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Moderators and Moderating - URGENT  

post #1 of 72
Thread Starter 

I'm sick and tired of the PM's about moderators. I don't know who to trust in this matter but the bottom line is this:

 

This is not a place to power trip. The only people who should be banned are SPAMMERS and OBVIOUS TROLLS. Everyone else, get a thick skin and stop wasting time. I don't have the time to be here constantly and it's become very apparent that the new generation of posters have no understanding or appreciation for what built this place.

 

So in short: No Gestapo. No whining. And no stressing me out about it.

post #2 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Nunziata View Post
 

I don't know who to trust in this matter

 

You are always welcome to ask either Shaver or myself. I am always happy to take you through every decision I've made and why.

post #3 of 72
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
 

 

You are always welcome to ask either Shaver or myself.

 

I'm getting a lot of people complaining about your tactics, actually. 

 

In reality, if people don't get banned for dumb stuff it should be fine.

post #4 of 72

Hold that thought. I am at work and will follow-up.

post #5 of 72
Sent by PM, because I don't feel like turning this into an MB soap opera.
post #6 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick Nunziata View Post
 

I don't have the time to be here constantly and it's become very apparent that the new generation of posters have no understanding or appreciation for what built this place.

 

Nick, of course the bottom line is that this is your site. Your money, your time, your site. You can set the tone or guidelines however you want.

 

I do think it's worth noting that in the Film Critic Thread not only have we seen a lot of old time Chewers reappear, we've had the vast majority of people express appreciation for the overall gentler and more considered tone of posts and discussions these days. I didn't even start lurking until around 2005 or so, but from what I understand, the first 3-5 years of the boards had some (by today's standards) some pretty rough exchanges and tones.

 

I love the boards. I'm thankful they're still here, and really grateful for the costly efforts you've made (most of which I'm sure we'll never know about) to keep this place open and accessible. For whatever it's worth, I'm saying I'd rather not return to those days. Those days helped give birth to Devin, and whatever one's opinion of his film review skills, very, very few active Chewers today are expressing any kind of true longing for a return of the "Wild West" days.

 

Again, your site, your rules. Just asking you to consider the sentiments that have emerged in light of DF's fall from grace.

 

Lastly, FWIW: I think Michael Shaver and Jacknife are fantastic mods. I'm very appreciative of what they've done to help keep CHUD a good place to keep coming back to, whether it's trolls, shills, or someone who tries to force some kind of showdown with regulars and/or the mods. I don't agree with them 100% of the time, but it's in the high 80s or low 90s at least.

post #7 of 72

Well spoken and agreed on all counts. I've been lurking around here just about as long, and I think its telling that I didn't start posting until after those Wild West days. 

post #8 of 72
I've been willing to publicly question bans and threats of banning that I thought were done with a hair trigger. The responses I've received from the mods have never been anything but professional and courteous to me, whether I agreed with them or not.

Here's the thing. It's a free country, but free countries have privately owned spaces. Every time that I post here, I'm a guest at somebody else's house. If I turn out to be an obnoxious guest, there's somebody here who's responsible for showing me to the door so that the rest of the guests can continue to have fun.
post #9 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

Every time that I post here, I'm a guest at somebody else's house. If I turn out to be an obnoxious guest, there's somebody here who's responsible for showing me to the door so that the rest of the guests can continue to have fun.


Excellently put. Yep. Someone can be an obnoxious guest here without being an out and out troll.

 

 

 

....WHY IS EVERYONE SUDDENLY STARING AT ME?

post #10 of 72

Right here is the reason I've been and remain supportive of Jacknife and Michael Shaver's mod style:

 

http://www.chud.com/community/t/154262/westworld-on-hbo/650#post_4159498

 

The boards are in no way a better place for treating this kind of belligerence as the norm. Jacknife kept it cool here, much to his credit, but I don't understand why a temporary or permanent ban isn't an appropriate response. Is that kind of hostility what we want to encourage?

 

I don't have any doubts that prior to this thread, that poster would've likely had a time out. I don't think the community is well served by treating this kind of stuff as nothing out of the ordinary.

post #11 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
I'd rather not return to those days. Those days helped give birth to Devin, and whatever one's opinion of his film review skills, very, very few active Chewers today are expressing any kind of true longing for a return of the "Wild West" days.

 

There's a certain irony in holding up Devin as an example in favour of iron fist moderation.

post #12 of 72

I'm not holding him up as the model of what we want. Again, while not thinking them perfect or always agreeing, I've been really happy with Michael Shaver and Jacknife's moderating. They certainly aren't pulling the kind of bullshit Devin did, but they've also shown a desire to keep the boards from becoming too hostile.

post #13 of 72

As someone who started posting here in 2000, posted regularly until maybe 2010, and has only begun posting again with real frequency in the last couple of weeks, I can definitely see the change in tone. On one hand, the chill, casual, joking vibe is fun and makes me want to stick around. On the other, I have noticed that when certain ideas or opinions are challenged (as was recently the case in a thread where mental health issues were being discussed), there's a lack of willingness to take things seriously. It's very reminiscent of some of the actions that were taken that eventually drove off a lot of the women who used to post here. The moderation here seems more capricious, is all I'm saying. 

post #14 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

Right here is the reason I've been and remain supportive of Jacknife and Michael Shaver's mod style:

http://www.chud.com/community/t/154262/westworld-on-hbo/650#post_4159498

The boards are in no way a better place for treating this kind of belligerence as the norm. Jacknife kept it cool here, much to his credit, but I don't understand why a temporary or permanent ban isn't an appropriate response. Is that kind of hostility what we want to encourage?

I don't have any doubts that prior to this thread, that poster would've likely had a time out. I don't think the community is well served by treating this kind of stuff as nothing out of the ordinary.

I appreciate the effort and kind words. Of course, my own views and efforts to be open and honest have been met with complete and total silence or hand-waving while the grousing of randos (and people like Overlord, who I actually unbanned on my own some time ago despite believing that he's a prick) seem to actually inspire some degree of "interest".


As for the "unwillingness to take things seriously", I literally said one thing to keep that thread you, Boone Daniels, mentioned from turning into a mudslinging contest over what I felt was ultimately a poor choice of words from someone who I don't believe meant any harm. That's not being capricious. That's paying attention to what the other person is saying.
post #15 of 72
There was a situation years back that I still remember for some reason. It was about the Transformers movie and some chewer who I don't think posts anymore was interested in it and defended it by raising Animal Farm as an example of what is on the surface a silly concept, taken seriously.

Now, I don't give a shit about Transformers, but I could understand his point even if I thought he was aiming way too high for what that movie was going to end up being.

Other posters at the time didn't feel the same way, so they shredded this guy and insulted him and repeatedly misrepresented his actual words b/c to them, he wasn't worth showing a little courtesy to. If I recall, no moderator stepped in, they just let it go on.

I may not always pass my own tests, but I think I put in a valiant fucking effort to make sure shit like that doesn't happen here anymore.
post #16 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

As for the "unwillingness to take things seriously", I literally said one thing to keep that thread you, Boone Daniels, mentioned from turning into a mudslinging contest over what I felt was ultimately a poor choice of words from someone who I don't believe meant any harm. That's not being capricious. That's paying attention to what the other person is saying.

 

It felt to me like you were dismissing what was a very real concern over someone's choice of words regarding the many individuals who suffer from mental health issues - including on this board, with a thread dedicated to depression, a thread often pointed to as being one of the reasons this place is so great - as being somehow lesser or dangerous. It was a really concerning statement, and using strong language to call that out wasn't mudslinging. Especially given that individual responded to said criticism with "are you off your meds," which sort of undercuts your "he didn't mean any harm by it."
 

That was just one example. I can point to others I've observed where capriciousness or casual dismissal of contemporary concerns. 

If you want to make sure that "shit like that doesn't happen anymore," you have to sort of apply that across the board when questions about people's choice of language is raised. You can't just decide "oh, this is important to me, but this isn't," which is what it feels like right now. If you want to avoid what you're talking about, you need to look at language first and intent second. The problem here has always been that some posters are given greater leeway because whoever the mods of the moment are say "oh, that's not what they meant, it's fine." 

 

I'd like to keep posting here, albeit with less frequency than I did at my peak. But it's just something I've observed. 

post #17 of 72
By your own admission you haven't been here for a while, so I'll say that I generally expect people to work things out and try not to police language to the point where posters aren't allowed to make mistakes. My focus in that instance was, as I already said, was to quell a potential blow-up before it started. I didn't tell you not to respond, I didn't tell you not to express your issues with his statement. Since that thread in particular has been contentious, I wanted to give posters breathing room before another goddamn fight broke out.
post #18 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

By your own admission you haven't been here for a while, so I'll say that I generally expect people to work things out and try not to police language to the point where people aren't allowed to make mistakes. My focus in that instance was, as I already said, was to quell a potential blow-up before it started. I didn't tell you not to respond, I didn't tell you not to express your issues with his statement. Since that thread in particular has been contentious, I wanted to give posters breathing room before another goddamn fight broke out.

 

Okay. That's fair, and it's why, after you asked me to chill out, I tried to approach the topic with a more nuanced worldview.

 

But you were okay, again, with his response to my pointing out the problem with his choice of language/mistake as "are you off your meds?" 

Look, I'm fine letting the matter drop. 

post #19 of 72
I think it was more like it probably flew past me because I mostly do this at work and even when I'm not occupied, some things can actually escape me. I'm not the T-800.

If you were offended by it, I hope you can work it out with that chewer. Both of you are long-timers.
post #20 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

Right here is the reason I've been and remain supportive of Jacknife and Michael Shaver's mod style:

 

http://www.chud.com/community/t/154262/westworld-on-hbo/650#post_4159498

 

The boards are in no way a better place for treating this kind of belligerence as the norm. Jacknife kept it cool here, much to his credit, but I don't understand why a temporary or permanent ban isn't an appropriate response. Is that kind of hostility what we want to encourage?

 

I don't have any doubts that prior to this thread, that poster would've likely had a time out. I don't think the community is well served by treating this kind of stuff as nothing out of the ordinary.

 

While I agree that the initial comment certainly wasn't going anywhere good, I don't know if responding with "Who the fuck was even still talking about you? Take the butthurt elsewhere. I don't give a shit where." qualifies as "kept it cool."  I feel like moderators -- when moderating -- should maybe inhabit a little higher ground than those they're moderating.

post #21 of 72
I'll give that one to you, Dickson. Not even begrudgingly. I thought of other ways I could have responded, but in that moment I didn't because I saw no reason no to with him specifically.

By the by, that response *is* an example of me being dismissive. I can't honestly claim to feel guilty about that one in particular.
post #22 of 72

How I'd do things (not that I make the rules):  I don't think of it as the mods' job to prevent anyone from ever saying anything mean or offensive, or make this a Safe Space for everyone.  It's to put a stop to trolling, which only occurs when the offender is so disruptive as to derail the entire conversation.  That's relatively rare, and as long as a poster is staying generally on topic and not engaging in direct personal attacks or outright hate speech, I would use a light hand.

 

As for the post in question, Cylon could have worded it more delicately, but there was a genuine and valid question at the core - how much extra leeway do you give someone on account of having a diagnosis to "explain" their interpersonal failings?  Given the track that thread was on, that seemed a reasonable line of questioning, and one the mods should give some reign to develop.  When the way it was asked gave offense, I'd say you have two valid ways to go.  Either calmly register your ire with the manner of the post and politely ask the poster to show more regard for the issue at hand (and then go to the mods if they decline to do so), or dive into the muck and fire back with as much disregard as you feel they showed you.  Boone did a little of both, which puts the mods in an awkward place of feeling like they have to pick sides in a fight they don't necessarily want any part of.  If you keep the fight one-sided, it makes their job easier. 

 

Or just fight it out.  I don't really have a problem with that either.  We're mostly grown-ups, and can handle a few bloody noses before we call in Dalton to start ripping throats.

post #23 of 72

Schwartz gets it.

post #24 of 72
I remember that Transformers guy! In my memory, it was less about his looney opinions on the movie and more about his doggedly trolling posting style that rubbed people the wrong way.

And I think it was almost the ONLY thing he'd post about. Chris Dogg, right?
post #25 of 72

Thank you Schwartz and JacknifeJohnny. 

 

Rath: My intention was to bring up what I think is  valid question (which Schwartz phrased more eloquently then I). Your immediate response was to name call and shut down any conversation, hence my flip response. 

 

I note that you then did come up with a more reasoned response of your own. 

 

I will cop to 1) writing posts here on the fly, as I'm mostly doing so at work 2) sometimes I want to start a discussion on areas that I have qualms or questions about. To try to do the later only to get decried as "insentive" "racist" (happened in other threads) is extremely frustrating, as the whole point of a Discussion Board is discussion.

post #26 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
 

Thank you Schwartz and JacknifeJohnny. 

 

Rath: My intention was to bring up what I think is  valid question (which Schwartz phrased more eloquently then I). Your immediate response was to name call and shut down any conversation, hence my flip response. 

 

I note that you then did come up with a more reasoned response of your own. 

 

I will cop to 1) writing posts here on the fly, as I'm mostly doing so at work 2) sometimes I want to start a discussion on areas that I have qualms or questions about. To try to do the later only to get decried as "insentive" "racist" (happened in other threads) is extremely frustrating, as the whole point of a Discussion Board is discussion.

 

This is fair. I could have also been more careful with my choice of language, focusing on the words, rather than the person behind them. Or: 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b0Ti-gkJiXc

post #27 of 72
yes yes let's all hug!
post #28 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

yes yes let's all hug!

peace 

no peace

post #29 of 72

We've had the fortune of having a lot of older posters re-engage with the boards.  Let's do everything we can to keep them around.

post #30 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post
 

We've had the fortune of having a lot of older posters re-engage with the boards.  Let's do everything we can to keep them around.

 

Agreed. And let's ask them to do everything they can to make us glad for the effort. It's a two-way street.

post #31 of 72

I have apparently failed to fully embrace my reputation as the "new Faraci", so I'd like to take a moment of my time to threaten, bully and wish some incurable disease upon you all. Thank you for giving me the opportunity to live up to his example.

post #32 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

I remember that Transformers guy! In my memory, it was less about his looney opinions on the movie and more about his doggedly trolling posting style that rubbed people the wrong way.

And I think it was almost the ONLY thing he'd post about. Chris Dogg, right?

 

He sounds familiar. I don't remember him specifically, but I recall his specific post being innocuous and the reaction to it being incongruent. Maybe he had a reputation, but that was around the time when I would go weeks and months at a time not posting anything, so perhaps I missed other things he may have said. That aside, my point was more about what was previously considered a routine thing on CHUD.

post #33 of 72

I think in the end, you are right.  He was obnoxious, but I don't think he posted anything truly controversial.  

post #34 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

. . . and people like Overlord, who I actually unbanned on my own some time ago despite believing that he's a prick . . .

Love you, too.
post #35 of 72
Not troll-like behavior at all...
post #36 of 72

The "post in other places" rule does seem pretty arbitrary, if we're being honest. Since when was that a thing? 

post #37 of 72
I like that he seems to believe he's been involved in meaningful dialogue and debate this whole time. And he uses words like respectful. It's adorable.
post #38 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post

The "post in other places" rule does seem pretty arbitrary, if we're being honest. Since when was that a thing? 

Since being on MB long enough sort of teaches you to recognize certain behaviors and maybe be considerate of how other posters feel and the messages they send to you. Of course, the fact that he's still fucking posting and not banned at all will fly over the heads of certain people I'm sure. Also, the fact that he blew up my PM a week ago at one in the morning acting as if he had no idea what other posters were talking about is enough of a clue.

But no, I should just ignore multiple long time posters for the sake of one person who repeatedly side-steps the points of others. I should continue to tell them to swallow it instead of maybe firmly encouraging this one guy to actually engage with other places in the community in order to curb behaviors that others feel mark him as a troll.

He gets it. He knows what's going on and he keeps pushing it because he feels that he can. But no, I'm totally the bad guy here.
post #39 of 72

Team Jacknife.

post #40 of 72
My feelings and support for Jacknife's moderator approach are upthread.

This to me is less #TeamJacknife and more #CutThatShitOut.

Posting PMs is a banning offense, I thought.
post #41 of 72
Jesus, are all Jill Stein supporters just as fucking insufferable?
post #42 of 72
I'm going to be insufferable for a moment: How many past mods worked to uncover the real identities of trolls so that they could recognize and put a stop to repeat offenders? How many mods went so far as to sign up to Tumblr and message a person whose name and identity were co-opted by a troll to alert said person to the situation and discourage further attempts to leave false digital footprints? And speaking of PM, could it possibly be that I've done some less contentious, "invisible modding" in the far and very recent past to keep the peace between fellow chewers? I wonder.

The Ark is open. My face is melting.
post #43 of 72
Just promise you won't vote for Jill Stein.
post #44 of 72

This board is so great when it's not exploring its own asshole.

post #45 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangy View Post

This board is so great when it's not exploring its own asshole.

But we keep losing stuff in there. Important stuff!
post #46 of 72
You're right, it certainly is. Speaking of assholes, just today I was called one in so many words for making a joke about Doritos that I thought no one could possibly take seriously as an actual value judgment. Doritos.
post #47 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

You're right, it certainly is. Speaking of assholes, just today I was called one in so many words for making a joke about Doritos that I thought no one could possibly take seriously as an actual value judgment. Doritos.


And that's fucking dumb.

I've disagreed with JJ in the past but I also think he's been a darn good moderator. Nick has always been my least fav aspect of the site (yes I know he started it), so his random "HEY I SUDDENLY CARE SO WHAT I SAY GOES" routine got old several years ago.

 

Nick has spent, what, 3-5 years (or more) emerging and expecting respect in return. Sorry, no. Nick, good luck with your latest venture, but nobody here cares. This message board thrived while you vanished, so your sudden commitment is kind of a joke, just like it's been every other time.

If I'm banned after this, it's been fun!

post #48 of 72

Whoa dude.  

post #49 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangy View Post
 


And that's fucking dumb.

I've disagreed with JJ in the past but I also think he's been a darn good moderator. Nick has always been my least fav aspect of the site (yes I know he started it), so his random "HEY I SUDDENLY CARE SO WHAT I SAY GOES" routine got old several years ago.

 

Nick has spent, what, 3-5 years (or more) emerging and expecting respect in return. Sorry, no. Nick, good luck with your latest venture, but nobody here cares. This message board thrived while you vanished, so your sudden commitment is kind of a joke, just like it's been every other time.

If I'm banned after this, it's been fun!

Eh, yeah, no.  Everybody cares, actually.  Or else we wouldn't be here.

post #50 of 72
Quote:
Originally Posted by millennium1 View Post
 

Eh, yeah, no.  Everybody cares, actually.  Or else we wouldn't be here.


You speak as someone who was here. Nick wasn't. Everybody commenting in this thread did their part to keep this site going while Nick was . . . Nick-ing.

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