Buffy The Vampire Slayer: Empty Places 4/29/03 - Page 2

I don't think Buffy has become a liability. I think she's become disconnected to the group, but she has a huge responsibilty on her shoulders - protecting a large group of girls that have been marked for death and protecting her friends and her sister that have also been marked for death. And the group is threatened by an evil entity that they cannot hurt or even touch. It's obviously too much for her, and she's buckling under the pressure. That aspect, I like. I believe it. What I didn't like about that last scene was that there was a lot of blame going on and it didn't really seem supported. Anya's speech was nifty and sounded good when she was saying it, but Buffy has proved herself over the bunch of seasons to be something more than just lucky. Willow questioned Buffy's judgement, but where was the appeal to her friend? They all thought Buffy's plan was dumb, but is there another plan? All of the dialog did a good job of playing up the drama, but it didn't make a lot of sense within the context of the actual happenings of the show - which is a mistake that "Buffy" writers do not often make. For example, Wood's "I think Faith had the floor" line. Is he even important enough to have a say in that room? Anyway, I gots complaints. That sucks. These shows should be getting tighter all the time - not sloppier.

Actually, I thought Anya's speech was right on the money. It's Buffy's own damn fault that she has been taking every responsibility in the world on her own shoulders. Her gift, her powers, and her responsibility to the potentials is *exactly* why she shouldn't be the leader. She's lost objectivity. She's reacting blindly, striking out at Caleb whenever she's feeling angry or helpless, and she was putting the others' lives in danger. Anya's speech was just her typically blunt way of saying, "Destiny gave you these powers that have kept you alive for so long, but just because you're strong doesn't mean that you're the person who should be leading us." Made sense to me.

As for Willow--she's stood up to Buffy before when she felt that Buffy was wrong. The living room meeting probably wasn't the ideal place Willow would have chosen to express herself, but it was the potentials--not Willow--who instigated the argument. I didn't see anything out of character there.

And I don't think it was a situation of Faith or Giles or whoever having a BETTER plan than Buffy. They weren't choosing Faith as their leader because they thought that Faith would be a better strategian...it was simply because they no longer trusted Buffy.

I'm with most of the people here. I like the idea, in fact I pretty much figured that was what was going to happen. I could tell at the end of last ep that Buffy's leadership was going to be challenged, in favor of either Faith or Giles. And it's totally reasonable. But the way it played out just didn't seem real. Buffy, with the ridiculous "plan," OK, Caleb clearly is excercising some sort of influence over her, so I'll buy that. Xander, with the "maybe it's to my left," OK, Xander's always been an asshole who's just too anxious to make sarcastic comments, so I'll give him that. Giles, I think he was acting reasonable, but I don't really see Dawn telling Buffy "you have to leave," no matter what she meant. Maybe it would have worked better for me if they had all told her, instead of that she had to leave, just that she was no longer in charge, and then she left in reaction to that.

So what is up with Buffy? I mean, she's got to be under some kind of outside influence, right? My first thought, when she proposed that bonehead plan, was that the Buffy talking to the scoobys was The First. Seemed like an interesting plot twist: The First replaces Buffy, to lead the group into a trap, but the group rejects Buffy's leadership, foiling it's plan. But she ended up touching things and stuff. I'm sure this will all make more sense when I've seen the next 3 eps.

I think it has, at least once. When the SiT hung herself, we saw the first as the dead SiT, but of course it could only have taken that form after she died. The only form it would make sense for it to take to talk her into killing herself is Buffy (Kennedy not being dead). I have a suspicion that the first British SiT, who ran away into the clutches of the Ubervamp, may have been influenced by FirstBuffy as well.

TRUTH.

Giles is the pillar of rationality, Anya has always been brutally blunt, and the slayerettes can be little douchebags. But I'm not willing to accept Willow, Xander and Dawn all suddenly spurning Buffy. Not after seven seasons. I mean, just a few episodes ago they all followed her blindly during her "plan" to defeat the ubervamp, who up until then was one of the toughest things they faced. Why an uncharacteristic reversal now, after seven years in the world's most lethal small town? Because Xander got an eye poked out?

No, because Buffy doesn't CARE that Xander got his eye poked out.

She's no longer acting like their friend, always standing by to save them from danger.

She's acting like a general, perfectly willing to send her friends into the jaws of death if it will benefit their cause.

Fuck, I wouldn't follow her either.

But... isn't their "cause" the prevention of the end of the world?

Sure. But Buffy doesn't seem to have a clue how, exactly, to prevent the end of the world. All she has is wild hunches and impulsive decisions that end up costing people's lives.

I don't think this was a "cowardly" decision from the potentials or the Scoobies. Any and all of them would probably be willing to die to prevent the end of the world. But they don't seem to be willing to die for no good reason, which is what Buffy is currently asking them to do.

The first thing I thought of was the ring. I'm sure it will end up being the source of his super power. Maybe the mark it leaves will prove instantly fatal to the ubervamps.

Hmm...I think this episode showed a shift in the characters we have grown to love over the past 7 years. Buffy has obviously been showing bad leadership skills and this was inevitable. I think its about time everyone else got the balls to tell her no. I think the potentials are showing maturity now. I am glad the characters aren't stagnating like in other shows. Things have/are happening to these characters to change them permanently, emotionally and physically.

I'm pretty sure Whedon has a good plan for where everything is going, and I for one can't wait and see.

Two things, one off and one on topic:

I love that Caleb is the ultimate Buffy villain - he's male authority personified. And I love that the theme continued with the Hellmouthed cops.

On topic, I feel a little like we're retreading the Yoko Factor from Season 4. Obviously the source of all the trouble here is that Buffy has forgotten the lesson she learned then, that what makes her the best Slayer in history is the fact that she surrounds herself with friends and a support system.

I do hope that it turns out that our heroes are Hellmouthed a little.

Yeah, all that's fine. I just wish it had been written better. This is a show that should be, and often is, confident in what it can do. Look at that scene between Willow and Xander last night. Perfect example of the heights that the show is able to reach. Where's other moments like that? Buffy is obviously closing herself off from the group - sure, I'll buy it. But what I don't buy is that the characters no longer can reach out to each other on a personal level - talk about their hopes and fears, play Jenga. Basically, be friends - because, well, they are friends. Instead, everyone in the group is confused, lots of dramatic pauses are given, and everyone gives speeches instead of having conversations. Where's the normal conversations between Willow and Buffy? Why isn't Giles playing Dad to Buffy anymore? It's fine that these things aren't happening. But you've got to give us realistic reactions to what is happening. Willow: "Buffy, why are you acting so cold towards everyone?". Giles: "Your invasion plan didn't work. What about proceeding this way." Buffy: "Willow, we're having you use the magic smack a lot lately. Are you ok with that?" Xander: "Wait. So Anya won't come visit me in the hospital because we had a fight?" Just bad writing and unmined possibilities.

P.S. Do we get a new episode next week, or is it two weeks until the next?

We're new episodes til the end. And I totally buy Giles' reaction, more than Willow's or Dawn's. Giles has shown in the past that he can get really pissy with Buffy, and I think that he lost all trust in her after the Spike thing - it's like she is making the same mistakes she did with Angel in Season 2, and that's a really personal thing for him.

So it seems like Caleb's an evil human with superpowers. Wonder if Buffy would have a problem killing him, being that she always makes a huge point of not killing people.

I see what you are saying Kev...but I do think that a lot of the things you mentioned are addressed in the character relations. Giles is sort of an outsider now. Buffy said before she doesnt need a watcher, she basically pushed him aside. I agree with the willow thing. She has been randomly asked to use magic (even on Angel!) even though we know she has a problem. Although in the show's defense, early in this season they did deal with that issue of willow going back into the black arts as a dangerous thing.

Also, I think the creators of the show are trying to show buffy go on a power trip and forget her support system, granted it has been done before but not necessarily on the same scale or with the stakes being so high.

I find it interesting though how Buffy has been more or less a failure after the death of her mom. being the heroine of the show, thats something you really wouldnt expect, but i guess thats why Whedon is so great. Just random thought.

Oh, and if i didn't follow the real world happenings behind the scenes on this show, I would have assumed Eliza Dushku would take over the show come next year.

I also hope Angel's return to Sunnydale will be meaningful and handled with care. Faith's return was sorta dirty.

Just watched it again, and I just can't get my head around this episode. Caleb must have some kind of influence on Buffy, but I can't quite figure it out. I haven't agreed with alot of B's decisions this season, but I can't imagine her coming in and just insisting that they all go back to the winery.

Does it seem like Caleb has some spell that inspires fear, or sucks confidence out of people (or women, just to keep with the theme)? Looking at the winery battle, I'd estimate him to be about as strong as Adam, ie. stronger than an ubervamp, but not as strong as Glory. When Buffy kicked him at the winery, she seemed to get a pretty good blow in. The fear she feels in his presence seems a little out of proportion. I mean, sure, he'll kick her ass--she couldn't do much to Adam without the Matrix Spell--but she could probably hold her own if she'd let loose the juice on him.

A lot of really good stuff buried in here, the Xander/Willow scene being the most obvious example. Anya's thing about the makeup sex, Faith and the SiTs vs. Cops, Andrew glaring at Faith as she eats his hotpocket, just about any moment with Faith (Dushku is really impressing me this time around). It's impossible to really judge these episodes overall until after the season has ended. Right now, we know it's 4 from the end, so we're expecting maximum bang for the buck from each one, when they're planting an overall storyline. It may seem better in retrospect a few months from now.

Yah ask me, Dawn is the Big Bad.

You know I felt from the beginning of the end so to speak, that dawn being the "key" or pure energy would mean something in the end. I always thought that buffy will use her to defeat the first, in the process destroying dawn's human form...hence Michelle Trachtenberg's "choice" to move on from the show and having no interest in spin offs.

Did anyone else catch the California in-joke (or a very subtle plot point)? The church where Caleb found the secret room is in Gilroy, CA. This is the "Garlic Capital of the World" where they have a major garlic festival every year.

Those crazy writers....

HA!
garlic festival!?
awsome!

I thought it was an alright episode... tho it could have been better it had its moments.

Why hasn't the first impersonated Tara yet?
or does the actress not want to come back?

Amber Benson's people couldn't come to an agreement, financially, with Fox's people. Or something like that, financial bullshit, noone's really sure of the details. It's pretty obvious that she was supposed to be in Conversations With Dead People. Sucks, but whatchagonnado?