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The Re-up Thread - Page 9

post #401 of 971

But like, Kirk Douglas is the ultimate John Carter, right?

post #402 of 971

Worth noting, as a follow up to my earlier post, Kitsch is very good in THE NORMAL HEART, which is a dramatic role for him, but one where he gets to do something different than his "I must be tough and tortured" roles.

 

He's playing David Koresh opposite Michael Shannon in a miniseries about Waco. Want that. 

post #403 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomTastic View Post
 

But like, Kirk Douglas is the ultimate John Carter, right?

 

Oh man...Kirk circa 1955 would have been amazing.  Same for Burt Lancaster.

post #404 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post
 

20-30 years ago, Dennis Quaid would have been my John Carter.

 

I always think of him as Thomas Covenant. 

 

You know who remains my quintessential TC?

 

Charlton Heston. Specifically, late 50s - early 60s Chuck.

 

 

Donaldson is perhaps my favorite fiction writer of all time, and TC is one scenery-chewing, overheated SOB. Only Chuck Heston in his prime, he who looks great bearded or not, he who tears chunks out of the film frame and spits them out - he is Thomas Covenant, by hellfire!

post #405 of 971

I've always been intrigued by those books.  I used to stare at this edition's covers for ages when I was a kid I found them so evocative (I've always had commitment problems with books, especially thick ones).

I find the premise so off putting though:  Modern day guy bumps his head and is "transported to a land of magic and wonder".  Bleah.  There was so many stories like that in the 80s, on kid's TV in particular.  That series may well be the reason why.  I don't know.  It just always seems like non commital undercutting of the fantasy when most people do it though. Let's make the escapist subtext of fantasy fiction the text, like we don't already know it's not real.

But people seem to like them so maybe they deal with it ok, I don't know.

post #406 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by AtomTastic View Post
 

I think Kitsch is OK in John Carter, but he is constantly reminding me that Timothy Olyphant would have been so much better.

I said it in the Penny Dreadful thread years ago, but Josh Hartnett is pretty much the perfect John Carter for the script they shot with. Olyphant would've been great for a more book accurate Carter.

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
Yeah, for someone who is as 'story-minded' as Stanton coming from Pixar, I can only imagine how frustrating the source material was to work with in terms of giving it an actual narrative.

Really? In the first book he 'dies' on Mars in a desperate race against time to re-activate the oxygen generators and wakes up on Earth. He thinks he's successful, but he's not sure. That's a way cooler ending than 'Mark Strong shows up out of nowhere and sends him back because he's a dick,' and doesn't leave dangling questions like 'why didn't the Therns just kill him as soon as he got back to Earth?' and 'wouldn't the Therns also kill Dejah Thoris once he was out of the picture? It's been like 20 years now.'

post #407 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
 

I've always been intrigued by those books.  I used to stare at this edition's covers for ages when I was a kid I found them so evocative (I've always had commitment problems with books, especially thick ones).

I find the premise so off putting though:  Modern day guy bumps his head and is "transported to a land of magic and wonder".  Bleah.  There was so many stories like that in the 80s, on kid's TV in particular.  That series may well be the reason why.  I don't know.  It just always seems like non commital undercutting of the fantasy when most people do it though. Let's make the escapist subtext of fantasy fiction the text, like we don't already know it's not real.

But people seem to like them so maybe they deal with it ok, I don't know.

 

Yeah....the very basic premise may be as old as time, but I absolutely guarantee you the actual story is nothing like you expect, starting with the protagonist. He's a very human, deeply flawed individual who tests the reader's sympathy and support for a long, long time. And the question of the reality of his experiences is key to the first set of books. 

 

I love the books but can understand why they're not everyone's cuppa. 

post #408 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
 

I've always been intrigued by those books.  I used to stare at this edition's covers for ages when I was a kid I found them so evocative (I've always had commitment problems with books, especially thick ones).

I find the premise so off putting though:  Modern day guy bumps his head and is "transported to a land of magic and wonder".  Bleah.  There was so many stories like that in the 80s, on kid's TV in particular.  That series may well be the reason why.  I don't know.  It just always seems like non commital undercutting of the fantasy when most people do it though. Let's make the escapist subtext of fantasy fiction the text, like we don't already know it's not real.

But people seem to like them so maybe they deal with it ok, I don't know.

 

Yeah, that's my beef with "it was all dream!" twists/theories too.  "Ooooh, you mean to tell me your work of fiction wasn't real all along?  How will I ever reassemble my exploded head?"  

 

Just tell me a story.  It doesn't make it smarter if it's about how the story know its a story, just more convoluted.

post #409 of 971

I hate when people can't accept that something is fantastical, because "that's not realistic," so they reach for the main character to be imagining everything. 

 

Because the movie being the product of the main character's imagination is somehow better than being the product of the filmmaker's imagination?

post #410 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post
 

I've always been intrigued by those books.  I used to stare at this edition's covers for ages when I was a kid I found them so evocative (I've always had commitment problems with books, especially thick ones).

I find the premise so off putting though:  Modern day guy bumps his head and is "transported to a land of magic and wonder".  Bleah.  There was so many stories like that in the 80s, on kid's TV in particular.  That series may well be the reason why.  I don't know.  It just always seems like non commital undercutting of the fantasy when most people do it though. Let's make the escapist subtext of fantasy fiction the text, like we don't already know it's not real.

But people seem to like them so maybe they deal with it ok, I don't know.

 

Yeah, that's my beef with "it was all dream!" twists/theories too.  "Ooooh, you mean to tell me your work of fiction wasn't real all along?  How will I ever reassemble my exploded head?"  

 

Just tell me a story.  It doesn't make it smarter if it's about how the story know its a story, just more convoluted.

 

 

Again, let me reiterate: this is NOT a standard "It's all a dream!" sort of bullshit. Donaldson's the goods as a writer. He knows what the fuck he's doing. The idea of what's real, what to believe, are central to the story, not a cute framing device.

post #411 of 971

Listening to William Friedkin's autobiography, and given that I own most of his classics (or, in the case of Cruising, a film I consider fascinating and misunderstood), I think a career rewatch is in order.

post #412 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

 

Because the movie being the product of the main character's imagination is somehow better than being the product of the filmmaker's imagination?

 

Schwartzblog has ranted about it a few times over the years, but suffice to say I wholeheartedly reject that this distinction makes the product somehow more sophisticated.  

 

Not having read Donaldson's books, I'm not throwing them under this bus.  There are works (the current season of Fargo and the collected works of Christopher Nolan come to mind) that actually engage with ideas about the nature of storytelling and power of perception over reality.  But there are also times when the projection of anyother layer of fantasy, by the author or audience, adds complication but not actual depth.  

post #413 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post
Not having read Donaldson's books, I'm not throwing them under this bus.  There are works (the current season of Fargo and the collected works of Christopher Nolan come to mind) that actually engage with ideas about the nature of storytelling and power of perception over reality.  But there are also times when the projection of anyother layer of fantasy, by the author or audience, adds complication but not actual depth.  

 

Right there with you. Unless it's core to the thematics of the story, I generally dislike unnecessary framing devices or plot complexities. And though I'm a fan of fantasy novels in general, Donaldson's works are essentially the only "person from here goes there" type of stories I like, let alone endorse.

post #414 of 971

Rewatched the 2010 KARATE KID today for some reason.  I recall liking it back in 2010 but being confused as to why it was 2 hours and 20 minutes long.

 

Still, Jackie Chan makes the film for me and his dramatic scene in his beat up car still gets me welling up.  It got me wondering if Chan has played to his 'age' at around this point in his career.  It's a nice movie in that playing a supporting character part allows him to not have to play to his youthful jester star persona.  It allows him to not have to be ON as a performer all the time and really just support the story.

 

I still really like the Kid-Bolo-Yeung that plays the bully in the movie.

 

Interesting that the movie never got a sequel after its impressive box-office take both domestically and internationally ($359 million total on a $40 million budget).  I wonder what happened.

post #415 of 971
I think Jaden Smith's weirdo entitled bullshit stream of consciousness ramblings happened.
post #416 of 971

but not for a while!

post #417 of 971
I never saw the 2010 Karate Kid. But holy shit, of fucking course it's 2.5 hours long.
post #418 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

I never saw the 2010 Karate Kid. But holy shit, of fucking course it's 2.5 hours long.

To be fair, the original feels like it's 2.5hrs long
post #419 of 971

Nah. The first two Karate Kid movies play just fine.

post #420 of 971
I always loved the continuity of the first two. Yes, the third also continues the storyline by having them walking out of the airport from Okinawa, but goddamn.. That third movie is so, so bad. How could they ruin it like that? Plus Macchio put on like 40 pounds on the plane apparently.
post #421 of 971
Thanks to discussion about the gunplay in The Gunslinger Dark Tower movie, I rewatched Equilibrium.

How the incredibly unwieldy phrase "Tetragrammaton Cleric" survived a script polish is beyond me.

The film is 1984 rewritten by a 13 year-old mall Ninja as a module for his pen and paper RPG.
post #422 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lightning Slim View Post
The film is 1984 rewritten by a 13 year-old mall Ninja as a module for his pen and paper RPG.

 

You say that like it's a bad thing.

post #423 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

You say that like it's a bad thing.

I didn't see Equilibrium till I'd discovered CHUD and well after Christian Bale's profile boosted after Batman Begins. I concur that it's a badass time at the movies.

It's The Matrix meets Fahrenheit 451, with all the style of the former and the basic "books are evil" premise of the latter.
post #424 of 971

It's not a good movie. 

post #425 of 971

I remember the gun-fu, but I don't remember the story.

post #426 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mangy View Post
 

I remember the gun-fu, but I don't remember the story.

 

It's the one where Sean Bean dies.

post #427 of 971
Bale saved a puppy!

Taye Diggs is smug!
post #428 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Schwartz View Post

It's the one where Sean Bean dies.

I thought that was GoldenEye.
post #429 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

It's not a good movie. 

 

Boone's correct. I was just going for the funny.

post #430 of 971
Watched UNDER SIEGE last night. Even better than I remembered, top form Andrew Davis was the absolute master. Shame he hasn't directed anything in over a decade. It also succeeds in the feat of making you root for the villains. A lot of it is due to drag artist Gary Busey and rockstar Tommy Lee Jones, but it's also because of the cool little touches, like playing Hendrix after the assholes shoot down a fighter jet. "Welcome to the revolution!"

There are a lot of things that against all odds end up working either by lucky movie alchemy or by the sheer force of Andy Davis. Seagal is a terrible actor, but you completely buy him knowing his shit (and letting himself go after moving to the kitchen). The most useless tactical room ever to appear in a motion picture. Eleniak's wisecracking sidekick / romantic interest. The bizarre final scene (he's back in the Seals? Why is Eleniak crying among the cadets, dressed up like them? Both of them joined the Navy? There's your spin-off)
Edited by Virtanen - 7/7/17 at 3:40am
post #431 of 971

The movie Jones really won his Oscar for.

post #432 of 971
And Busey wasn't even nominated! Sad!

Another great-but-shoudldn't work bit: TLJ's and Seagal's knife fight in the end, with the Sensei's "we're puppets in the same sick game" -speech.
post #433 of 971
watching moviebob's hour-long retrospective of The Matrix and learned something new in regards to the reading of the film as a trans narrative:

in the original intention with the character of Switch was to have the actor play her while in the matrix while having a male actor play the character in the real world.

He says that was something WB wasn't willing to approve of.

I'd just never heard that bit of info about the original screenplay before today.

Also, Lana Wachowski has spoken about having considered attempting suicide at a train station when she was younger. That really gives the scene with Neo and Smith on the tracks a powerful artistic voice, be it intentional or not (very likely intentional!).
post #434 of 971

I have the 'Art of the Matrix' coffee table book which may have covered the gender identity issue.  If not, I'm pretty sure I heard of that before from a different source.  I do wish it had been included.

 

I never watched that that retrospective all the way through.  He was getting into the appropriation of the 'Redpill' term for it's current modern day MRA usage...and he seemed to be implying that the movie didn't properly anticipate this?  How did that play out?

post #435 of 971
He never blames the movie for not anticipating that. It's just him talking about the kind of various impact it had on different identity politics before that became a word.

It's more a commentary about how the film's mix of transgressive narrative and easily digestible chosen-one action movie narrative made it both specific AND general enough to be a zeitgeisty hit. But that generality also made it possible for MRA-types to latch onto it... because everyone could latch onto it.

He actually uses the final stretch to address how the Wachowskis use the sequels to deconstruct and comment on that simplistic hero/villain narrative.
post #436 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

He never blames the movie for not anticipating that. It's just him talking about the kind of various impact it had on different identity politics before that became a word.

It's more a commentary about how the film's mix of transgressive narrative and easily digestible chosen-one action movie narrative made it both specific AND general enough to be a zeitgeisty hit. But that generality also made it possible for MRA-types to latch onto it... because everyone could latch onto it.

He actually uses the final stretch to address how the Wachowskis use the sequels to deconstruct and comment on that simplistic hero/villain narrative.

 

Which is one of the reasons I admire the sequels so much.  They were a push back against the 'chosen one' narrative, and opted for a nuanced resolution at a time when it might not have played well.

post #437 of 971
I admire them greatly as well!

And it definitely didn't play well at that time! It's not the narrative people wanted to see! Hahahah YESSSS
post #438 of 971

I had a co-worker at the time who was following the series, and was let down by the peaceful resolution, and I quote "Wanted to see the machines wiped out."  I raised the point of the Earth generally being unsustainable and incapable of supporting the whole population of the Matrix.

 

"Well, yeah, that makes sense...but I wanted to see the machines wiped out." 

post #439 of 971
we humans really like our comforting narratives
post #440 of 971
Thread Starter 
I never had trouble with the pushback against the Chosen One trope in the sequels, but its execution always felt like the Wachowskis reach exceeding their grasp. That's not to say that the didn't fully understand what they were trying to convey, but that they lacked the skillsets as filmmakers to convey it in a way that was engaging - for me.

Of course, I didn't see the sequels until they were on HBO because they came about at the exact time that I was developing an aversion to sequels and franchises, so I wasn't an especially enthused viewer despite loving the original.
post #441 of 971
oh man, the execution is definitely not anywhere near as developed as it was with the first movie

it really feels like a BOUNDARY PUSHING MULTIMEDIA EXPERIENCE that was really cobbled together in a hurry...

...compared to the first film which was so thoroughly planned out and finesses to get approved at all

in terms of whether a movie "works" or not, I'd never argue that the sequels "work"

I just really appreciate the intent
post #442 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

I never had trouble with the pushback against the Chosen One trope in the sequels, but its execution always felt like the Wachowskis reach exceeding their grasp. That's not to say that the didn't fully understand what they were trying to convey, but that they lacked the skillsets as filmmakers to convey it in a way that was engaging - for me.

 

I find a lot of the Wachowski's post-Matrix output easier to admire than to actually watch.

post #443 of 971
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

in terms of whether a movie "works" or not, I'd never argue that the sequels "work"

I just really appreciate the intent

 

I actually think RELOADED "works", for the most part. 

 

But my appreciation for what they reached for really helps me enjoy REVOLUTIONS, despite seeing its flaws.

post #444 of 971
Thread Starter 
I'll always appreciate the Wachowskis even if I feel that the only film they've made post-Matrix that feels like a total win but was received otherwise is Speed Racer. I say that without any nostalgia from the cartoon attached to it. Speed Racer is a win, full stop, and I believe it's only come about in the past few years that it's being reassessed as such.
post #445 of 971

I feel that way too, but about Cloud Atlas.

post #446 of 971
The only post Matrix film that's a total dud for me was Jupiter Ascending. Never even finished it. It could be argued that Sense8 is the best thing the Wachowskis have done. Its clunky at times but so freaking good when it clicks.
post #447 of 971
yeah Jupiter Ascending felt like it could've been made by someone else

that was a fairly forgettable soft disappointment

haven't seen sense8 though because I have a hard time making the time committment for a big show at home
post #448 of 971

You should watch Sense8, nooj.  I have this feeling that you'll hate it, but defend it your dying breath.

post #449 of 971
maybe once the 2 hour finale comes out...
post #450 of 971
I watched the first half hour of Sense8 and nothing resonated for me. I should try again sometime.
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