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ROGUE ONE: A STAR WARS STORY - An Actual Post-Release Thread - Page 104

post #5151 of 5229
The "virtual filmmaking" with all those green screens and trying to align everything correctly for post must have been a headache.
post #5152 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Serpico Jones View Post

Pablo Hidalgo has mentioned more than once on twitter that AOTC was a very troubled shoot . I wonder what happened behind the scenes.

 

They were supposed to make a movie, but Lucas didn't want to, is what I hear!

post #5153 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post
They were supposed to make a movie, but Lucas didn't want to, is what I hear!

 

Pretty much. Even the BTS stuff on the discs have the actors barely concealing their frustration with Lucas's disinterest in things like emotion, humanity, and believable dialogue.

post #5154 of 5229

I would not argue with a word said against Clones in the the last couple of pages.  But it's still the most memorable of the prequels for me by a mile.  TPM is full of memories I generally hate.  RotS is just a haze of crap.  I keep thinking I never actually watched it.  But then I check it out again and do a lot of "wait, I have seen this!".  Like a Transformers movie pretty much.

Clones has some of the most disasterously bad stuff in that misbegotten trilogy, but also most of the stuff I thought was pretty fun too, weirdly enough. I can see why people came out with raves initially.  Everything from the arena onwards is pretty coherent action cinema, even if  jumping bean yoda is regrettable, among other things.

 

This is the most side-eye'd praise you'll ever hear of anything.  But it's true. Clones stuck with me better than the others.

post #5155 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post

I would not argue with a word said against Clones in the the last couple of pages.  But it's still the most memorable of the prequels for me by a mile.  TPM is full of memories I generally hate.  RotS is just a haze of crap.  I keep thinking I never actually watched it.  But then I check it out again and do a lot of "wait, I have seen this!".  Like a Transformers movie pretty much.
Clones has some of the most disasterously bad stuff in that misbegotten trilogy, but also most of the stuff I thought was pretty fun too, weirdly enough. I can see why people came out with raves initially.  Everything from the arena onwards is pretty coherent action cinema, even if  jumping bean yoda is regrettable, among other things.

This is the most side-eye'd praise you'll ever hear of anything.  But it's true. Clones stuck with me better than the others.

Attack of the Clones is the only prequel that could be salvaged into a good movie without totally scraping the whole thing. In the shit sandwich that is the prequels, having the framework of something that could have been good is about as good as it gets.

Although I wouldn't agree about that "Everything from the arena onwards" bit. Once the Jedi show up in the arena it just looks awful, the Jedi there always just look too much like they grabbed random people off the street and put them in bad costumes, a lot of them standout in this weird distracting way they shouldn't. Much of that part distracting, what with the cartoon clone troopers running around when they could have used real people. I don't even get why they did that stuff with how it was shot. Most of the framing of those battle scenes with troopers running around could have been done with rear screen project like the future stuff in Terminator...and have looked better. Doubt the way they went was any cheaper than what the low budget original Terminator movie did in the early '80s.
post #5156 of 5229
Thread Starter 

Any person who thinks ATTACK OF THE CLONES is better than REVENGE OF THE SITH is insane.

post #5157 of 5229
The Prequels are all horrific and also don't exist.
post #5158 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Shape View Post

Any person who thinks ATTACK OF THE CLONES is better than REVENGE OF THE SITH is insane.

It's better. They're all bad, but at least Attack of the Clones could have been something good, Revenge of the Sith doesn't even have that going for it. Plus Clones has that cool sound effect on Jango's space depth charges. These things might not sound like much, but when you're dealing with something as bad as the Prequels you take what you can get.
Quote:
Originally Posted by D.T. View Post

The Prequels are all horrific and also don't exist.

At least we got Genndy Tartakovsky's Star Wars: Clone Wars out of it. Those prequels are total shit, but if they weren't a thing those wouldn't exist; and Star Wars Clone Wars Vol. 1 & Vol. 2 basically play out like two of the best Star Wars movies made. Those Tarakovsky cartoons sure do pull from pop culture like the orgianl movies did in a far more interesting way than any Star Wars stuff in the past 20 years. Wouldn't have the Plinkett reviews either. So bad movies, but some good stuff came from it...studios might not have thrown money at stuff like Starship Troopers and The Fifth Element

Oh, and, and, the prequels gave us weird cross promotion
post #5159 of 5229
You know what improves the prequels?

Watching them on a ZT60.
post #5160 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by The Dark Shape View Post
 

Any person who thinks ATTACK OF THE CLONES is better than REVENGE OF THE SITH is insane.

 

Maybe it's not better.  But it frustrates me less.

post #5161 of 5229
There's nothing more frustrating than that dialogue in AOTC.
post #5162 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

There's nothing more frustrating than that dialogue in AOTC.

 

Making Sam Jackson look like a doofus in a swordfight?  Grievous's voice?  Grievous's name?  Grievous?

post #5163 of 5229
"I wish I could wish away my feelings, but I can't."

Besides, Jackson was already looking like a doofus from the start.
post #5164 of 5229

"From my point of view, the jedi are evil!"

post #5165 of 5229
“If I could wish away my feelings, I would.”

So fucking easy to rewrite AOTC.
post #5166 of 5229

VISIONARY

 

OPERA

 

post #5167 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

Making Sam Jackson look like a doofus in a swordfight?  Grievous's voice?  Grievous's name?  Grievous?

He was good when they introduced him in the cartoon.

He went from a weird horror movie feeling villain with a Capoeira like fighting style to a weird mustache twirling type villain without a mustache to twirl that also had a bad cough.
post #5168 of 5229
*Anakin admits killing women and children*

"They're like animals, and I slaughtered them like animals! I hate them!"

"To be angry is to be human."

?????????

Meanwhile Obi-Wan is doing the worst detective work ever, but thankfully everyone is a moron so he gets by.
post #5169 of 5229
Lord that cartoon was ugly. Like a bad imitation of Samurai Jack.
post #5170 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

Lord that cartoon was ugly. Like a bad imitation of Samurai Jack.

More like an imitation of Dexter's Lab.
post #5171 of 5229
Is it an imitation if it's made by Genndy himself? Cause it is.

Also, I disagree. Looks great.
post #5172 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by commodorejohn View Post

Lord that cartoon was ugly. Like a bad imitation of Samurai Jack.

It's made by the exact same person.

And it looks pretty great.
post #5173 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

More like an imitation of Dexter's Lab.

I can't even tell...is this like a joke, because these cartoons were all created by the same person?
post #5174 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by SimBOB View Post

I can't even tell...is this like a joke, because these cartoons were all created by the same person?

It's like looking at Mr. Data trying to learn the concept of sarcasm.
post #5175 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Stockslivevan View Post

It's like looking at Mr. Data trying to learn the concept of sarcasm.

Your sarcasm was so subtle as the write word I had to ask if it was sarcasm sarcastically.
post #5176 of 5229
One day you may master it like you master the ZT60.
post #5177 of 5229
I don't get, is ZT60 some kind of running CHUD joke? It's a bit too inside baseball for me whatever it means.
post #5178 of 5229

And who exactly is this Kate person of which you speak? I take it it's some former poster on this forum I just now stumbled on and have absolutely no prior experience of? You people must be very strange to assume any new poster must surely be an imposter!


Yours sincerely,

Mr Knotcate

post #5179 of 5229
Just making fun of a guy who used to go on this site by the name of Dr. Harford, who always bragged about a TV he bought. Basically he was someone I once thought was pretty cool, conversed with a lot on the Bond and Trek threads, and even defended from others, thinking he was being treated unfairly. But he turned out to be an asshole after all, so he's unwelcomed here as far as I'm concerned.
post #5180 of 5229

PaulC, just do a search for posts by Princess Kate.

 

It was the same person as Dr Harford, who, in the Dating thread, bragged about owning a "ZT60" HD TV, and how well it facilitated throatfucking his dates (no, I'm not kidding).

 

Same person later claimed to come clean about it all only to be found to be full of shit.

 

And yeah, I tend to assume new users are more than likely this person.

 

ETA: I recommend starting with this post:

 

http://www.chud.com/community/t/126056/weird-personal-habits#post_3015482

 

And here's the first mention of the ZT60:

 

http://www.chud.com/community/t/147519/recommend-me-a-solid-flat-screen-tv#post_3499485

 

And here's the throatfucking:

 

http://www.chud.com/community/t/44196/whats-the-sexiest-dirtiest-most-erotic-thing-someone-has-ever-said-to-you/50#post_3448098

post #5181 of 5229

MichaelM, you beautiful stud muffin, PaulC's post is a parody of the kind of posts Kate/Harford always does in response to accusations against a new identity. 

post #5182 of 5229

I am dumb.

 

post #5183 of 5229

Yes, I appreciate the sincerity and Kate greatest hits compilation though.

post #5184 of 5229

I did think it was a bit odd that Paul didn't know, given that he's been here for at least ten years!

post #5185 of 5229

PaulC = Kate?

post #5186 of 5229

I just assume everyone on the internet is Kate. But then... if everyone except one person on the internet is Kate, and I'm on the internet, the chances of me being that one person on the internet who isn't Kate must be statistically close to zero. So logically I have to assume that I am most likely Kate and someone else is the real person.

post #5187 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Paul C View Post
 

I just assume everyone on the internet is Kate. But then... if everyone except one person on the internet is Kate, and I'm on the internet, the chances of me being that one person on the internet who isn't Kate must be statistically close to zero. So logically I have to assume that I am most likely Kate and someone else is the real person.

 

post #5188 of 5229
Maybe Kate is the only real person.
post #5189 of 5229

Maybe destiny wasn't mean to be.

post #5190 of 5229
Not only do I consider ATTACK OF THE CLONES the WORST of the three, but I consider it the worst of the entire series (including those EWOK movies), and the nadir of franchise-driven spectacles emerging in the early aughts (LORD OF THE RINGS, SPIDER-MAN, THE MATRIX, et al). Simply put, this movie sucks.

But WHY does it suck? Is it the acting? The transition from 70mm to digital video? The fact that the entire thing is a reverse ROGER RABBIT (ie real actors inhabiting environments where nothing and no one is real)? Yes, yes, and yes. All of these things and more, YES.

For all of that, there’s one thing in particular that cripples this film -- and REVENGE OF THE SITH with it -- and it’s the stunning lack of inertia typically associated with STAR WARS. In fact, the element that makes a STAR WARS “feel like STAR WARS” is so obvious and in your face that when Prequel critics try to pinpoint exactly why these films feel wrong to them, they overlook the missing component in the story: situational Evasion and Infiltration. In other words, “running from the Bad Guys and trying to sneak into places.” Beginning with ATTACK OF THE CLONES, this essential formula is jettisoned.
Let’s take a look at the preceding installments in the series and note the plot and narrative mechanisms the four films have in common:

STAR WARS: A pair of droids are given secret Imperial plans that must reach Obi-Wan Kenobi before Vader gets his hands on them. With Stormtroopers hot on their trail, C-3P0 and R2-D2 fall in with Luke Skywalker, who, after meeting Kenobi, smuggles the group off-planet aboard the Millennium Falcon. At length they’re caught in a tractor beam and placed in mortal danger aboard the Death Star -- but upon learning that Princess Leia is scheduled for execution, our heroes mount a desperate escape plan requiring them to sneak off the ship, find their way (presumably miles away) into the detention area, rescue the Princess, and make tracks for Yavin. At length, after a series of near-misses and escapes, the group manages to find their way to the Rebel base, and then mount a final desperate attack: a handful of one-man fighters against a moon-sized space station.

THE EMPIRE STRIKES BACK: The Rebels are on the run, and currently in hiding on the remote planet Hoth. Discovered by an Imperial probe droid, they’re soon under attack by the exponentially stronger ground forces of the Empire. Defeated, the Rebels flee, but Darth Vader has his sights set on one ship in particular: the Millennium Falcon. Han, Leia, Chewbacca and 3P0 spend the entire film desperately trying to avoid a fleet of Star Destroyers while unable to escape due to a broken hyperdrive. Eventually the make their way to Cloud City to recuperate, and are there betrayed by Lando, and then imprisoned, tortured, and, in the case of Han, placed in a potentially-lethal state of suspended animation. Seeking to rescue them, Luke sneaks into the city, and finds himself face-to-face with Vader, who physically and emotionally castrates him. After attempting suicide, Luke is saved by his friends, who must again find a way to escape and evade the enemies hot on their tail. After a last-minute escape, they reconvene with the Rebel fleet, and begin planning the infiltration of Jabba’s palace, knowing it’s only a matter of time before the Empire discovers their present location…

RETURN OF THE JEDI: Luke organizes an elaborate scheme that positions himself, Leia, Lando, Chewbacca, 3P0 and R2 inside Jabba’s palace to first free Han of his carbonite coffin, and then launch an outdoor attack on the crime lord and his forces. Rejoining the Rebel fleet, our heroes organize a plan to destroy the new Death Star, and pilot a stolen shuttle directly into enemy territory in order to deactivate the energy shield at its source. Scout troopers are chased and eliminated, and the bunker is infiltrated and destroyed. Meanwhile, Luke surrenders to Vader in order to be taken directly to the Emperor aboard the space station, and after defeating Palpatine and restoring Vader to goodness, escapes just in time as Lando and the fleet arrive to fly into the Death Star core, destroy the reactor, and make it out again before the station vaporizes.

THE PHANTOM MENACE: A trade dispute places the inhabitants of Naboo under Federation lock and key. Qui-Gon and Kenobi sneak onto the planet aboard military transports, rescue the Queen, and escape the planetary blockade. They land on Tattooine and search for parts to repair their damaged ship as Darth Maul tracks and then confronts them. Escaping to Coruscant, the Queen decides to return to Naboo, unite her people with the Gungan army, and launch a three-pronged attack: a ground battle against the battle droids, a space battle against the Federation command ship, and the capture of Viceroy Gunray in the Theed palace.

Notice anything in common? Evasion and Infiltration. Our heroes are always running away or sneaking in. It’s a common adventure formula. It’s fun and exciting. We enjoy the adrenaline rush of the constant gags and execution of the setups as our Good Guys outwit the pursuant Bad Guys, and we root for them when they finally stop running and take an aggressive final stand. This, more than anything else, is the STAR WARS formula. It’s not the ships, or the Force, or lightsabers: it’s watching characters we like in daring, death-defying situations, and ultimately winning or saving the day.

So with all that in mind, what’s the plot of ATTACK OF THE CLONES?

Senator Amidala is the target of an assassin, who is hired by another assassin, who was hired by a Sith Lord. Chancellor Palpatine requests that Obi-Wan and Anakin investigate. Anakin takes Padme to hide (in broad daylight) on the least-likely planet she’d go to (her homeworld), while Obi-Wan follows a trail of clues to Kamino where he discovers the assassin (not the one who tried to kill Amidala, but the one hired by a Sith Lord to kill Amidala, who then decided to hire ANOTHER assassin to do it for him, despite his weapons and the rocket launcher on his back that would likely destroy the Senator’s entire building in three seconds); and it turns out that this assassin is being used to breed a secret clone army. Obi-Wan follows Jango Fett to Geonosis where battle droids are being made, and is then captured by Count Dooku. Meanwhile, Anakin has premonitions about his mother’s death and goes to Tatooine to find her. After killing the Tusken Raiders who were evidently butt-raping his mom,* he heads off with Padme to find Obi-Wan, fights some Harryhausen monsters in an arena, and gets his arm cut off in the opening skirmish of the fabled Clone Wars. The end.

Now, I realize there are some superficial elements that seem to fit the STAR WARS formula.** I mentioned that Obi-Wan travels to Geonosis and gets captured, for example, and also that Anakin comes to rescue him. The difference here is that while Evasion and Infiltration are plot motivators for STAR WARS, EMPIRE, JEDI, and, yes, even THE PHANTOM MENACE, they’re simply Things That Happen in ATTACK OF THE CLONES. They’re linking devices that connect bullet points arranged to cover certain requirements to get to the Clone Wars and Darth Vader. Rather than BEING the story they’re simply INSERTED into the story.

Part of what makes STAR WARS (and INDIANA JONES) so fun is wondering what’s going to happen next, and how the characters are going to get out of it. In CLONES, the set pieces feel largely shoehorned in like obligations. “It’s a STAR WARS movie, and a STAR WARS movie needs action spectacle, so we need to come up with some shit to stick in there somewhere.”

Nowhere is this more evident than in the MINORITY REPORT-derived sequence in the droid factory, which was added during post production because Lucas realized it had been too long since there’d been anything but characters standing in front of blue screens and delivering exposition in monotone. The previous movies had action sequences there were organic outgrowths of the situation (albeit somewhat forced in MENACE), and the respective story being told -- keep the droids from the Empire; escape Vader’s bloodhounds; break into Jabba’s palace and then destroy the Death Star, etc -- had rollercoasters built into them. In fact, the stories were being told ON the rollercoasters.

It’s the exact opposite in the Prequels, and becomes most evident in CLONES. To go back to the droid factory example, Lucas and editor Ben Burtt looked at the film, realized it was getting slow, and came up with a big dumb bluescreen extravaganza that looks fake, feels weightless, and can be removed without altering the story one bit. This is what separates the film so much from its predecessors. The script wasn’t written to be told on a rollercoaster, because there was no rollercoaster in mind. One can argue that every STAR WARS film should be its own thing, and that’s fine, but we’re talking about the central essence of the franchise: Whiz Bang Adventure. When you’re jamming in scenes to raise the excitement level of a movie about young Darth Vader because 1) there isn’t any on display, and 2) you forgot to try in the first place, then something’s fundamentally wrong on a conceptual level.

Take the chase through Coruscant, arguably the one sequence where the STAR WARS formula is attempted. Obi-Wan and Anakin are pursuing Padme’s attacker. We meet the assassin moments before the sequence, and she dies moments before it ends. Her natural talent -- shapeshifting -- is never exploited, thus robbing us of a really cool crowd scene where maybe she’s morphing into other people, confusing the Jedi, or something fun like that. Instead we just get a video game cut scene with actors sitting in a toy speeder. The whole purpose of the bit is for Obi-Wan to discover the dart that Jango Fett uses to kill Zam Wessel, but it’s all just exposition without stakes. Our heroes are hundreds if not thousands of feet in the air, pursuing a character we know nothing about now and learn nothing about later, all the while defying physics and gravity in what’s ultimately a disposable sequence. Its inclusion doesn’t help to tell the story because we aren’t invested in anything that’s happening yet. It’s too early in the film, and Padme’s danger is never given any stakes. She’s walking around in broad daylight, and no one seems to care very much, so why should we? It’s action out of obligation rather than used to inform character or plot.

Ironically, the most STAR WARS-y way to open the movie happens at the END of the film: the arena scene where Obi-Wan and Anakin are trying to escape the clutches of giant monsters. Given that the friendship between these two characters is never actually shown in the Prequels, this “buddy scene” could have been a terrific opener, and perhaps an easy way to unspool the Padme plot through a series of events, much the same way SITH successfully threw us into the narrative and literal action right from the get-go. But this path leads to madness and fan edits, and I avoid that dark road at all costs.

This is indisputably a result of the writing process. Lucas spent three years writing draft after draft on MENACE, and this is roughly comparable to the time he spent chiseling out the story for STAR WARS (a script which I wrote about back in the first part of this series, and lauded as being that film’s least celebrated aspect). Starting with CLONES, Lucas was, by his own admission, procrastinating, and cranking out drafts literally days before shooting began. He was giving plot points to the art department, then previewing their work and writing the film around their designs. He then contractually obligated his cast and crew to return for multiple pick-ups (ie reshoots) as he began cutting the footage and adding or subtracting in an effort to find the film in the editing suite. If you don’t believe me, the next time you watch CLONES, play a little drinking game I created called “Spot Obi-Wan’s Wig and Fake Beard.”*** Whenever Ewan McGregor’s hair goes from natural to artificial, you’re watching a pick-up. You’d be surprised how many of the “important” Obi-Wan scenes weren’t scripted or filmed the first time around. And this is the REFINED version…?

There’s an old saying that filmmakers all know you’re never supposed to say: “We’ll fix it in post.” ATTACK OF THE CLONES (and REVENGE OF THE SITH) weren’t simply “fixed” during post-production; they were, by and large, created there. It’s the most backward way of crafting a narrative, and the reason why the Prequels feel long, disjointed, and rambling. It’s just a lot of stuff happening and then strung together without any sort of art or purpose. You can remove any number of scenes without affecting the story, or move them around and still get the same effect. This is why big FX sequences like the droid factory could be inserted the way they were: the narrative wasn’t driving the action, which is the antithesis of what we consider “STAR WARS.”

* I challenge you to come up with an alternative explanation for why she was tied up and kept alive in that specific position for a month.
** For all its criticisms, note which of the two existing STAR WARS formulas THE FORCE AWAKENS elected to utilize.
*** Copyright 2017 Erik Kristopher Myers. Royalties payable to Pay Pal.
post #5191 of 5229

wut

post #5192 of 5229
You aren’t the only author of long-winded, self-indulgent posts, Bart.
post #5193 of 5229
I’m channeling my inner Avian.
post #5194 of 5229

Could have used more vagina fang talk.

post #5195 of 5229

Always.

post #5196 of 5229
*keeps reaching for the stars*
post #5197 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post
 

wut

 

It's not Star Wars if people aren't running away from bad guys or sneaking into their bases.  That tracks just fine, and it is as good an explanation as any for why the prequels don't "feel" right.  It's the thing TFA gets right, because that is a movie wholly devoted to recreating the superficial elements.  What it fails at is what is just one layer below that surface, that the heroes are bickering while running from truly imposing bad guys.  TFA has the hero running from Col. Klink while everyone tells her how pretty she is.

post #5198 of 5229

I am perplexed by Erik Meyers argument. Not that the criticisms of AotC are unwarranted, just that everything he is complaining about there is abundantly present, to an even more obnoxious degree, in TFA.

post #5199 of 5229

I gotta give Clones a point or two for something.  And that's the fact that, however much the main plot isn't really one and is a trail of silliness and irrelevance and bad dialogue handled with all the grace of a pub crawl (albeit one where no one involved probably enjoyed themselves.  A high school reunion pub crawl perhaps) - in the end the real point isn't about any of that.  It's that the republic, with all the best intentions in the world, is changing into the empire.  They're dealt a loaded hand and put in a position where they have to play it.  To not act is probable destruction, politically and kinetically.  To act is also probable destruction;  morally and civic-ly and then everything else follows.

The nefariousness that got them to this point is kind of silly, making everyone who misses it look stupid,  and its motivations seem to be more or less  "...because MuhahahaHAHAAAaaa!  That's why!".  But when you see Yoda show up commanding storm troopers it is a little bit "Whoa".

To be clear, it's not especially good, and the next film lessens the effect by making things even more honkingly obvious. But as an overall thrust of a star wars movie it's pretty interesting,  even if only old politics students are likely to think so.

post #5200 of 5229
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zhukov View Post

I am perplexed by Erik Meyers argument. Not that the criticisms of AotC are unwarranted, just that everything he is complaining about there is abundantly present, to an even more obnoxious degree, in TFA.

THE FORCE AWAKENS is all about evasion and infiltration.
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