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AVENGERS: INFINITY WAR - Pre Release Thread - Page 21

post #1001 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
 

 

I maintain that directors just say this when composers aren't given the time to write proper melodies or aren't good/inspired enough to come up with something memorable. 

 

"We didn't want the music to distract blah-blah-blah." Pish. Show me a scene in Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings, Indiana Jones, Jaws, Titanic, or The Godfather where the melodic scores, timed exactly to what's going on, do anything less than enhance what's going on onscreen. 

 

 

Maybe they trying Dogme 95 on for size.

post #1002 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
 

 

I maintain that directors just say this when composers aren't given the time to write proper melodies or aren't good/inspired enough to come up with something memorable. 

 

"We didn't want the music to distract blah-blah-blah." Pish. Show me a scene in Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings, Indiana Jones, Jaws, Titanic, or The Godfather where the melodic scores, timed exactly to what's going on, do anything less than enhance what's going on onscreen. 

 

I don't disagree with this, but remember that Gabriel Yared's beautiful score for TROY was nixed by audiences saying it felt too old-fashioned.

 

And just like that, the production brings Horner to churn his default sound out in less than two months.

 

So as with most things... the state of film scoring is due to a network of reasons.  Composers don't have the time and support.  Digital editing allows directors to edit their movies until the last minute.  Audiences find a certain type of film score to be too old-fashioned (even for a sword and sandals movie???).  Many directors now want the power of the Zimmer-ish sound.  Some don't want melody to begin with.  The ones that do don't always have enough influence to make it so.

 

Lots of things.

 

Quote:
 After the test screening on 10th March, though, everything had changed. The focus group at the preview decided my music was "overpowering and too big, old fashioned and dated the film."
 
Thus in this 24-hour period my score was completely rejected by director and studio, and a collaboration of one year came to an end, despite the fact that it was unfinished work and that the dub was temporary and, although good, not always perfect.
 
What shocked me the most was that I wasn't given the chance to fix or change my score or even to answer to any of the questions or accusations being leveled at my work, despite the fact that I had sessions booked to redo some cues to the new picture and new versions of other cues.
 
Indeed, the decision to replace me had been taken and meetings with other composers had already taken place before I even spoke personally to Wolfgang.
 
I was later informed that it was "...a problem with the writing" and that the score was beyond the hope of being fixed and they were happy to have a new composer write the whole score just a month-and-a-half before the worldwide release on the 14th May.
post #1003 of 1048
It's funny, because there's a lot in Ant-Man that's forgettable, but the Avengers theme playing over the sight of their compound when Ant-Man parachutes in engraves itself in one's memory.
post #1004 of 1048

I enjoy the Ant-Man theme and am humming it right now thanks to you mentioning it!

post #1005 of 1048

Didn't a later edit of Troy restore that score?

 

I really have been hankering for a while to rewatch that. 

post #1006 of 1048

Not that I know of.

 

I would love to watch that version too.

 

 

TROY did get a longer director's cut released on home video.  But it was still Horner's score (and some Tim Burton eheheh)

 

Not that I've really looked that hard into it, but I'm surprised there isn't some fan-edit version that puts Yared's score back into the film.

post #1007 of 1048
I seem to remember there were some small pieces of Yared's score reinserted into Troy's extended cut but it's been ten years since I watched it so my memory might be hazy.
post #1008 of 1048

Yared, I think, streamed the score once upon a time. Memory says it was pretty great, but it's been years since. I'd love for it to get a release, but that seems doubtful.

post #1009 of 1048

post #1010 of 1048
Quote:
 

Troy: Director's Cut was screened at the 57th Berlin International Film Festival on February 17, 2007 and received a limited release in Germany in April 2007. Warner Home Video reportedly spent more than $1 million for the director's cut, which includes "at least 1,000 new cuts" or almost 30 minutes extra footage (with a new running time of 196 minutes). The DVD was released on September 18, 2007 in the US. The score of the film was changed dramatically, with many of the female vocals being cut. An addition to the music is the use of Danny Elfman's theme for Planet of the Apes during the pivotal fight between Hector and Achilles in front of the Gates of Troy.

Various shots were recut and extended. For instance, the love scene between Helen and Paris was reframed to include more nudity of Diane Kruger. The love scene between Achilles and Briseis is also extended. Only one scene was removed: the scene where Helen tends to the wound of Paris is taken out. The battle scenes were also extended, showing much more of Ajax's bloody rampage on the Trojans during the initial attack by the Greek Army. Perhaps most significant was the sacking of Troy, barely present in the theatrical cut, but shown fully here, depicting the soldiers raping women and murdering babies. Characters were given more time to develop, specifically Priam and Odysseus, the latter being given a humorous introduction scene. Lastly, bookend scenes were added: the beginning being a soldier's dog finding its dead master and the end including a sequence where the few surviving Trojans escape to Mount Ida. In one of the commentary sequences, the film's writer, David Benioff, said that when it came to deciding whether to follow The Iliad or to do what was best for the film, they always decided with what was best for the film.

 

That bolded bit is so interesting...it really makes me want to rewatch it post-Game of Thrones. 

post #1011 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

 

So fucking great! What a shame.

 

It's like the Jerry Goldsmith Judge Dredd score we'll never hear in full but did get the theme for the trailer. A better superhero theme than any MCU movie, and it was rejected!!

 

 

post #1012 of 1048

Listening to Yared's score now, I almost wonder if that one audience didn't take to it because it so overpowered what was otherwise a pretty mediocre movie (one that I actually enjoy several parts of, but mediocre nonetheless).  I mean, c'mon... Pitt's goofy performance in this (as much as I enjoyed the physicality of it) along with the rest of the actors made it such an 'anachronistic' mish-mash.

 

Horner's rushed score probably suits the actual quality of the movie 'better.'

 

 

 

But still... in the end... CURSE THE TEST AUDIENCE THAT GOT THIS SCORE REJECTED.  CURSE THE STUDIO FOR FLINCHING AT IT!!!

 

 

and OH MAN!  I never actually saw JUDGE DREDD, but I know that trailer music for sure!  I had no idea it was one Goldsmith did specifically for that film.  It's great!

post #1013 of 1048
Goldsmith scored way too many films that did not deserve his talent. If he were scoring today he'd probably be doing movies like GODS OF EGYPT and I, FRANKENSTIEN instead of MCU.
post #1014 of 1048

If Gods of Egypt or I, Frankenstein had an epic Jerry Goldsmith score, they would already be 50% better. So they would be half good.

post #1015 of 1048

I actually really like Beltrami's score for Gods of Egypt!  He was probably going for a Goldsmith score anyway!

 

but ooooh for Goldsmith to have done it himself...

 

post #1016 of 1048

Yeah, kind of sounds like a riff on his Mummy score.

 

post #1017 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

 

I don't disagree with this, but remember that Gabriel Yared's beautiful score for TROY was nixed by audiences saying it felt too old-fashioned.

 

And just like that, the production brings Horner to churn his default sound out in less than two months.

 

So as with most things... the state of film scoring is due to a network of reasons.  Composers don't have the time and support.  Digital editing allows directors to edit their movies until the last minute.  Audiences find a certain type of film score to be too old-fashioned (even for a sword and sandals movie???).  Many directors now want the power of the Zimmer-ish sound.  Some don't want melody to begin with.  The ones that do don't always have enough influence to make it so.

 

 

If any audience is using 'old-fashioned' to mean Williams/Goldsmith/Shore/Horner, they're fucking dumb. I've not heard Yared's Troy score, but perhaps the test-audience used the extremely vague term 'old-fashioned' to describe the extremely subjective subject of the film's score because they felt it sounded like The Adventures of Robin Hood, Jason and the Argonauts, or The Ten Commandments. 

 

I like a lot of Han Zimmer's stuff - and he has composed a lot of beautiful, melody heavy themes - but I think the reason directors and studios love him, his style, and his apprentices so much just now is that you can take a given track and set it over any random ten minutes in the film. You can't do that with 'The Asteroid Field', 'The Great Shark Chase', 'The Siege of Gondor' or what have you, because those composers have a finished film to score to. 

 

If modern audiences actually object to melodic scores on 'old-fashioned' grounds, it's just another sign of the backward-ass, 'good is bad and bad is good' times we live in. "Ehhh... The old Jurassic Park is shit because the colours aren't fucking ghastly looking fake-ass extremes of lurid orange and blue... Fucking Jabba doesn't flex his skin, gyrate, twitch and fleck spittle at the camera enough for me to suspend my oh-so-sophisticated disbelief... Eeeeyeehhh, the music complements the thoughts and emotions of the characters, and ties too directly with the action on screen; does the director have so little faith in his film that he needs John Williams to tell me what to feel?".

 

And so on. 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by User_32 View Post
 

Yeah, kind of sounds like a riff on his Mummy score.

 

 

 

The Mummy has a fantastic score. It's a really underrated film actually - I saw it recently for the first time in over a decade, and it succeeds at everything it's trying to do - be a fun, gruesome, exciting romp with dastardly villains and comely dames. 


Edited by RexBanner - 12/2/17 at 3:30pm
post #1018 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post
 

 

 

 

I like a lot of Han Zimmer's stuff - and he has composed a lot of beautiful, melody heavy themes - but I think the reason directors and studios love him, his style, and his apprentices so much just now is that you can take a given track and set it over any random ten minutes in the film. You can't do that with 'The Asteroid Field', 'The Great Shark Chase', 'The Siege of Gondor' or what have you, because those composers have a finished film to score to. 

 

YESSSSS

post #1019 of 1048

Reading an old Filmtracks review of TROY's score, it goes over the tumultuous history of Yared's score getting axed.  It features some quotes from Horner's reaction to hearing Yared's score with a cut of the film.

 

Horner seriously sounds like an asshole here:

 

Quote:
 Peterson, who was largely responsible for requesting the old-fashioned epic sound from Yared in the first place, did nothing to defend Yared despite his overflowing support for the composer prior to the screenings. Even as Yared still had orchestral sessions scheduled to put the finishing touches on the score, Peterson desperately called John Debney for last minute assistance and was turned down.
 
The director then pleaded for help from James Horner, with whom he had collaborated on The Perfect Storm. Horner's reaction was one of smug, indignant disdain for how his score was badly mixed with the sound effects of the oceans in that prior work, but he accepted the challenge of scoring Troy in just ten days after viewing the same unfinished version presented in the screenings and being horrified by Yared's score.
 
"I don't even know how to describe how atrocious the music was," Horner stated not long after. "It was like a 1950's Hercules movie. And it wasn't because Gabriel's not a gifted writer; it's because he just doesn't have any knowledge of writing film scores. Real film scores like that. It was so corny. It was unbelievable."
 
Citing Peterson's almost juvenile-seeming misdirection of Yared's "overblown" score, Horner continued, "Gabriel dutifully did whatever was asked of him by Wolfgang, and Wolfgang's musical tendencies are to overscore everything, like a Wagner opera. He's not into subtlety. Apparently it made the audience laugh in places during serious scenes. And this combination of this 'please do it bigger and bigger and bigger' and 'more is better' from Wolfgang and Gabriel's not knowing what big cinematic action music should be... they both came up with this score that was absolutely dreadful. Absolutely dreadful."
 
He diminished Yared's Oscar-winning score for The English Patient at the same time, saying that it "was really very much based on Bach's music. I mean, if you listen to Bach's preludes and fugues and those things you'll hear Gabriel's score." Horner had also expressed irritation with not being tapped to score the film from the start. "I wasn't asked to do the original, which was sort of a bit of a twinge for me, because I did such a nice job, or he seemed so pleased on The Perfect Storm," he said. "Wolfgang was white. Completely shaken. Totally lost his confidence. I met with Wolfgang, and he of course, was completely cowed out, apologetic, embarrassed, and said I would be allowed to do whatever I wanted... 'would I please, please, please, do this, as a favor?' And how grateful he would be at that trouble."

 

Yared's score is glorious and Peterson's film didn't deserve it.

post #1020 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by RexBanner View Post

Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

 
which goes into how modern scores really shy away from having too much melody

I maintain that directors just say this when composers aren't given the time to write proper melodies or aren't good/inspired enough to come up with something memorable. 

"We didn't want the music to distract blah-blah-blah." Pish. Show me a scene in Star Wars, The Lord of the Rings, Indiana Jones, Jaws, Titanic, or The Godfather where the melodic scores, timed exactly to what's going on, do anything less than enhance what's going on onscreen. 

There is that Hollywood Reporter Composers Roundtable with them talking about directors asking for that. I don't get it, especially in this big comic book movies. Then again I don't really get much about how they choose to go about doing comic book movies. Doing a comic book movie seems like it should be carte blanche for stylization, but outside of a few things they don't really lean into comic book things.
post #1021 of 1048
The restored score in the Director’s Cut ruins the tense fight scene between Achilles and Hector. Poop on that score!
post #1022 of 1048

That fight is far and away the best part of the film. When the movie runs on TV, it's the only part I make a point to watch. Pitt and Bana fucking sell it.

post #1023 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaunH View Post

The restored score in the Director’s Cut ruins the tense fight scene between Achilles and Hector. Poop on that score!

 

That is actually Danny Elfman's theme from Planet of the Apes. 

post #1024 of 1048

No wonder I want to shit in my hand and fling poo at it!

post #1025 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

That fight is far and away the best part of the film. When the movie runs on TV, it's the only part I make a point to watch. Pitt and Bana fucking sell it.


That fight makes me super anxious every single time.  Very well done. 

post #1026 of 1048

The worst thing about Troy is it failed so bad we never got Sean Bean's Odyssey. 

 

The best thing is when Orlando Bloom makes sure to bold, underline, and emphasize that the guy's name is Aeneas, like an Easter Egg for classical history buffs. 

post #1027 of 1048

the contrast in physicality between Pitt and Bana is so fun

 

Bana fights like a human while Pitt fights like a poseable action figure

post #1028 of 1048

Lots of fancy pants leaping lunging strikes from Pitt that are designed to look SUPER sexy.  Meanwhile Bana is just like "AH FUCK!" and stumbling barely keeping up.

 

Impossible not to cheer for Bana.  One day I'll watch that fight and he'll WIN dammit!

post #1029 of 1048

the shots of Saffron Burrows hyperventilating really add to the sequence too

post #1030 of 1048

Orlando Bloom reached the apex of Douche Mountain in Troy. 

 

This is now the Avengers: TROY thread. 

post #1031 of 1048

SHIT SCORE

 

So much fucking better:

 

post #1032 of 1048

Hector's wimpy little brother fucks a girl.

 

Hector dies for it, instead of Orlando.  Seems legit. 

post #1033 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
 

Hector's wimpy little brother fucks a girl.

 

Hector dies for it, instead of Orlando.  Seems legit. 


Proof that love isn't fair and its also a battlefield.

post #1034 of 1048

post #1035 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Boone Daniels View Post
 

 

 

This is now the Avengers: TROY thread. 

I did this

post #1036 of 1048

It's not even a very good movie. 

post #1037 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

I did this

 

yes you did

post #1038 of 1048
With all this talk about the various Troy versions, let's also mention that Kingdom of Heaven probably has the greatest (in terms of improving the movie) director's cut of all time.
post #1039 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post

With all this talk about the various Troy versions, let's also mention that Kingdom of Heaven probably has the greatest (in terms of improving the movie) director's cut of all time.

 

And it's still GARBAGE!

post #1040 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by ShaunH View Post

No wonder I want to shit in my hand and fling poo at it!

Uh no. It's wrongly placed in Troy but Elfman's Planet of the Apes score is one of his best. Second only to Goldsmith's for the Apes films. The theme is so, so great.
post #1041 of 1048

I always root for Achilles. He has panache!

 

Also, Cylon's correct about KOH.

post #1042 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post
 

I always root for Achilles. He has panache!

 

Also, Cylon's correct about KOH.


You WOULD root for the guy who's being a complete asshole. 

post #1043 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cylon Baby View Post
 

 

And it's still GARBAGE!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by MichaelM View Post

 

Also, Cylon's correct about KOH.

 

 

LIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEEEEEESSSSSSSSSSSS

post #1044 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
You WOULD root for the guy who's being a complete asshole. 

 

It's why I like you, bubi.

post #1045 of 1048

Yiss.

post #1046 of 1048

A superhero movie based around a siege would be quite a thing to see (I can't think of any examples). Hell, it's not like Homer's going to sue - give us an Avengers which follows the plot of Troy, and make sure just as many characters die. 

 

In fact, while I totally understand why, most superhero films' plots boil down to 'X fights Y'. Marvel does this really well, but it wouldn't be difficult to do a few quest stories, voyage stories, etc. 

post #1047 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post
 

It's not even a very good movie. 

 

But we did get to see Diane Kruger's ass. 

post #1048 of 1048
Quote:
Originally Posted by Anger Management View Post
 

 

But we did get to see Diane Kruger's ass. 

 

A bucket list item, for sure. 

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