Post-Release Matrix Reloaded Discussion - Page 3

I was thinking that until they cut to Matrix-vagina. Then I was just weirded out.

Amazing. Just mindblowing in every way. I love that I was thrilled, challenged, and left with a million questions and things I wnat to better understand.

Yes, the rave is horrid. It would have sucked had it been a third of as long as it was. Morpheus's speech was bad, shot bad, written bad, and scored bad. The kid who sweats Neo was the needed replacement for Tank as designated atrocious actor.

Those are the extent of my gripes. A few slight miscalculations that in no way impact my love of this film.

I must give credit first to Keanu Reeves, because I think he's going to be overlooked n favor of debates on philosophy, FX, story, etc. I usually really dislike his performances. I've been harsh about him.

But he owns this film. His Neo the first time was the clueless, confused young man that he does a fine job playing. This time he is The One and he acts it. Its in his demeanor, its his voice, his looks, his body language. And that's without even factoring in the fact that he did all of that fighting himself and as good as trained martial artists. It added so much. Really, I think this is a great great great performance.

I loved most of the philosophy, and I didn't completely grasp all of it I'm not ashamed to say. But I like that. I appreciate that with $300 million they still had the balls to tell their story, lecture at the audience, and have an abundance of brains.

I loved the Architect and those revelations. I loved the origin of the Oracle. I thought Merovingian was awesome as the sort of "King of the Matrix".

The Twins! Very very cool. Great look, and in theit little moments I thought they were both hilarious and just wonder characters. "Do run along" and "We're becoming agitated. Yes we are." Just cool.

The action was unbelievable, and I really don't know when I've seen better effects. Yeah, at times you could tell they are effects but so fucking what?? It was just astounding in so many places.

I loved how the human characters kept playing up the importance of choice, yet Merovingian's whole speech was designed to discourage that possibility. In the end choice is what saved Neo and Trinity. Was Merovingian's purpose to discourage choice so as to complete the return of the One to the source?

Now, a few questions that I encourage anyone to help with:

*How did Merovingian change the house around and suddenly have Neo way outside the city? Does he just have the ability to change the Matrix at will?

*Neo was supposed to merge with the source or something at the end but refused? Is that what we're supposed to understand?

*Some have said that the Architect's revelations discount Morpheus's faith. I loved how he defended his faith. I don't necessarily believe that this issue is laid to rest. Neo now has new powers it would seem and could still turn out to be the prophesized One who defeats the machines. It might not be in the same way, but a higher power is still guiding Neo it would seem. Still, I loved how the Architect seemed to parallel a scathing indictment of religion. That it is a tool of control, a false sense of hope that ultimately is useless. I think this view is going to be proven wrong by Neo, but its very cool.

Well, I loved it, and I look forward to others helping to clear up the different questions posed by the film.

I think we can all definitely say Zion was not destroyed, at least not yet. I've read many places people chiming in saying it was a fleet of five ships. That's one question of a million answered.

When Neo meets with the Architect and reacts to what he's being told, six other Neos on the screen react. Therefore I would think all the other 'One's were Neo (anagram of One). Which might also explain how the Oracle knows everything that will happen. I really don't think she's a precognitive machine, but a program that's run with every version of the Matrix and has seen this all before with Neo six times. I think Neo himself is a program.

Merovingian is most likely a program. An obsolete one destined for deletion like Smith. I don't think he was ever the One, since he screams at Neo about surviving his predecessors.

I must admit..........

Keanu Reeves is perfect in this role. He still has those dead eyes and surfer voice, but there's an otherworldly quality to his demeanor, which works perfectly in the Wachowski's conception.

And when he put's on the shades (blocking out those doll eyes), he really beefs up his stage presence. wink

I guess because Neo chose not to have the Matrix reloaded, that's where the revolution will come in.

I really liked the movie.

I thought the freeway scene was simply amazing. I thought the fight scenes (while I do agree with Tony that he could have finished them off a lot quicker) were really cool to watch too. I actually made exclamations during much of it (you know, the usual HOLY SHIT! and so forth) The flying was very well done too.

I liked the philosophy. I did think the dialogue scenes went on for a little too long for those who came to see action. It's like big ass action scene and then a loooong explanation of philosophy. It was needed to explain a lot but it will be hard for some to accept. The scene with the Architect was brilliant.

Agent Smith is just fucking cool.

The twins - I wanted to see more, I wanted to see Neo fight them, but still, they were pretty cool too.

The french guy - I was lost. Completely. I came away thinking he was just a pompas ass, and don't really know if he said anything I need to remember for the third film.

I left the theater thinking Zion was destroyed. I guess it was not, but I really believed it was. "When they got past the first line of defense it was a slaughter" Or something like that.

Overall I liked it quite a bit.

8.5/10

* And when they showed Freddy vs Jason trailer, it got jeers and some people yelled out insults about it. That made me angry.

I have one question. Did I see it wrong, or did the twin in the car (the one fighting with Morpheus) shoot at the agent who ripped off the top of the car?

Why did he do this?

Are the french guy and his twins enemies of the agents as well as the resistance?

Ok. I was planning to avoid the boards for a bit (since I never add anything important and such), but damn...

I haven't been this riveted by a film since the first one. The level of philosophical contemplations gave my brain an orgasm while my eyes devoured every scene like zombielust. Freakin' wow. How can Neo manipulate the machines in the real world? Whereas I expected it (and I think most people did), I was blown away. I can't wait to find out. My guess is that somehow Neo is still connected and able to control things through the Matrix even when he's not booted up.

The problem spots for me were: One, the orgy at the beginning... whereas seeing breasts is nice, what the crap does it have to do with anything in the film? It sort of made me imagine that the people of Zion were mindless creatures driven by animal instinct and thus deserved the massacre coming to them.

The next point is: why didn't we get to see Zion die? It seemed like there were some attempts at emotional arrousal, but they fell short in the midst of the action. I think it would have been a lot more crushing for the audience to understand that the scant remainder of the human race was just wiped out, rather than just hearing about it second hand.

So, amazing film. Some problems. Rating: 9.5
The end.

response to question: I'm pretty sure those twins and the french guy don't take sides at all. They're their own side. Since the agent was getting in the way of their little game of "kill the good-guys, recapture the keymaker," one of the twins decided to try to off the agent before the agent killed the twin's prey.

Neo says they have 24 hours until Zion is destroyed.

Zion has not been destroyed at the end of RELOADED.

The ships that went to attack the sentinels got massacred. But Zion still has 24 hours. That's where REVOLUTIONS comes into play.

I thought the Zion Neo was referring to at the end was in fact the whole human race, because according to the architect, by not choosing to reload the matrix, he is dooming them all to die. I guess it would all depend on whether Zion really exist in the first place, or if it's just another construct of the matrix.

As for Merovingian and the twin, my understanding is that they are obsolete/rogue programs that refused to be reintegrated into the matrix, so they don't exactly side with the agents. Plus they were suppose to get the Keymaker back, and the agents at that moment were interested in killing him (they referred to him as the Exile), so it's not surprising one of the twin shot at the agent.

I've got to give the Wachowski bros credit---I'm thinking about this film alot more than I did the first one.

There's quite alot of potential for REVOLUTIONS.

Can't...stop.....posting

<I'm turning into Bateman>

Theory: Agent Smith (in the guise of the Zion inhabitant) infected Neo with his cut hand. Maybe that's why he had new powers outside of the Matrix.

-Wasn't Trinity/Carrie so much more appealing in the *real world*, than the way she projects herself inside the Matrix. The chick in Zion or the Nebuchadnezzar.........I could go for that.

Fuck that butch in vinyl posing.

Holy mind fuck, Batman!

What a great fucking movie. Loved every bit of it. I actually liked the long pieces of dialog better than the action. There were portions of the burly brawl that just look too crisp to be real, that kind of bothered me.

I have one question about Neo in the Matrix. If he can stop bullets with his mind, why can't he stop someones punch or kick with his mind? This certainly would make the fights a little different. This kinda troubled me throughout the various fights involving Neo. I mean, he can fly and stop bullets, but somebody can punch and kick him and hit him with an ax? How does that work?

Other than that, Jesus Chraist! I have to see this movie again. I love the end when Neo stops the squidies. Great possibilities for Revolutions.

I'm still not sure about this. Neo made his 24 hour statement BEFORE the Neb was destroyed. We don't know how long he has been in a coma before being picked up by the other ship. That captain or council member sure made it sound like Zion was destroyed. Slaughter was the word he used.

When he said *slaughter* , he was talking about the ships sent from Zion, which made an offensive on the sentinels.

Not sure if it was new, but it certainly didn't make me want to see the movie. In fact, I wanted to see T3 less after seeing the preview.

HellHam - yes there was a new T3 trailer - and it kicked ass! My expectations went way up.

What the MCP's speech at the end of the movie implied to me was that their whole issue with keeping humans under control in the Matrix arises from their inability to totally predict how they'll behave (how this inexorably leads to one person arising who is able to abuse the rules of the system at will I have no idea); remember, both the Architect and the Oracle take great pride in when they can predict Neo's reactions/decisions (<Oracle> I know what you're going to do before you do it & the Architect's simulated NeoBots all yelling "BULLSHIT" simultaneously, as though the Architect had a very high degree of confidence that would be his response). Neo surmises that this due to humans being able to "choose", a conclusion the Architect seems to reinforce when he states that the machines allow those humans who refuse to accept the nature of the system escape to Zion, and offering the One(s) the starkest choice imaginable, steering them to a conclusion that the machines believe that any One would *have* to pick (happily making it the predictable choice).

Even the rogue programs who no longer appear to accept direction from the Source/Architect seem to have this inherent belief/faith in following supergoals handed down from on high:

Keymaker - "this is what I was supposed to do" (paraphrased)
Oracle - again, predicting Neo's behavior, pointing him towards the Source to complete the "purging the rogue humans in Zion" cycle
Agent Smith - His whole freedom is slavery bit ("you freed me but we're not free"), wanting purpose again
Merovingian - "Even self-aware humans are slaves to causality"

The event that threw me for a loop (as mentioned in earlier posts) was Neo being able to stop the Sentinels in the "real world"; I don't really have any theories on this point yet that haven't been voiced already.

Anyway, any theories on why allowing that tiny percentage of troublemaking humans to "escape" somehow gives rise to a One every few generations? Why just one One at a time? What stops more from waking up and manipulating the system? Just how do Neo's powers work anyway?

The other thing is, what does the Architect mean when he says the Matrix enters a new iteration when Zion is destroyed and restarted? If they can just mindwipe everyone in the Matrix and start over, why don't they do that selectively to the percentage of humans that don't accept the reality of the simulation unconsciously? I wish they'd provide more detail on how all that's supposed to be carried out.

I'm just wondering what the consequences are of allowing people who don't accept the Matrix but are unaware of a rebel movement or the nature of their reality (i.e., say there was no Zion or anyone outside the Matrix to come in and explain how the machines are running things) to stay in the system. The Architect just implies it creates a total catastrophe, but I don't understand how a few people going insane (I'm just guessing that they do) causes everything to come crashing down around their ears.

I guess people who don't accept the system eventually figure out the powers and what-not that the rebels who escape eventually do, but I don't see how allowing them to unplug and physically escape the generator complex is a better option than crushing them individually like roaches in the simulation with Agents like they do normally. Zion being an inherent part of the purging cycle just seems unnecessary to me.

It's nice to see that a lot of people are having the same reaction I had. I know I shouldn't need that validation, but it feels nice nonetheless.

This is what I have been wrestling with most, the similarities between Neo and the Merovingian, and Trinity and Persephone. How she would say about the Merovingian that "he used to be just like you," and to Trinity "I envy you" before also saying that it doesn't last...almost like her husband is a cynical and embittered version of this idealistic Neo. But...would that necessitate Neo also being a program? And what of this talk of surviving Neo's predecessors? There's a disconnect there that I can't make a circuit out of yet. Great ponder material.

Bateman, never be ashamed to act like a hyperbolic schmuck. The worst thing you can do is put a mask on when what you really want (in your heart) is for your true, unadulterated feelings of excitement to come out.

I saw it last night at 10:20. After about 30 minutes of technical difficulties during the trailers, the movie came on. I was sitting there with this huge grin almost the whole time, watching in awe. It was abso-fuckin-lutely amazing. One of my friends fell asleep, he thought it was really boring. What an idiot. I loved every second of it, and im going to see it again today at 4.

After the movie, about 50 percent of the people that saw it stayed around the theater because they couldn't stop discussing the amazing thing they just witnessed. Seeing a crowded lobby 40 minutes after the movie ended warmed my heart.

Hoooooooly shit.

Maybe it's because I walked into the theater with lowered expectations. Maybe it's just because I love mindfucks and arguing about philosophy. Maybe it's because I'm a geek. But for whatever reason, this movie blew my goddamned mind. I haven't been this enthused after seeing a movie since the first Lord of the Rings movie, and I'm just absolutely in love with about 99% of the movie (that other 1% being the second half of the rave sequence and the incredibly uncomfortable pussy-cam shot).

I could sit here and pour out theories all day long, but most of my points have already been said, namely by Palantir and Saucy Jack. But off the top of my head, here's a few things that haven't been touched on much:

--The row of monitors in the Architect's room showing different Neos doesn't mean that the past six "the Ones" were all Keanu Reeves. Those were computer simulations predicting designed to predict what Neo would do or say in any circumstance. That's why sometimes the monitor Neos were pissed off, or laughing, or confused, or frightened. They were every possible outcome, which is why it was so fucking cool when every conceivable Neo made the same choice--to save Trinity.

--Zion wasn't destroyed. Trust me on this. There are shots of Zion (and fucking MECHS!) in the Revolutions trailer.

--The more I think about it, the more convinced I am that "the real world" is just another level of the Matrix. And that's so evil and twisted...I fucking love it.

--Neo is either a complete program or half-human/half-program. He's not some mystical occurance like we assumed in the first film...he's something that was designed *by* the machines, to work *for* the machines. And that's why the three big speeches in the movie (Counselor Hamman's speech on purpose, the Oracle's speech on choice, and the Merovingian's speech on causality) all directly relate to his actions in the end of the film--basically, his choice to forfeit his programming, his destiny, for the love of a human.

Neo is a program. He just doesn't know it yet.

--There is at least one other force at work in the Matrix, some force that I don't think we've seen yet. Remember how everyone died in the second Hovercraft while the "there are no coincidences" speech played out? Someone else is manipulating "the real world that's apparently not the real world after all", setting in motion a chain of events that would force Neo to choose between completing his purposing or saving Trinity's life. My only question is *who*?

--Count me as part of the "the Merovingian was formerly one of The Ones" camp.

Ack. I could go on like this all damn day.

I love this movie.

I really dug the flick...thought the visuals were every bit as amazing as I'd hoped they'd be...Wo Ping delivered on the fight choreography...and the plot definitely deepened quite a bit.

I really need to see it again just to get to grips with all the philosophy discussed though. I thought the pacing of the first hour did drag just a bit until Neo met with the Oracle. It picked back up nicely from there.

Now I gotta pick up the game today and hopefully it will flesh out the story a bit more.

Overall....not dissappointed at all !!

Loved the movie, but one question, was anyone else confused by the bitching about the soundtrack in so many early reviews? You don't hear *ANY* of that nu-metal crap in the entire film, IIRC.

The music was still spotty, tho.

I loved the 70's kung-fu cheese horns of the Burly Brawl, but some of the choral/orchestral bits that accompanied the stop motion/slo-mo was eye-rolling in its obviousness. I maintain Don Davis is an average composer and his work with Juno Reactor here did nothing to change that.

Besides, as long as the credits are, you get to hear almost the entire soundtrack anyway.

It's interesting reading this thread. No one's really stating it, but I guess it's pretty obvious by now that the world that has been pulled over Neo's eyes is not the lie of the Matrix, but the lie of there being a Matrix at all.

The idea that the Matrix was created to make us comfortable in our existences is a lie created to make Neo (who is not human at all) (in fact, there are no humans anywhere in these films)(nor are there any machines, for that matter, with the exception of the movie itself) comfortable in his 'mission' by giving him first an illusory self-awareness and then the illusion of something to fight for. However, his mission is not preordained by 'destiny' - it comes down from on high and if Neo were aware of the true nature of his mission (self-deletion), the unpredictability factor of the mathematical anomaly that he is would possibly cause him to turn his back on it.

Neo is not human. Rather, he is a virus that the system seeks to root out. However, he is a spontaneously generated virus that has arisen from mathematical instability. Thus, he is chaotic and unpredictable, difficult to track down, difficult to isolate and difficult to delete.

He is, by virtue of his random and unpredictable nature, the spontaneous evolution of a program for something previously unknown in the mathematical universe - pure choice.

In terms of lower mathamatics true 'choice', which is the same as 'unpredictability' is anathema and an inherent, or as the film states, a systemic instability that must at all costs be removed from a balanced equation to regain and retain stability. (the Architect is quite clear on this)

At the end of the day, it's not that there is no spoon - it's that there is no Matrix; there are no human farms; there are no humans - there never were any humans; they are just a fiction invented by the 'program' (at this point it becomes pointless to refer to it by that anthropocentric name) so all-encompassing that a better name for it would be the universe.

Mathematics is the self-ordering consciousness of the universe and this film reflects exactly that. It's a semantic difference and the Wachowskis are drawing this comparison which is both profound and simplistic at the same time.

This ultimately is the story of a lonely little spontaneously generated program called 'choice' who just happened to have a profoundly damaging effect on the balanced universe of the system in spite of its relative insignifigance and it's struggle to survive in spite of all efforts of the universal system to correct itself.

Another name for this film could be 'The Secret Life of Mathematics.'

Kurt Wimmer just made me feel stupid.

So are you saying that you think the story itself doesn't really exist, or that the story is simply a metaphor for the introduction of unstable choice into the ordered world of mathematics?

I saw this movie last night, and really, truly enjoyed it. I haven't been drawn into a movie like that in quite some time. It definitely takes a lot of time aside from the movie to completely wrap your mind around the events unfolding, and the best part is, despite our best attempts at formulating a working theory for all of the things occuring in this movie, the only way we're going to know the real truth is seeing the next movie. With that in mind, here's my thoughts:

1) Anyone else find it ironic that they have exactly 314 seconds to knock out the power and backup systems? (3.14=pi)

2) The Architect said that the first time around, they made the matrix perfect, and the second time they used all the atrocities of mankind, and that both were failures, right? After that they had to make it more complex, because otherwise their power-source wouldn't comply.

3) What is this 'sacrifice' that the machines are willing to make once they cut off all of humanity as a power source? Power-cannibalization?

4) The twins were great in terms of effects, although the 'ghosting' effect didn't really do much for me, because they always had the same damn look on their faces (evil, scary vampire teeth) while they were floating around.

5) The Merovignian doesn't have the ability to manipulate the matrix at will. He has 'backdoors' in his building, much like the other ones we're exposed to during the movie. His just happen to not have a hallway in between. Use a different key, get a different destination. It's the equivalent of a multiple-destination wormhole.

6) There has never been any mention of cyborgs (at least not of 'Terminator' quality) anywhere that I can remember, so how is it that the Counselor is possibly a machine? And how exactly does Smith transubstantiate himself into the real world? I don't understand how this possession could take place.

7) If Neo is infected with Smith, then Morpheus must be moreso.

8) The biggest complaint I heard from people leaving the theater was 'I waited five minutes for that?' (re: Revolutions trailer). Also, my biggest complaint was that for the first time, I had to deal with some jackass with a damn camera sitting in the row behind me.

At any rate, there was no point in this movie, except for maybe the rave scene, when I was bored during this movie. The one thing I have the most confusion about at this point is:

The matrix is the seventh version according to the Architect. Neo has dreams of his own future (or past, I guess), but are the Neos on the screens in the Architect room past visits from other versions of him, or are they probability based outcomes? If they were all past Neos, then wouldn't his genetic code have had to have been repeated in order for him to look and (basically) react the same? Doesn't that take something like 22,000 years to repeat once?

And now, I go into waiting for the winter, when we will see the Return of the King, and the end of the Matrix. Possibly the most exciting winter for movies in my lifetime.

Phoenix, as for your big question (re: the multiple Neos on the monitors), my interpretation is in my previous post.

The fact that one of the Smith clones takes over Bane's body shows exactly how this can happen. A program can overwhelm and replace a person's "self" in the Matrix...thus, when Smith picked up the phone and disappeared, it was Agent Smith's mind and personality that appeared inside Bane's body. Think of it like this...when someone is inside the Matrix, what you're seeing is actually the representation of their mind. Bane's mind went into the Matrix, but it was Agent Smith's mind that returned.

My guess is that the same thing has happened to both Counselor Hamman and Neo himself, since I think they are both programs, or at least hybrid human/programs. The science of this would be pretty damn wonky if I wasn't already 99% convinced that "the real world" is just another construct of the Matrix, in which case the boundary-jumping becomes a lot easier to swallow.

I'm not sure I understand your theory concerning Neo's nature (and that of the film's world); are you proposing that Neo is something akin to a walking Godel statement?

What effect does this film have on the part of Morpheus's prophecy about "a man born inside who could change things....the Oracle prophesized his return". Did every Matrix have this born and reincarnated One to search for?

How could Merovingian be one of the old Ones and still be in the Matrix. Wouldn't he have to give himself to the source for there to be a new Matrix at all.

I don't think Neo is a program. Unless they really go for this "everything is the Matrix", I don't think it works. He has some obviously human traits and motivations, plus we've seen him in the real world being freed and rebuilt, and living in that world.

Something I caught. When Neo and the Architect are talking, the Architect talks of a woman who was built to help understand humans and thatif he is the father, she is the mother. Neo says "The Oracle" but he just replies "please" Could Persephone actually be the woman he was referring to?

This, for me as well, is the one thing I disagree with as far as the posts so far in this thread are concerned - that the Oracle is the "mother" the Architect refers to.

The sarchastic tone in which he states "Please." definately registered in my mind as "Don't be stupid - its not the Oracle."

Also - the idea that Morpheous was wrong, and that the Prophecy was not true doesn't seem correct to me either. Even Neo is wrong about this in the end. The "prophecy" was quite true - had the One returned to the Source, the system would have "reloaded" itself, sending everyone back to 1999 (or whenever the start date was), thus ending the war for another iteration.

No - the story does exist - but it's being told to Neo and Neo alone and everything else, from the more obvious guiding influences of the Oracle and the Keymaker (who clearly states that it was his purpose to bring Neo to the cusp of his decision) to the less obvious figures of Morpheus and Trinity are all highly manipulative equations generated to bounce Neo in the direction of his ultimate self-deletion (or so the system 'hopes' (though it doesn't have true consciousness - only a powerfully sophisticated self-ordering 'instinct'.)) These characters represent 'causality' in the illusion that is being spun around Equation-Neo - causality that will hopefully (though nothing is certain because of his unique characteristic of chaos and unpredictability) bounce Neo into the drain-catch that the system 'hopes' to trap him in. The problem is that, due to the statistical enormity of the universe (or program) Neo will always evolve, no matter how many times he is destroyed - and thus must be caught and deleted over and over again - though the system, as the Architect states, is becoming very good at doing so by this point.

As, to the second part of your question - 'is the story is simply a metaphor for the introduction of unstable choice into the ordered world of mathematics?' Yes - but not the introduction of choice into the world of mathematics per se(well, yes, but more clearly ...) but into the universe, since the universe and everything in it - as the Wachowskis show over and over again - can be described entirely with numbers.

Neo is the first self-contained equation that is functional yet serves no purpose. The Councilor questions Neo - comparing him to a machine (the water-purifier) and wondering aloud what Neo's purpose might be and hoping that they will 'find out' before it's 'too late'.

The Matrix is a very prosaic retelling of the destruction of the universe due to a very human quality we call choice (the universe might call it 'chaos theory'). We as an audience are at once attracted to the idea of total order yet compelled to cheer for the underdog of choice even when it flies in the face of the ordered 'System' because it represents us in all our flaws and inconsistencies - even though we are aware deep down that we are ultimately a threat to natural order because we consciously choose to abrogate and circumvent it on a daily basis.

"The One" in Morpheus' prophecy is the last "The One" (number six), who reloaded the Matrix, then was given the ability to free a handful of humans into "the real world" before dying.

As for the Merovingian, he obviously is in control of a number of doors. It's entirely possible that the reason he was holding the keymaker was so he would always be able to escape through some sort of back door exit while the Matrix was being reloaded. That would explain his age, and his disdain for Neo and his quest.

As for Neo having human traits and emotions--that's exactly the point. The programs inside the Matrix (the Oracle, Persephone, Agent Smith) have reached a point where they have begun to emulate human emotions such as humor, anger, jealousy, and needing to find a sense of purpose. The fine line of "what makes us human?" has been blurred by sentient programs. Does Neo have human traits? Of course. Does that make him human. Not necessarily.

But I'm not just talking human traits, I'm talking that we've actually seen him freed from being a human battery, nursed back to health with plugs inside him. Unless the real world is also fake, I don't see how Neo could just be a program. All of the other "programs" in the Matrix are clearly not human with no human bodies outside.

Kurt Wimmer is lighting this thread the fuck up.

Not much to add to his points, save that I think an additional curveball or two will be introduced in Revolutions that will force us to re-evaluate this film one more time.

The more I think about it, the more genius it is.

If the lame, cliched Zion parts (except for Anthony Zerbe's talks with Neo) could be excised from this movie, this would be an instant classic.

I liked it, but this movie was just good when it could have been a masterpiece.

Things they could have changed.

- Zion was alright, but they didn't need a Rave scene, a sex scene, and a lame ass Neo worshipper who was nearly as annoying as Jar jar. Most of the actors were complete ass when it came to screen presence and delivering their lines.

- Lock needed to be ousted, or played by a REAL actor, but that wouln't have helped the god aweful lines he was given.

- If Neo is the one, how come he just can't rip shit up in the matrix? Either they had to explain that his mind wasn't completely free yet, or give him more powers.

- Some fights were there for the sake of having a fight, the wachowskis should have used their noggin to incorporate fights with a flowing plot line.

- Some of the Philosophy was a bit heavy handed. Not that I can't understand it mind you, but some of these ramblings notions about choice could have been summed up in just a few words.

- Matrix Orgasm, obviously the bros like sex, anime, kung fu, Philosophy, but do they have to have everything they like in one movie? It wasn't needed and looked cheese ball.

- With the first, Andy and Larry had a budget of only 60 million, so with that money they did everytjing in their power to make the first as good as it can get. With Reloaded they needed to treat their 300 million dollar budget like they only had 60, so when they needed to make the ellaborate FX it was there to fall back on. There was an honesty to the first, an absolute feeling that the directors trully loved what they were doing. I honestly thing the Wachowskis are bored with the Matrix now.

Other than those problems, this movie was exciting. The second half more than made up for the first, but dammit, i certainly wish it was perfect through and through.

Terminator 3 looked DAMN GOOD though! Wow!

This movie really makes you look at how systematic our universe really is, which makes you question whether or not it really is just part of some controlled system. The farther we go, the closer we get to defining everything with mathematics. It's easy to think that math is just something ingrained into nature, that it's simply the way it should be, but these movies make you reevaluate whether the universe's mathematical dependence is natural, or whether it's just been engineered.

Basically, yes. Though, as humbly as I can submit, I don't think it's a proposition. The Architect says as much. He describes Neo as an annoying 'remainder' in an otherwise elegant equation. In other words, an inexplicable remainder. He is quite clear in stating that Neo is not human but a purely mathematcial entity and he says the same about the 'minds' in Zion - that they are 'programs' or equations made unstable by the presence of Neo in the system and thus placed in the holding bin or cache of Zion until resolution of the problem. This is why the Councillor remarks that he hopes Neo's purpose becomes evident 'before it's too late. He is aware of Neo's nature and that he himself has been at least temporarily disabled by Virus-Neo. This is why he remarks to Neo that it is good that he can't sleep as it demonstrates that he is 'still human' (why would he be anything else?). What he really means by this is that it indicates the Neo still believes the illusion of his humanity (which is why he bleeds inside the illusion of the Matrix)and the goal of guiding him back to the source through designed causality is still possible.

The Architect flatly states that the presence of Remainder-Neo leads to ultimate mathematical instability in the system - thus he has been guided back to the source for his 7th deletion.

This "zion cache" is definitely the most viable possibility in my eyes, but with the Wachowskis you never know. We believed Morpheus and the Oracle in the first movie, only to have the tables turned with the second one. Who knows what will be overturned in the third movie. After reading the earlier views on the gnostic god, I'm not sure we can take everything the Architect says as the pure truth.

Someone should have died in the movie. The whole Trinity death baiting thing was a cop-out.

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SO agreed. it looks all the worse when compared to how great the last 60 percent was.

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Harry Lennix (guy who played him) is a great actor, actually, (Check him in Titus or Get on the Bus) but the character was a one-note waste of time that could've had 90 pecent of his screentime cut out and still have served the same effect.

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That's just the thing. He's not the One. He's not even completely in control of his decisions. There is no One.

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Yup. the first Neo vs. Agents fight and the fight against the Oracle's bodyguard are prime examples. Pointless. The Burly Brawl DID serve a point, however, and they made sense from then onward.

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Probably would've been better as a deleted scene on the DVD, as would most of the Zion stuff.

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Whuh? This one has one of the most elaborate stories in any recent sci-fi film. I don't think that complex type of storytelling springs from boredom.

Only problem is that all of the major characters are needed for the next one, and what's the point in killing a minor character no one cares about (like that ship that took the accidental loss toward the end.)?

Well, the Abyss resurrection scene was lame and I really wanted some big weighty loss to drive Neo for the last one. That horrible "assassin" is about as menacing as a red herring... wait.

I agree. He should've snatched her before the bullet hit, thus saving her and saving us the melodrama of her "death."

But the assassin guy is really just going to be a mere troublemaker in the "real" world, while the heavy work/resolution will be done during the Neo/Smith confrontation that will highlight Revolutions.

I don't get all the Zion hate. I dug it. And the kid as annoying as Jar Jar? Come on now, that's fanboy hyperbole. You realize that sometimes characters are meant to be annoying, right?

The rave I liked, and felt should have been longer, actually. The music was weak, I thought - not the genre, but the actual song. It needed more primal power. A heavier bass line maybe.

One thing I LOVED in this movie: how diverse Zion is. I love seeing black actors just playing PEOPLE, and getting to be everything from holy to sexual and everything in between.

So the Architect gives Neo two choices. He could delete himself and "reboot" the Matrix program back to its start point (in hopes that the "bugs" can somehow self-correct), or keep the program running and force the Sentinels to "debug" the system the hard way by deleting the Zion cache.

How exactly can a rogue program stay in the system? How can it be permanently deleted? This is alluded to in the Revolutions trailer (Neo vs. Smith III), but I don't know how it would be possible, especially after his survival after the end of Part One.