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Trumpocalypse Now - Page 796

post #39751 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

I mean, the hell of it is, this is Minnesota, a.k.a. Literally The Only State That Didn't Vote For Reagan. It's not like the Dems are even remotely in danger of losing his seat if he steps down.

 

The fact that there's been serious talk about Senator Keith Ellison, the first Muslim senator in history, indicates how blue that state is. It's gotten more purple in recent years, but still pretty blue. 

post #39752 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

"Look at how hollow and insincere the Republicans for backing Moore just to hold on to a Senate seat," we all said, yesterday. Of course Franken has to go. It's insulting that this would even be a debate.
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

I mean, the hell of it is, this is Minnesota, a.k.a. Literally The Only State That Didn't Vote For Reagan. It's not like the Dems are even remotely in danger of losing his seat if he steps down.

 

Good points.

While it very well maybe a good thing to get Franken to resign to maintain Democratic Party credibility, I'm going to go on record to say that the Bannon/Cernovich wing of the GOP will use Franken stepping down to start a fullblown dirty tricks war* to bring down as many progressive democratic politicians as they can...using any and all sketchy tactics as possible.  

 

*MSNBC Gives In To Disingenuous Right-Wing Smear, Fires Sam Seder

post #39753 of 40292

Bob Casey and Sherrod Brown both say Franken should go. 

post #39754 of 40292
I'd be overjoyed if we got Senator Ellison and no Senator Moore.
post #39755 of 40292

More Flynn:

 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/12/06/us/politics/michael-flynn-russia-sanctions-ripped-up-whistleblower.html?smid=tw-share&_r=0

 

 

When Trump said he only hired the best people, did he mean the worst people imaginable?

post #39756 of 40292

 I hope for the good of the party, that Franken resigns.

post #39757 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post

Good points.
While it very well maybe a good thing to get Franken to resign to maintain Democratic Party credibility, I'm going to go on record to say that the Bannon/Cernovich wing of the GOP will use Franken stepping down to start a fullblown dirty tricks war* to bring down as many progressive democratic politicians as they can...using any and all sketchy tactics as possible.  

*MSNBC Gives In To Disingenuous Right-Wing Smear, Fires Sam Seder

We can dispense with our stated convictions and just stick to pure game theory for a moment, if that helps settle the matter. If Franken stepping down plays into Republican hands, what would be the outcome if Democrats were to circle the wagons and protect him while accusations pile up? How would that be anything other than a colossal boon for Republicans in the long term?
post #39758 of 40292

Reasor gets it. It's craven and kind of gross to think about, but Franken stepping down is the best move morally and for the good of the party, for reasons elucidated above.

 

And hell, if it does come out that this was a James O'Keefe style smear campaign*, then whoever's the current senator at the time resigns, and Franken is reappointed. Or not! 

 

*ron howard: it won't


Edited by Boone Daniels - 12/6/17 at 11:12am
post #39759 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Iron Maiden View Post
 

I'd have to look back at the 2012 thread to see how many jabs I took at Romney for missing out on Vietnam and questioning Obama's foreign policy (the recent past seems so quaint nowadays), but Bannon thinking Roy Moore has more honor and integrity than Romney is quite the stretch:

 


 I started the day by learning about Bannon's tirade against Romney. Everything he said about Romney avoiding Vietnam and his kids not serving also applies to Trump and his children. Of course I seriously doubt that he cares or that he will be called out on it. 

post #39760 of 40292

I get being skeptical in certain situations, considering we live in a world where Republicans will literally pretend to be a sexual assault victim to attempt to hurt actual victims.  It fucking sucks how low the right can get, but, to paraphrase Michelle Obama, we need to go high in response.

 

Maybe that doesn't always win elections, but the morality claim is ours.

post #39761 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Reasor View Post

We can dispense with our stated convictions and just stick to pure game theory for a moment, if that helps settle the matter. If Franken stepping down plays into Republican hands, what would be the outcome if Democrats were to circle the wagons and protect him while accusations pile up? How would that be anything other than a colossal boon for Republicans in the long term?

 

Franken stepping down will be the ammo needed for the GOP to try and win his seat....it would show them that the Dems are weak and to the GOP, 'weakness' is a cardinal sin. 

 

Franken staying will paint the Dems as hypocrites and that will be used as ammo to win the seat.

 

Seeing as the GOP is immune to shame and hypocrisy, the Dems are fucked either way.

post #39762 of 40292
Well, if you're fucked either way, you might as well be fucked for making the right choice.
post #39763 of 40292

Now Mitch McConnell is calling for Franken's resignation....

 

 

and yet...

post #39764 of 40292

Rolling Stone on how Pizzagate fake news story was started.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/pizzagate-anatomy-of-a-fake-news-scandal-w511904

post #39765 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post
 

Now Mitch McConnell is calling for Franken's resignation....

 

 

and yet...


He gave himself his own rhetorical "out" by emphasizing the constituents.

 

Ergo, it's not hypocrisy to seat Roy Moore if his constituents choose to put him into office.  (It's hypocritical for plenty of other reasons, but still)

 

This ain't McConnell's first rodeo.

post #39766 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post
 


He gave himself his own rhetorical "out" by emphasizing the constituents.

 

Ergo, it's not hypocrisy to seat Roy Moore if his constituents choose to put him into office.  (It's hypocritical for plenty of other reasons, but still)

 

This ain't McConnell's first rodeo.

 

So, if Franken does resign and then chooses to run again and is re-elected, Mitch would be OK with that?

post #39767 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post
 

 

So, if Franken does resign and then chooses to run again and is re-elected, Mitch would be OK with that?

Don't pretend like I don't think McConnell is a piece of shit.  Also stop deluding yourself by coming up with imaginary scenarios to help you feel good about your own hypocrisy.

 

I get it, I do.  I understand the concern about the right weaponizing sexual misconduct allegations, and have stated that very thing when the Franken USO stuff first broke, but Franken's case has gone well beyond the threshold of continuing to grant the benefit of the doubt, ESPECIALLY if you at all hew to the idea that the accuser should, at the very least, be heard with an open mind if not outright believed from the jump.

 

The point being, it doesn't matter anymore whether this was timed to be a smear campaign, because the evidence points towards it being a genuine pattern of behavior, and that means we don't get to just ignore it because the truth-bullets may have been fired by the side we don't like.

 

I would also add that if completely fabricated allegations show up, there's a STRONG tendency for them to get debunked with relative quickness, and we've already seen this in action:  Some twitter bot tried to levy accusations against Senator Richard Blumenthal, and it all disappeared almost as fast as it appeared because there was nothing backing it up.


Edited by Jmacq1 - 12/6/17 at 12:05pm
post #39768 of 40292

Not to interrupt anything, but here's Trump's dentures nearly falling out during his Jerusalem speech:

 

https://twitter.com/KeepMyPowerOrg/status/938475113292419073

 

And Franken should resign.  Bernie agrees now.

 

 

 

 

Edited - because I spell like Trump.


Edited by MrBananaGrabber - 12/6/17 at 12:21pm
post #39769 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

Well, if you're fucked either way, you might as well be fucked for making the right choice.


This.

 

We are in a weird time; it's good that all this stuff is coming out, and it's good that society is finally starting to give victims the benefit of the doubt, but of course at some point some innocent person is going to be accused of something they didn't really do, because someone wants to settle a grudge or score political points or get rid of an enemy or make some money.
 

Franken's not that person, though. There are enough credible allegations against him. He should resign.

post #39770 of 40292
A Franken resignation is the Dems showing they’re not the cowards that the Incredible Melting Man and his GOP are, from my view.

I didn’t think RESIGN NOW!! at first, but he needs to. He won’t look good, but at least he did the right thing, unlike Moore.

Side note: those dentures are HIDEOUS. Does he snort meth? I know coke is the glamour drug, but I mean, meth fucks up your teeth and Hitler gave the Nazis meth.
post #39771 of 40292
Guys. Drop by the B Action Thread. Steven Seagal wrote a novel about a deep state conspiracy with a Joe Arpaio foreword.
post #39772 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBananaGrabber View Post
 

Not to interrupt anything, but here's Trump's nearly falling out during his Jerusalem speech:

 

https://twitter.com/KeepMyPowerOrg/status/938475113292419073

 

And Franken should resign.  Bernie agrees now.

hahaha, "GAW BLESH THE UNISHED SHTTAAAASHE"

Even his fake teeth want out.

post #39773 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBananaGrabber View Post
 

Not to interrupt anything, but here's Trump's nearly falling out during his Jerusalem speech:

 

https://twitter.com/KeepMyPowerOrg/status/938475113292419073

 

This made my day.  Thank you.  

 

EDIT: The entire speech is apparently a gold mine: https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_continue=1&v=axaSdfZINP0


Edited by fuzzy dunlop - 12/6/17 at 12:33pm
post #39774 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post
 

Don't pretend like I don't think McConnell is a piece of shit.  Also stop deluding yourself by coming up with imaginary scenarios to help you feel good about your own hypocrisy.

 

I get it, I do.  I understand the concern about the right weaponizing sexual misconduct allegations, and have stated that very thing when the Franken USO stuff first broke, but Franken's case has gone well beyond the threshold of continuing to grant the benefit of the doubt, ESPECIALLY if you at all hew to the idea that the accuser should, at the very least, be heard with an open mind if not outright believed from the jump.

 

The point being, it doesn't matter anymore whether this was timed to be a smear campaign, because the evidence points towards it being a genuine pattern of behavior, and that means we don't get to just ignore it because the truth-bullets may have been fired by the side we don't like.

 

I would also add that if completely fabricated allegations show up, there's a STRONG tendency for them to get debunked with relative quickness, and we've already seen this in action:  Some twitter bot tried to levy accusations against Senator Richard Blumenthal, and it all disappeared almost as fast as it appeared.

 

Lighten up Francis.....

 

I was speaking rhetorically about McConnell. Of course he's a piece of shit, that's a given.

 

 

The following is also rhetorical -

 

As far as the 'threshold for the benefit of the doubt'.....this is what does trouble me greatly especially in this day and age of accusations being thrown out right and left and being decided at the speed of light in the court of public opinion. 

Who/how/where gets to determine where this 'threshold' is?  People's lives have been completely destroyed by false accusations- The Central Park 5 case comes to mind (of which DJT himself weighed in).

Is the threshold for doubt one person, two?....some legal scholar? a tv pundit? a psychologist? random people with twitter accounts? 

 

Now, having multiple accusers come out against one individual does lend the accusations leveled an IMMENSE amount of credibility when it comes to crimes but as I and other's have pointed out, this can and is being weaponized.

Even if allegations are ultimately shown to be false, the damage that can be done against an individual could be career/life ending.

 

I can't help but come back to the adage- extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence....in this case, I would change the words 'extraordinary claims' to 'extreme accusations' and there are a good number of people out there in the world who wouldn't blink an eye when it comes to accusing someone of something nefarious if they could get ahead either financially and/or to gain notoriety.

 

Again, I am playing devils advocate here for the sake of this discussion.


Edited by VTRan - 12/6/17 at 12:43pm
post #39775 of 40292

Quote:

Originally Posted by MrBananaGrabber View Post
 

Not to interrupt anything, but here's Trump's dentures nearly falling out during his Jerusalem speech:

 

https://twitter.com/KeepMyPowerOrg/status/938475113292419073

 

And Franken should resign.  Bernie agrees now.

 

Edited - because I spell like Trump.

 

My gods....we were >< this close to seeing DJT be the most embarrassed person in the world.

post #39776 of 40292
FAKE CHEWS!
post #39777 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by VTRan View Post
 

 

Lighten up Francis.....

 

I was speaking rhetorically about McConnell. Of course he's a piece of shit, that's a given.

 

 

The following is also rhetorical -

 

As far as the 'threshold for the benefit of the doubt'.....this is what does trouble me greatly especially in this day and age of accusations being thrown out right and left and being decided at the speed of light in the court of public opinion. 

Who/how/where gets to determine where this 'threshold' is?  People's lives have been completely destroyed by false accusations- The Central Park 5 case comes to mind (of which DJT himself weighed in).

Is the threshold for doubt one person, two?....some legal scholar? a tv pundit? a psychologist? random people with twitter accounts? 

 

Now, having multiple accusers come out against one individual does lend the accusations leveled an IMMENSE amount of credibility when it comes to crimes but as I and other's have pointed out, this can and is being weaponized.

Even if allegations are ultimately shown to be false, the damage that can be done against an individual could be career/life ending.

 

I can't help but come back to the adage- extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence....in this case, I would change the words 'extraordinary claims' to 'extreme accusations' and there are a good number of people out there in the world who wouldn't blink an eye when it comes to accusing someone of something nefarious if they could get ahead either financially and/or to gain notoriety.

 

Again, I am playing devils advocate here for the sake of this discussion.


I don't think it's beyond the pale to accept "multiple accusers with corroborating evidence" as an acceptable threshold.  Or "Single accuser with strong corroborating evidence."  Or "Extremely large number of accusers with little corroborating evidence beyond each others' stories."  It's not going to be the same for every case, but if we wrap ourselves around the axle trying to split hairs, we may as well just say "fuck it, always believe the accused instead (especially if they're on "our team.")  Your argument basically seems to be "We need to protect the politicians we like from these attacks so we should be skeptical of all accusations/not judge until there's overwhelming empirical evidence of wrongdoing!"  You know, which is basically exactly what Roy Moore's supporters are doing ("He hasn't been convicted of any crime!  There's no proof he tried to rape those girls!")

 

It's also very well worth pointing out that anonymous accusers without any real evidence generally get dismissed (unless there's a lot of them), and those that are NOT anonymous open themselves to a vast array of unpleasantness up to and including death threats, doxxing, and other forms of abuse, ESPECIALLY if they're attacking a popular target.  So the idea that the political right is going to find a bunch of women willing to go through all that just to smear some guy they don't know is...a bit far-fetched.   And if the GOP were, in this hypothetical scenario, compensating them somehow (and offering some kind of "protection") to make false accusations, I'm pretty sure that shit would get discovered with a relative quickness, even beyond the evidence not adding up.

post #39778 of 40292

Franken is going to announce his retirement from the Senate tomorrow, as he should. This will also deprive Republicans of the "What about Al Franken?" excuse if Moore is elected. I wasn't buying the conspiracy theories about Franken's first accuser, but it's clear now that this was a pattern of unacceptable behavior. His position is untenable.

 

In other news, Obama continues to implicitly criticize the Trump administration without saying "Trump administration": http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/363555-obama-warns-of-complacency-notes-rise-of-hitler

 

Quote:
Obama told the forum's audience during a question and answer session that the danger at hand was "grow(ing) complacent," according to newspaper Crain's Chicago Business. "We have to tend to this garden of democracy or else things could fall apart quickly," Obama said.
"That's what happened in Germany in the 1930s which, despite the democracy of the Weimar Republic and centuries of high-level cultural and scientific achievements, Adolph Hitler rose to dominate," he continued.
post #39779 of 40292

Brit Hume: Republicans should pray that Franken refuses to resign or Moore loses the election in Alabama. Even some Fox analysts see the writing on the wall.

 

http://thehill.com/homenews/senate/363567-fox-analyst-roy-moore-becomes-gops-hood-ornament-if-he-wins

post #39780 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jmacq1 View Post
 


I don't think it's beyond the pale to accept "multiple accusers with corroborating evidence" as an acceptable threshold.  Or "Single accuser with strong corroborating evidence."  Or "Extremely large number of accusers with little corroborating evidence beyond each others' stories."  It's not going to be the same for every case, but if we wrap ourselves around the axle trying to split hairs, we may as well just say "fuck it, always believe the accused instead (especially if they're on "our team.")  Your argument basically seems to be "We need to protect the politicians we like from these attacks so we should be skeptical of all accusations/not judge until there's overwhelming empirical evidence of wrongdoing!"  You know, which is basically exactly what Roy Moore's supporters are doing ("He hasn't been convicted of any crime!  There's no proof he tried to rape those girls!")

 

It's also very well worth pointing out that anonymous accusers without any real evidence generally get dismissed (unless there's a lot of them), and those that are NOT anonymous open themselves to a vast array of unpleasantness up to and including death threats, doxxing, and other forms of abuse, ESPECIALLY if they're attacking a popular target.  So the idea that the political right is going to find a bunch of women willing to go through all that just to smear some guy they don't know is...a bit far-fetched.   And if the GOP were, in this hypothetical scenario, compensating them somehow (and offering some kind of "protection") to make false accusations, I'm pretty sure that shit would get discovered with a relative quickness, even beyond the evidence not adding up.

But aren't the  number and severity of the accusations against Franken about the same as the ones against DJT? Why does one "have to go" while the other can just call them all liars and pay/intimidate them into silence?

post #39781 of 40292

I don't think the GOP's lack of action on Trump should determine how we proceed with Franken. Certainly not if the Democrats want to have any credibility on this issue.

post #39782 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Shrinker View Post

But aren't the number and severity of the accusations against Franken about the same as the ones against DJT? Why does one "have to go" while the other can just call them all liars and pay/intimidate them into silence?
Because the one who's calling them liars and intimidating them into silence needs to go, too. Even if that isn't happening for corrupt, shitty political reasons, that doesn't change what the right thing to do is.
post #39783 of 40292

You're right, of course. I just get so tired of taking the high road and losing to those who don't give a shit about decency...

post #39784 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Shrinker View Post
 

But aren't the  number and severity of the accusations against Franken about the same as the ones against DJT? Why does one "have to go" while the other can just call them all liars and pay/intimidate them into silence?


Because one of them is the President of the United States, a multi-millionaire, and has a party and political machine that will carry water for him to advance their political agenda regardless of what is right or wrong.

 

Nobody here likely doubts the accusations against Donald Trump nor do they likely not believe that those accusations warrant his removal from office, but the hypocrisy of the Republican Party and it's voters isn't exactly an unknown phenomenon, and they currently control the legislature, which is the body that is capable of actually removing him.

post #39785 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Draco Senior View Post
 

Franken is going to announce his retirement from the Senate tomorrow, as he should. This will also deprive Republicans of the "What about Al Franken?" excuse if Moore is elected. I wasn't buying the conspiracy theories about Franken's first accuser, but it's clear now that this was a pattern of unacceptable behavior. His position is untenable.

 

In other news, Obama continues to implicitly criticize the Trump administration without saying "Trump administration": http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/363555-obama-warns-of-complacency-notes-rise-of-hitler

 

 

Obama's still probably the public individual I feel most sorry for. No-one on the fucking planet deserves to hand years of difficult achievements over to an unqualified incompetent. In this case, Obama's achievements were historically difficult, and Trump's a historically evil fuckwit. When it comes to the Republicans, Obama did everything he could to reach out to them and placate them - his reward is getting to watch them burn everything down in service of a man they know fine well is disgrace to the human race.

post #39786 of 40292

I do feel sorry for Obama. This must be painful for him to watch. I think it's going to be more difficult to totally undo his legacy than Trump seems to believe, but damage will be done regardless. It still infuriates me to think that we went from someone as forward-thinking, intelligent, and just plain reasonable as Obama to an incompetent embarrassment like Trump.

 

At the same time, I think he bears some of the blame for what happened to Democrats at the state and local level under his watch. I'll leave it to the historians to assess what he could have done differently to secure a better party-building legacy, but he clearly didn't do enough. Some of that was beyond his control, of course, but not all of it.

post #39787 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr. Shrinker View Post
 

But aren't the  number and severity of the accusations against Franken about the same as the ones against DJT? Why does one "have to go" while the other can just call them all liars and pay/intimidate them into silence?

 

1. Most important reason - it, in a small way, contributes to reducing the number of assaults/gropes etc. that will happen in future. 

 

2. Almost as important reason - it's the right thing to do.

 

3. Important, cynical reason - it does make thing strategically easier for Democrats later on if they're the ones who eject this shit. It's GOOD that Democrats feels shame; they need to be able to go into debates and campaigns knowing that they can go to town on Republican sex pests without dealing with Republican whataboutery, which, however intellectually dishonest, is very effective. For instance - Clinton couldn't, and can't, because she almost certainly actively turned a blind eye to her husband's shitty behaviour. 

post #39788 of 40292

If the moral reasons for being consistent don't sway you, yes, it's also strategic. When Democrats bring up Trump's accusers, the Republicans can't ask why Franken still has a job. It's going to look much worse for them if Moore wins the race in Alabama (which seems likely, unfortunately) and the accusations against him continue to hang over the Republican Party.

post #39789 of 40292

Just to let you know....this happened.

 

post #39790 of 40292

Going back to this....

 

 

Assuming this is a poligrip failure why, if he has so much goddamned money, wouldn't he get implants? I would think his vanity would demand it.

post #39791 of 40292

Well that Okeef thing is horrible.

 

But also, can you imagine how horrible Trump's breath must be?

 

In other news, the Trumpy Jr. questioning has been going on for SEVEN HOURS.

post #39792 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBananaGrabber View Post
 

Well that Okeef thing is horrible.

 

But also, can you imagine how horrible Trump's breath must be?

 

In other news, the Trumpy Jr. questioning has been going on for SEVEN HOURS.

 

watch for the special appearance by Mike Pence.

 

post #39793 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by MrBananaGrabber View Post

In other news, the Trumpy Jr. questioning has been going on for SEVEN HOURS.
Given how readily the dingus incriminated himself in previous instances, one can only assume that he walked in and promptly launched into a full Bond-villain monologue detailing the entire scheme from get-go to get-gone because he thinks people need to appreciate the genius of it.
post #39794 of 40292
I'm hearing that Trump Jr. gave up some good info today to the House Intelligence Committee. He admitted that he told Hope Hicks about the Trump Tower meeting. That means that, when she told Cheeto later on, she was well aware of the possible criminal activity that transpired. She's now on the hook for obstruction of justice. IF she was already interviewed by Mueller (and nobody knows for sure if that happened or not), she could be on the hook for lying.
post #39795 of 40292
Classic Fredo.
post #39796 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post

I'm hearing that Trump Jr. gave up some good info today to the House Intelligence Committee. He admitted that he told Hope Hicks about the Trump Tower meeting. That means that, when she told Cheeto later on, she was well aware of the possible criminal activity that transpired. She's now on the hook for obstruction of justice. IF she was already interviewed by Mueller (and nobody knows for sure if that happened or not), she could be on the hook for lying.

 

Here's hoping he hooks Hope Hicks.

post #39797 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bailey View Post
 

 

Here's hoping he hooks Hope Hicks.

 

Awfully amusing alliteration.

post #39798 of 40292
Quote:
Originally Posted by mondguy View Post
 

 

Awfully amusing alliteration.

 

When the family begins the inevitable infighting: Trump trumps Trump!

 

Jesus Christ it's such a stupid sounding cartoon-villain name. 

post #39799 of 40292

It belongs to someone walking around in a Frank Capra film in morning dress and a monocle, threatening to foreclose on everybody.

post #39800 of 40292

Or it belongs to Mr. Drysdale's nemesis at the bank in The Beverly Hillbillies.

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