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post #51 of 175

Can you rename it to 2020: Not Soon Enough please?

post #52 of 175
You know what?
I give up.
Really.
This election has shown me, finally, that humanity never changes, that democracy is just the least bad system out there, and that we, as a species, are doomed to repeat our errors until we finally learn we are not alone in the universe or we go extinct.
I thought the USA was beyon falling for the same cruel jokes of politics we South Americans and countless other nations have been subjected to, but now I find comfort in that it's all the same everywhere, no matter what.
We Chileans have suffered under cataclysmic socialism, right wing dictatorship, neo liberal mediocrity and rotten populism, and the cycle continues and will continue.
It's our lot as a species.
We will never reach utopia or paradise, only tarnished periods of stability interrupted by lapses into the same errors of the past.
That's it. That's the best we can do, period.
post #53 of 175

Warren was born in 1949.  She would be 71 on Election Day 2020.  Too Old. Its time for Gen X to take the reigns.

 

Gavin Newsom

Tammy Duckworth

or Corey Booker

post #54 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoken View Post

You know what?
I give up.
Really.
This election has shown me, finally, that humanity never changes, that democracy is just the least bad system out there, and that we, as a species, are doomed to repeat our errors until we finally learn we are not alone in the universe or we go extinct.
I thought the USA was beyon falling for the same cruel jokes of politics we South Americans and countless other nations have been subjected to, but now I find comfort in that it's all the same everywhere, no matter what.
We Chileans have suffered under cataclysmic socialism, right wing dictatorship, neo liberal mediocrity and rotten populism, and the cycle continues and will continue.
It's our lot as a species.
We will never reach utopia or paradise, only tarnished periods of stability interrupted by lapses into the same errors of the past.
That's it. That's the best we can do, period.

 

I hear you brother. I thought people had learned after Bush got re-elected.Nope. Then after the Republicans took Congress in 2010, I thought their fuck ups and attitude would help get people to see how shitty a party they are. Nope. There is no reasoning with Republican voters. They are literally too stupid to see how suicidal they are. Even if Trump tanks the economy and starts a war with Iran, they still will vote Republican.  

post #55 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother View Post

There is no reasoning with Republican voters. They are literally too stupid to see how suicidal they are.
Oh hey, smug, condescending Internet progressive! We were just talking about you over in the social media thread!
post #56 of 175
Quote:
 Oh hey, smug, condescending Internet progressive! We were just talking about you over in the social media thread!

Hi, guys. It me. Gonna ramble here:

The day before the election, I was impossibly smug about what I believed regarding race, gender, equality. Here, and in other places. I picked fights, and sure, some of that might have been because I have that CHUD-centric impulse to play that card first. 

 

I still believe those things, and I'm willing to fight for them. I'm willing to debate people on stuff like trigger warnings, safe spaces, microaggressions, the internet hive mind, rape culture, any number of things that concern portions of the left. 

But there are bigger issues at stake, and I can't help but feel that my smugness, in some small way, contributed to the coarsening of the discourse. Because I couldn't be open to having a conversation with a pro-life person, or a person who believed more strongly in a definition of free speech than I did (free speech good, btw, just nuance). And because I wasn't willing to do that - both personally, or reaching out nationally, I can't help but feel I helped got us to where we are. 

 

There are bigger issues at stake. The real question here is not 2020, but 2018. Those voters that went for Trump - those are Democratic voters. Those have largely been Democratic voters for decades. We took advantage of that. We ignored that. We dismissed their real concerns because they didn't quite know what white privilege was, or they had an ingrained, internalized misogyny that had been passed down via class and culture. And I am sorry for my part in that - and I am sorry about how I have come off here. 

So I am still processing what happened, still working through what happened, but what I am committed to, now, is to be personally more open. To carry the weight others have done. To educate and inform, not smirk and cajole. To call a bigot a bigot while trying to understand the roots of that bigotry. To reach out to people who don't agree with me on everything, but who agree with me on the most important things about this country. 

I keep going back to this from Kennedy: 

"So, let us not be blind to our differences. But let us also direct attention to our common interests and to the means by which those differences can be resolved. And if we cannot end now our differences, at least we can help make the world safe for diversity. For, in the final analysis, our most basic common link is that we all inhabit this small planet. We all breathe the same air. We all cherish our children’s future. And we are all mortal."

 

So that's what I plan to do, as a start, looking forward to 2018, 2020. 

 

That said - Newsom/Duckworth 2020. ;)

post #57 of 175
Boone, how are we supposed to keep arguing with you if you go showing honest introspection and willingness to admit to your faults?
post #58 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

Boone, how are we supposed to keep arguing with you if you go showing honest introspection and willingness to admit to your faults?

 

post #59 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

Boone, how are we supposed to keep arguing with you if you go showing honest introspection and willingness to admit to your faults?

 

There's a Star War coming out. 

post #60 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post


Oh hey, smug, condescending Internet progressive! We were just talking about you over in the social media thread!

 

Fuck that noise.That attitude doesn't help either. I like you all but come on. I am not talking about usual Democratic voters that went for Trump because of economic issues. They can be won back over. I am talking about the kind of people who honestly believe Obama was a Muslim and Hillary was one day away from dying during the campaign. I have tried endlessly to get people I know like this to see logic. It doesn't work. We have seen endless videos of people like this. After every liberal defeat there is always this self hating attitude of "If only I tried harder or understood them better!" Understanding and reaching out to the other side is great like Boone wants but let's not make the mistake of thinking both sides are equally to blame. One side has openly called for the execution and/or imprisonment of their political enemies. Negotiations and understanding will not satisfy them, only concessions and getting their way completely. Those people are lost.   

post #61 of 175
So...then what? Even if they're "lost," they're still around, still able and willing to vote, and not going to be gone any time soon. You and people like you seem to think that you can just discount them entirely, and that's why everybody was so blindsided by how this election turned out. If you actually honestly reach out to them, make a best effort to persuade, and can't change their minds, that's one thing, but just going "fuck them, they'll never listen anyway" is just blaming other people for your slacking off.
post #62 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

So...then what? Even if they're "lost," they're still around, still able and willing to vote, and not going to be gone any time soon. You and people like you seem to think that you can just discount them entirely, and that's why everybody was so blindsided by how this election turned out. If you actually honestly reach out to them, make a best effort to persuade, and can't change their minds, that's one thing, but just going "fuck them, they'll never listen anyway" is just blaming other people for your slacking off.

 

I agree that you have to make the best attempt to persuade and see the alternative, but I think that you know that there are a good number of people that are completely unwilling to change their worldview.

 

To try and move the unmovable is ultimately a waste of energy and time. 

post #63 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

So...then what? Even if they're "lost," they're still around, still able and willing to vote, and not going to be gone any time soon. You and people like you seem to think that you can just discount them entirely, and that's why everybody was so blindsided by how this election turned out. If you actually honestly reach out to them, make a best effort to persuade, and can't change their minds, that's one thing, but just going "fuck them, they'll never listen anyway" is just blaming other people for your slacking off.

 

You focus on the next generation and make sure your entire voting block (and those that are possible to swing your way) vote. Slacking off? Come on man. It's called not wasting your energy. All of you are smart guys. You're been paying attention for awhile. What can you possibly say to someone who believed in FEMA death camps that would make them vote your way? What is with liberals and always blaming themselves? I will admit that this election the Dems should have focused more on the groups Michael Moore was talking about but sometimes it really is just the other side at fault guys.   

 

Edit:What VTRan said

post #64 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

So...then what? Even if they're "lost," they're still around, still able and willing to vote, and not going to be gone any time soon. You and people like you seem to think that you can just discount them entirely, and that's why everybody was so blindsided by how this election turned out. If you actually honestly reach out to them, make a best effort to persuade, and can't change their minds, that's one thing, but just going "fuck them, they'll never listen anyway" is just blaming other people for your slacking off.

 

Maybe, but there's also something really patronizing, if not disingenuous, about the implication that Kang supporters are just so darn snooty that nobody can be expected to actually think through what a Kodos vote entails.

post #65 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother View Post

What can you possibly say to someone who believed in FEMA death camps that would make them vote your way?
Well, I guess we'll never know, will we? Better to just write them off altogether and hope it doesn't bite you in the ass come election day...oh wait.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Maybe, but there's also something really patronizing, if not disingenuous, about the implication that Kang supporters are just so darn snooty that nobody can be expected to actually think through what a Kodos vote entails.
Perhaps so - but it doesn't actually change a damn thing. Whether you like the implication or not, these people are out there, and if you're not going to try to get them to vote your way, they're going to vote somebody else's way. You can object to that all you want, but them's the facts.
post #66 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post


Well, I guess we'll never know, will we?

 

We do know. The answer is NOTHING. Feel free to call me a slacker, a quitter, smug, or whatever. That is fine. I would say realist. Guys, I live in Michigan. I was raised in a rural town in the Thumb. I grew up with these people and the people who helped give the election to Trump. They are my family and some are still my friends. I do understand them. Many of them are great human beings but you are not going to change their minds when it comes to voting. They are practically Republican from the day they were conceived. I am not lying when I have said I tried to change their minds. The best you can hope for is for them to just not vote. And like I said, mobilize your base and go for the people who have a chance of swinging toward you. It would take an act of God or the country completely going to shit for these other people to vote Democrat. Although with four years of Trump, maybe we will get both of that.  


Edited by bigbrother - 11/10/16 at 1:11pm
post #67 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by bigbrother View Post
 

 

We do know. The answer is NOTHING. Feel free to call me a slacker, a quitter, smug, or whatever. That is fine. I would say realist. Guys, I live in Michigan. I was raised in a rural town in the Thumb. I grew up with these people and the people who helped give the election to Trump. They are my family and some are still my friends. I do understand them. Many of them are great human beings but you are not going to change their minds when it comes to voting. They are practically Republican from the day they were conceived. I am not lying when I have said I tried to change their minds. The best you can hope for is for them to just not vote. And like I said, mobilize your base and go for the people who have a chance of swinging toward you. It would take an act of God or the country completely going to shit for these other people to vote Democrat. Although with four years of Trump, maybe we will get both of that.  

 

All it takes if for something to 'hit home' for people to realize how retrograde Republican policies are.

 

When some conservative family is now denied medical ins. because Trump/GOP has repealed the ACA, maybe then they will accept reality. 

When mom or dad's high blood pressure is considered a 'pre-existing' condition that the insurance companies no longer are required to cover, maybe then...?

 

When the maintenance of city/county infrastructure is privatized and the prices start going up (despite the assurances that $$ would go down)...maybe then?

 

When it now costs to drive on the local 'public' freeway because the local GOP members have sold the maintenance rights to private companies and they have made them all toll roads, maybe then?

 

Parking meters, garages took in $156M — but city won’t see a cent

post #68 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post


Well, I guess we'll never know, will we? Better to just write them off altogether and hope it doesn't bite you in the ass come election day...oh wait.
Perhaps so - but it doesn't actually change a damn thing. Whether you like the implication or not, these people are out there, and if you're not going to try to get them to vote your way, they're going to vote somebody else's way. You can object to that all you want, but them's the facts.


I was talking with a lady recently that I've known since I was a little kid.  She's a staunch conservative that I thought would never vote for a liberal, until Trump came around.  I thought we had a shot at her voting for Clinton because Trump is simply a horrible human being.  Last year and this spring, her cry was "God help us if Trump is the nominee!"  Fast forward to October and we're talking politics.  She is 100% behind Trump now.  All of the shit from over the summer and fall didn't matter one bit to her.  Somehow she went from "God help us!" to drinking the Kool-Aid.  Nothing I said to her would penetrate.  All of the facts were worthless next to her constant bombardment of FOX news and her own ingrained brand of "morality".  Some people simply can't be reasoned with.

post #69 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by BorisTheCheese View Post
 

.....Some people simply can't be reasoned with.

 

it was too easy of a setup to not take advantage of it.

 

 

 

The only edit I would make is the 'fear' comment.....conservative republicans are truly a irrationally fearful bunch, although they will never admit it.

post #70 of 175
Kevin Drum on the working class and Democrats:

http://m.motherjones.com/kevin-drum/2016/11/republicans-and-white-working-class

"It's only the white working class that has abandoned the party. Working class blacks, working class Latinos, and working class Asians all seem to be perfectly happy with Democratic policies.

By any objective measure, Democratic economic policies are better for the white working class than Republican economic policies. And yet the white working class keeps moving inexorably toward the Republican Party anyway.

So is this about policies? Is it about NAFTA and the decline of unions and friendliness to Wall Street? It's hard to see how, since Republicans support these policies far more avidly than Democrats.

Is it about economic decline? Absolutely yes. Nonwhites may be in worse shape than whites, but they've generally made progress over the past few decades. White men alone have seen absolute declines. But what can Democrats do about this? Blacks and Latinos started from such a poor position that they were bound to close some of the gap with whites.

Is it about taxes? Not in any objective sense. The American working class barely pays any federal income tax at all. They're on the hook for payroll taxes, but that's about it. It's all but impossible to cut their taxes any more.

I could go on. And maybe I will eventually. But it's hard to conclude from all this that the white working class is angry about Democratic economic policies. It's mostly about racial and cultural identity—and Republicans appeal to that primarily via symbolic attacks on welfare and immigration and affirmative action and "inner city" crime. Can Democrats join them in doing that? I don't see how."

My one concern here is that populist Democrats will start to move to the right on immigration and other issues in an effort to overcorrect, which will alienate non-whites in the working class. Democrats will have a hard time because voters respond more easily to symbolism and slogans than wonkish, nuanced explanations about the economy, the net gains workers have seen, etc.
post #71 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

So...then what? Even if they're "lost," they're still around, still able and willing to vote, and not going to be gone any time soon. You and people like you seem to think that you can just discount them entirely, and that's why everybody was so blindsided by how this election turned out. If you actually honestly reach out to them, make a best effort to persuade, and can't change their minds, that's one thing, but just going "fuck them, they'll never listen anyway" is just blaming other people for your slacking off.

This is important not only for us but for them. No matter how much we don't like the other side, we're literally joined to the hip with them in this country and there is no way one or the other can be severed. We may sometimes think "they'll never do the same for us", but they're probably thinking the same thing of us too. It's a struggle, but I absolutely believe the only way to move forward is together. Writing off anyone doesn't solve problems, it only paves the path for the Donald Trumps to become president.

Remember Romney's "forget the 47 percent"?
post #72 of 175

This idea that we need to find common ground is admirable... but bullshit.

 

The reality is that 72% of this country did not vote for Drumpf. The problem is that 43% did not vote at all. Rather than bending over backwards for people that just embraced stupidity and evil, I think our time is much more well spent trying to reduce voter apathy and voter suppression. 

 

In an election as close as this one was, it's impossible not to come to the conclusion that it -was- rigged... through the Republicans' efforts at voter suppression. They wanted to artificially reduce the numbers of working-class and racial minorities that voted, and they succeeded.

 

Increased early voting, easier registration, making election day a weekend or national holiday, eliminating the electoral college... these are paths to a fair system, and my optimistic nature still tells me that the more fair the system is, the more the nation will reject Drumpf-types and all they stand for.

 

Besides doing everything we can to pressure lawmakers to make those things happen, it may also be necessary for those of us in safely blue states to do a little more than we have before. Off the top of my head, things like volunteering in nearby battleground states on weekends, organizing internet voter education and registration efforts, and otherwise engaging that 43%.

 

Pull in just 5% of the non-voters, and this election would've been a landslide.

post #73 of 175

I just encountered these few lines from the book I'm slowly reading during lunch hour. This is from an interview with Frances Kissling, the former leader of Catholics for Choice. While the theme of the chapter this is taken from is the impact and importance of words (what words we choose to describe and understand ourselves, the world, and others), this particular piece stood out as applicable to the defeat of Clinton ostensibly at the hands of members of her own tribe*:

 

Quote:
I have learned that people in the center are not going to be the big change makers. You've got to put yourself at the margins and be willing to risk in order to make change. More importantly, you have got to approach differences with the notion that there is good in the other.

 

Interestingly, I see shades of both Trump and Obama - specifically in their campaign styles - in this quote. Trump, obviously, did not approach his opponents, Republican or otherwise, with an assumption of goodness. Or at least he didn't act that way. And Obama didn't espouse something as radical as Sanders - but he, simply by being a black man reaching for the office of the President - took himself out of the margins. 

 

Clinton is the quintessential model of a politician playing it safe and gravitating towards the center whenever possible. Most of us have read articles about why this might be so - from her legal training to the decades of scorn and suspicion and bigoted analysis to her own desire for political clout and position - but for this discussion, the why doesn't matter. I'm not judging her for her instincts or learned protective behavior. 

 

I'm talking more about what's true about politics and culture - or what might be true, or is sometimes true. And specifically in terms of what the Dems do going forward. I think there are powerful lessons to be learned from Trump and Sanders here. I'm just wondering if the Dems are brave and honest enough to listen and learn.

post #74 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Farsight View Post

 

In an election as close as this one was, it's impossible not to come to the conclusion that it -was- rigged... through the Republicans' efforts at voter suppression. They wanted to artificially reduce the numbers of working-class and racial minorities that voted, and they succeeded.

 

Increased early voting, easier registration, making election day a weekend or national holiday, eliminating the electoral college... these are paths to a fair system, and my optimistic nature still tells me that the more fair the system is, the more the nation will reject Drumpf-types and all they stand for.

You can forget eliminating the electoral college, and the other points in bold won't make much of a difference (if any) on the outcome. "Easier registration"? How the fuck could you actually make it any easier for people to get out and vote? They don't care.

post #75 of 175
I know I've personally been trying to do this a little - I had a conversation on Facebook with someone ranting about protesters that turned into a discussion of the ACA, which turned into our eventual agreement that one of the bigger problems is wage stagnation. I had another conversation with a very Catholic, very pro-life person who is just devastated about the election as well. These things are small, but they helped me, and I'm going to continue to do them while we organize on a larger scale. 
post #76 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malmordo View Post
 

You can forget eliminating the electoral college, and the other points in bold won't make much of a difference (if any) on the outcome. "Easier registration"? How the fuck could you actually make it any easier for people to get out and vote? They don't care.

 

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2016/11/9/1594792/-The-surprisingly-realistic-path-to-eliminating-the-Electoral-College-by-2020

 

And you could start make it easier to register and vote by undoing the voter suppression systems that were put in place during the last four years.

 

As for the weekend/holiday voting, one way you make it easier is by not forcing some people to choose between voting and their job.

post #77 of 175

Election Day should be a federal holiday, and likely ought to take place over at least two days to give everyone the chance to vote.

 

Like the Electoral College, the reasons for voting on Tuesday come from a time when all voters were white male landowners who traveled by horseback.

post #78 of 175

Michael Moore really makes that point convincingly.  If not a federal holiday at least on the weekend.  

post #79 of 175
A lot of people work on weekends, and they're precisely the people who can't afford to take a day off without pay.
post #80 of 175

He suggested a federal holiday ideally, and in place of that weekends.  

post #81 of 175

Or have voting take place over two days, with employers required to give employees at least one of those days as a paid holiday.

post #82 of 175

An ideal solution. 

 

But I'll take getting rid of the electoral college over all of it. 

post #83 of 175

Voting over two days seems very problematic. How do you secure the first day's votes?

post #84 of 175

I dunno. I'm not saying it's the only or best solution. But we as a country ought to be doing MORE to make it as easy and painless to vote as possible.

post #85 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

Voting over two days seems very problematic. How do you secure the first day's votes?

 

Many states currently allow early voting, which takes place over WEEKS. Clearly a second day of official voting would not be a problem.

post #86 of 175
Someone needs to change the name of this thread to 2020: Not Soon Enough
post #87 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Headless Fett View Post
 

Can you rename it to 2020: Not Soon Enough please?

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tim K View Post

Someone needs to change the name of this thread to 2020: Not Soon Enough

 

I'm glad I'm not the only one.

post #88 of 175

How about 2020: Hope We Make It To Then.

post #89 of 175

Works for me.

post #90 of 175

New thread title delivers.


Edited by Headless Fett - 11/12/16 at 7:21pm
post #91 of 175
That it does.
post #92 of 175
Thread Starter 

Restored my work to original glory. 

post #93 of 175
While cackling, I bet.
post #94 of 175
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

While cackling, I bet.

post #95 of 175

You know why you people lost? You do not listen! the DMC is dying. What going on right now is the DMC death knell, because the Leftest are living in a bubble. Black live matter did not happen under a Republican. it happen under Obama.

post #96 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Hill View Post
 

You know why you people lost? You do not listen! the DMC is dying. What going on right now is the DMC death knell, because the Leftest are living in a bubble. Black live matter did not happen under a Republican. it happen under Obama.

You speak English long time or just learn soon ago?

post #97 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post



post #98 of 175
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robert Hill View Post
 

You know why you people lost? You do not listen! the DMC is dying. What going on right now is the DMC death knell, because the Leftest are living in a bubble. Black live matter did not happen under a Republican. it happen under Obama.

post #99 of 175

I can't believe I'm about to say this, but I'm not sure if I agree with that ban. He's been here for four years (though I only took notice of him in the past few days) or something like that and I feel like his only offense was being a simpleton. If you feel like it was the right thing to do, I won't challenge it, but I just wanted to give my two cents.

post #100 of 175

The last two sentences did it for me.

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