Great Westerns - Page 2

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelM 

I don't get the hate for YUMA, but I guess it's very YMMV. I thought APPALOOSA was very much case of the parts being greater than the sum. I found it very "meh," and only the very ending helped lift it.

Look at the thread.  No one is hating on Yuma, and Appaloosa is not being canonized.

I think the parts of Appaloosa are better than the whole of Yuma.  But neither are the best western of the modern era.  If you disagree, then HOWTHEFUCKDAREYOUASSHOLE.  This is serious shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

Look at the thread.  No one is hating on Yuma, and Appaloosa is not being canonized.

 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk Mansleeve 

I've never seen Appaloosa, but James Mangold couldn't direct his way out of a hatbox.  The man defines cinematic mediocrity and continually fails to utilize the fantastic talent he somehow seems to attract with each new film.

 

It was also called "largely forgettable," which I guess doesn't really count as hate. So yeah, I was overstating things.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Schwartz 

 

I think the parts of Appaloosa are better than the whole of Yuma.  But neither are the best western of the modern era.  If you disagree, then HOWTHEFUCKDAREYOUASSHOLE.  This is serious shit.

 

Was my response that vociferous? I just included a "YMMV" and a pretty innocuous thought on APPALOOSA.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elvis 

7 Magnificent Westerns (That Deserve More Love)

 

1. RED RIVER (1948) d. Howard Hawks -overshadowed by Hawks later Westerns, this may very well be his best; a brilliant turn from the Duke

2. THE LAST SUNSET (1961) d. Robert Aldrich -tense psychological Western, with a final showdown influencing Leone in the staging

3. MAN OF THE WEST (1958) d. Anthony Mann - Top shelf Coop, with a climatic gun battle that rivals OPEN RANGE

4. THE BIG COUNTRY (1958)) d. William Wyler - Peck is at his noble best, Chuck Heston is at his most dickish and a fistfight between the two that inspires THEY LIVE 

5. LAST TRAIN FROM GUN HILL (1959) d. John Sturges - tense and unrelenting psychological Western; Sturges best foray into the genre

6 ONE-EYED JACKS (1961) d. Marlon Brando - cold-blooded revenge flick

7. THE GREAT NORTHFIELD MINNESOTA RAID (1972) d. Philip Kaufman - Duvall's scuzzy, crazy Jesse James is the antithesis of Brad Pitt, and probably the most unique potrayal of the legend

I'm adding all of these to my queue if they're available.  I just recently got in The Hunting Party, which I hadn't heard of before.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Xagarath Ankor 

What, no other fans of Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid?

As far as others go: Wild Bunch, Unforgiven, TGTBATU, Assassination of Jesse James, El Topo (technically), Rio Bravo.

Tombstone's great fun, but not great film-making.

Glad someone mentioned El Topo.

I'm going to try and focus on ones not mentioned.

I kind of lean a little heavy on the spaghetti side

Sergio Martino's Mannaja: A Man Called Blade is a blast, just get ready to hear the theme song a bunch.

Corbucci's The Mercenary with Franco Nero and Jack Palance.

Fulci's Massacre Time

Margheriti's Vengeance

Monte Hellman's The Shooting with Jack Nicholson, Millie Perkins and Warren Oates. I think the cast along makes this worth a watch.

I Shot Jesse James, not Fuller's best but worth a watch.

Edgar Wright's A Fistful of Fingers. This one may be hard to find, but if your a fan of Wright it should be hunted down.

The Last Pistolero is my favorite short film and should be easily found on youtube. It was release by Blue Underground on DVD years ago Django.

We shouldn't forget Cannibal: A Musical.
 

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bob_the_Gambler 

Glad someone mentioned El Topo.

 

I'm going to try and focus on ones not mentioned.

 

I kind of lean a little heavy on the spaghetti side

 

Sergio Martino's Mannaja: A Man Called Blade is a blast, just get ready to hear the theme song a bunch.

Corbucci's The Mercenary with Franco Nero and Jack Palance.

Fulci's Massacre Time

Margheriti's Vengeance

 

Monte Hellman's The Shooting with Jack Nicholson, Millie Perkins and Warren Oates. I think the cast along makes this worth a watch.

I Shot Jesse James, not Fuller's best but worth a watch.

Edgar Wright's A Fistful of Fingers. This one may be hard to find, but if your a fan of Wright it should be hunted down.

 

The Last Pistolero is my favorite short film and should be easily found on youtube. It was release by Blue Underground on DVD years ago Django.

 

We shouldn't forget Cannibal: A Musical.
 

 

Mannaja is farking outstanding.  Great fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MichaelM 

 

 

Was my response that vociferous? I just included a "YMMV" and a pretty innocuous thought on APPALOOSA.

 

Nah, I was just fucking around and posting drunk.

This list lacks Boetticher, and now that all seven of his Randolph Scott westerns are finally available on home video there's no excuse. Ride Lonesome.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elvis 

7 Magnificent Westerns (That Deserve More Love)

 

1. RED RIVER (1948) d. Howard Hawks -overshadowed by Hawks later Westerns, this may very well be his best; a brilliant turn from the Duke

Holy God yes! It's arguably Hawks' best film & I'd put it behind The Searchers as the best Wayne western. Hawks turns what is essentially a pulp cattle drive tale into a pre-Milius Odyssey featuring an archetypical battle of wills between a young Montomery Clift (in proto-Tom Cruise mode) & a searingly dangerous Wayne.

Goddamn, I love this movie.

Budd Boetticher needs to be represented here. He, along with Anthony Mann, bridged the gap between Ford/Hawks and Peckinpah/Leone. Start with 7 Men From Now or Ride Lonesome or The Tall T (Elmore Leonard fans would do well to note that this was the first successful adaptation of his work).

Also, MichealM, to add to the list Schwartz gave you (all of which are dead on), there's also Dead Man, The Shooting, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, El Topo, Three Burials of Meliquedes Estrada, Wild Bill and the entire run of HBO's Deadwood. I don't know that all of those would fall under what you personally consider "serious" westerns, but they're all fantastic (and with the exception of Wild Bill) essential.

Also, see all of those you listed as unseen, stat. Especially The Wild Bunch. I'm biased, since it's my favorite movie ever, but it's unarguably one of the best American films ever made.

Finally, everyone should check out the dark pshycological 50's western No Name On The Bullet, staring the real-life badass Audy Murphy, which is on Netflix instant right now. Fantastic film.

Got your back, Z. Three posts up.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Z.Vasquez 

 

Also, MichealM, to add to the list Schwartz gave you (all of which are dead on), there's also Dead Man, The Shooting, McCabe and Mrs. Miller, El Topo, Three Burials of Meliquedes Estrada, Wild Bill and the entire run of HBO's Deadwood. I don't know that all of those would fall under what you personally consider "serious" westerns, but they're all fantastic (and with the exception of Wild Bill) essential.

I will add those to the list. I'm hoping to make it to the library this week and start knocking through these.

I have given Deadwood a chance - loved it - but it was a borrow, and I'll probably just have to knuckle down and buy the set. I've also given THREE BURIALS a shot, and didn't like it.

But SEARCHERS, WILD BUNCH, LONG RIDERS, and BUTCH CASSIDY are all in my local library system, so will be going through those this summer.

If Rango is still in theatres in your area, I highly recommend it. Loaded with in-jokes, references, and tributes (just wait 'til you meet the Spirit of the West), and the animation is gloriously gritty.

Also on the big screen right now: Meek's Cutoff. Not for everyone, this is a deliberately paced slice-of-life account of a wagon train that gets lost on the Oregon trail in the 1840s. It's told from the point-of-view of the settlers' wives, who have no control over the situation and must stand aside while the men bicker. The moral? Don''t be ashamed to ask for directions.

Missed your mention of Boetticher, Hammer. Good lookin' out. I really want to check out Meek's Cutoff.

Corbucci's revolutionary westerns are dope as hell. Really wish Kinski wasn't dubbed in Bullet for the General. I've seen a few of the canonical Hawkes/Ford ones, obviously fantastic from a technical standpoint, but so glaringly entrenched in the settler-colonialist framework that I ended up kinda hating them. Sam Peckinpah's flicks are revolting, toxic, masturbation fodder for dumb internet nerds with rape/murder fantasies and idiot fascist jocks. John Barry's score for The White Buffalo is freaking gorgeous. That's all I know about westerns, peace.

Man, you sure called it. All those people that loved The Wild Bunch in 1969 were a bunch of internet nerds. And Roger Ebert, the film's biggest supporter at the time? Total fascist jock. And man, I never knew that my undying love for Ride The High Country meant I had rape/murder fantasties, but now that you mention it...

Eh, this guy. This aint my kinda guy.</p>

Great.  New forums troll.  And not even an amusing one.

Easy, guys. Mr. Marat may be impolitic, but strong opinions don't equal trolling. And he wouldn't be the first to accuse Peckinpah of fetishizing violence.

Oh hey, look at that.  The boards have an ignore function.  Sweet.

Peckinpah most assuredly fetishized violence.  I wouldn't take issue with that.  But casting aspersions on the audience who enjoys those films is not film criticism, and really isn't clever or helpful to the discussion.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerhead 

fetishizing violence.

Reminds me of the conversation I had with my father-in-law who loves Westerns. Correction... he loves classic non-Spaghetti (and their ilk) Westerns. White Hat VS Black Hat stuff only. No reluctant anti-heroes, moral ambiguity, rape, etc.
 

Seconded on the "hate on the movie, not its fans" thing.

Peckinpah was fucked-up and complicated and probably drunk. He was also touched by the Filmmaking Gods. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Pauline Kael wanted so fucking badly for Peckinpah to be something he wasn't. "The first fascist work of art," she called Straw Dogs. The filmmaking got her revved up; the ideas appalled her. Peckinpah not only polarized moviegoers, he managed to polarize moviegoers against themselves.

Anyway. Slight derail there.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Martin Blank 

Seconded on the "hate on the movie, not its fans" thing.

 

Peckinpah was fucked-up and complicated and probably drunk. He was also touched by the Filmmaking Gods. The two are not mutually exclusive.

 

Pauline Kael wanted so fucking badly for Peckinpah to be something he wasn't. "The first fascist work of art," she called Straw Dogs. The filmmaking got her revved up; the ideas appalled her. Peckinpah not only polarized moviegoers, he managed to polarize moviegoers against themselves.

 

Anyway. Slight derail there.

Not at all, I'd say that's steering us back in the right direction.

Since no one's mentioned it yet, I assume I'll get shit for this, but I fucking love "Open Range."  Even if the movie up until the final shootout sucked (it doesn't) the sound design during said shootout would save it completely.  I'm sick and tired of guns in movies going "pew pew," and in a perfect world Open Range would've set the standard for all gunshot sound effects in movies to come.

Appaloosa could've been great if it weren't for Renee Zelwegger's character.  I don't care about the book at all, so getting rid of unnecessary love interests would have made the movie a lot better. And yeah, I know that's like half the plot. Don't give a shit, replace the running time lost due to that story's absence and fill it with more scenes of Mortensen and Harris being awesome:  gold.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soilent Green 

Since no one's mentioned it yet, I assume I'll get shit for this, but I fucking love "Open Range."  Even if the movie up until the final shootout sucked (it doesn't) the sound design during said shootout would save it completely.  I'm sick and tired of guns in movies going "pew pew," and in a perfect world Open Range would've set the standard for all gunshot sound effects in movies to come.

Easily in the top 5 westerns ever made. Love this thing so much it hurts.

I always thought the sound design during the climax was a call-back to George Stevens' Shane where he deliberately turned the gunfire volume to 11.

It's my understanding that Open Range is unanimously loved among the few who have seen it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hammerhead 

It's my understanding that Open Range is unanimously loved among the few who have seen it.

And with good reason. It's settling nicely among my favorite westerns of all time.

OPEN RANGE features one of the best opening kills to a prolonged gunfight in any movie, Western or no.

Poor Kim Coates.

One my favorite exchanges from Open Range:

Charley Waite: [burying Mose and Tig] Be right to say some words.
 

Boss Spearman: You want to speak with the man upstairs, go on and do it. I'll stand right here and listen, hat in hand, but I ain't talking to that son of a bitch.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Soilent Green 

Since no one's mentioned it yet, I assume I'll get shit for this, but I fucking love "Open Range."  Even if the movie up until the final shootout sucked (it doesn't) the sound design during said shootout would save it completely.  I'm sick and tired of guns in movies going "pew pew," and in a perfect world Open Range would've set the standard for all gunshot sound effects in movies to come.

 

Appaloosa could've been great if it weren't for Renee Zelwegger's character.  I don't care about the book at all, so getting rid of unnecessary love interests would have made the movie a lot better. And yeah, I know that's like half the plot. Don't give a shit, replace the running time lost due to that story's absence and fill it with more scenes of Mortensen and Harris being awesome:  gold.

The day you or anyone else gets shit on this board for liking that movie is the day I book it. Which is to say that Open Range is fantastic.

Pencil me in as a fan of Open Range. Speaking of Peckinpah films, what do you all think of The Ballad of Cable Hogue? It's not The Wild Bunch, but I was pleasantly surprised when I watched it a few years ago.

Better than Boetticher and Mann? Andre De Toth's tense DAY OF THE OUTLAW. My favorite Robert Ryan.

Re: Robert Ryan, see also The Proud Ones and Inferno. And if possible see Inferno in 3D.

Here's a list for ya- Time Out London presents the 50 Greatest Westerns of All Time:

Wow, huge middle finger to Dances With Wolves from that list.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dirk Mansleeve 

Wow, huge middle finger to Dances With Wolves from that list.

Meh, I love DWW but I can see why they might not include it. It's more of historical drama & it doesn't really play with many of the traditional western tropes.

Dead Man higher than Unforgiven? Uh...no.

Also, in the years to come watch Open Range creep higher & higher in these lists. A few years ago it wouldn't have even made the top 50.

Little Big Man is far too low. Nice to see My Darling Clementine knocking on the top ten though.

But Dead Man at #6? And no Fort Apache?

The Wild Bunch and The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly are too low on the list.

The Missouri Breaks should be nowhere near this list.

Noteable exclusions:

Jeremiah Johnson (it's absence makes this list invalid)

Destry Rides Again (seriously, wtf?!)

The Long Riders

Silverado

I very much would've liked to have seen Jeremiah Johnson shot to Milius' script, perhaps by Milius himself.

The selection of WAGON MASTER over anything from Ford's more famous Cavalry trilogy does get the eyebrow raise. I'll have to give it a reevaluation. Do like Aldrich's representation of VERA CRUZ and the very underrated revisionist ULZANA'S RAID.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fat Elvis 

Better than Boetticher and Mann? Andre De Toth's tense DAY OF THE OUTLAW. My favorite Robert Ryan.

Good call, El. I was just about to jump in and recommend this brilliant, atmospheric western (a rarity in that it takes place in a snowy locale). De Toth also did a series of oaters with Randolph Scott -- not as accomplished as Boetticher's, but moody and interesting.

Monte Hellman's two existential westerns starring Jack Nicholson, THE SHOOTING and RIDE IN THE WHIRLWIND, are also favorites of mine.

I came across a very cool post on the IMDb, by someone using the name tieman64, connecting the De Toth/Scott film CARSON CITY to Kubrick's THE SHINING.

For anyone interested in seeing CARSON CITY, the film is available thru the Warner Archive.

Tieman64:

"But what's interesting for me is the presence of a short "Carson City" segment in Stanley Kubrick's "The Shining". Though the segment's audio can't be heard, the snippet in question involves talk and allusions to "punch ups", "bar room brawls", "alcoholism", "jail", "new job interviews" and "newspapers", all of which resonate with moments in "The Shining". Indeed, the characters even mention another called A. Jack Davis, which recalls "The Shining's" Jack Torrance.

Filled with intricate rhymes, mirroring patterns and breadcrumbs, "The Shining's" links with "Carson City" don't stop there. Sync "Carson City's" audio with the segment of Toff's film shown in Kubrick's, and weird synchronicities turn up, like characters on the audio answering telephones in Kubrick's film, or the mentioning of A. Jack Davis coinciding with a stack of magazines titled Avis. Visual symmetries abound too, like "Carson City's" on-screen cowboys mirroring a pair of middle management types in Kubrick's film. Then there's the fact that "Carson City" and "The Shining" take place in neighbouring states, and that Jack Torrance spouts Johnny Carson's catchphrase toward the end of the film. Mostly, though, Kubrick's interest in "Carson City" seems to stem from its cocktail of business cartels, social contracts and servant lapdogs ("Carson City" even has a bald, Kubrickean butler of sorts). It's no surprise that "Carson City's" criminals are a classy lot called the "Champagne Bandits". In "The Shining", like the real world, no one sees blood being spilt, and you're far more likely to be robbed – with civility of course - by invisible men and fountain pens."

As always, poor For A Few Dollars More has been overlooked yet again.  While all three are flatout classic, it has always been my favorite of the "Man With No Name Trilogy".

Shame on you all!!!

Forty Guns should be higher, that's one of the greatest westerns I've ever seen. Stanwyck is just tremendous. Johnny Guitar is really a unique western, Crawford and McCambridge take centre stage, their antagonism is one long catfight without a payoff. Borgnine and Hayden's punchup is the best even if most of it occurs offscreen.

Death Rides A Horse(No mention?)

Cain's Cutthroats(Bloodiest western i have seen)

The Wild Bunch

The Magnificent Seven

For A Few Dollars More

The Great Silence

The Outlaw Josey Wales

Hang 'Em High

Once Upon A Time In The West

Heaven's Gate

Death Hunt

The Searchers

Hannie Caulder

Outlaw Josey Wales

High Plains Drifter

Shane

The Good, The Bad and The Ugly

High Noon

The Searchers

Not enough love for Silverado on this list. Just a wonderful little movie that is kind of full of western cliches, but somehow pulls it off in a very rousing way. In addition, came along in a period where there were very few westerns being made period, and none which were good.

As I was reading through the list I was thinking "What, no-one defending Dances with Wolves?" just a few posts ago. I think a movie that at the time it came out was fantastic, but became weighed down by its own (and Costner's) reputation. Still a fine (if overlong) film.

Never a big fan of the old time westerns, but Rio Bravo was a great one.

Also love with all my heart For a Few Dollars More and The Good, the Bad and the Ugly, but for some reason never thought much of Fistful of Dollars and was not as impressed with Once Upon a Time In the West to the point I never really went farther into Leone's catalog.

(I'd maybe argue in favor of any Clint Eastwood western at all, I'm not sure any of them are bad, though I never thought much of Pale Rider. )

And finally, can't believe no-one has brought up Blazing Saddles...yes a comedy but also a Western, that so accurately skewered the genre as to nearly kill it. (And probably higher up on my list of favorite movies than just about any of the others listed here.) 

On a side note, Ebert just put up a link on twitter to an online doc about Warren Oates.

http://www.dangerousminds.net/comments/cool_documentary_on_warren_oates_who_died_30_years_ago_today

I think enough times past now that I may be able to finally rewatch Dances With Wolves baggage-free. I get the feeling I'd get a lot more out of it at 35 than I did at 13

Dances with Wolves isn't any better now than it was then.