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MINDHUNTER on Netflix - Page 2

post #51 of 90
Originally Posted by Judas Booth View Post

I should say: the Bill Tench relationship/family worked much better, probably because all of the parts were played by better actors.  That relationship feels like it's heading to a predictable place (divorce), but there's still enough there to warrant interest, and the season spent just enough time on that relationship to provide the right amount of character back story to the Tench character.


Yeah I enjoyed everything with Tench. I don't really know what the magic formula is, and I do agree that without any relationship stuff it'd be in danger of devolving into CSI or something, but a good show definitely shouldn't have you wanting to hit the fast-forward button every time they show a character's home life.

post #52 of 90

The problem is the home life usually ends up being a bitchy wife/girlfriend who doesn't understand the work her partner does.  Wash, rinse, repeat.

post #53 of 90

Just started this last night and ripped through the first four.  Quite good so far. High-quality scripting, direction, and, for the most part, acting.  The girlfriend is juuuuust starting to bother me in little ways similar to many here, so we'll see.

post #54 of 90

post #55 of 90

Haven't read this thread yet, as I'm only through episode 8, and I want to finish before I see what anyone else is thinking (and possibly get spoiled).  But I wanted to say that I really love the little lighter moments that are thrown in here and there, especially since I expected the whole thing to be entertaining, but more on the dour side.


I loved the part specifically...and you really don't want to be spoiled if you are not through with episode 8 yet...


Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
when Holden is being serious and trying to sell the teacher on why he needs to use certain extreme/harsh words, and of course the whole thing is implying that it will be presented in front of high school students, but then it's actually elementary students instead.


It of course works so well because it's happening with Holden, but I especially enjoy how little moments like this kind of fill in how naive (or maybe just a little too focused on his goal instead of what is happening around him at a particular moment in time) Holden is at times.  And I also like that it's moments such as this that play well off of some of the other more gruesome or dark aspects of the show.


Really enjoying it thus far, and hoping they stick the landing.

post #56 of 90

I thought his girlfriend was interesting in her own right.  If anything the main character was even weirder and more stilted than she was.  Seeing how the work magnified his personality disorder on two fronts was pretty interesting.


Personally I hope she's in season 2.  She can get with Dr. Carr.

post #57 of 90
2 episodes in, and loving how shocking it is to think about how psychology and the whole idea of serial killers and psychopaths, so commonplace in real life and media now, wasn’t even a concept just 50 years ago.
Just thinking how many fucking monsters were out there and maybe never got caught before profiling and the like began taking place is a scary thought.
Also, fuck, why did did my old dog popped up dead here?
I’ve barely gotten over seeing a fox terrier wire hair get killed in Hudson Hawk, and now this.*

*Yes, I am aware that complain about dead dogs in a show about serial killers it’s cliched/weird, but it always hurts to see the same breed of an old dog of yours onscreen, dead or killed. Same reason I couldn’t stand A fish called Wanda for a long time. (Those Yorkies!!!)
post #58 of 90

Man, I really like this.


Who could have thought that a Fincher involved show about serials killers would be my kind of thing? And Anna Torv too! I didn't know she was in it and I cheered when she showed up.

post #59 of 90

There must be something in the water in Australia that generates a certain type of strikingly poised actress.


I liked this quite a bit, but a lot of it did feel like set up for some future payoff. Exactly how good it is will probably depend on how it evolves over the next seasion(s). But the cast is great and it's hard to fault how well put together it is.


I did love seeing one of those driving seat exposition scenes result in an actual crash for once.

post #60 of 90

Wow.  They really leaned into "Holden is a dick" in the last episode.

Not sure how I feel about this.  I think I really liked it, all the procedural stuff and coming up with the diagnoses stuff was great, but it kind of just sat there overall.

And Holden was a total dick.  And I did not for once buy his relationship.

post #61 of 90
Originally Posted by Andy Bain View Post

Wow.  They really leaned into "Holden is a dick" in the last episode.

Not sure how I feel about this.  I think I really liked it, all the procedural stuff and coming up with the diagnoses stuff was great, but it kind of just sat there overall.

And Holden was a total dick.  And I did not for once buy his relationship.


Yeah, it was a surprising turn toward the end, he almost became a different character.


It's a great series, but yes, it's got its problems, alot of it just kind of floats by and there's weird character stuff.

post #62 of 90

Ehhh. I actually think that Holden was always kind of a dickish character, and as he became more successful and sure of himself, kept getting proven right with his research, it just came further to the surface.

post #63 of 90

He was always sort of arrogant, but in theory mostly. As written, you could tell that Holden's meant to come across as this hubristic dick but Groff is such an affable "beta male" actor (he's like a slightly more confident version of Michael Cera) that when he went full dick I still felt a weird cognitive dissonance.

post #64 of 90

I'm at episode 6. Fincher has drummed up one hell of a winner with this.


It's the anti-CSI/Criminal Minds, slick in direction but gritty and sardonic in tone. With the possible exception of Hannibal, this might be the darkest procedural series I've ever seen, the reason being that we know most of the the villains upfront and after the fact. It's about trying to process criminal identity. And the chemistry among the entire cast is off the charts.


Man, the Beverly Jean Shaw transcends disturbance.

post #65 of 90
I'm colored by having read a lot of John E. Douglas' stuff and so I kind of already had an opinion on Holden's character - so to me he was basically a dick from maybe episode 3 or so and as he got more successful it just threw gasoline on it.

It also seemed like they were playing a little with "8mm" territory where the longer Holden spends looking at this fucked up stuff, the less bothered by it he gets. If they want to, there's an interesting question there to mine about "can psychopathy be taught?" And id argue sure - the difference between a psychopath and you or I is that to a psychopath, other people don't exist. They are things. They don't have interior lives, but instead are external objects of either desire or anger or frustration. The ability to dehumanize people that we talk about in relation to war is literally taking normal people and making a concerted effort to make them psychopathic in order to perform a job. I think the evidence is pretty overwhelming that you can take a normal person and teach them to see other people or classes of people as non-human objects of hate or desire.

The thing I really hope this show does in latter seasons is point out how limited profiling can still be. Take a look at what's been released about Douglas' profile of the Green River Killer sometime - the full profile is still sealed I think, but when they finally caught the guy it was pretty stark how off-base some of the released info from the profile was.

I think about how the Zodiac got away - we would have caught him in the aftermath of the Paul Stine killing. Cops drove literally right by the guy but due to an erroneous report that the suspect was a "black male" they didn't stop him. Profiles are a good tool, but it's a double edged sword where anchoring becomes a real concern. If the profile says you're looking for a white dude in his 20s, and your killer is a black man in his 40s, then you're LESS likely to catch the guy using the profile, not more.
post #66 of 90
Wow, at episode 3 this thing just takes off.
post #67 of 90

Haven't watched this show yet, but one of these days...

Anyhow, I saw this reel of Fincher and friends enjoying themselves recreating the 70s  (something he likes it seems)



It seems stupid but I kinda love that they went to all the bother of reinstating period appropriate kerbing.

post #68 of 90

Finished it last night. Superb. As someone who worships Fincher's thriller endeavors and, on another hand, period pieces like The Americans, this is everything I wanted from the concept. The balance between episodic cases and continuing narrative is a delicate one, but for this kind of thing that necessitates four days or so to go through, you get a realistic handle on the toll of the job for Ford, Tench, and Dr. Carr.


Cast is great, but I'd finger Holt McCallany and Anna Torv as the breakouts.


For those who've finished:


Warning: Spoiler! (Click to show)
It's a breath of fresh air that this doesn't end in anyone drawing their gun, only the initial standoff that makes Ford disillusioned with hostage negotiation. No standoffs, just compelling drama and character work.
The word that the Atlanta child murders will be the focal point of Season 2 seems like a fascinating direction, but I hope they keep the same momentum with occasional pitstops for interviews, with the BTK Killer emerging from his shadowy glimpses.
Will Debbie be back, or will she call it quits with Ford?
Hoping we get more on Dr. Carr's personal life (and Lena Olin).
Tench's family life struck a deep chord for me.
Those cold opens with the BTK Killer were ballsy as hell. Gotta wonder how many people watched wondering what the hell was going on there. Even I thought this was going to come to a showdown, but it doesn't. I didn't even realize that that was supposed to be him. It's the long game.


One more thing: is the show supposed to be set in 1977 or 1979? Both years get offered as official descriptions but I couldn't quite get a handle.

post #69 of 90

I'm telling you, Debbie needs to get with Dr. Carr.

post #70 of 90

We made it up to episode 7 this weekend.


Show is very good. 

post #71 of 90

Yes. It's tremendous. Best thing Netflix has put out this year, IMO.

post #72 of 90
Originally Posted by HunterTarantino View Post

Yes. It's tremendous. Best thing Netflix has put out this year, IMO.


I ride or die for AMERICAN VANDAL and GLOW but this is much better than expected. #whodrewthedicks

post #73 of 90
Originally Posted by HunterTarantino View Post


One more thing: is the show supposed to be set in 1977 or 1979? Both years get offered as official descriptions but I couldn't quite get a handle.


I think I figured this out - the show starts in 1977, but there's a time jump that isn't fully addressed where Holden finishes his degree. There are references later in the series that make it sound like he went through the full post-grad process, which usually takes about a year to two years for a Master's. So the back half of the show is probably '79. That also fits with some of the music cues - "Psycho Killer" is '77, but "I Don't Like Mondays" is '79 and Exile's "Kiss You All Over" (which is clearly used as diegetic sound in that scene between Holden and Debbie at the end of episode 7) was October '78. 

post #74 of 90

Finished the first season. Very solid. Functions as both companion to ZODIAC and creation myth for not only the BSU, but our national obsession with serial killers. You look at that final scene between Ford and Kemper and it's hard not to see Lecter and Graham, or Lecter and Clarice, playing out. 


8/10. It'll be curious to see how the Atlanta Child Murders play out next season.

post #75 of 90

I really enjoyed it too. Excellent acting by all, most importantly by the killers in jail.

I could have done without the sex scenes, i'm no prude but I don't understand why all these shows find it necessary to put it in.  I guess i'm saying, just because you can do it, doesn't mean you have to do it.

post #76 of 90
I just looked at it as them showing how Fords sexual proclivities evolved as he was being exposed to more cases involving violence and/or sex-driven violence. The two are related, and the show probably felt they had to show the co-existence of both.
post #77 of 90

Yeah, the few sex scenes in this series could hardly be construed as gratuitous T&A, they're essential in establishing what the investigations are doing to those investigating. 

post #78 of 90

Yeah, the arc of Ford as this person who is actively engaged and listening to his partner, both in their first meeting and in bed (as when he goes down on her), to this person who is being openly critical and controlling of her in bed ('that's not you*') and who won't even let her have the courtesy of doing the breaking up because he's got to prove his intelligence, is underlined by the sex scenes. 


And, of course, that arrogance is shattered in the last scene of the finale when he's confronted by Kemper and is reminded how truly dangerous these men are. 


*Of course, this scene has the added layer of him getting turned on by the same shoes he gave to Brudos.

post #79 of 90

Finished this other day. I thought it was a little slow starting out but once it picked up, I was hooked. 


And Holt McCallany (Bill) also played the loathsome cad who murders George Kennedy and Dorothy Lamour in Creepshow 2. 




Such beautiful hair. 

post #80 of 90

Finished this over the weekend. Thought it was pretty fantastic and engrossing for the most part. Looks great to boot from start to finish. 


I didn't click the BTK connection till the end cause I never realized the serial killers being interviewed were actually real people (or that the whole story is more or less factually accurate with some name changes and the added relationship drama I'm guessing).


Knowing Edmund Kemper not only exists but is still alive is not good for my constitution. 

post #81 of 90
Originally Posted by JacknifeJohnny View Post

It's actually pretty upsetting, so I'm going to omit some details. Glenn was hanging with Douglas to get a feel for how to play Jack Crawford and at some point, Douglas let Glenn listen to audio tapes made by a serial killer. These audio tapes contained the sounds of the killer and his victims, the latter in their last moments of life. Glenn says that it gave him nightmares for months (and still marks him to this day) and when he confronted Douglas about why he was made to listen to it, Douglas cavalierly said something like: "Welcome to my world, buddy!"

Those tapes were never made public, but I read the first couple of lines from court transcripts and yes, even my reading what Glenn (and jurors) heard, was a fucking nightmare. I stopped reading the transcripts about five or six lines in.

If you have even the slightest bit of morbid curiosity, I recommend that you do not pursue those transcripts. Reading it will add nothing to your life and might indeed strip a little bit of it away.

I feel like Johnny will one day try to talk me out of doing heroin, and then I will definitely try heroin.  

Kidding, I know you tried your best.

For now.... I haven't searched for the tapes, but damnit.

post #82 of 90
That whole line of conversation of JJ's was very strange.
post #83 of 90

I get the sentiment, I think.  Although It's true;  I can't really picture anyone of chud's general demographic not knowing already that you can find bad stuff on the internet if you really want to.  Being made aware of specific examples wouldn't alter that much, I don't think.  But maybe I'm wrong.  (Was it Lake and Ng material?  Could be a lot of more obscure murderers I'm not that familiar with I suppose,  but don't google those guys either.  Yeesh)


The conversation puts me in mind of that vicarious relationship to all this stuff that we have.  It's detached from the grim reality, almost by necessity.  We fuss over the details and sensational elements almost as a way to not look squarely at what exactly is at the heart of it.


I took that final scene to be about that too, in a way.  Incidentally I had no real problems with this show at all.  I thought Ford's relationship was actually really interesting and well acted.  I think you're supposed to feel like they're wrong for each other and don't get along all that well,  but there's that initial attraction that is a cerebral lust.  They're enjoying their heightened intellectual intensity.  They both to some extent think it's about showing their 'martial art' is strong and he in particular thinks it's all about methodically mastering, well, everything really.


The parallel I'm drawing starts with (as I think everyone knows) Ford gradually becoming more arrogant and controlling as he simultaneously loses control, so he runs back to the place where he feels most at home and in charge.  It's a slightly cheesy move to pull that horror movie stuff in this show, really  But it's also pretty necessary as I think not only is that Ford's delusion as far as coping with what he's dealing with, but the audience's as well. We sit there riding that emotional arousal, that thrill of sensation and intellectual engagement/vanity, at a remove we can adjust.  In charge, you might say.  Well, no; take away the desk and the safety net and see how you like it up close.  Really get to grips with it, or let it get to grips with you.


I do think that's all going on in the scene, but at the same time life may have given it a new resonance since recently a friendly acquaintance of mine was convicted of murder.  In that situation it seems like everyone around you becomes a true crime nerd (and I already sort of was one).  I like to think I thought about this stuff before, but it really does make you take a slightly different look at the way people treat these subjects.

post #84 of 90
Originally Posted by Muzman View Post

I do think that's all going on in the scene, but at the same time life may have given it a new resonance since recently a friendly acquaintance of mine was convicted of murder. 


You buried the lede.

post #85 of 90

...So to speak.

(probably the wrong thread for that joke.....)

post #86 of 90

Finished this last night.  Great show, very addictive.


I could be wrong, but having checked out what others have said, I think people may missing what I think is going on with Holden.  People saying he is a dick, that his relationship with his girlfriend doesn't make sense, well...maybe there is a reason?


Holden, to me, appears to have some of the similarities of the people they are interviewing.  Now, this could be viewed as simply cunning and experience in the FBI and comes from his training, but I think this is where his relationship with his girlfriend brings more insight into his character. 


They get along well at first, he finds what he perceives to be an equal.  Eventually, the magic wears off.  At one point he tells her that he just wants her to "be his girlfriend" and appreciate how awesome he his.  He is looking for attention.  He has a very high opinion of himself, but he can't read her feelings, outside of reading external things.  Like how she is crossing her arms, or how much wine she has drank, etc.  He can't put himself in her shoes, but he is very good at guessing her next move based on his knowledge of people and how they treat there external environment.


Googled this.  Stages of a narcissistic relationship:


1. Idealize - "Wow you are really smart, like me!"

2. Devalue - "Why are you always upset?  You just talk about you stupid classes. Just be my girlfriend and tell me how great I am"

3. Discard - "I can see you are looking to break up with me.  This isn't working. OK, bye."


If you look at the people they are investigating, they say, at one point, that the serial killers lack empathy.  Holden lacks empathy.  Narcississits/sociopaths/psychopaths, which someone mentioned earlier, view people as objects, they cannot put themselves in other people's shoes.


So, Holden is able to discern the thoughts and motivations of the people they are interviewing, because he is like them. I think, and again I could be wrong, that Holden actually may have characteristics of narcississits/sociopaths/psychopaths, but he has yet to act on anything in his warped mind, so he seems "normal".


This is why the last scene of the last episode is key.  He is starting to realize that he may be like these killers and it scares the shit out of him.  They see him as a "friend", someone who understands them, one of their own.


I could go on, but I think I am rambling at this point.


Anyways, really looking forward to Season 2. 

post #87 of 90
Panic attack is the last thing a psychopath would have, though.
post #88 of 90
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

Panic attack is the last thing a psychopath would have, though.

post #89 of 90
I'm not a psychologist but psychopathy isn't to my knowledge something you can grow into or retreat from.
post #90 of 90
Originally Posted by stelios View Post

I'm not a psychologist but psychopathy isn't to my knowledge something you can grow into or retreat from.

It is possible to feel fear and also have a psychological condition. 


For example, many people believe that Trump has Narcissistic Personality Disorder, but if you have seen this video of him freaking out when he first began his run for president, you can see it is possible for someone with a disorder(if you believe he has one), to be genuinely afraid for their life, despite being a horrible person who only cares about themselves.




Also, to note, within the show itself, they confront Richard Speck about his suicide attempt, which he completely denies, despite the obvious slashes on his wrists.  This suggests that at some point he felt guilt for his previous actions.  Whatever guilt he actually may have felt is debatable, but just because someone is a psychopath/sociopath does not mean they never have moments of clarity and feel some sort of remorse for their actions.


Does this mean Holden is definitely a psychopath?  No, but I don't think it is completely out of the realm of possibility to think that he may have some sort of psychological condition. 

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