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Mac G5: The World's fastest personal computer...

post #1 of 62
6/23/03 at 5:34pm
Thread Starter 
read and weep...

<img src="http://www.iceforest.com/images/g5001_800x600.jpg" alt="" />

Apple Unleashes the World’s Fastest Personal Computer—the Power Mac G5

First 64-bit Desktop Processor; First 1 GHz Front-Side Bus

WWDC 2003, San Francisco—June 23, 2003—Apple® today unleashed the world’s fastest* personal computer—the Power Mac® G5—featuring the world’s first 64-bit desktop processor and the industry’s first 1 GHz front-side bus. Powered by the revolutionary PowerPC G5 processor designed by IBM and Apple, the Power Mac G5 is the first personal computer to utilize 64-bit processing technology for unprecedented memory expansion (up to 8GB) and advanced 64-bit computation, while running existing 32-bit applications natively.

“The 64-bit revolution has begun and the personal computer will never be the same again,” said Steve Jobs, Apple’s CEO. “The new Power Mac G5 combines the world’s first 64-bit desktop processor, the industry’s first 1 GHz front-side bus, and up to 8GB of memory to beat the fastest Pentium 4 and dual Xeon-based systems in industry-standard benchmarks and real-world professional applications.”

Delivering the industry’s highest system bandwidth, the Power Mac G5 line offers dual 2.0 GHz PowerPC G5 processors, each with an independent 1 GHz front-side bus, for an astounding 16 GBps of bandwidth. The line also features the industry’s highest bandwidth memory (400 MHz 128-bit DDR SDRAM with throughput up to 6.4 GBps); the industry’s fastest PCI interface available on a desktop (133 MHz PCI-X); and cutting-edge AGP 8X Pro graphics capabilities, all within a stunning new professional aluminum enclosure featuring innovative computer-controlled cooling for quiet operation.

The PowerPC G5 processor is a result of the strategic relationship between Apple and IBM. At frequencies up to 2 GHz, the PowerPC G5 introduces 64-bit processing technology to desktop computing, while also running 32-bit applications natively. The PowerPC G5 processor architecture is based on a completely new execution core that features massively parallel computation for an unprecedented 215 in-flight instructions, full symmetric multi-processing, two double precision floating point units and an optimized Velocity Engine™. The PowerPC G5 chips are fabricated in IBM’s $3 billion state-of-the-art semiconductor facility in East Fishkill, N.Y.

The new Power Mac G5 is the world’s fastest personal computer based on SPEC® CPU 2000 benchmark results and leading professional application performance tests when compared against 3.0 GHz Pentium 4-based systems and 3.06 GHz Dual Xeon-based systems:

In the SPEC CPU 2000 independent testing comparing the Power Mac G5 against leading 3.0 GHz Pentium 4-based systems and 3.06 GHz Dual Xeon-based systems, the Power Mac G5 won three out of four key benchmark tests. All tests were run with the same industry standard GCC 3.3 compiler to insure a fair comparison;
Single processor tests results show the Power Mac G5 an impressive 21 percent faster than the 3.0 GHz Pentium 4-based PC on SPECfp_base2000, which measures single processor floating point performance, and 10 percent slower on SPECint_base2000, which measures single processor integer performance; and
Dual processor tests results, which determine the fastest personal computer since dual processor systems are faster than single processor systems, are a clean sweep with the Power Mac G5 beating the 3.06 GHz Dual Xeon workstations by an incredible 41 percent on SPECfp_rate_base2000, which measures the total floating point throughput of the system, and edging out the same system by three percent on SPECint_rate_base2000, which measures total integer computation throughput.

In addition to outperforming Pentium 4- and Dual Xeon-based systems in industry-standard benchmarks, the Power Mac G5 ran significantly faster than Pentium 4 and Dual Xeon-based systems on performance tests of the most popular applications for creative professionals:

On a test of 45 commonly used actions, Adobe Photoshop ran twice as fast on the Power Mac G5 than on 3.06 GHz Dual Xeon workstations;
Logic Audio on the Power Mac G5 can play nearly 40 percent more tracks with reverbs applied than Cubase SX running on a 3.06 GHz Dual Xeon workstation; and
Genentech Blast runs up to five times faster on a Power Mac G5 than on a 3.06 GHz Dual Xeon workstation.

Complementing its computational power, the Power Mac G5 provides leading-edge expansion with dual 1.5 Gbps serial ATA interfaces; the industry’s fastest PCI interface available on a desktop with a 133 MHz and two 100 MHz, 64-bit PCI-X slots; and AGP 8X Pro graphics capable of supporting the power and thermal demands of high-end professional graphics cards. The Power Mac G5 comes standard with either the NVIDIA GeForceFX 5200 or the ATI Radeon 9600 Pro graphics card. As a build-to-order option for unprecedented 3D design, visualization and gaming, the Power Mac G5 line also features the ATI Radeon 9800 Pro—a workstation-class graphics card featuring per pixel and vertex shaders, and providing an astonishing fill rate of 3 billion textured pixels/second.

The Power Mac G5 delivers industry-leading connectivity and high-performance I/O for creative professionals with Gigabit Ethernet, FireWire® 800, two FireWire 400 ports, three USB 2.0 ports, dual display support, optical digital audio input and output, analog audio input and output and a headphone jack. The system also supports 54 Mbps AirPort® Extreme wireless networking and is Bluetooth ready for wireless connections to a host of Bluetooth-enabled peripherals.

The Power Mac G5 features a stunning new anodized aluminum alloy enclosure, designed to meet the needs of the most demanding professionals. The new enclosure is built around four independently controlled thermal zones for advanced airflow management, with fans in each zone that are individually controlled based on a sophisticated combination of thermal and power monitoring, resulting in the Power Mac G5 running two times quieter than the previous Power Mac G4. The G5 enclosure also features an easy-to-open access panel allowing quick access to internal components for tool-less installation of memory, hard drives, optical drives or an AirPort Extreme card. Front and rear handles allow professionals to rapidly and safely move Power Mac G5s when and where they need them, and front-mounted FireWire, USB2, and headphone ports provide convenient access for popular peripherals.

Pricing & Availability
The Power Mac G5, with a suggested retail price of $2,999 (US), includes:

Dual 2.0 GHz 64-bit PowerPC G5;
Dual Independent 1 GHz front-side buses;
512MB 400 MHz Dual Channel (128-bit) DDR;
8 DIMMs, 8GB maximum memory;
160GB Serial ATA hard drive;
AGP 8X Pro graphics slot;
RADEON 9600 Pro-64MB DDR;
3 PCI-X slots (one 64-bit 133 MHz, two 64-bit 100 MHz); and
4x SuperDrive™.

The Power Mac G5, with a suggested retail price of $2,399 (US), includes:

1.8 GHz 64-bit PowerPC G5;
900 MHz front-side bus;
512MB 400 MHz Dual Channel (128-bit) DDR;
8 DIMMs, 8GB maximum memory;
160GB Serial ATA hard drive;
AGP 8X Pro graphics slot;
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra-64MB DDR;
3 PCI-X slots (one 64-bit, 133 MHz, two 64-bit 100 MHz); and
4x SuperDrive.

The Power Mac G5, with a suggested retail price of $1,999 (US), includes:

1.6 GHz 64-bit PowerPC G5;
800 MHz front-side bus;
256MB 333 MHz Dual Channel (128-bit) DDR;
4 DIMMs, 4GB maximum memory;
80GB Serial ATA hard drive;
AGP 8X Pro graphics slot;
NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200 Ultra-64MB DDR;
3 PCI slots (64-bit, 33 MHz); and
4x SuperDrive.

The Power Mac G5 line will be available in August and will ship with Mac® OS X “Jaguar” with Mail, iChat™, Safari™, Sherlock®, Address Book, QuickTime®, iLife™ (includes iTunes®, iPhoto™, iMovie™, and iDVD™), iSync, iCal™, DVD Player, Classic environment, Acrobat Reader, Art Directors Toolkit, EarthLink, FAXstf, FileMaker Pro Trial, GraphicConverter, Microsoft Internet Explorer, Microsoft Office v. X Test Drive, OmniGraffle, OmniOutliner, QuickBooks for Mac New User Edition and Developer Tools.

The Power Mac G5 will be available in build-to-order configurations through the Apple Store® (www.apple.com). Options include up to 8GB of RAM, 250GB hard drives, Combo drive, graphics cards (NVIDIA GeForce FX 5200, ATI Radeon 9600, ATI Radeon 9800), AirPort Extreme Card, Bluetooth module and an Apple Fibre Channel PCI Card.

* “World's fastest” based on SPEC CPU 2000 benchmark results and leading professional application performance tests against 3 GHz Pentium 4-based Dell Dimension 8300 and 3.06 GHz Dual Xeon-based Dell Precision 650. SPEC CPU 2000 benchmarks run with GCC 3.3 and independently tested; professional applications tested by Apple, June 2003.

Apple ignited the personal computer revolution in the 1970s with the Apple II and reinvented the personal computer in the 1980s with the Macintosh. Apple is committed to bringing the best personal computing experience to students, educators, creative professionals and consumers around the world through its innovative hardware, software and Internet offerings.
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post #2 of 62
6/23/03 at 5:53pm
Yes, but will it play Half-Life 2?
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post #3 of 62
6/23/03 at 5:54pm
*orgasm*

Though I'll probably wait a year or so to upgrade as I'm poor and my G4 still runs beautifully, I WANT ONE NOW.
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post #4 of 62
6/23/03 at 5:56pm
Droool.
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post #5 of 62
6/23/03 at 5:59pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Scott Roche:
Droool.
you're always drooling....

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post #6 of 62
6/23/03 at 6:02pm
It's a glandular problem, okay.

No but seriously, I want this thing. I don't need it at all but I want it. We will be purchasing a Mac this year. Hopefully this will drive the lower end Macs down price wise.
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post #7 of 62
6/23/03 at 6:03pm
It's a Mac.

EDIT: It looks like a big speaker. Lemme guess, there's a cheese grater on the other side.

Who am I kidding? I want it!

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post #8 of 62
6/23/03 at 6:14pm
Whether you like Macs or not, those are some damn impressive numbers.
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post #9 of 62
6/23/03 at 6:17pm
Quote:
Gio Angles & Han Solo:
Yes, but will it play Half-Life 2?
It runs Quake III Arena, 1024x768 at 337fps. I think it can handle HL2.
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post #10 of 62
6/23/03 at 6:44pm
I love the case too. It looks like aluminum, therefore it'd look great swirl anodized.
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post #11 of 62
6/24/03 at 2:03am
Great. Now my G3 iMac looks even MORE like a toy.

I also need to wash these pants. They had a good two days left in em, too...
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post #12 of 62
6/24/03 at 7:43am
Quote:
Gio Angles & Han Solo:
Yes, but will it play Half-Life 2?
This thing will run Windows 2K and XP Pro better than a PC...inside a window even...

Yes, I can imagine it'll run the hell out of HL2.
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post #13 of 62
6/24/03 at 8:39am
But you guys are missing the most impressive part: it comes with an internal 56K modem!

Do people still use those, and are they too cheap to fork down 20$ just to purchase one?

I've been waiting a long time to see dual-processors become the standard in PCs. Many years ago, they 'put' Windows on a processor, and had the other processor handle everything else. Basically, Windows would boot up within a very few short seconds, and functioned a lot like the version of Windows that's available on IPaqs, and the such. With the cheap price of low end processors, I never understood why they couldn't just use those to follow through on the idea of having Windows on a chip, rather than on your hard drive.
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post #14 of 62
6/24/03 at 10:42am
It's funny. It's the fastest computer from the slowest company to come to a realization that their market share is still shrinking and the price gap between them and their competitors is growing.
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post #15 of 62
6/24/03 at 12:09pm
But... but... I see Macs in all the movies! They must be better if celebrities use them!
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post #16 of 62
6/24/03 at 12:15pm
I personally would never buy a Mac, not unless I had to do work on one. Other than that, I can't see where it's better than a PC.
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post #17 of 62
6/24/03 at 12:29pm
Wether they are better or not is of course every bit as subjective as opinions on movies. For instance I think Hulk is a better movie than X2. THe thing for me is that they are different for one and they also embrace new technology (especially new moviemaking tech) much more quickly than PC's. Things like Firewire, USB, DVD-R's, and excellent graphics capability make this a movie maker's friend.
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post #18 of 62
6/24/03 at 1:34pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
You're making Verbal angry:
I personally would never buy a Mac, not unless I had to do work on one. Other than that, I can't see where it's better than a PC.
What is the point of having the fastest chip out there (the Pentium 4) if my operating system is always crashing.

Btw, I have no problem with AMD and Intel (if Apple wanted to install them,better yet), what I have a problem is with Windows XP (or any other of their OSs) and it's system architecture.

I also see no point in investing $3000+ on a mac to surf the net. I rather buy a $400 wintel eMachine if that were the case.

Most people that are into professional/amatuer editing or graphic design use macs (although you can use a wintel machine) use it for its ease and dependabilty. It's fucking frustrating editing or designing shit at 1am and have a window poping up and saying I accidentally erased an .dll .orwhoknowwhatthefuckdosfile when i removed a program.
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post #19 of 62
6/24/03 at 1:42pm
Quote:
Micah Robinson:
It's funny. It's the fastest computer from the slowest company to come to a realization that their market share is still shrinking and the price gap between them and their competitors is growing.
Cheaper is not always better. And I would imagine if you built/bought a machine that stacked up against this one AND got it to work properly it wouldn't be any cheaper.
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post #20 of 62
6/24/03 at 1:44pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Micah Robinson:
It's funny. It's the fastest computer from the slowest company to come to a realization that their market share is still shrinking and the price gap between them and their competitors is growing.
Well, Ferrari doesn't even own 1% of the market share, and yet that very small percentage keeps them alive.

I like a company that makes PCs for a small percentage of the population, and not some PC everyone in the block has (this doesn't not mean I like Apple's marketing strategy). I don't mind paying for for exclusivity [sp?] and neither do Apple's clients as long as the product is good.

I think they've known for the longest time that they will never conquer the market share (since the stupidly revoke their OS licenses to PC manufactuers in the late 90s).
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post #21 of 62
6/24/03 at 1:49pm
If you don't think the Mac OS will lock up or give its own version of The Blue Screen of Death, then you've never used a Mac before. One of our designers is cussing a blue streak right this very minute because her precious Mac is locked up tighter than a Baptist on a first date.

EDIT:

Apparently Apple isn't above fudging a few numbers either. A report released today states:

-Apple/Veritest used a special fast malloc library on the G5 benchmark, but did not use it on the Dell/Intel benchmark, thus giving the G5 an unfair advantage.
-Apple/Veritest crippled floating-point on the Intel CPU's by not using SSE2.
-For both the Dell Dimension 8300 and the Dell Precision 650, Apple/Veritest performed the multi-processor "Rate" benchmarks with hyperthreading DISABLED. They had hyperthreading ENABLED for the single-processor benchmarks, but DISABLED for the multi-processor benchmarks, despite the fact that hyperthreading would have improved the performance of the multi-processor "Rate" benchmarks, while having little or no effect on the single-processor benchmarks. In either case, this performance-enhancing feature of the Intel processors should not have been disabled.

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post #22 of 62
6/24/03 at 1:56pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
If you don't think the Mac OS will lock up or give its own version of The Blue Screen of Death, then you've never used a Mac before. One of our designers is cussing a blue streak right this very minute because her precious Mac is locked up tighter than a Baptist on a first date.
i never said they would not lock, shit I could crash a linux box (been there, done that 3 times), it just happens L-E-S-S, very less often. If she's using os9 (the equivalent of the dreadful windows 98), tell her to UPGRADE.
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post #23 of 62
6/24/03 at 2:04pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Jacob Singer:
If you don't think the Mac OS will lock up or give its own version of The Blue Screen of Death, then you've never used a Mac before. One of our designers is cussing a blue streak right this very minute because her precious Mac is locked up tighter than a Baptist on a first date.

EDIT:

Apparently Apple isn't above fudging a few numbers either. A report released today states:

-Apple/Veritest used a special fast malloc library on the G5 benchmark, but did not use it on the Dell/Intel benchmark, thus giving the G5 an unfair advantage.
-Apple/Veritest crippled floating-point on the Intel CPU's by not using SSE2.
-For both the Dell Dimension 8300 and the Dell Precision 650, Apple/Veritest performed the multi-processor "Rate" benchmarks with hyperthreading DISABLED. They had hyperthreading ENABLED for the single-processor benchmarks, but DISABLED for the multi-processor benchmarks, despite the fact that hyperthreading would have improved the performance of the multi-processor "Rate" benchmarks, while having little or no effect on the single-processor benchmarks. In either case, this performance-enhancing feature of the Intel processors should not have been disabled.
Yes, you're probably quoting the below article.

<a href="http://www.haxial.com/spls-soapbox/apple-powermac-G5/" target="_blank">article</a>

which, has some truth to it, but not in regards to Apple lying. They claim to have the fastest PC not the fastest SERVER.
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post #24 of 62
6/24/03 at 2:06pm
I'd love to run a Pro-tools system on that thing...

...power.
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post #25 of 62
6/24/03 at 2:29pm
Just to clarify, I don't have anything against Macs, other than their obnoxious, condescending marketing campaigns. I use them every day. A good computer and OS is a good computer and OS, no matter which company makes it. I just think that there's a sort of Urban Myth going around that Macs are these holy flawless godsends sent from above and that Windows pc's are data-destroying monstrosities from hell. It just ain't so.
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post #26 of 62
6/24/03 at 3:06pm
Quote:
Scott Roche:
Cheaper is not always better. And I would imagine if you built/bought a machine that stacked up against this one AND got it to work properly it wouldn't be any cheaper.
Actually, it would, and would get cheaper and cheaper as time wore on, whereas this will remain pricey and underpurchased.

Case in point: The cheapest Mac G4 I can buy now is $800, and that's for a paltry 800MHZ, 40GB HD, and 128MB of RAM with a built-in monitor....through mail order.

For the same price, I could get a P4 2.4 GHZ machine with 512MB of much better RAM, a vastly superior video card, a faster 80GB HD, a faster CD-RW that burns AND a sepatare DVD drive, and a better AND bigger monitor right around the corner from where I live.

It also has all the requisite firewire and USB 2.0 connections the Mac has, plus better video outs with the superior video card.
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post #27 of 62
6/24/03 at 3:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Jacob Singer
[QB]Just to clarify, I don't have anything against Macs, other than their obnoxious, condescending marketing campaigns. [QB]
Now, why would anyone get that impression?
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post #28 of 62
6/24/03 at 3:12pm
Quote:
Nelson Tyoominaduh:
Well, Ferrari doesn't even own 1% of the market share, and yet that very small percentage keeps them alive.
</strong>

And non-existent to the vast majority of drivers, and even among those that can afford them, many decide to get more practical and value-featured vehicles.

Quote:
I like a company that makes PCs for a small percentage of the population, and not some PC everyone in the block has (this doesn't not mean I like Apple's marketing strategy). I don't mind paying for for exclusivity [sp?] and neither do Apple's clients as long as the product is good.
</strong>

That's funny. What's exclusive to Macs? Itunes? Coming to Windows. Ipods? Windows. Any software packages that don't have an exact functional equivalent on PCs? Nope. Widescreen monitors? Pcs have 'em too. Useless one-buttom mouses? You can have 'em.

Quote:
I think they've known for the longest time that they will never conquer the market share (since the stupidly revoke their OS licenses to PC manufactuers in the late 90s).
Yes, but they need to continue to have enough market share simply to guarantee their survival, not to excel. Only because PCs aren't gunning for music and graphic design markets is it that they don't run those market segments. And as a musicians who produces very professional, self-produced and performed recordings, I can tell you that PCs are more than up to the task.
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post #29 of 62
6/24/03 at 3:32pm
A Mac vs. PC debate....awesome!

I've used a PC since I was around 5-6 years old, I've been through all the operating systems, DOS, Windows 3.1, 95, 98, ME, 2000, XP. Windows is still a horrible, fucked-up, resource-hogging OS, but XP is a big improvement.

And being a 'hardcore' PC user, as I am, that means running Windows. Because 99% of new, high performance hardware and drivers for that hardware are for the Windows PC. Now, I am not TOO familiar with the design of the latest Macs, but how much hardware modification do they allow for? From the looks of the recent iMacs, none. Or do you need to send your machine to some kind of authorized Mac repair center for any hardware upgrades? I am always altering, swapping out, adding new hardware to my PC.

As far as software goes, there's no question. As a gamer, running Windows is the only option. A few games get ported to Mac every year, most of the time way after their PC counterpart is released. Very little Mac-unique games are released, but I do recognize the contributions of Bungie (the Marathon series) in the past. Besides games, most all rudiemntary utilities and programs related to all the weird shit I do (cd burning, ripping, virtual drive emulation, encoding) are for Windows.

Now, there is a specific market of appeal for Mac computers, that is those people that want an extremely limited, but secure and uncomplicated (at least for rudimentary tasks...I've never gone into the murky depths of the operating system, for stuff such as complex hard drive management, system properties, that kind of thing) OS, that is capable of running the extremely small amount of software they require.

So, with all that said, the 'power' of this new system can absolutely not be compared to a PC at all. Fundamental differences on so many levels in the hardware and OS make them incomparable, but if you want to try to compare them based on benchmarks of various Adobe programs, fine. Not that you could even fairly do that, due to the differences in cost/clocked number of gigahertz/ actual performance of the processors and the fact that you can upgrade your PC at will.

The attitude of Mac users and the condescending, baffling Mac advertisements don't bother me, sincee most people in the world are assholes already and all advertising is manipulative and misleading. It's nothing to get to worked up over, much like this Mac vs. PC debate. I just wanted to try to make it clearer what each platofrm really can and can't do. Oh, and one button mouses? Give me a fucking break.
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post #30 of 62
6/24/03 at 3:33pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Micah Robinson:
Quote:
Scott Roche:
Cheaper is not always better. And I would imagine if you built/bought a machine that stacked up against this one AND got it to work properly it wouldn't be any cheaper.
Actually, it would, and would get cheaper and cheaper as time wore on, whereas this will remain pricey and underpurchased.

Case in point: The cheapest Mac G4 I can buy now is $800, and that's for a paltry 800MHZ, 40GB HD, and 128MB of RAM with a built-in monitor....through mail order.

For the same price, I could get a P4 2.4 GHZ machine with 512MB of much better RAM, a vastly superior video card, a faster 80GB HD, a faster CD-RW that burns AND a sepatare DVD drive, and a better AND bigger monitor right around the corner from where I live.

It also has all the requisite firewire and USB 2.0 connections the Mac has, plus better video outs with the superior video card.
Yet the people that buy each of those computers would need them for different purposes. Why would someone need a P4 2.4GHz to surf the web? Why would someone need that kind of power when 800MHz can burn a cd fast enough with a 24X cd-writer. Power for the purpose of what?

It's like driving a 540hp Porsche in a traffic jam. A 2.4GHz won't make the web faster (as the Intel Alien commercials would make you believe). Those lowend Macs, by what I've seen, are used by secretaires, receptionist, and writers.

Your setup is good for games (with slight mods). But you still have to buy the software to edit pictures and video (photoshop $899 retail, permiere $799 retail, cd/dvd buring program $99), on top of that you have to install anti-virus protection software (99.999% of viruses out there love and work perfectly in the windows environment) and utility software (why buy a program that is suppose to keep your system stable?) I browse the net a lot, so I don't like popup windows that much, I have to buy a pop-ad blocker.

So much for savings.

My mac comes with native software that does that stuff.
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post #31 of 62
6/24/03 at 3:41pm
Quote:
Nelson Tyoominaduh:
Yet the people that buy each of those computers would need them for different purposes. Why would someone need a P4 2.4GHz to surf the web? Why would someone need that kind of power when 800MHz can burn a cd fast enough with a 24X cd-writer. Power for the purpose of what?

It's like driving a 540hp Porsche in a traffic jam. A 2.4GHz won't make the web faster (as the Intel Alien commercials would make you believe). Those lowend Macs, by what I've seen, are used by secretaires, receptionist, and writers.
</strong>

Then, you could get a Wintel machine that does all that for less than HALF of the $800, and probably even better if you buy in bulk as businesses - which are Wintel all of the way unless they do graphic design or Mac-specific programming - do.

Either way, Wintel is better for less.

Quote:
Your setup is good for games (with slight mods). But you still have to buy the software to edit pictures and video (photoshop $899 retail, permiere $799 retail, cd/dvd buring program $99), on top of that you have to install anti-virus protection software (99.999% of viruses out there love and work perfectly in the windows environment) and utility software (why buy a program that is suppose to keep your system stable?) I browse the net a lot, so I don't like popup windows that much, I have to buy a pop-ad blocker.

So much for savings.

My mac comes with native software that does that stuff.
I guess you haven't seen a Wintel machine lately.

You get all of that with the machine. Windows XP has the video and picture editing software already. The disc burner comes with a functional bundle (with Nero, in most cases). I don't know of a single burner that doesn't have a software bundle with it. Virus protection is indeed extra...$50 extra, and rightfully so since Wintel - being the vastly more utilized machine has the superior catalog of viruses to infect it. You don't have to buy a pop-up ad blocker either, as there are a number of fully functional free ones.

As for utility software...huh? A few people may buy Norton Systemworks, but it's far from neccesary. I've never used utility software in my life, and have never needed to.

Still the better product for much less for virtually any situation.
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post #32 of 62
6/24/03 at 3:45pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Micah Robinson:

That's funny. What's exclusive to Macs? Itunes? Coming to Windows. Ipods? Windows. Any software packages that don't have an exact functional equivalent on PCs? Nope. Widescreen monitors? Pcs have 'em too. Useless one-buttom mouses? You can have 'em.
The Operating System. Most of the fuctionality that appears in Windows was either stolen or borrwed from... guess who? Microsoft was sued by Apple for basically ripping off major functionally and/or human factor issues from the Apple OS.

I like to stick with a company that is known for innovation. I happened to be a designer, photographer and video editor, and I can't afford to wait around for someone to invent the windows equivalent of <a href="http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/" target="_blank">Final Cut Pro 4</a>.
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post #33 of 62
6/24/03 at 3:56pm
Quote:
Nelson Tyoominaduh:
The Operating System. Most of the fuctionality that appears in Windows was either stolen or borrwed from... guess who? Microsoft was sued by Apple for basically ripping off major functionally and/or human factor issues from the Apple OS.
</strong>

Who, in turn, got them from Xerox, and yadda yadda. Neither innovated the desktop concept.

Quote:
I like to stick with a company that is known for innovation. I happened to be a designer, photographer and video editor, and I can't afford to wait around for someone to invent the windows equivalent of <a href="http://www.apple.com/finalcutpro/" target="_blank">Final Cut Pro 4</a>.
WHo said you have to wait?

<a href="http://www.creativepro.com/story/news/19256.html" target="_blank">http://www.creativepro.com/story/news/19256.html</a>
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post #34 of 62
6/24/03 at 4:00pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Micah Robinson:
I guess you haven't seen a Wintel machine lately.

You get all of that with the machine. Windows XP has the video and picture editing software already. The disc burner comes with a functional bundle (with Nero, in most cases). I don't know of a single burner that doesn't have a software bundle with it. Virus protection is indeed extra...$50 extra, and rightfully so since Wintel - being the vastly more utilized machine has the superior catalog of viruses to infect it. You don't have to buy a pop-up ad blocker either, as there are a number of fully functional free ones.

As for utility software...huh? A few people may buy Norton Systemworks, but it's far from neccesary. I've never used utility software in my life, and have never needed to.

Still the better product for much less for virtually any situation.
I bought an HP 734n desktop for my girlfriend. It came with MS Office, Norton/McAfee, etc. Only problem: all test programs. Some expire within a couple of months and others expire within a year. And are you honestly going to compare any image/video software made by Adobe to basic software made by Microsoft? Sorry, not MS forte. A OS shouldn't need an external program in this day and age to burn a dvd/cd. Apparently MS caught on and they've now embedded basic media-writing software into their OS. I wonder where they got that idea?

As for upgrading... a lot of gammers I know spend about $300 per month adding stuff to their rigs. That $400 rig they bought ends up being a $4000+ rig. It's like buying a Honda Civic and adding $50,000 of equipment so that it can try and catch up with a Porsche. Why not buy the Porsche to begin with?

And as for shareware, we know the stabilty and dependabilty of installing those on a Wintel or Mac (spyare, adware, unstable code, etc). You actually get what you pay for.
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post #35 of 62
6/24/03 at 4:11pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Micah Robinson:


Who, in turn, got them from Xerox, and yadda yadda. Neither innovated the desktop concept.
Show me lawsuits please. While Zerox was tesing the concept of a mouse interfacing with a desktop (which wasn't TMed), 2 guys made a computer in a garage that featured a mouse. Xerox abandoned the concept of the desktop interface as soon as they saw they were doomed (when the first PC was introduced to the average consumer).
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post #36 of 62
6/24/03 at 4:24pm
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Micah Robinson:
WHo said you have to wait?

<a href="http://www.creativepro.com/story/news/19256.html" target="_blank">http://www.creativepro.com/story/news/19256.html</a>
Now you imagined if I had to wait until April 2003 for MS/WM9 to get their shit together (i'm not saying WM9 sucks)? Some kid with quicktime/sorenson (exclusive to Mac at the time) encoding/compression would've beaten me by... 4 years? For closure, one of my freelance, part-time jobs is encoding/compressing trailers for movie studios, film production studios and then some. Nice little gig that I managed to land some few years ago (so I get to see some trailers before they hit the web).

edit: Nelson, I accidentally posted over this original post when i tried to quote it (danger of being a mod with the ability to edit posts), but it's been restored now.

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post #37 of 62
6/24/03 at 4:38pm
Re: that picture - the world's fastest cheese grater*.

*does not perform optimally with carrots.
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post #38 of 62
6/25/03 at 10:06am
Thread Starter 
Apple responds:

<a href="http://apple.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=03/06/24/2154256" target="_blank">Joswiak added that in the Intel modifications for the tests, they chose the option that provided higher scores for the Intel machine, not lower. The scores were higher under Linux than under Windows, and in the rate test, the scores were higher with hyperthreading disabled than enabled. He also said they would be happy to do the tests on Windows and with hyperthreading enabled, if people wanted it, as it would only make the G5 look better. </a>
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post #39 of 62
6/25/03 at 10:52am
Quote:
Nelson Tyoominaduh:
I bought an HP 734n desktop for my girlfriend. It came with MS Office, Norton/McAfee, etc. Only problem: all test programs. Some expire within a couple of months and others expire within a year.
</strong>

I don't know of any temporary versions of Microsoft software, and Norton/McAfee don't expire, but their subscriptions - i.e., the virus updates and cataloguing - DO. They should. They'd never be able to make a new version of their programs if they gave free updates for life in exchange for plopping down a piddly $40.

The real problem, however, is why did you buy a name-brand computer? Waste of money that is, and any shortcoming are the fault of that manufacturer, not the Wintel platform.

Quote:
And are you honestly going to compare any image/video software made by Adobe to basic software made by Microsoft? Sorry, not MS forte. A OS shouldn't need an external program in this day and age to burn a dvd/cd. Apparently MS caught on and they've now embedded basic media-writing software into their OS. I wonder where they got that idea?
</strong>

Oh, so every Apple comes with Photoshop and Final Cut Pro-calibur video and photo editing tools? Why does that Apple link you posted say Final Cut is $1000, then? Who'd pay it if the Macs came with that level of software on their own?

Get real. NO platform is going to have FREE applications that are industry standard professional-level tools.

As for the DVD/CD thing, I COULD use Windows Media to do that, but I much prefer the fuller-featured Nero. It makes no difference that it's not integrated into the OS, except that it's easier to modify and uninstall.

Quote:
As for upgrading... a lot of gammers I know spend about $300 per month adding stuff to their rigs. That $400 rig they bought ends up being a $4000+ rig. It's like buying a Honda Civic and adding $50,000 of equipment so that it can try and catch up with a Porsche. Why not buy the Porsche to begin with?
</strong>

Yeah, right! A $1800 G4 (see, I'm even stepping up the example above to help you out) comes with an ATI Radeon 9000 Pro with 64MB DDR SDRAM in a dedicated AGP 4X graphics slot.

The same $800 Wintel machine I referred to above comes with a Geforce FX 5600 with 128MB of Ram and 8X AGP support. And double the system RAM of an $1800 Mac.

Now, benchmark the two machines on any decent 3D shooter, and let's see which one a gamer prefers.

Apple is no Porsche in the gaming department...more like Range Rover...overpriced, underpreferred gah-bage.

Any gamer who spends "$300 month" on a Wintel machine is a fool. New graphics cards only come out every 6 months or so, and even a 256MB Geforce 5600 is but $180 or so. $300 would buy you a GB of RAM. And a new processor and MB is another $150, tops. So they'd have everything they need to last them at least a year at the top of gaming performance, and 2 years in the competitive middle for a piddly $600 assuming that they did not buy this stuff already when they first got the machine.

Meanwhile, how many gamers are dedicated Mac users? Nothing like a one-button mouse for a FPS shooter....

Quote:
And as for shareware, we know the stabilty and dependabilty of installing those on a Wintel or Mac (spyare, adware, unstable code, etc). You actually get what you pay for.
Wrong. Spybot, AdAware, and miscellaneous pop-up blockers have no viruses and prevent advertising harassment while remaining quite stable. They're also quite free and widespread.

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post #40 of 62
6/25/03 at 11:01am
Micah you really need to get over the one button mouse deal. You can get a two button mouse for a Mac if you want one. And Macs are FAR from garbage. Are they the best? No, but as I said before it is all subjective.
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post #41 of 62
6/25/03 at 11:03am
Oh and (IMO) anyone who still uses a PC or a MAc for games is just silly. I am now a confirmed console geek.
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post #42 of 62
6/25/03 at 11:03am
Quote:
Nelson:
Now you imagined if I had to wait until April 2003 for MS/WM9 to get their shit together (i'm not saying WM9 sucks)? Some kid with quicktime/sorenson (exclusive to Mac at the time) encoding/compression would've beaten me by... 4 years? For closure, one of my freelance, part-time jobs is encoding/compressing trailers for movie studios, film production studios and then some. Nice little gig that I managed to land some few years ago (so I get to see some trailers before they hit the web).
</strong>

People have been using hardware-based Wintel solutions that sidestep these issues for years, but even now, the software situation is more than comparable.

Contrast Final Cut Pro with <a href="http://www.sonicfoundry.com/Products/showproduct.asp?PID=810" target="_blank">this</a> Wintel gem, which also happens to be less expensive.

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post #43 of 62
6/25/03 at 11:06am
Quote:
Scott Roche:
Micah you really need to get over the one button mouse deal. You can get a two button mouse for a Mac if you want one. And Macs are FAR from garbage. Are they the best? No, but as I said before it is all subjective.
I continually harp on that point because Nelson wants to boil it down to what the machines come with, and that's an example of the short-sighted thinking of Apple.

A Mac IS Garbage for gamers. They don't have the selection of PCs, they get patches and releases later than PC gamers typically, and LAN parties and professionally-organized computer game events almost always go Wintel.

For lots of other things, Macs are great.
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post #44 of 62
6/25/03 at 11:09am
Quote:
Scott Roche:
Oh and (IMO) anyone who still uses a PC or a MAc for games is just silly. I am now a confirmed console geek.
Which are useless (currently) for RTS games and online-all-of-the-time games like Everquest.

Also, a keyboard and mouse will always be the superior interface for FPS games in comparison to any console joystick or pad.
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post #45 of 62
6/25/03 at 11:20am
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Micah Robinson:
<strong>I continually harp on that point because Nelson wants to boil it down to what the machines come with, and that's an example of the short-sighted thinking of Apple.</strong>

I see. Well I don't know that it is any more short sighted than a two button mouse. One extra button doesn't add that much feature wise.

<strong>A Mac IS Garbage for gamers. They don't have the selection of PCs, they get patches and releases later than PC gamers typically, and LAN parties and professionally-organized computer game events almost always go Wintel.</strong>

Well certainly but I didn't see anyone saying that they were the best computers for games. Maybe I missed something?

<strong>For lots of other things, Macs are great.</strong>

On that we agree.

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post #46 of 62
6/25/03 at 11:24am
He implied that the Mac was "a Porsche" for gamers, and that needed more than a little debunking.

I don't think Macs suck, but I think Apple needs to join the 21st century and start pricing their products competitively.
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post #47 of 62
6/25/03 at 11:27am
Thread Starter 
Quote:
Micah Robinson:
A Mac IS Garbage for gamers. They don't have the selection of PCs, they get patches and releases later than PC gamers typically, and LAN parties and professionally-organized computer game events almost always go Wintel.

For lots of other things, Macs are great.
Dude, gaming isn't the end-all for computers. just like the 1/4 mile isn't the end-all for autoracing.

Honestly, I persosally don't see computers as entertainment, sure it's one of the perks (and there is ton of money to be made, but people use them for
<a href="http://www.apple.com/pro/" target="_blank">other stuff too</a>.

Oh, and Macs come with authoring software for dvd (iDVD) and editing (iMovie).

Out of curiosity, what percentage of the gaming world uses PCs as opposed to PS2, Xbox, etc?
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post #48 of 62
6/25/03 at 11:33am
[QUOTE]Originally posted by Micah Robinson:
<strong>He implied that the Mac was "a Porsche" for gamers, and that needed more than a little debunking.</strong>

I read that whole Porsche discussion differently.

<strong>I don't think Macs suck, but I think Apple needs to join the 21st century and start pricing their products competitively.</strong>

As someone who is going to buy one before years end I agree.
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post #49 of 62
6/25/03 at 11:52am
Quote:
Nelson Tyoominaduh:
Dude, gaming isn't the end-all for computers. just like the 1/4 mile isn't the end-all for autoracing.

Honestly, I persosally don't see computers as entertainment, sure it's one of the perks (and there is ton of money to be made, but people use them for
<a href="http://www.apple.com/pro/" target="_blank">other stuff too</a>.
</strong>

You're the one who started mentioning "gaming rigs," Nelson in some sort of attempt to illustrate the shortcomings of the Wintel platform. I simply put in my two cents on the issue.

But you can boil it down to any issue. Anything Macs can do PCs can do for much less. There was a time when audio/video professional stuff was definitely Mac country, but no longer. Pro Tools ended it on the audio end, and there are a number of competing professional-grade video packages that can go toe-to-toe with Final Cut Pro.

With that out of the way....it's a level playing field.

Quote:
Oh, and Macs come with authoring software for dvd (iDVD) and editing (iMovie).
</strong>

As does Windows XP with Movie Maker and Windows Media Player, but none of those products are powerful, profeesional-grade applications.

Quote:
Out of curiosity, what percentage of the gaming world uses PCs as opposed to PS2, Xbox, etc?
Can't really get hard data on that simply because PCs do MORE than play games, so it's hard to specifically identify people using theirs for gaming.

But in ceratin genres (I listed 'em above), consoles - even with the massive penetration of Playstations and PS2s - just can't compete with PCs.
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post #50 of 62
6/25/03 at 2:06pm
Quote:
Micah Robinson:
You get all of that with the machine. Windows XP has the video and picture editing software already.
Hahah, if you think Microsoft Movie Maker is a video editing program, you are messed up. That program is pretty much useless. Try that, and then try I-Movie 3, the free video editing program on Macs. You'll see how right I actually am about that.
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