Confessions of a Buffy Addict

Wow, what a great way to start, with 'Hush'. You are a lucky little Bowler, my friend.

For me, Buffy began because of my ex, who watched the show a lot. Not religiously like me and the creetch to now, but enough to warrent some interest from me. I was the same way, thinking the show was just a crappy spin off from the movie version, but I wasn't watching anything prestigious like 'ER' or anything.

I came in towards the end of the 3rd season, but I really didn't start watching full time until end of 4th/5th season. Damn what an addicting show this is.

Thanks to the wonder of a region-free DVD player, I've now seen all of Season one and two, with three on the way next month.

Good for you Bowler, I'm glad you've joined the ranks. Long live Buffy.

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If you want blood...You got it

I started watching it because of my ex...as in, I just moved to Houston after we broke up, it was on, I didn't have cable, and was too tired to go out.
*blink* Wait, this isn't a bad ripoff of a bad movie....

I know you folks will kill me, but here goes:

I don't get Buffy.

We've tried to watch it on several occasions, but it just seems so...I dunno...I just don't see what all the hoopla is about. It seems, well, average.

Maybe I'm too old or something...

Maybe you're very selective about your viewing, so what's average to you is, to everyone else, top notch characters and writing?

Never really sat down and watched this, watching the first three seasons online right now. One thing that has continued over from casual viewing is how the fights and the vampire henchmen, anytime they appear, might as well be stock footage. I dislike the vampire design, and I hope that I never have to see a stuntwoman kickbox again. The Sleepwalkers-style faces hide all expressiveness, and the show's insistence that vampires have no souls and deserve nothing but death is creepy, and hopefully short-lived, because of course the interesting villains have to be more than cyphers in masks, a la Spike and Drusilla.

After the last decade, it was interesting to see a scene where the entire group stands around while Buffy tortures a vamp on a pool table to get information.

But it effectively communicates the stress of being a superhero. I don't know what the metaphoric high school counterpoint to that is (just being a teen, I guess). The two times for dramatic effect Gellar has broken down and referred to being only 16 really worked. And the group dynamics do too. I'm at the point where they're getting complicated. Everyone has a former or dead crush, and/or a current love. Jenny Calendar just died. I'm taking a break because the plot descriptions ahead all sound like Monster of the Week episodes, and I wish they weren't. I feel I can't skip them because I'll miss character development with the central relationships.

I know it's a long ways off, but stuff like the meta-ness of the Dawn character (I have watched a few episodes in a row around the time that happened) is what's most awesome to me. Things that are at once playful, metaphorical, and dramatic.

Yeah, stick with it. The only episode you have left to go in season 2 that's completely worthless is "Go Fish".

A decent show that got better as it went a long. SMG was fine in the role, but the supporting cast really bumped this show up to something special.

As for Angel, I've only seen the last season (which was awesome) but have never really felt any desire to watch any of the previous 4.

Do yourself a favor and watch the previous 4.

For one thing, you missed the incredible evolution of Wesly Wyndham Price. Probably the best character arc I've seen on a tv show ever.

Alanthar: Seasons 2 and 3 of Angel are really good. I prefer 3 over 5, actually, but I'm in the minority on that.

Felt Pelt: You have the right attitude. The end of season 2 wraps up every little thing so well that you can't skip an episode because you have to pick up all those little things. The next season perfects the high school setting, and then the next few years get into the weirdness which I'm sure you'll love. It's hard for me to remember how it was to see Dawn's appearance or "Restless" for the first time, but I can say that in hindsight everything was handled well, while continuing to be funny and good.

I bought the complete series. I stopped watching after the wannabe Lynch dream with cheese and the first reaper. I'll get back to it someday. It really stalled for me.

I'm one of those crazy people who thinks 5, 6, and 7 are the best seasons of the show, and I don't even like 6 all that much. You should really go back to it -- the fourth season is weak, but the fifth's probably the most consistent, six is quite ballsy, if thematically murky and problematic, and seven is probably my favorite overall.

I also own the complete series, but I haven't watched it in at least a couple of years.

I fucking love Buffy. And Rath, you're not crazy. I loved those seasons, too. I was initially skeptical of them turning Spike into a member of the Scooby Gang, but it ended up working beautifully.

I'm the crazy person who loves seasons 4 and 6 above all others. I'm not going to say they're the best of the series, but they're the ones that I relate to and enjoy re-watching the most.

Also, I can't believe someone gave up on the show after "Restless," which I would put in the top 10 Buffy episodes ever.

I would say that the 3rd and 5th seasons are the most consistently excellent. Glory was a big bad that never truly got the respect she deserved from the fanbase.

Aw, hell, if I had to rank'em, I'd go:
Season 3
Season 5
Season 6
Season 2
Season 7
Season 4
Season 1

Finished Season Two. Thought the sick kids in the hospital vs. generic demon episode was just as bad as the Go Fish one (sick kids in TV shows usually seem manipulative to me, and lazy). Liked the poltergeist reliving the murder of his teacher through Buffy and Angel (and John Hawkes as a janitor). Buffy's movement from kneejerk hatred of him to empathy, done very simply and broadly in three scenes, was great.

I think so far the show's like The Twilight Zone or the Outer Limits. Lots of ideas, but sometimes the execution is lacking. The season three opener started strong, got ill-advised (the homeless problem, let's address that non-allegorically), then just got odd: Buffy fighting off the owners of the means of production with a hammer and sickle, who drain the life out of young people in a demon world that travels at a different speed of time underneath a homeless shelter? (A Christian homeless shelter, they're tying it to Marx, but it's so clumsy.) Also, there's a Gandhi line ("Do you want to see my impression of Gandhi?" Kills Carlos Jacott. "Gandhi?" "Well you know, he was really pissed off.") that is like a strange warmup for the Whedon line in X2 about what happens to frogs.

But SMG's devastation, running away, and stoniness after killing Angel was perfect.

Next two episodes are pretty well constructed. Dushku's introduced.

Well, to be fair, Halle's delivery was atrocious. It was supposed to be a throwaway quip and she delivered it as if she were the Second Coming. (Picking nits: the first X-Men)

If it makes you feel better, the Season Three opener is probably the worst episode of the entire season. It gets so much better from there.

As for ranking the seasons: 3, 2, 5, 4, 6, 1, 7.

I could never pick a favorite, but I will say that Season 4 is a strong contender. We have Angel's absence, which made his cameos on the show particularly snappy, some of the best development of Spike the series saw, the introduction of Tara, and the Inititative.

Riley certainly wasn't my favorite Buffy beau, but I never got the hate for the character. I thought it was an interesting--almost necessary-- choice in the wake of Angel. I also really liked the concept of the Initiative, and it wasn't any more hokey than a single teenage girl taking on the forces of darkness. Yeah, the budget didn't really fit their vision.

Oh, and Giles really came into his own this season. His relationship with Buffy was so deftly portrayed. It's a case study in how to develop realistic rifts between heroes in genre series.

Also: Hush. One ep doesn't make or break a series. That one comes very close.

The Initiative was great, as was Riley's character arc. My only real problem with Season 4 was that it felt like they rushed the Big Bad arc. Cryptic hints and prophecies of "314" aside, Adam remained far too much of a peripheral figure for the entire season only to rear his ugly head in the last 3 or 4 episodes. And, as mentioned, the budget simply did not meet their vision, although I can forgive that on a TV show.

I'm forgetting there are people reading the forum that are still in the process of watching, so keep in mind there are major SPOILERS in the discussion that follows.

I'll be the first to point out that the pacing was flawed. I do think, however, Adam's peripheral nature only added to what the writers were saying about masculinity. If he had become a threat any sooner, Riley's courtship, Buffy joining the Initiative, the death of Lindsay Crouse, it would have had less of an impact., as Buffy's (and later Riley's) fears of the Initiative's basic premise were confirmed.

I also think a number of external factors, such as Seth Green's unexpected exit, probably screwed up the works a bit, but as the Dollhouse thread proves, that shouldn't be a consideration.

You have to admit though, this moment was pretty cool

YES! The season 4 big bad fight. Or as I like to remember it, the season the matrix came out.

I have to admit that the final fight in Season 4 earned one of my very few verbalized "Hell, yeah"s.

Season 4 is very underrated. The Initiative arc was fairly decent for what it was, but the stand-alones this season were stellar. "Hush", the Faith two-parter, "Superstar", and "Something Blue" are some of the best of the whole series.

This show did the Dark Phoenix saga (Willow in lieu of Jean) better than X3.

Was "Beer Bad" as bad as everyone saw it is?

Surprised on the Season 4 love here. I got the impression Season 4 was out of place because of the Sci-fi elements brought in by The Initiative.

I'm a heart-of-stone kinda guy, but I'm not ashamed (well, maybe a little) to admit the s5 finale came close to making me well up like a tiny tiny baby.

I kind of like "Beer Bad": "Foamy."
I thought it was less out of place in Season 4 than Season 6 (what with the ice rays and jet packs and such).

As opposed to Ted the android? Or Robot-Moloch?

By the same token, the show did Power Corrupting Into Evil (Faith in lieu of Anakin Skywalker) better than the SW prequels.

The villains on Buffy always struck me as poorly characterized, in sharp contrast to the remarkably developed main cast. The Initiative arc seemed like a low point for this. It was a remarkably goofy depiction of military life and authority. I probably wouldn't give a shit if I hadn't been in the service, but watching two MP's arrest civilian Ethan Rayne in a downtown motel room had me rolling my eyes.

I don't think it was just you. In order to make Buffy and company the heroes, they had to make all others in that realm idiots.

But isn't a hero only as good as the villain? In order to make Buffy and company the heroes, they should have beefed up their rogues gallery. That way, when Buffy fucked them up, she'd really look like a badass.

True, but they didn't build up the hero for that to work though. Buffy, and not really her fault, is a formerly and still somewhat vapid high school student with all the lack of grasp of strategy and tactics that that implies.

If the villains had been built up more, then the Master would have snapped her neck or drained her completely at the end of the first season. She was the one that wanted to lone wolf it, and look where that got her.

Yeah, I think the events of Season 7 certainly proved that.

Buffy is a real poor leader.

Can someone explain how a bunch of untrained Slayers can take out dozens of Torak-Hans, when just only one of them earlier seemed such a challenge.

Who says they all had the same strength? Perhaps the original Torak-Han was the best the enemy had. Plus, Willow unlocked the power of the scythe with her witchy mojo and gave all the potentials supercharged slayer midichlorians.

I wonder how this excerpt from Fray fits into the season seven finale and the season eight comics:




Notice how there's no mention of any other slayers?

Re: Felix's Question

Because Joss said so. That's the sum total of how much he tries to tell a consistent story. He'll sacrifice it to make something "cool." Even if it doesn't make any sense.

I'd put it in the bottom ten episodes of any show ever.

nuff said

I started watching this show two months ago, when I realized the first two seasons were on Hulu. I had seen a few Season One episodes, I think ( specifically the mantis one, the hyena one, the witch/cheerleader one, and the one in Season 2 where they find out Oz is a werewolf), so I didn't think it was anything special. And then my opinion slowly started to change as I got more and more addicted. The turning point, where the show turned from amusing to brilliant was probably the two-parter Surprise/Innocence, followed by Passion, I Only Have Eyes For You, and Becoming, Parts I and II. I'm midway through Season Five now, and it just keeps getting better, almost no weak episodes in the bunch. Well, Triangle sucked. OTHER THAN THAT, THOUGH. Season 1 was run-of-the-mill, the show was just finding itself, which it sort of did a little bit in Prophecy Girl, but not fully until those episodes I mentioned. Season 2 is hard to grade, because it becomes the great Buffy the Vampire Slayer, but there's enough Monster-of-the-week in the mix to make it dull. Season 3 is the best full season I've seen, featuring a great plot, the show's best villian, and the show's OTHER best villian.
Sure, Faith is great, but can't we all acknowledge the wonderfulness of Mayor Richard Wilkins III? He's a parody of traditional "family man" values, projecting a 1950's Father Knows Best Exterior, with a twisted, ruthless interior. And amazingly, under that, an actual almost fatherly love for Faith. I mean, he's even lead to his death because Buffy taunts him about Faith.
Speaking of Faith, I kind of hated her in most of Season 3, until the end. The four-episode, interseries arc on Season 4 of Buffy and 1 of Angel, however, was an intense concentration of awesome.
Season 4 had its moments. And other moments. And the Cheese Man.
Season 5 has, so far, been awesome. I just watched I Was Made to Love You. Jeez...when Buffy comes into her house, and fins her mother sprawled out on the sofa.

Get ready for the best ep of that season. And have your hanky ready.

It's interesting because, by Season 5 of Angel, it was pretty clear that Angel Investigations was up against something--Wolfram & Hart--that it couldn't possibly hope to defeat. They were outmanned and outsmarted with the resultant casualties you would expect. In fact, the greatest blow Angel Investigation ever struck concluded with (SPOILERS FOR THE UNINITIATED) them trapped in an alley with the hordes of hell about to attack and, if you read the "After the Fall" series, being dragged into Hell with the rest of Los Angeles. So, in that sense, "Angel" very much became the antithesis of that aspect of "Buffy".

Damn, the rebirth of this thread makes me want to bust out my "Buffy" and "Angel" DVDs.

What are you talking about? His series tend to be more consistent than most, with callbacks to earlier episodes and plot points and themes that play out over the course of multiple seasons. Whedon has his weaknesses like every writer, but narrative consistency isn't really one of them.

I haven't read Fray, but doesn't that take place waaaay in the future? In the panel that Barry posted, it sure seems like the story is being told as if it were a legend or tall tale. These things tend to be elaborated upon and streamlined over time. It absolutely makes sense that the legend wouldn't account for the details, but would focus on the single hero at the heart of the story.

Plus, it does mention that she probably had allies.

Not to mention that, per Season 8, Buffy loses Slayers at an egregious rate. At some point in the future, it's quite possible that Buffy will be the only Slayer left to close the door on magic.

As for the villains making poor decisions... well, welcome to the world of superheroes. That's just how things work: your villain is incredibly powerful, but has crucial flaws that allow the hero to prevail.

The rogues gallery is a pretty impressive one, I'd say, but I guess I go more for interesting villains than near-infallible ones.

The Spike/Drusilla/Angelus team was incredibly fun to watch and they did inflict some real damage (Jenny's death being the most notable), Glory and Caleb were both unnerving in their respective insanities and all-powerfulness, the Mayor was a blast, the nerds of doom were practically a red herring. In fact, I'd say the only season that suffers for its villains is the fourth one, but it has enough personal drama going on for the main cast that it's still pretty great.

Keep thinking that Mark Metcalf wasn't great as The Master. His delivery (and alright, some of Joss' dialog) made what SHOULD have been a very generic villain something special.

It also resulted in one of my favorite Buffy lines: "You have Kool Aid mouth."

In the commentary, he mentions that the turok-han couldn't all be as strong as the first, otherwise they would win. Thus, they end up weaker. How is that being consistent?

Just because he may be consistent elsewhere, doesn't mean he is being consistent here.

Watch the episodes where she takes on the lone turok-han, and then Chosen. Because that panel has little to do with what actually happens. Especially given that magic didn't disappear.