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Wish Fulfillment And The Mary Sue - Page 3

post #101 of 560
I think the point is that if you remove Indy or Bond, there's no series or universe to speak of at all. And again, if being the central character is all it takes, then everyone's a amary Sue.
post #102 of 560
My two cents on the Mary Sue / Gary Stu thing: If the movie works, then I generally don't give a shit. TFA worked for me at the time because I didn't really notice the stitched together narrative from the other movies until specific examples were cited, so I didn't have that weighing down my ability to handwave Rey's Mary Sue-ness. It felt new to me at the time and that's what mattered in the moment. I've since moved on because Star Wars is someone else's infatuation.

Am I interested in going down the rabbit hole of Kathleen Kennedy casting her own Mary Sues? Nope, don't care, that's something that nooj can indulge himself with. I'm not above playing armchair psychiatrist, but that particular "issue" means next to nothing to me. I call out diversity issues and racist trends all the time, but there comes a point where I get bored with the minutiae and call it a night.
post #103 of 560
So despite clearly not caring, you do seem to imply to be coming down on Rey being a Mary Sue?
post #104 of 560
I watched TFA like I watch old Buster Crabbe serials so whether she is or isn't means about the same thing to me. In any event, I went to see Driver and Isaac and liked them both, but the former a bunch. I defended the movie for a bit, but it's ultimately part of a series that I am not attached to at all.
post #105 of 560

Come on, guys. His name is literally Luke S. How does George get away with that? 

post #106 of 560
Kathleen Kennedy is my new Andy Serkis conspiracy project!

I WILL indulge, johnny!!! I WILL INDULGE!!
post #107 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomTastic View Post
 

Come on, guys. His name is literally Luke S. How does George get away with that? 

 

When Luke made out with Leia he didn't say, "faster...more intensity." I can see how it slipped by people for so long.

post #108 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

When Luke made out with Leia he didn't say, "faster...more intensity." I can see how it slipped by people for so long.

with a young Rick McC looking hovering over them going

"so dense... so much going on..."
post #109 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomTastic View Post
 

Come on, guys. His name is literally Luke S. How does George get away with that? 

post #110 of 560
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomTastic View Post

Come on, guys. His name is literally Luke S. How does George get away with that? 

By doing everything better.
post #111 of 560

It was a joke.

post #112 of 560
Thread Starter 

On the wish fulfillment side of things, a lot of B Movie favorites are susceptible to particularly masculine infallibility, which is why I've never had a ton of enthusiasm for that subgenre (and even Chud darling John Wick keeps me at more of a remove than most of y'all).  Taken in particular demonstrates that you don't need the fanfic connection to get super self-indulgent in writing an idealized version of yourself.  It's just that in that case, it's a divorced dad violently exorcising all his paranoia and guilt over the distance from his kids rather than the kid working out their abandonment issues via fantasies about their fictional role models showering them with the validation and admiration they didn't get at home.

post #113 of 560
Ha, good old Taken. During the iconic phone call my wife said to me "if that's the voice he uses when he's upset, now we know why he's divorced."
post #114 of 560

TAKEN is awful in a lot of ways, and the aspect Schwartz points out is not the least of them. 

post #115 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

 

I more than half expect to see McC getting some role in the Trump administration. Dude's a champion water carrier.

post #116 of 560

Have we mentioned Stieg Larsson's Lisbeth Salander? Although I read the book The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo and saw both movie adaptations (and the Swedish sequels) and will defend David Fincher's version, I'm fully aware that she's a little too overpowered.

 

She's tough, smart, the best hacker in the world, rides a motorcycle, can handle a gun, is bisexual, and looks badass. She's so good at everything that the fact that she gets raped, twice, at the beginning of TGWTDT doesn't make a lot of sense, because the character that occupies the second half of the movie wouldn't have allowed those things to happen. And if it's meant to be a character arc, like she was going along with the system but then decides to break away from it, it doesn't quite work. 

 

Compound that with Mikael Blomkvist is basically a stand-in for Larsson and he's not only a womanizer but gets to sleep with Salander, and you get some weird fantasy stuff getting exorcised on the page and screen. 

post #117 of 560

Salander, in the film version at least, is also clearly emotionally fucked up. She is a badass, and all that you list, but Fincher, at least, doesn't present her as some idealized human. The fantasy fulfillment aspects are still there, but I never got a John Wick or 90s action hero vibe from her in the film.

 

(Tangent: I'm ambiguous on the film, but I did find its ending a huge emotional bummer. Blomkvist's abrupt abandonment of Salander may have been inevitable but I still found it heartbreaking.)

post #118 of 560

Blomkvist is a real ass, and in the book (and maybe the Swedish movie, I forget), he sleeps with everything that moves and has had an off again/on again thing with Erika for years that ruined his previous marriage. Lisbeth buying him the jacket really is her last attempt (in that story) at embracing a normal life, only to see it vanquished. Pretty sad. 

 

But yes, the fact that she is an abused outsider kind of makes up for her superhuman awesomeness. Even if her self-destructive tendencies add to her coolness.

post #119 of 560

Fincher's version softened him some, then? I never read the book or saw the original version of the film.

post #120 of 560
Hell, between the two, I'd say Blomquist is the Mary Sue.

And Taken's enstranged dad wish fulfillment is what makes it good, goddamnit! Just ask my dad.
post #121 of 560
I forget all the details, but in the book and Swedish movie Blomkvist sleeps with one of the Vanger women before Lisbeth arrives. He really gets around.

And the Swedish movie leaves out his daughter while the American one adds her back in. That does soften him a bit.
post #122 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

TAKEN is awful in a lot of ways, and the aspect Schwartz points out is not the least of them. 

 

Oh absolutely.  Beyond its paranoid  "NEVER LEAVE MY SIGHT" bullshit, It's xenophobic and tone deaf as hell.

 

Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
"Um dad...whatever happened to my friend?"
 
"..."
 
"Dad?"
 
"Goddamnit."
post #123 of 560

Also, just checking, am I allowed to like Fincher's The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo? Or is it another one to slot under my bad taste?

 

I can't keep track of the arbitrary decisions of the CHUD hivemind!

post #124 of 560

Mills also has Daredevil like hearing vision in TAKEN 2.

post #125 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post
And Taken's enstranged dad wish fulfillment is what makes it good, goddamnit! Just ask my dad.

 

I think you're joking but as a divorced father of two daughters, I found it pretty gross.

post #126 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Also, just checking, am I allowed to like Fincher's The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo? Or is it another one to slot under my bad taste?

I can't keep track of the arbitrary decisions of the CHUD hivemind!
I don't think there is a CHUD stance on that film.

I'm kinda torn about it, myself, but I'd never begrudge anyone for liking it.
post #127 of 560

Ho hum, guess I don't have to fight anyone today.

post #128 of 560

I've only seen it once, and I continue to go back and forth on it. Brighter minds than mine have debated the challenging/problematic elements, and I'm not sure where I land on them. Visually, it's obviously great. And the fact that I felt heartbroken at Lizabeth's betrayal by Blomkvist means Fincher & Co. did something right...or that I'm an easy mark.

post #129 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Ho hum, guess I don't have to fight anyone today.

It's early, you'll figure something out.
post #130 of 560
I love Fincher's direction, I love the performances.

I'm not sure they were smart to stick so closely to the book structurally. The last half-hour feels like it comes from a different movie.
post #131 of 560

It's one of those instances, like Game of Thrones, where the treatment and abuse of women is the through-line of the story. So the prevalence of rape and murder is certainly valid, but whether or not it trips over into exploitation I'm not sure. I can say that the rape of Lisbeth in the apartment lingers a bit too much in the American version in a slick music video way that I'm not sure Fincher knew how to avoid.

post #132 of 560
Wasn't the novel originally titled Men Who Hate Women, or something like that?
post #133 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Agentsands77 View Post

I love Fincher's direction, I love the performances.

I'm not sure they did any favors by sticking do closely to the book structurally. The last half-hour feels like it comes from a different movie.


Yeah, the extended Swedish version that breaks up the three books into a six-part mini-series might actually benefit here, as that part could be a whole episode of its own.

post #134 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

TAKEN is awful in a lot of ways, and the aspect Schwartz points out is not the least of them. 

Taken is unabashedly dad porn: all of the women in the guy's life are mean and spiteful and none of this would happen if only they listened to him.
post #135 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arjen Rudd View Post

Wasn't the novel originally titled Men Who Hate Women, or something like that?


It was! But there's always a question of using rape as a plot point, and whether or not showing the rape is exploitation.

 

Roger Ebert puts it much better than me in his review of The General's Daughter: http://www.rogerebert.com/reviews/the-generals-daughter-1999

post #136 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Also, just checking, am I allowed to like Fincher's The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo? Or is it another one to slot under my bad taste?

I can't keep track of the arbitrary decisions of the CHUD hivemind!

Fincher's Dragon Tattoo is totally good. The original film though...ugh.
post #137 of 560
Well, fuck, The General's Daughter is just about the trashiest rape story I can think of.
post #138 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post


Yeah, the extended Swedish version that breaks up the three books into a six-part mini-series might actually benefit here, as that part could be a whole episode of its own.
Sure.

And that was the weird thing about it. The Swedish flick already existed. Fincher should have felt free to play around with the material a bit.
post #139 of 560

He does actually in that in the novel and Swedish movie Mikael has to track Harriet all the way to Australia!

 

But yeah, Mikael's ruined reputation and Lisbeth's subsequent quest to take down Wennerström feels like a whole other movie. A leaner, meaner version of the story just has Mikael getting hired to investigate Harriet's death/disappearance without any of the fat.

post #140 of 560
I have to say that some of the lengthier interviews with Fincher about DRAGON TATTOO were a big turn-off, and it seriously put me off Fincher as a filmmaker for a few years (I'm coming back around now).
post #141 of 560

Must've missed that, what'd he say?

 

Gone Girl is the goods, so I have no doubts about Fincher's continued abilities.

post #142 of 560
I love GONE GIRL.

There was no smoking gun comment from Fincher, just a general impression that he was enjoying the perversity of DRAGON TATTOO too much. It rubbed me the wrong way.
post #143 of 560

Ah yes, he's always mixed his sex and violence to an uncomfortable degree. A certain Gone Girl scene with Neil Patrick Harris in bed springs to mind. 

 

Back on topic, Amy Dunne comes across as a bit of a Mary Sue at first. Her labyrinthian plans seem like a bit much. But then she gets swindled by a couple of hillbillies and you find out she's more book smart than street smart.

post #144 of 560
I need to watch Dragon Tattoo again. I only watched it the once. I would have gone for a trilogy of those.

I can see why he had an opportunity to do something unique with it, but he's never been the kind of director I'd think of to do change a narrative just for the sake of it. I expect he just read the book and thought 'Hey, I know how to stage that." It's why I kind of think of him as the modern director most closely relatable to Hitchcock. He knows how to use filmmaking technique to tell a story, and maximizing that storytelling potential is what gets him off.

Ooh, and Hitchcock was also squicky about sex and violence!
post #145 of 560
True story: most people are weird about sex and violence. Probably why they almost go hand in hand in movies.
post #146 of 560

I'm rereading the post release thread on TGWTDT. Not even two pages in and things get heated about the sexual politics of the film. 

 

ETA: UGH. Seeing Fabfunk's comments about the film's sexuality feels really gross.

post #147 of 560
Oh, Hitch is a total perv, and as much as I am fascinated by his art, even he puts me off sometimes (I've never been able to dig FRENZY).

It's impossible to have consistent personal standards on stuff like this. At any rate, I'm coming around on Fincher, though the Fincher films I like most don't seem to be the ones other folks rally around.
post #148 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

Also, just checking, am I allowed to like Fincher's The Girl with the Dragon Tattoo? Or is it another one to slot under my bad taste?

I can't keep track of the arbitrary decisions of the CHUD hivemind!

It's okay. Nice title sequence.
post #149 of 560
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

I'm rereading the post release thread on TGWTDT. Not even two pages in and things get heated about the sexual politics of the film. 

 

ETA: UGH. Seeing Fabfunk's comments about the film's sexuality feels really gross.

A certain Nived Fnord tore it to pieces in his BMD review, calling it a "poseur" movie.

post #150 of 560

*makes sign to ward off evil spirits*

 

Stop saying that name!

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