car in the end where she talks to the director about bringing Bourne back into the fold -- or getting rid of him if they couldn't? It was my impression that she was somewhat bullshitting the director in order to move up in the ranks and having a better shot at helping Bourne and changing the CIA from the inside. But that very last scene plays out as if she was 100% sincere in that car conversation and Bourne having listened in and recorded it was some big comeuppance -- especially with the way the Moby theme kicked in for that final "Yeah, you go Bourne!" moment.

 

To me, it felt more like Bourne listening in on a conversation and not understanding the political game Heather Lee was playing, so he got the impression that she was just another Robert Dewey when that wasn't at all the case. So basically a dumb moment for Bourne and kind of a weird scene to end on.

post #5 of 122

SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shan View Post

 

 

Only new thing out of this is that turns out Bourne volunteered for Treadstone because he thought terrorists killed his father but in fact it was the agency because his father founded Treadstone but was going to blow the whistle on it when he learned they were going to recruit his son.

Waitaminnit. Bourne volunteers for Treadstone because terrorists killed his dad. Terrorists didn't kill his dad, the CIA did because he was going to whistleblow Treadstone because Bourne was joining it? But he was only joining because his dad died? But his dad died because his son was joining buthissonwasjoiningbecausehisdaddiedbutpeanutbutterdoghorseicecream*headsplode*

post #6 of 122
This all sounds like very lazy storytelling. I expect better from Damon and Greengrass. At least I'll always have the original trilogy.
post #7 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post

Waitaminnit. Bourne volunteers for Treadstone because terrorists killed his dad. Terrorists didn't kill his dad, the CIA did because he was going to whistleblow Treadstone because Bourne was joining it? But he was only joining because his dad died? But his dad died because his son was joining buthissonwasjoiningbecausehisdaddiedbutpeanutbutterdoghorseicecream*headsplode*

post #8 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by chrknudsen View Post
 

SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE SPOILER SPACE

 

 

So a question about the final scene... I was under the impression throughout the movie that Heather Lee was actually and sincerely trying to help Bourne. So what was the deal with Bourne revealing that he'd listened in on her conversation in the car in the end where she talks to the director about bringing Bourne back into the fold -- or getting rid of him if they couldn't? It was my impression that she was somewhat bullshitting the director in order to move up in the ranks and having a better shot at helping Bourne and changing the CIA from the inside. But that very last scene plays out as if she was 100% sincere in that car conversation and Bourne having listened in and recorded it was some big comeuppance -- especially with the way the Moby theme kicked in for that final "Yeah, you go Bourne!" moment.

 

To me, it felt more like Bourne listening in on a conversation and not understanding the political game Heather Lee was playing, so he got the impression that she was just another Robert Dewey when that wasn't at all the case. So basically a dumb moment for Bourne and kind of a weird scene to end on.

 

I think the way they presented her was very incomplete, so it's really hard to get a handle on her motives. She starts off by not having any problems with helping to try and get Bourne and Nicky killed, then straight after that attempt happens in Greece, she turns on a dime to help him. It's ambiguous as a result, maybe there's the angle that she's doing all this for personal career advancement and whichever path works best for her is what she's going to take. I guess an extension of that the scene with her boss (the one she didn't shoot) at the end and why she says what she does, which is bring him in but failing that kill him. Yes, it could just be her saying what they want to hear or she could really mean it.

 

What Bourne might be doing is sending her a message that whatever she's actually up to, he's onto her being a schemer and he's watching her very closely regardless of what her game is. After all, in spite of already knowing this, he agrees to meet her and say he'll think about it. This sounds like one of those things that will be explained in the 'next film'. Hopefully, it won't be like this film where they explained things that didn't need or want an explanation. Just learning he volunteered was enough, surely? (and an interesting slant on everyone who does this sort of thing having a grand plan or motive - of course, that's no longer valid).

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post
 

Waitaminnit. Bourne volunteers for Treadstone because terrorists killed his dad. Terrorists didn't kill his dad, the CIA did because he was going to whistleblow Treadstone because Bourne was joining it? But he was only joining because his dad died? But his dad died because his son was joining buthissonwasjoiningbecausehisdaddiedbutpeanutbutterdoghorseicecream*headsplode*

 

Let me help you break that neural feedback loop before your head does the Scanners thing, I *think* they were just scouting David Webb/Jason Bourne and hadn't approached him yet and his father Webb Snr. got wind of it. Mind you, it's faded so fast, I'm already getting very fuzzy on the details.

post #9 of 122
Thread Starter 

Ouch.

 

"'A Shambling Corpse of Its Former Self': What Critics Are Saying About Jason Bourne"

 

http://themuse.jezebel.com/a-shambling-corpse-of-its-former-self-what-critics-ar-1784539755

post #10 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shan View Post
 

Ouch.

 

"'A Shambling Corpse of Its Former Self': What Critics Are Saying About Jason Bourne"

 

http://themuse.jezebel.com/a-shambling-corpse-of-its-former-self-what-critics-ar-1784539755

 

AW YEA!  TIMELESS SITH!

 

Quote:
 

Daily Herald

So, this is how an action movie franchise dies.

To thunderous flaws

 

 

Interesting that the reviews harp on the handheld aesthetic of the movie as if this is surprising.  But it makes sense that the claws come out a bit when the movie's very existence feels so completely unnecessary after concluding so nicely with ULTIMATUM.  

post #11 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

 

AW YEA!  TIMELESS SITH!

 

 

 

Interesting that the reviews harp on the handheld aesthetic of the movie as if this is surprising.  But it makes sense that the claws come out a bit when the movie's very existence feels so completely unnecessary after concluding so nicely with ULTIMATUM.  

 

I really did not like the visuals in this one. 

 

What I really wish they'd go back to.

 

Step One:

 

Step Back

 

Step Two:

 

Keep the camera steady.

 

Whoever thought this whole shakycam thing is something anyone ever wanted? It's horrible! I found this film a particularly egregious example of that and I did not like it at all.

post #12 of 122

Did you ever like it in Supremacy and Ultimatum?  Or United 93?

 

I haven't seen the new film yet.

post #13 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

Did you ever like it in Supremacy and Ultimatum?  Or United 93?

 

I haven't seen the new film yet.

 

I would have preferred they didn't do it but I don't remember either of them being as bad as this in that department.

 

Also, Supremacy had emotional character moments at the end like this which were very good.

 

 

... and Ultimatum like this with Paz at the start of this clip.

 

 

... which made up for it. It showed there was a point to it all that these films were building up to.

 

This film didn't have one of those scenes nor did I think it led to anything. It was completely disposable.

 

As in, you could replace it with an old school black and white title card saying everything you needed to know about what happened (like two lines) at the start of the next film, which hopefully does something different next time.

post #14 of 122
Thread Starter 

Actually, you know what? I could do that myself right now for what they should call The Bourne Redundancy *this* time.

 

Opening frame after the opening title and name of the next film.

 

 

OK, I do admit that took slightly more than two lines. Movie scripting is harder than I thought.

 

Credit to:

 

Farrin N. Abbott and CopyCatFilms

 

http://www.copycatfilms.com/bloggin/silent-movie-title-card-free-download/

 

for the card template.


Edited by Shan - 7/29/16 at 8:18pm
post #15 of 122

I thought this was the worst of the Bourne films so far. And that includes Legacy.

 

The fights especially were a letdown. Bourne needs a sympathetic character he can play off too (like Marie) and that's sorely lacking here.

post #16 of 122

Full spoilers ahead:

 

I'm a diehard Greengrass/Bourne fan, so I went into it with high hopes. I want another viewing to fully digest it, but as it stands, I thought it was pretty good, not great.

 

The main takeaway is that it felt curiously underwritten. It needed a few dramatic emotional high points in there somewhere.

 

Tommy Lee managed to get a few slimey character moments eventually, but his whole assassination scheme felt pretty underbaked. It's the type of cover-up assassination a CIA director suffereing from early-onset Alzheimer's would come up with. "Aw hell, throw the girl in too! And make sure you don't hit my good side!".

 

Greengrass is still as good as ever at showing that Bourne guy going from Point A to Point B while highly motivated people clack away at keyboards and glower at screens trying to find him. Objectively, the basics of the plot seem solid, but the connective tissue is missing that was needed to make it build to something truly satisfying.

 

I thought there was going to be some kind of acknowledgement or twist on the fact that they blatantly repeated having Bourne's female buddy die at the end of the first act, but no...it just kinda happens, and Bourne moves on, slightly more motivated to get the movie going than he was before.

 

Bourne's emotional journey didn't grab me much. I didn't feel like I coherently followed him from wherever he was at the beginning, to what sounded like seriously considering rejoining the program when talking with Jones.

 

The emotional distance we the audience feel, combined with the visuals, gives the film an almost impressionistic style. After only one viewing, I can't tell if this was intentional, or just half assed filmmaking.

 

As always, I'm willing to give Greengrss the benefit of the doubt. I think I'll sit a few rows further back on the 2nd viewing, though.

post #17 of 122
Haven't seen the movie yet but....

In defense of shakey-cam--it works when it's done well. When mixed with talented performers, and good action, shakey-cam can be cool. I just watched that Jason Statham film "Safe" and that uses a lot of shakey-cam, but the action is really well-done.
post #18 of 122

wow, wish I had heeded the thread. I kinda thought all the hate was just backlash. But this movie sucked. Shaky Cam boredom, never thought the Bourne action theme could inspire narcolepsy. I would rather watch the Renner movie three times back to back than sit through this again. 

post #19 of 122

I love the first three BOURNE films.  I think they get progressively better as they go along, with ULTIMATUM being one of the premiere action films of this millennium.

 

So it was pretty disheartening when I was bored out of my mind during the first hour of this film.

 

We've seen this all before, and we've seen it done better.

 

But then, somewhere around the halfway point, when Tommy Lee Jones and Alicia Vikander started sparring, I found myself getting into it.  To the point that by the end, I thought it was a pretty decent thriller.  Just not, you know, anywhere near as good as the first three.

post #20 of 122

It just shows the limitation of the Bourne character.

 

Anyone read the Eric Van Lustbader books? They introduced an "Dark Side Bourne" type character that could be interesting if they chose to do a film version.

post #21 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Reese View Post

The main takeaway is that it felt curiously underwritten. It needed a few dramatic emotional high points in there somewhere.

That was the one worrying thing about this one, that they didn't have a real screenwriter. Greengrass and Christopher Rouse (the editor) are the credited writers.
post #22 of 122

Maybe it needed the Gilroy touch, but it's hard to say. A lot of things can happen from script to shooting to editing.

 

As much as I liked Legacy (which Gilroy directed and co-wrote with his brother), that script was flabby as hell. All those infodumps tying up the Ultimatum ending in the first act are pretty jarring. And that one ends with a perfunctory Asset chase, exactly like Jason Bourne.

post #23 of 122
I can't find where I read this (so there's a slight chance I'm making this up), but I recall an interview where Greengrass was asked how he shot GREEN ZONE without a script. Greengrass replied he'd never do something that irresponsible, the studio paid Brian Helgeland a lot of money to deliver a good screenplay so he isn't stupid enough to just throw it away.
post #24 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Reese View Post
 

Maybe it needed the Gilroy touch, but it's hard to say. A lot of things can happen from script to shooting to editing.

 

As much as I liked Legacy (which Gilroy directed and co-wrote with his brother), that script was flabby as hell. All those infodumps tying up the Ultimatum ending in the first act are pretty jarring. And that one ends with a perfunctory Asset chase, exactly like Jason Bourne.

 

It was kind of funny at the end, though where after building up Operation Outcome as being the best thing yet and LARX as some kind of super supersoldier, doesn't Rachel Weisz kill him by kicking or shoving him into a concrete pylon during a motorbike chase?

post #25 of 122
 
Quote:
 
 

Jason Bourne is a terrific action adventure movie. I thought about nothing but the movie for its entire length.non stop entertainment

 

post #26 of 122

"Even while I was checking my text messages, I was still thinking about the movie! You can't buy that kind of entertainment!"

post #27 of 122
There are some exciting scenes of characters giving other characters driving directions in this movie.
post #28 of 122
Criminal waste of Vincent Cassel. Dude's just walking everywhere. Why hire someone who can do capoiera if you aren't going to do jack shit with him?

And booo on the whole 'Jack Napier killed the Waynes' angle. Far too convenient.
post #29 of 122
There are also lots of exciting scenes of characters entering and exiting rooms.
post #30 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bradito View Post

There are also lots of exciting scenes of characters entering and exiting rooms.


When a movie contains a healthy mixture of exteriors, interiors, and interiors within interiors, how else is Greengrass supposed to show the characters transitioning between the environments? Huh, Brad??

 

Also, I thought it was funny that the line "That's Jason Bourne!?" that goofy ass dude says in the trailer got cut and replaced with "...that's him...". Greengrass must read the internet.

post #31 of 122
I liked it but it was the weakest of the 4 entries. Damon is still really good, Tommy Lee was sufficiently slimy and both car chases were good, even if Cassel was getting help in the first one.

This almost felt like a bridge movie. Just setting up Vikander (terrible American accent btw) as the big bad that Bourne takes on.

Yeah, Cassel was wasted. But the idea behind his character was a good one. They just didn't need to add in the backstory of him killing the father.
post #32 of 122
Vikander is playing a robot in this, too, right?
post #33 of 122

Close. 

post #34 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul755 View Post
. Just setting up Vikander (terrible American accent btw)

 

No way, was she really supposed to be born American in this? It sounded more like someone eastern-European that grew up in the UK...then went to Stanford...and then joined the CIA.

 

Sorta like Roonie Mara's accent in Dragon Tattoo at times, too.

post #35 of 122
"Let's try it once again, Alicia. But even more like you're just reciting the lines."
post #36 of 122

She was better than Kate Mara, I'll give her that.

post #37 of 122

Low bar though.

post #38 of 122

Maybe it helps that I haven't seen a Bourne movie since seeing Ultimatum in theaters 9 years ago (sorry Jeremy Renner), but I liked this. It probably is weaker than the other 3 Damon installments, but I still found it enjoyable. 

 

I guess I just find it weird that everyone heaped praise on Mission Impossible 5 last summer (a movie I also liked), which I don't think was substantially better than this in any meaningful way. Maybe it just has a lighter, breezier tone that makes it a more enjoyable experience, whereas the self-serious tone of Bourne can be a bit more grating. 

post #39 of 122

Yeah, this and MI: Rogue Nation were probably equal in relative quality. They both felt very much like 5th entries in a franchise, but were executed well and kept things going, while somewhat straddling the line between necessary/unnecessary.

 

I'll probably fing myself rewatching JB more in the future because of my obsession with Greengrass' style, despite it's faults.

post #40 of 122

Of course the most important question is... do they play "The Color of My Scene" at the end?

post #41 of 122

The title is "Extreme Ways". The lyric is "The colors of my sea". And yes, they do play it. :)

post #42 of 122

If I was Matt Damon, I would have "Extreme Ways" queued up and ready to go on my iPod at all times. Finish up a satisfying purchase at Whole Foods, give the cashier a sly wink, then... *strings*  *phat techno beat* *extreme ways are back again, extreme places I didn't know...*

post #43 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by COULD432 View Post

 

I guess I just find it weird that everyone heaped praise on Mission Impossible 5 last summer (a movie I also liked), which I don't think was substantially better than this in any meaningful way. Maybe it just has a lighter, breezier tone that makes it a more enjoyable experience, whereas the self-serious tone of Bourne can be a bit more grating. 

 

MI:Rogue Nation has Rebecca Ferguson. Advantage. MI5.

post #44 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle Reese View Post
 

If I was Matt Damon, I would have "Extreme Ways" queued up and ready to go on my iPod at all times. Finish up a satisfying purchase at Whole Foods, give the cashier a sly wink, then... *strings*  *phat techno beat* *extreme ways are back again, extreme places I didn't know...*

 

If he ever gets a Curb Your Enthusiasm-esque docuseries, I absolutely expect that to be the theme.

 

Quote:
 "Let's try it once again, Alicia. But even more like you're just reciting the lines."

 

Haven't seen this yet, but she was great in Ex Machina.

post #45 of 122

It was fine. I got pretty much what I expected out of it. 

 

Although the funniest part was Vincent Cassiel going out of his way to avoid Las Vegas police trying to get out of the Aria, then just straight up shanks a SWAT guy in the back of the skull and steals his truck out front. WTF?

post #46 of 122

I fell asleep.  And I wished I stayed asleep because I've never been this bored in a movie in so so long. 

post #47 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by smugbug View Post
 

I fell asleep.  And I wished I stayed asleep because I've never been this bored in a movie in so so long. 

 

This all inspired me to watch The Bourne Identity again. I forgot how good it was. It's actually got some very funny moments in it as well, which I was very pleased to be reminded of.

post #48 of 122

The series lost something when they killed off Marie. She was Bourne's last real human connection.

post #49 of 122
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post
 

The series lost something when they killed off Marie. She was Bourne's last real human connection.

 

The more that motorbike chase went on and the more that Vincent Cassel was running to get into position with a rifle, the more it dawned on me that they were totally about to do a Supremacy here.

post #50 of 122
Quote:
Originally Posted by felix View Post

The series lost something when they killed off Marie. She was Bourne's last real human connection.
I dunno, I thought he had a good non-romantic connection with Landy. And in Ultimatum they seemed to hint that he and Nikki had a thing prior to Treadstone. Potentially setting her up as the romantic interest going forward.
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