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Star Wars: The Last Jedi (2017) Post-Release - Page 143

post #7101 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

We did. We all went to the local cafe afterwards. We’re all fans, some of us brough their kids. They were fucking perplexed. Honestly we all sat there and had the same questions. Believe it or not, not everybody lets this film just wash over them and is blinded by the Star Wars branding. Not even kids nowadays.


 


Were you this condescending at the cafe, or did you dial a down a little?
post #7102 of 7538

Moaning

Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post

Right. So we’re relying on Wookiepedia to make sense of plot points now?

Wookiepedia.

You know, there are still openings over at TheForce.net for you guys?

 

C3PO being able to see Luke absolutely does not count as a plot point. It's a wrinkle that, if you're so inclined, invites you think about the nature of Luke's projection and/or whether Star Wars robots are sentient. It's nuts to consider this a stick to beat the film with. 

post #7103 of 7538

At this point, I wouldnt be surprised if the next "IT" thing to tackle onto movies (after 3D, IMAX, and so on) its "Augmented Reality" glasses or a viewing app that displays additional info while you are watching the movie.

Imagine everyone in the audience staring at the screen, then at their phones/tablets, and again and again and again.

A museum guide for the movie you watching, in all seriousness, a modern version of this:

 

post #7104 of 7538
stale is just relishing!


hahahaha, that DUNE terminology sheet reminds me of the insert that came with the DVD for Pirates: At World's End that explained the doofy plot with a handy dandy FAQ!
Edited by mcnooj82 - 1/12/18 at 11:19am
post #7105 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post


You’re suggesting TLJ is some higher form of filmmaking than Transformers?

 

It is, by several orders of magnitude. The folk who directed, wrote, scored, designed, and acted it in all cared a great deal more, and thought about it a lot harder, than their opposite numbers on Transformers. It's also trying to do more. 

post #7106 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post


You’ve just pointed me towards a Wookiepedia entry to try to explain a plot point to me. A plot point that was being brought up by people leaving the threatened. Not to worry, some biff explained it on Wookiepedia 24 hours later. Good job we don’t look to the writer or director to make these things work hey? It’s explained on Wookiepedia so it’s a good film.

What the fuck?

What the actual fuck?

Do we just chug down any old shit on here now?

 

post #7107 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

stale is just relishing!


hahahaha, that DUNE terminology sheet reminds me of the insert that came with the DVD for Pirates: At World's End that explained the doofy plot with a handy dandy FAQ!

Nothing will ever surpass Ben Affleck openly fucking with Bay on the Armaggedon commentary:

 

 

That would be an AR Baymorphers guide. Just Bay telling you shut the fuck up.

post #7108 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stale Elvis View Post


A plot point that was being brought up by people leaving the threatened. 

 

I assume you meant 'theater'.

 

Also, I imagine even the best of movies have someone leaving the theater pointing out something that stuck out to them.  

 

I don't think that makes it anymore a legitimate issue OR even just nitpicking to be brushed off.  It is simply just WHAT IT IS.  If one leaves a movie with that tiny moment on the mind, I assume the movie simply did not work for them AT ALL.  Which is reasonable.

 

 

But it doesn't even take much imagination to explain why 3PO can see Luke (because I lack imagination!).... unless one is simply relishing in the hate and refuses to budge to a movie they were disappointed by!  well THEN, I understand!  OH HO!  I UNDERSTAND!

 

 

Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoken View Post
 

Nothing will ever surpass Ben Affleck openly fucking with Bay on the Armaggedon commentary:

 

 

 

That would be an AR Baymorphers guide. Just Bay telling you shut the fuck up.

 

such a great commentary track!  have you ever listened to it all the way to the end?  right before the movie cuts off, you hear Bruce whisper... "GOD BLESS AMERICA"

post #7109 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by ryoken View Post
 

Nothing will ever surpass Ben Affleck openly fucking with Bay on the Armaggedon commentary:

 

 

That would be an AR Baymorphers guide. Just Bay telling you shut the fuck up.

 

This is delightful!

post #7110 of 7538

there's also a part of the technical commentary where the DP on the film talks about lighting Liv Tyler's skin...

 

and now he would need to change his approach depending on whether she was on her period right then or not

 

 

"huh... that is VERY SPECIFIC information!"

post #7111 of 7538

Soon theaters are going to cotton on to the fact that there's an audience for A4 sheets of gripes handed to you as you leave the cinema. 'See how far you can go down the list until you start choking on bile!'

 

 

Quote:

 

LEVEL ONE - FAIR DOS

 

  • I didn't like Luke's characterisation; I don't see the Luke in the OT behaving that way.

 

  • Holdo could've just told Poe what was going on - it's not like the Resistance is a formal military, and he did just blow up Starkiller Base.

 

  • Wasn't a huge fan of the casino planet - dragged the film down a bit.

 

  • Leia looked a bit naff in space.

 

 

LEVEL TWO - NITPICKING

 

  • Why didn't they just hyperspace in front of the Resistance ships?

 

  • Gravity bombs.

 

  • Why aren't they always light-speeding into ships?

 

 

 

Quote:

 

LEVEL TEN - A NEW DEFINITION OF INSANE

 

  • Finn's reaction to Canto Bight, and his response to Rose's story was a bit... too in-character.

 

  • WTF C3PO can see Luke too? Are we meant to assume that either a) the Force which can muddle minds, generate lightning, and throw things around can generate visible effects? or b) C3PO's cameras are capable of being manipulated by the Force, established from day one as existing throughout the universe between all things?

 

  • Hyperspace fuel

 

  • Why does Leia, the Force-sensitive daughter of Darth Vader, leave the dice given her by her brother's projection? What a plot hole!

 

  • How the fuck does Poe know Maz Kanata? We never saw them speak in The Force Awakens. 

Edited by RexBanner - 1/12/18 at 12:19pm
post #7112 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post
 

there's also a part of the technical commentary where the DP on the film talks about lighting Liv Tyler's skin...

 

and now he would need to change his approach depending on whether she was on her period right then or not

 

 

How .... did ... he ... know ....

post #7113 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Overlord View Post
 

 

How .... did ... he ... know ....

Duh, Michael Bay demands every female actress that works with him submit her menstrual cycle information during shooting.*

Cant wear a maxipad under a thong or tight dress, sweetcheeks!

 

*I joke, but it wouldnt surprise me if true

post #7114 of 7538
Well there's a puzzle I never thought I'd find myself unable to stop trying to piece together during my workday.
post #7115 of 7538
The Jedi Master We Need AND Deserve.

post #7116 of 7538

Thanks for the reminder!

post #7117 of 7538

Apologies if this is common knowledge by now, but I just learned about why Rian had JJ swap BB-8/R2 to go with Rey/Chewy at the end of TFA: It all tied into R2 playing Leia's old message to convince Luke to come back.

post #7118 of 7538
I love that scene. “Cheap trick, R2.”
post #7119 of 7538

Rey hits Luke in the back.  "Cheap trick, Rey from Nowhere."

post #7120 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bartleby_Scriven View Post

One of my favorite authors, Jack Graham, jumps into the fray on the question of continuity versus characterization. Been waiting for this one, and it's only part 1!

http://www.eruditorumpress.com/blog/forward-to-the-past-2-episode-1-mind-tricks/

To (ironically, yes) "cut it up into chunks" - in multiple ways, since this is only part 1 - I key in on where he says "A text worth understanding works by gradually building a greater and greater total effect from the progressive development of its elements and their interactions". Only a clueless buffoon would disagree with this statement as a general deal.

Specifically in regards to The Last Jedi though, it reads somewhat as if he is claiming that the state in which we find Luke in The Last Jedi feels like an effect which is "gradually" built. Is Graham claiming that the Luke who gave up on young, underdeveloped family feels like a "progressive development" from the Luke who by the end of the OT knows that you don't even give up on old, horrifically entrenched family?

Because I feel like this is the crux of the matter. It's not a narrative development which plays as gradual or progressive. (Of course it's possible that Luke may have been slowly, gradually faltering, and this would have been extremely powerful if dramatized effectively, but if that was the case then it's not part of the story The Last Jedi dramatizes, and so Luke's story is robbed of that gradualness just as Han's was in The Force Awakens.) It's a MUH-HASSIVE turn for the character and while the aftermath plays beautifully that lack of gradualness causes the key turn itself - the most dramatic, character-defining event in the entire Sequel Trilogy narrative - to land with a dissonant clunk for many, even those of us who are WOKE AF and FEMINIST AF. I mean, I don't even see gender.

Anyway, of course this is just part 1 so maybe he goes there in part 2 or something. I hope so. My dreams would come true if he does.
post #7121 of 7538
Originally Posted by Carnotaur3 View Post
I love that scene. “Cheap trick, R2.”
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

Rey hits Luke in the back.  "Cheap trick, Rey from Nowhere."

 

Luke wants to hear "I Want You To Want Me."   "Cheap Trick, Alexa."

post #7122 of 7538

My theory on why 3PO could see Luke was because Luke wanted to say good bye to a friend.


Edited by Chaz - 1/12/18 at 5:22pm
post #7123 of 7538
Chaz knows what's up

It would just be mean to keep 3PO out of the loop!
post #7124 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post


It would just be mean to keep 3PO out of the loop!

 

Yeah!  Like if, after his best friend ever died, Chewie just walked right past his bestie's estranged wife without acknowle-

 

 

Oh.

post #7125 of 7538
Well yeah, under the shitty director that happened.
post #7126 of 7538

Its true! Let it be known that I am a huge fan of Last Jedi and could care less about 3P0 seeing Luke's projection. I mean, jesus, really?

post #7127 of 7538

"Do Androids See Force-Projected Luke?" by Phil Dick

post #7128 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by neil spurn View Post
 

Its true! Let it be known that I am a huge fan of Last Jedi and could care less about 3P0 seeing Luke's projection. I mean, jesus, really?

 

Yes, if this is what ruins the movie's conceit for you, you are better off never watching movies for the rest of your life. 

post #7129 of 7538
this will only fuel stale's HATE!!
post #7130 of 7538

Stale, don't hate, when you can LUV TARS, LUV

post #7131 of 7538
Good parts were GREAT, bad parts were BLERGH.
 
"I'm bad now I'm good now I'm bad anyway I don't care" - Benicio Del Toro
post #7132 of 7538

 I believe that DJ's didn't care about good and bad, only about himself. His motivation was constant.

 

The dude working the six pack shop where I bought my 12 pack of PBR isn't a fan of TLJ. His beef is that the villains aren't well developed. Personally I like that Snoke was offed to make way for Kylo because he is the more interesting character. He didn't hate the movie, he just didn't like it.

post #7133 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chaz View Post
 

 I believe that DJ's didn't care about good and bad, only about himself. His motivation was constant.

 

RATIONAL SELF-INTEREST taken to an extreme!

post #7134 of 7538
The Last Jedi?
So good.
post #7135 of 7538
Take Benicio out of this movie and you only have half a Star Wars movie.

Star Wars just ain't Star Wars without a rapscallion in the mix.
post #7136 of 7538

DJ has one interesting scene, and that's the one where he illustrates to Finn that the evil rich people Finn suddenly hates are helping the Resistance as well as the First Order.  The movie then does nothing with that idea.

 

Beyond that... I think the character's a bit of a waste.

post #7137 of 7538
I don't think that idea is wasted. It just serves the purpose for Finn's arc and no more past that... because any more exploration of that idea would lead the story further astray on top of a sequence people already find to be a digression.

It's merely a culmination of Finn learning about how good and bad is more complicated than he thinks, but in the end he still needs to dedicate himself to a cause.

And despite what DJ teaches him, Finn decides that DJ is wrong.

I think it's a parallel to Luke's teachings about the Force. There needs to be a balance between light and dark... but that doesn't mean there needs to be some kind of parity between what is right and what is wrong.

Yeah, both sides deal with the military industrial complex... but is there any question of who is in the moral right in these star war movies?

And that's what Finn lands on in his last exchange with DJ.

(shrug) maybe?


I appreciated DJ's role in the movie more upon rewatches.

Would it be interesting to expand on the idea more? Sure, but then Last Jedi would be a very different movie... which may be what you wanted to begin with. Which is fair!
post #7138 of 7538
New information isn't relevant to a character arc if it doesn't have meaning to the character. The way a story shows us that something has meaning to a character is that it changes the moral behaviour/direction of the character. Otherwise the information is either a plot point or a world-building one.

Does anything Benicio (or Rose) shows Finn regarding the hob-nobbers at Canto Bight change his track? (Does it even affect the plot?) Or does the mission and Finn's moral behaviour proceed in much the same way after Benicio reveals the nature of the Canto Bight scum as it had before?

Before: Finn desperately wants to wreck the hyperspace tracker to protect the Rebel fleet.
After: Finn desperately wants to wreck the hyperspace tracker to protect the Rebel fleet.

Does Finn really have a meaningful personal arc in the film at all?
post #7139 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

I don't think that idea is wasted. It just serves the purpose for Finn's arc and no more past that... because any more exploration of that idea would lead the story further astray on top of a sequence people already find to be a digression.

It's merely a culmination of Finn learning about how good and bad is more complicated than he thinks, but in the end he still needs to dedicate himself to a cause.

And despite what DJ teaches him, Finn decides that DJ is wrong.

I think it's a parallel to Luke's teachings about the Force. There needs to be a balance between light and dark... but that doesn't mean there needs to be some kind of parity between what is right and what is wrong.

Yeah, both sides deal with the military industrial complex... but is there any question of who is in the moral right in these star war movies?

And that's what Finn lands on in his last exchange with DJ.

(shrug) maybe?


I appreciated DJ's role in the movie more upon rewatches.

Would it be interesting to expand on the idea more? Sure, but then Last Jedi would be a very different movie... which may be what you wanted to begin with. Which is fair!


This post makes it sound so good and compelling!

post #7140 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bucho View Post

New information isn't relevant to a character arc if it doesn't have meaning to the character. The way a story shows us that something has meaning to a character is that it changes the moral behaviour/direction of the character. Otherwise the information is either a plot point or a world-building one.

Does anything Benicio (or Rose) shows Finn regarding the hob-nobbers at Canto Bight change his track? (Does it even affect the plot?) Or does the mission and Finn's moral behaviour proceed in much the same way after Benicio reveals the nature of the Canto Bight scum as it had before?

Before: Finn desperately wants to wreck the hyperspace tracker to protect the Rebel fleet.
After: Finn desperately wants to wreck the hyperspace tracker to protect the Rebel fleet.

Does Finn really have a meaningful personal arc in the film at all?


I think you're misinterpreting Finn's motivations.

 

Before: Finn wants to wreck the hyperspace tracker because he thinks its the best way to keep Rey safe. He doesn't really care about the Resistance beyond its ability to help him help Rey, and while it's being tracked that ability is non-existent.

After: Finn wants to wreck the hyperspace tracker to protect the Resistance because he's come to realize that the Resistance is worth protecting in and of itself.

post #7141 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Freeman View Post


This post makes it sound so good and compelling!

I know! The movie makes me WANT to do its homework!!!
post #7142 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fafhrd View Post

I think you're misinterpreting Finn's motivations.

Before: Finn wants to wreck the hyperspace tracker because he thinks its the best way to keep Rey safe. He doesn't really care about the Resistance beyond its ability to help him help Rey, and while it's being tracked that ability is non-existent.
After: Finn wants to wreck the hyperspace tracker to protect the Resistance because he's come to realize that the Resistance is worth protecting in and of itself.

I don't remember anything in this film which backs up any claim that Finn doesn't really care about the Resistance. What this film does show us is simply that he believes their fleet is doomed due to hyperspace tracking and that while he is helpless to prevent that, he is not helpless in terms of what he might do to protect Rey.

As soon as he finds out he may actually not be helpless when it comes to protecting the fleet - via an option which, by the way, seems far more dangerous than the option to simply save Rey - he jumps at it with zero hesitation.
post #7143 of 7538
He just doesn't want to be electrocuted by Rose anymore!

She controls all the escape pods!!

RATIONAL SELF-INTEREST
post #7144 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

I don't think that idea is wasted. It just serves the purpose for Finn's arc and no more past that... because any more exploration of that idea would lead the story further astray on top of a sequence people already find to be a digression.

It's merely a culmination of Finn learning about how good and bad is more complicated than he thinks, but in the end he still needs to dedicate himself to a cause.

And despite what DJ teaches him, Finn decides that DJ is wrong.

I think it's a parallel to Luke's teachings about the Force. There needs to be a balance between light and dark... but that doesn't mean there needs to be some kind of parity between what is right and what is wrong.

Yeah, both sides deal with the military industrial complex... but is there any question of who is in the moral right in these star war movies?

And that's what Finn lands on in his last exchange with DJ.

(shrug) maybe?


I appreciated DJ's role in the movie more upon rewatches.

Would it be interesting to expand on the idea more? Sure, but then Last Jedi would be a very different movie... which may be what you wanted to begin with. Which is fair!


I agree-- Lando Del Toro's cynicism is the kind of thing that comes cheap (there's bad on both sides!) if you're only out for personal profit, or don't want the responsibility of making some ultimate value judgement. I don't think they illustrated Finn coming to this conclusion himself especially well, though.

It also doesn't help that Lando Del Toro practically hangs a lantern on the recursive and pointless nature of these new movies with his "they blow you up today, you blow them up tomorrow" line.
post #7145 of 7538
SO META!!!

I would agree that the dramatization of Finn becoming righteous for the cause wasn't particularly forceful.

The movie just tries to do so much!
post #7146 of 7538
I think RATIONAL SELF-INTEREST is the title of the book collection of Disney Wars executive PowerPoint presentations they're coming out with this fall.
post #7147 of 7538
SO META!!!

truly artist-driven works!
post #7148 of 7538
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcnooj82 View Post

He just doesn't want to be electrocuted by Rose anymore!

She controls all the escape pods!!

RATIONAL SELF-INTEREST

CUTE IDEA!

If only somebody had told John Boyega to play it that way.
post #7149 of 7538
he's always just so excited!!!
post #7150 of 7538
Just so excited at no more tasing!!!
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